Building a Greyhawk Ruins Team [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Greyhawk Ruins Team [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrystalBlue
05-14-07, 07:50 AM So I got to thinking about a team that'll do well in the Greyhawk Ruins. Problem is...I'm not the most cheesed out person in the world. I work under the philosophy that you need to have multiple skills, not just one that you do really well. But here's my attempt at a good dungeon-crawling group...I think...

P1: Tank
P2: BDF
P3: Arcane
P4: Healer
P5: Sneaky-Sneaky
P6: Leader

And with that...I'm going to propose my first build.

Player 1: The Tank that SHOULD take most of the damage

Dwarf Battlesmith of Moriden
S:14 D:14 C:17
I:10 W:14 CH:6

1: Cleric [War and Protection] (Dwarven Armor Proficiency)
2: Cleric
3: Cleric (Endurance)
4: Cleric [Increase Constitution]
5: Fighter (Heavy Armor Optimization)
6: Fighter (Practiced Spellcaster) (Combat Reflexes)
7: Cleric
8: Battlesmith [Increase Constitution]
9: Battlesmith [Crafter Wonderous Items]
10: Battlesmith
11: Battlesmith
12: Battlesmith [Increase Constitution] (Improved Heavy Armor Optimization
13: Cleric
14: Cleric
15: Cleric
Haro
05-14-07, 08:14 AM Player 1: The Tank that SHOULD take most of the damage

Dwarf Battlesmith of Moriden
S:14 D:14 C:17
I:10 W:14 CH:6

I'd drop the dex to 10, and wear the now Open access Heavy Armor (+0 max dex) in order to free up those 4 build points. Those should most likely go to Str, or if you are concerned about skills then Int.

Also be aware that Greyhawk Ruins is most likely to be a series of dungeon crawls; what better way to tank than to become a Dwarven Defender and Defensive Stance in that 5' corridor? If a one or two level dip tickles your fancy, then keep the 14 Dex to qualify for Dodge, otherwise I would drop it...

Joe
_metz_
05-14-07, 08:34 AM If you are going to have dex, elusive target is a good option, otherwise I wouldn't bother, go Str 16.
Mommy was an Orc
05-14-07, 11:00 AM I think your build has some big issues:
You lose +2 BAB really fast for someone who isn't going to be casting Divine Power.
No power attack and really low strength score means low damage.
You can't really raise Constitution and Wisdom via the neck slot.
I'm not sure Battlesmith really gives you all that much for the cost, especially as it costs you either caster progression or the ability to gain Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery - those two alone = +4 damage per swing. If you give up the Con slot, you only do +5 damage per swing if you have a +6 Wisdom Amulet.

The big concern here is you can't just try to stand in the way and make yourself hard to hurt - you need to present enough of a threat to make them keep attacking you.

Have you looked at Warpriest at all? It gives some nice abilities, advances Cleric casting, and some of the specials are pretty interesting(especially the Inflame, Mass Heal, Fear and Heroes Feast - you can just get the Mass Heal off at 15th if you have a level in Paladin or Swashbuckler and therefore enter it at 7th)

Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 4/Cleric 1/Warpriest 9 as an example.
Timlagor
05-14-07, 11:22 AM I'd definitely do a Deepwarden/DDefender for this myself.

Be aware that the only way to take the damage is to deal the damage or really get in the way. Dungeon Crawls make it easier to get in the way but you still need respectable damage out.
evilaustintom
05-14-07, 12:05 PM One thing my group is looking at is not only a balanced group for Greyhawk Ruins, but a group CONCEPT. That can be looked at from a number of angles.

One is the role-playing angle. There is little I can say on this right now, since we’re still waiting on the rules of this campaign to be put out. However, they have already mentioned that they will use the PHII rules for organizations, so many of the Greyhawk guilds will be available to join (merchants’ guild, thieves’ guild, a certain temple, etc.). My group will probably go with just one or two of these groups.

The other is the mechanical/tactical angle. Now having a balanced party is always a concern, and having a regular group that plays together makes getting a balanced group easy. However, my group is looking to go one step further – PLAN on having the fellow PCs in their group. With this, you can go with more broad concepts. Things our group is considering are concepts like:

- Everyone in the group has ranks in Hide and Move Silently. With that, the group as a whole can be stealthy, without that one noisy fighter giving things away.

- Everyone takes at least one feat that plays off one another well. Like Wolfpack or Swarm Fighting tactics. There is a shield wall-type feat out of the CW that might work well (this is said without my gaming books in front of me).

- Everyone in the group has a fast initiative and high ranks in spot/listen, or increases everyone else’s initiative (like a marshal or guerilla warrior).

Not everyone in our group has yet to decide on which of these we’re going to go with, and some disagree on the effectiveness of some of these concepts. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Or perhaps additional ideas?

Tom Thowe
Japangirl
05-14-07, 01:23 PM Our group was originally going to be a luck-based group, with everyone taking luck feats and having two people with 1 level of cleric to get Luck and Destiny domains (I reroll, you reroll, you reroll, reroll again, etc). That kinda fell apart though when we realized we didn't actually have a full healer :(.

We don't have a concept so much anymore, but the table so far looks like: cleric/divine oracle/contemplative of Brandobaris, Charisma-based fighter/tank, and 3-4 people who can't make up their minds :-/.
Mommy was an Orc
05-14-07, 03:16 PM I think if you can guarantee the group, I'd go with something resembling an all-rogue group.

1: Half-Orc Rogue BDF - Rogue 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1
2: Wood-Elf Scout Dervish - Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dervish 6
3: Grey Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10
4: Halfling Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10
5: Human Beguiler 13/Unseen Seer 2
6: Half-Elf Cleric of Boccob 6/Ruathar 3/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 2(Domain Spontaneity for Force and Travel - for DDoors, Teleports, and Walls of Force - among other things...)

Half-Orc and Dervish do lots of damage, there are 4 near-primary casters after that, and boy is trapfinding covered...
evilaustintom
05-14-07, 04:28 PM I think if you can guarantee the group, I'd go with something resembling an all-rogue group.

1: Half-Orc Rogue BDF - Rogue 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1
2: Wood-Elf Scout Dervish - Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dervish 6
3: Grey Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10
4: Halfling Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10
5: Human Beguiler 13/Unseen Seer 2
6: Half-Elf Cleric of Boccob 6/Ruathar 3/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 2(Domain Spontaneity for Force and Travel - for DDoors, Teleports, and Walls of Force - among other things...)

Half-Orc and Dervish do lots of damage, there are 4 near-primary casters after that, and boy is trapfinding covered...
I think you need a bard level in there w/divine prankster...but I get your drift. That's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. You can even have a Cleric with the trickery domain (for Hide as a class skill), if you can't get the NONC p-class access. Perhaps throw in a marshal somewhere that boosts dex-based skills...
ThaiGQ
05-15-07, 12:49 AM Crystal Blue, for a tank, consider taking a Knight as they've got good hit points, Fort & Will saves, and some pretty good class abilities for tanking. Bulwark of Defense would probably work pretty well in an enclosed space if you're up front as it makes it cost twice as much movement to get past you. The Knight's Challenge "Test of Mettle" is also pretty good for forcing the enemies to attack you, and I'm sure the front-line low AC BDF will appreciate Shield Ally which will allow you to absorb damage for him/her. You could also combine the Knight class with Paladin or Marshall to maximize synergy for your Cha and also take on the role of team leader and/or party face. :D
magebeast
05-15-07, 01:15 AM Our group was originally going to be a luck-based group, with everyone taking luck feats and having two people with 1 level of cleric to get Luck and Destiny domains (I reroll, you reroll, you reroll, reroll again, etc). That kinda fell apart though when we realized we didn't actually have a full healer :(.

We don't have a concept so much anymore, but the table so far looks like: cleric/divine oracle/contemplative of Brandobaris, Charisma-based fighter/tank, and 3-4 people who can't make up their minds :-/.

I made up my mind ages ago.

Gish. That way I can lean on you guys for my first six levels while I buy the absolute minimum to survive till my crafting feats come online.
Sieylianna
05-15-07, 07:19 AM Everyone in the group has ranks in Hide and Move Silently. With that, the group as a whole can be stealthy, without that one noisy fighter giving things away.

As long as everyone in the group has darkvision. If you need to have a light source, you're not going to be stealthy in a dungeon.

Ed
CrystalBlue
05-15-07, 07:48 AM Well, we've been thinking it over. For some reason, my friend likes that idea of an almost all rogue group. I don't. >.< Sure, we would do well against the traps in the ruins, but we would die horribly to all the constructs and such that are also in said ruins.

I like the knight idea. I'm trying to monkey around with a few ideas for it. Get a chain and threaten a radius of 10'. That would keep people where I want them. Maybe also take Improved Trip. How about...

Human Knight
S:14 D:14 C:14
I:13 W:8 CH:12

Hmmm...it's just that that is pretty watered down for any character. I just want the dexterity for the Combat Reflexes, the strength for tripping, the intellegence for Combat Expertice and Improved Trip and the constitution for the HP. Oh, and charisma for Test of Mettle.

Damn it...that's way too spread out. Help? *whines and paws at people*
ThaiGQ
05-15-07, 08:10 AM Well, we've been thinking it over. For some reason, my friend likes that idea of an almost all rogue group. I don't. >.< Sure, we would do well against the traps in the ruins, but we would die horribly to all the constructs and such that are also in said ruins.

I like the knight idea. I'm trying to monkey around with a few ideas for it. Get a chain and threaten a radius of 10'. That would keep people where I want them. Maybe also take Improved Trip. How about...

Human Knight
S:14 D:14 C:14
I:13 W:8 CH:12

Hmmm...it's just that that is pretty watered down for any character. I just want the dexterity for the Combat Reflexes, the strength for tripping, the intellegence for Combat Expertice and Improved Trip and the constitution for the HP. Oh, and charisma for Test of Mettle.

Damn it...that's way too spread out. Help? *whines and paws at people*

I accept the challenge...sounds like fun! :D

A bit more info on the requirements and possible access though:
1. Preferred race(s)
2. Preferred classes/PrC's (I know you said your group likes the rogue party, so do you want to dip into rogue as well?)
3. Possible PrC access for the Greyhawk Ruins modules (specifically Dread Commando for the rogue group)
Mithreinmaethor
05-15-07, 08:12 AM As long as everyone in the group has darkvision. If you need to have a light source, you're not going to be stealthy in a dungeon.

Ed

In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter.
Southernskies
05-15-07, 08:13 AM With enough levels in Knight, you can dump Charisma. Dwarven Knight works for Ruins. Having a penalty just means you can't use it every combat to start with (1/2 Knight level + Cha bonus, minimum 1 per day)

Dwarf of Gendwar Argrim
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 18 (16), Int 10 (14), Wis 12, Cha 6

Knight6/Pious Templar3/Hospitaler6
3. WF
9. Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

A little feat starved, but there is room for picking a secondary feat chains (Power Attack / CombExp+Imp Disarm / Shield Specialisation+Shield Ward / Combat Reflexes+Hold the Line)
Timlagor
05-15-07, 08:33 AM In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter.

The torch makes hiding rather pointless which mere vision does not.

For a mechanically themed party I'd go with the Arcane Party.
Gish
Dragon Disciple
USeer/Trickster
Sorceror
Arcane Hierophant
Mystic Theurge.

One of them could be a Beguiler... the point is that all roles can be covered well enough.
Japangirl
05-15-07, 11:56 AM I made up my mind ages ago.

Gish. That way I can lean on you guys for my first six levels while I buy the absolute minimum to survive till my crafting feats come online.

Ah yes, that's right. Silly useless low-level gishes :P.
magebeast
05-15-07, 02:06 PM Ah yes, that's right. Silly useless low-level gishes :P.

Hey I can tank okay at first (14 HP) and second level (21 HP), and after that I can do okay damage with critical strike!
Japangirl
05-16-07, 02:04 PM Because I wasn't teasing you or anything lol. I've looked over your character and while it doesn't get its power until about 7th, it's certainly not useless before that.

Besides, I have a cleric. If you're being useless, I can just 'forget' to heal you :P.
JamesMaissen
05-16-07, 10:57 PM In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter.

Darkvision has a range, if you travel with light you illuminate the party at distance. Likewise lights can tip off somethings that something is on the other side of a less than sealed portal.

Not to mention that scouting is all but useless if you need to hold a light to see by.

An all darkvision party is a wonderful thing to achieve and something that if you are planning a group from scratch that you may wish to consider.

-James
ThaiGQ
05-17-07, 02:50 AM Ok, sorry for the delay, but I'm not that good at making builds so I needed some time to figure some things out... For weal or woe, here's my crack at a Knight type character for your Greyhawk Ruins team, Crystal Blue:

Mountain Dwarf LG
Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 6 (after racial adjustments)

L1: Monk (Combat Expertise, *Improved Grapple)
L2: Monk (*Combat Reflexes)
L3: Fighter (Improved Trip, *EWP - Chain, Spiked)
L4: Fighter (*WF - Chain, Spiked)
L5: Knight
L6: Knight (Power Attack)
L7: Knight
L8: Fighter
L9: Fighter (WS - Chain, Spiked, *MWM - Piercing)
L10: Exotic Weapon Master
L11: Exotic Weapon Master
L12: Fighter (Improved Buckler Defense)
L13: Fighter (*Dodge)
L14: Fighter
L15: Fighter (*Mobility, Elusive Target)

(* Bonus feats)

This should be a decent tank build which should give you good battlefield control (for a tank), especially in confined areas. I threw in the Monk levels for Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes and also the skills Hide and Move Silently...you'll never be good at them by any means, but you won't be horrible either. Another idea is to replace Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target for Expert Tactician and Distracting Attack which would give your allies bonuses to hit. After re-reading Test of Mettle, I decided it wasn't worth it since the effects were canceled as soon as anyone other than yourself attacked the target.

I'll try to work on another build which includes Marshall so you can use Cha as well as Str to add to your Trip attacks. :D
Mithreinmaethor
05-17-07, 06:48 AM One thing to consider is that if they allow the Class substitution abilities from Dungeonscape some of the classes get good things for that dungeon crawl. So hopefully the booklet will be out soon and we will know what we can really do for our characters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 05-14-07, 07:50 AM	So I got to thinking about a team that'll do well in the Greyhawk Ruins. Problem is...I'm not the most cheesed out person in the world. I work under the philosophy that you need to have multiple skills, not just one that you do really well. But here's my attempt at a good dungeon-crawling group...I think... P1: Tank P2: BDF P3: Arcane P4: Healer P5: Sneaky-Sneaky P6: Leader And with that...I'm going to propose my first build. Player 1: The Tank that SHOULD take most of the damage Dwarf Battlesmith of Moriden S:14 D:14 C:17 I:10 W:14 CH:6 1: Cleric [War and Protection] (Dwarven Armor Proficiency) 2: Cleric 3: Cleric (Endurance) 4: Cleric [Increase Constitution] 5: Fighter (Heavy Armor Optimization) 6: Fighter (Practiced Spellcaster) (Combat Reflexes) 7: Cleric 8: Battlesmith [Increase Constitution] 9: Battlesmith [Crafter Wonderous Items] 10: Battlesmith 11: Battlesmith 12: Battlesmith [Increase Constitution] (Improved Heavy Armor Optimization 13: Cleric 14: Cleric 15: Cleric
Haro 05-14-07, 08:14 AM	Player 1: The Tank that SHOULD take most of the damage Dwarf Battlesmith of Moriden S:14 D:14 C:17 I:10 W:14 CH:6 I'd drop the dex to 10, and wear the now Open access Heavy Armor (+0 max dex) in order to free up those 4 build points. Those should most likely go to Str, or if you are concerned about skills then Int. Also be aware that Greyhawk Ruins is most likely to be a series of dungeon crawls; what better way to tank than to become a Dwarven Defender and Defensive Stance in that 5' corridor? If a one or two level dip tickles your fancy, then keep the 14 Dex to qualify for Dodge, otherwise I would drop it... Joe
_metz_ 05-14-07, 08:34 AM	If you are going to have dex, elusive target is a good option, otherwise I wouldn't bother, go Str 16.
Mommy was an Orc 05-14-07, 11:00 AM	I think your build has some big issues: You lose +2 BAB really fast for someone who isn't going to be casting Divine Power. No power attack and really low strength score means low damage. You can't really raise Constitution and Wisdom via the neck slot. I'm not sure Battlesmith really gives you all that much for the cost, especially as it costs you either caster progression or the ability to gain Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery - those two alone = +4 damage per swing. If you give up the Con slot, you only do +5 damage per swing if you have a +6 Wisdom Amulet. The big concern here is you can't just try to stand in the way and make yourself hard to hurt - you need to present enough of a threat to make them keep attacking you. Have you looked at Warpriest at all? It gives some nice abilities, advances Cleric casting, and some of the specials are pretty interesting(especially the Inflame, Mass Heal, Fear and Heroes Feast - you can just get the Mass Heal off at 15th if you have a level in Paladin or Swashbuckler and therefore enter it at 7th) Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 4/Cleric 1/Warpriest 9 as an example.
Timlagor 05-14-07, 11:22 AM	I'd definitely do a Deepwarden/DDefender for this myself. Be aware that the only way to take the damage is to deal the damage or really get in the way. Dungeon Crawls make it easier to get in the way but you still need respectable damage out.
evilaustintom 05-14-07, 12:05 PM	One thing my group is looking at is not only a balanced group for Greyhawk Ruins, but a group CONCEPT. That can be looked at from a number of angles. One is the role-playing angle. There is little I can say on this right now, since we’re still waiting on the rules of this campaign to be put out. However, they have already mentioned that they will use the PHII rules for organizations, so many of the Greyhawk guilds will be available to join (merchants’ guild, thieves’ guild, a certain temple, etc.). My group will probably go with just one or two of these groups. The other is the mechanical/tactical angle. Now having a balanced party is always a concern, and having a regular group that plays together makes getting a balanced group easy. However, my group is looking to go one step further – PLAN on having the fellow PCs in their group. With this, you can go with more broad concepts. Things our group is considering are concepts like: - Everyone in the group has ranks in Hide and Move Silently. With that, the group as a whole can be stealthy, without that one noisy fighter giving things away. - Everyone takes at least one feat that plays off one another well. Like Wolfpack or Swarm Fighting tactics. There is a shield wall-type feat out of the CW that might work well (this is said without my gaming books in front of me). - Everyone in the group has a fast initiative and high ranks in spot/listen, or increases everyone else’s initiative (like a marshal or guerilla warrior). Not everyone in our group has yet to decide on which of these we’re going to go with, and some disagree on the effectiveness of some of these concepts. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Or perhaps additional ideas? Tom Thowe
Japangirl 05-14-07, 01:23 PM	Our group was originally going to be a luck-based group, with everyone taking luck feats and having two people with 1 level of cleric to get Luck and Destiny domains (I reroll, you reroll, you reroll, reroll again, etc). That kinda fell apart though when we realized we didn't actually have a full healer :(. We don't have a concept so much anymore, but the table so far looks like: cleric/divine oracle/contemplative of Brandobaris, Charisma-based fighter/tank, and 3-4 people who can't make up their minds :-/.
Mommy was an Orc 05-14-07, 03:16 PM	I think if you can guarantee the group, I'd go with something resembling an all-rogue group. 1: Half-Orc Rogue BDF - Rogue 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1 2: Wood-Elf Scout Dervish - Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dervish 6 3: Grey Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 4: Halfling Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10 5: Human Beguiler 13/Unseen Seer 2 6: Half-Elf Cleric of Boccob 6/Ruathar 3/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 2(Domain Spontaneity for Force and Travel - for DDoors, Teleports, and Walls of Force - among other things...) Half-Orc and Dervish do lots of damage, there are 4 near-primary casters after that, and boy is trapfinding covered...
evilaustintom 05-14-07, 04:28 PM	I think if you can guarantee the group, I'd go with something resembling an all-rogue group. 1: Half-Orc Rogue BDF - Rogue 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1 2: Wood-Elf Scout Dervish - Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dervish 6 3: Grey Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 4: Halfling Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10 5: Human Beguiler 13/Unseen Seer 2 6: Half-Elf Cleric of Boccob 6/Ruathar 3/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Contemplative 2(Domain Spontaneity for Force and Travel - for DDoors, Teleports, and Walls of Force - among other things...) Half-Orc and Dervish do lots of damage, there are 4 near-primary casters after that, and boy is trapfinding covered... I think you need a bard level in there w/divine prankster...but I get your drift. That's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. You can even have a Cleric with the trickery domain (for Hide as a class skill), if you can't get the NONC p-class access. Perhaps throw in a marshal somewhere that boosts dex-based skills...
ThaiGQ 05-15-07, 12:49 AM	Crystal Blue, for a tank, consider taking a Knight as they've got good hit points, Fort & Will saves, and some pretty good class abilities for tanking. Bulwark of Defense would probably work pretty well in an enclosed space if you're up front as it makes it cost twice as much movement to get past you. The Knight's Challenge "Test of Mettle" is also pretty good for forcing the enemies to attack you, and I'm sure the front-line low AC BDF will appreciate Shield Ally which will allow you to absorb damage for him/her. You could also combine the Knight class with Paladin or Marshall to maximize synergy for your Cha and also take on the role of team leader and/or party face. :D
magebeast 05-15-07, 01:15 AM	Our group was originally going to be a luck-based group, with everyone taking luck feats and having two people with 1 level of cleric to get Luck and Destiny domains (I reroll, you reroll, you reroll, reroll again, etc). That kinda fell apart though when we realized we didn't actually have a full healer :(. We don't have a concept so much anymore, but the table so far looks like: cleric/divine oracle/contemplative of Brandobaris, Charisma-based fighter/tank, and 3-4 people who can't make up their minds :-/. I made up my mind ages ago. Gish. That way I can lean on you guys for my first six levels while I buy the absolute minimum to survive till my crafting feats come online.
Sieylianna 05-15-07, 07:19 AM	Everyone in the group has ranks in Hide and Move Silently. With that, the group as a whole can be stealthy, without that one noisy fighter giving things away. As long as everyone in the group has darkvision. If you need to have a light source, you're not going to be stealthy in a dungeon. Ed
CrystalBlue 05-15-07, 07:48 AM	Well, we've been thinking it over. For some reason, my friend likes that idea of an almost all rogue group. I don't. >.< Sure, we would do well against the traps in the ruins, but we would die horribly to all the constructs and such that are also in said ruins. I like the knight idea. I'm trying to monkey around with a few ideas for it. Get a chain and threaten a radius of 10'. That would keep people where I want them. Maybe also take Improved Trip. How about... Human Knight S:14 D:14 C:14 I:13 W:8 CH:12 Hmmm...it's just that that is pretty watered down for any character. I just want the dexterity for the Combat Reflexes, the strength for tripping, the intellegence for Combat Expertice and Improved Trip and the constitution for the HP. Oh, and charisma for Test of Mettle. Damn it...that's way too spread out. Help? whines and paws at people
ThaiGQ 05-15-07, 08:10 AM	Well, we've been thinking it over. For some reason, my friend likes that idea of an almost all rogue group. I don't. >.< Sure, we would do well against the traps in the ruins, but we would die horribly to all the constructs and such that are also in said ruins. I like the knight idea. I'm trying to monkey around with a few ideas for it. Get a chain and threaten a radius of 10'. That would keep people where I want them. Maybe also take Improved Trip. How about... Human Knight S:14 D:14 C:14 I:13 W:8 CH:12 Hmmm...it's just that that is pretty watered down for any character. I just want the dexterity for the Combat Reflexes, the strength for tripping, the intellegence for Combat Expertice and Improved Trip and the constitution for the HP. Oh, and charisma for Test of Mettle. Damn it...that's way too spread out. Help? whines and paws at people I accept the challenge...sounds like fun! :D A bit more info on the requirements and possible access though: 1. Preferred race(s) 2. Preferred classes/PrC's (I know you said your group likes the rogue party, so do you want to dip into rogue as well?) 3. Possible PrC access for the Greyhawk Ruins modules (specifically Dread Commando for the rogue group)
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 08:12 AM	As long as everyone in the group has darkvision. If you need to have a light source, you're not going to be stealthy in a dungeon. Ed In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter.
Southernskies 05-15-07, 08:13 AM	With enough levels in Knight, you can dump Charisma. Dwarven Knight works for Ruins. Having a penalty just means you can't use it every combat to start with (1/2 Knight level + Cha bonus, minimum 1 per day) Dwarf of Gendwar Argrim Str 15, Dex 12, Con 18 (16), Int 10 (14), Wis 12, Cha 6 Knight6/Pious Templar3/Hospitaler6 3. WF 9. Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) A little feat starved, but there is room for picking a secondary feat chains (Power Attack / CombExp+Imp Disarm / Shield Specialisation+Shield Ward / Combat Reflexes+Hold the Line)
Timlagor 05-15-07, 08:33 AM	In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter. The torch makes hiding rather pointless which mere vision does not. For a mechanically themed party I'd go with the Arcane Party. Gish Dragon Disciple USeer/Trickster Sorceror Arcane Hierophant Mystic Theurge. One of them could be a Beguiler... the point is that all roles can be covered well enough.
Japangirl 05-15-07, 11:56 AM	I made up my mind ages ago. Gish. That way I can lean on you guys for my first six levels while I buy the absolute minimum to survive till my crafting feats come online. Ah yes, that's right. Silly useless low-level gishes :P.
magebeast 05-15-07, 02:06 PM	Ah yes, that's right. Silly useless low-level gishes :P. Hey I can tank okay at first (14 HP) and second level (21 HP), and after that I can do okay damage with critical strike!
Japangirl 05-16-07, 02:04 PM	Because I wasn't teasing you or anything lol. I've looked over your character and while it doesn't get its power until about 7th, it's certainly not useless before that. Besides, I have a cleric. If you're being useless, I can just 'forget' to heal you :P.
JamesMaissen 05-16-07, 10:57 PM	In a dungeon most of the enemies will have Darkvision anyhow so a torch isnt gonna matter. Darkvision has a range, if you travel with light you illuminate the party at distance. Likewise lights can tip off somethings that something is on the other side of a less than sealed portal. Not to mention that scouting is all but useless if you need to hold a light to see by. An all darkvision party is a wonderful thing to achieve and something that if you are planning a group from scratch that you may wish to consider. -James
ThaiGQ 05-17-07, 02:50 AM	Ok, sorry for the delay, but I'm not that good at making builds so I needed some time to figure some things out... For weal or woe, here's my crack at a Knight type character for your Greyhawk Ruins team, Crystal Blue: Mountain Dwarf LG Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 6 (after racial adjustments) L1: Monk (Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple) L2: Monk (Combat Reflexes) L3: Fighter (Improved Trip, EWP - Chain, Spiked) L4: Fighter (WF - Chain, Spiked) L5: Knight L6: Knight (Power Attack) L7: Knight L8: Fighter L9: Fighter (WS - Chain, Spiked, MWM - Piercing) L10: Exotic Weapon Master L11: Exotic Weapon Master L12: Fighter (Improved Buckler Defense) L13: Fighter (Dodge) L14: Fighter L15: Fighter (Mobility, Elusive Target) ( Bonus feats) This should be a decent tank build which should give you good battlefield control (for a tank), especially in confined areas. I threw in the Monk levels for Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes and also the skills Hide and Move Silently...you'll never be good at them by any means, but you won't be horrible either. Another idea is to replace Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target for Expert Tactician and Distracting Attack which would give your allies bonuses to hit. After re-reading Test of Mettle, I decided it wasn't worth it since the effects were canceled as soon as anyone other than yourself attacked the target. I'll try to work on another build which includes Marshall so you can use Cha as well as Str to add to your Trip attacks. :D
Mithreinmaethor 05-17-07, 06:48 AM	One thing to consider is that if they allow the Class substitution abilities from Dungeonscape some of the classes get good things for that dungeon crawl. So hopefully the booklet will be out soon and we will know what we can really do for our characters.