Building a shadow dancer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a shadow dancer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-25-07, 07:58 PM i would like to build a shadow dancer i have played a rogue in LG up to 4th level and have learned about the important things,

1: con must be 14 no ifs ands or buts
2: int can be a 12 or even a 10 as human
3: if i want to hit whep finess is needed
4: shadow dancer ablity to hide in frount of you is the most important, the D6s of sneak are important but thats not the only thing that matters
5: im willing to multi class (no penaltys) like heck as long as i keep the following ablitys maxed out each level hide, move silent, slight of hand

i only need 1 level of shadow dancer (unless some one really thinks i need to keep going)

so far i am looking at this
10
16
14
14
10
10
human(or halfling possibly)
10
18
14
12
10
10

Rog:1 (only level im set on) dodge (and cbt reflexes if human)
Rog:2
Rog:3 Wfiness
Rog:4
Rog:5
ftr 6: open feat (the other shadow dancer qualifying feat)
(open level)
shadow dancer 1:

i dont have it very well padded out because i cant think of any PrCs that give me even partial rogue skill progression
clannagh
07-25-07, 08:07 PM Traditionally rogue is regarded as the least optimal way of getting to shadow dancer because the PrC grants you a heap of abilities you already got as rogue.

Have a look at some of the builds in the optimised collections.
UMiskatonic
07-25-07, 10:44 PM Actually, this might work okay. Let me talk you through what I've learned, I did this for LG already.

1) People expect you to find traps. Add search and disable to the list.

2) Yes, you're right about 14 Con.

3) That darkvision ability really is worth it.

4) Spring attack is ROCK solid. You can spring attack, and hide in plain sight every round.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
That said, here's some things you haven't thought of.

a) If you get one attack a round, it needs to matter. Either sneak attack feats, like staggering strike, or a big weapon and power attack.

b) There's no reason to use a rapier. You've got fighter levels. Be the shadowdancer with the greatsword, or at least something like a katana.

c) What are you doing with Dex? You'll have better skills over all if you are smart. Dex helps you have great skills at 1st level. Int helps you have great skills at 8th level.

d) Weapon Finesse isn't needed if you have a Str and Dex of 14. Saving a feat is gigantic.

e) you can power attack on a spring attack. That's what I'd do if I build this character again. Slide out of the shadows, and ka-pow. Rinse, and repeat as needed.

f) Nightsong enforcer is good, Swashbuckler/Daring outlaw is good, and there are others. Shadowdancer builds should be easy to find, try the search command, and go beyond the LG board for ideas.
control freak
07-25-07, 10:55 PM the big issue for this build is haveing the hide/dance as class skills and i dont know any full BAB classes that do that so i will probably go rog 3 ftr 2 swashbuckler 3 shadow dancer 1

my goal is to do about what you said but with a rapid shotting bow, or dervish levels (as some feats are the same) and this is starting to scream to me dervish+shadow dancer+ spiked chain fighter

rog 1: dodge, WF ( some slashing whepon still undecided)
ftr 2: mobility
ftr 3: combat reflexes, combat expt
brb 4:
ftr 5:
ftr 6: extra rage (isnt there another feat for those 2 classes
dervish 7:
shadow dancer 8:
shadow dancer 9:
dervish 10:
dervish 11:

after that i dont know
UMiskatonic
07-25-07, 11:35 PM Dervish specifically says you can't hide while dervish dancing. FYI
CdrcJsn
07-26-07, 01:55 AM What about:

1) Rog1
2-7) Swashbuckler 1-6 - with Daring Outlaw, that's 4d6 sneak dice for your spring attacks
8+) Shadowdancer

You're gonna have to buy hide and move silent ranks cross class or retrain them in though since Swashbuckler doesn't have them as class skills.

The lack of armor Swashbucklers usually suffer from won't be a real hinderance if you plan on hiding most of the time.
control freak
07-26-07, 12:18 PM is there a feat that does darring outlaw for fighter/rogue that would be amazeing if there was
bitznarf
07-26-07, 12:24 PM I think you need 2d6 sneak attack for Daring Outlaw, I could be wrong though.
CdrcJsn
07-26-07, 04:19 PM Ah...indeed there is.
LightWarden
07-29-07, 02:36 PM Funny thing, taken from the SRD.

"If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)"

Which I've always seen as "once a class skill, always a class skill"
bitznarf
07-29-07, 02:37 PM Right, it is just the cost that changes.
Alpha_Nerd
07-30-07, 03:59 PM Ranger with the alternate ability from Dungeonscape that gives them trapfinding and disable device as a class skill would make a good entrance into Shadowdancer don't you think?
Grantor
07-30-07, 05:53 PM Funny thing, taken from the SRD.

"If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)"

Which I've always seen as "once a class skill, always a class skill"

That's only for the maximum ranks. You still only get half a rank per point when buying a skill that is cross-class to the class you are leveling-up into.
Grantor
07-30-07, 05:56 PM Ranger with the alternate ability from Dungeonscape that gives them trapfinding and disable device as a class skill would make a good entrance into Shadowdancer don't you think?

That would be awesome. Full BAB, Move Silently and Hide, plus Trapfinding and Disable Device all in one class.

Unfortunately Dual Wield does not work with Spring Attack and the ranger bonus feats are not that helpful to a shadow dancer. Still, nearly as good as the one level dip into Fighter, if you don't depend on that extra feat.
Timlagor
07-31-07, 09:57 AM The Shadow Companion is HUGE.
Tengu
07-31-07, 10:26 AM 4) Spring attack is ROCK solid. You can spring attack, and hide in plain sight every round.

Yes, but if you strike and then re-hide don't you suffer the -20 re-hide that a sniper gets (PHB 76) or because this is not a ranged attack, it does not apply? Seems broke to me that re-hiding at 100' even with hide in plane sight is -20 but if I step up and smack you in the face and then move 10' ft away, I don't get a -20? How does this work?

Thanks,
control freak
07-31-07, 02:12 PM there is no negitive to hiding, did you SNIPE? i didnt see you snipe i saw you dash out smack face and run back (or hide in its shadow!)
Lightblade
07-31-07, 04:53 PM One thing that might make shadowdancers nicer is that alternate class features are starting to crop up on ARs and in metaorgs. Specifically you might be able to go Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3, and retrain Rogue evasion and Rogue uncanny dodge when you no longer need them.
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 06:24 PM Amen to that. Having evasion and spell reflection is ten times better than having evasion, and a backup evasion in case you lose the first one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-25-07, 07:58 PM	i would like to build a shadow dancer i have played a rogue in LG up to 4th level and have learned about the important things, 1: con must be 14 no ifs ands or buts 2: int can be a 12 or even a 10 as human 3: if i want to hit whep finess is needed 4: shadow dancer ablity to hide in frount of you is the most important, the D6s of sneak are important but thats not the only thing that matters 5: im willing to multi class (no penaltys) like heck as long as i keep the following ablitys maxed out each level hide, move silent, slight of hand i only need 1 level of shadow dancer (unless some one really thinks i need to keep going) so far i am looking at this 10 16 14 14 10 10 human(or halfling possibly) 10 18 14 12 10 10 Rog:1 (only level im set on) dodge (and cbt reflexes if human) Rog:2 Rog:3 Wfiness Rog:4 Rog:5 ftr 6: open feat (the other shadow dancer qualifying feat) (open level) shadow dancer 1: i dont have it very well padded out because i cant think of any PrCs that give me even partial rogue skill progression
clannagh 07-25-07, 08:07 PM	Traditionally rogue is regarded as the least optimal way of getting to shadow dancer because the PrC grants you a heap of abilities you already got as rogue. Have a look at some of the builds in the optimised collections.
UMiskatonic 07-25-07, 10:44 PM	Actually, this might work okay. Let me talk you through what I've learned, I did this for LG already. 1) People expect you to find traps. Add search and disable to the list. 2) Yes, you're right about 14 Con. 3) That darkvision ability really is worth it. 4) Spring attack is ROCK solid. You can spring attack, and hide in plain sight every round. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That said, here's some things you haven't thought of. a) If you get one attack a round, it needs to matter. Either sneak attack feats, like staggering strike, or a big weapon and power attack. b) There's no reason to use a rapier. You've got fighter levels. Be the shadowdancer with the greatsword, or at least something like a katana. c) What are you doing with Dex? You'll have better skills over all if you are smart. Dex helps you have great skills at 1st level. Int helps you have great skills at 8th level. d) Weapon Finesse isn't needed if you have a Str and Dex of 14. Saving a feat is gigantic. e) you can power attack on a spring attack. That's what I'd do if I build this character again. Slide out of the shadows, and ka-pow. Rinse, and repeat as needed. f) Nightsong enforcer is good, Swashbuckler/Daring outlaw is good, and there are others. Shadowdancer builds should be easy to find, try the search command, and go beyond the LG board for ideas.
control freak 07-25-07, 10:55 PM	the big issue for this build is haveing the hide/dance as class skills and i dont know any full BAB classes that do that so i will probably go rog 3 ftr 2 swashbuckler 3 shadow dancer 1 my goal is to do about what you said but with a rapid shotting bow, or dervish levels (as some feats are the same) and this is starting to scream to me dervish+shadow dancer+ spiked chain fighter rog 1: dodge, WF ( some slashing whepon still undecided) ftr 2: mobility ftr 3: combat reflexes, combat expt brb 4: ftr 5: ftr 6: extra rage (isnt there another feat for those 2 classes dervish 7: shadow dancer 8: shadow dancer 9: dervish 10: dervish 11: after that i dont know
UMiskatonic 07-25-07, 11:35 PM	Dervish specifically says you can't hide while dervish dancing. FYI
CdrcJsn 07-26-07, 01:55 AM	What about: 1) Rog1 2-7) Swashbuckler 1-6 - with Daring Outlaw, that's 4d6 sneak dice for your spring attacks 8+) Shadowdancer You're gonna have to buy hide and move silent ranks cross class or retrain them in though since Swashbuckler doesn't have them as class skills. The lack of armor Swashbucklers usually suffer from won't be a real hinderance if you plan on hiding most of the time.
control freak 07-26-07, 12:18 PM	is there a feat that does darring outlaw for fighter/rogue that would be amazeing if there was
bitznarf 07-26-07, 12:24 PM	I think you need 2d6 sneak attack for Daring Outlaw, I could be wrong though.
CdrcJsn 07-26-07, 04:19 PM	Ah...indeed there is.
LightWarden 07-29-07, 02:36 PM	Funny thing, taken from the SRD. "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)" Which I've always seen as "once a class skill, always a class skill"
bitznarf 07-29-07, 02:37 PM	Right, it is just the cost that changes.
Alpha_Nerd 07-30-07, 03:59 PM	Ranger with the alternate ability from Dungeonscape that gives them trapfinding and disable device as a class skill would make a good entrance into Shadowdancer don't you think?
Grantor 07-30-07, 05:53 PM	Funny thing, taken from the SRD. "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)" Which I've always seen as "once a class skill, always a class skill" That's only for the maximum ranks. You still only get half a rank per point when buying a skill that is cross-class to the class you are leveling-up into.
Grantor 07-30-07, 05:56 PM	Ranger with the alternate ability from Dungeonscape that gives them trapfinding and disable device as a class skill would make a good entrance into Shadowdancer don't you think? That would be awesome. Full BAB, Move Silently and Hide, plus Trapfinding and Disable Device all in one class. Unfortunately Dual Wield does not work with Spring Attack and the ranger bonus feats are not that helpful to a shadow dancer. Still, nearly as good as the one level dip into Fighter, if you don't depend on that extra feat.
Timlagor 07-31-07, 09:57 AM	The Shadow Companion is HUGE.
Tengu 07-31-07, 10:26 AM	4) Spring attack is ROCK solid. You can spring attack, and hide in plain sight every round. Yes, but if you strike and then re-hide don't you suffer the -20 re-hide that a sniper gets (PHB 76) or because this is not a ranged attack, it does not apply? Seems broke to me that re-hiding at 100' even with hide in plane sight is -20 but if I step up and smack you in the face and then move 10' ft away, I don't get a -20? How does this work? Thanks,
control freak 07-31-07, 02:12 PM	there is no negitive to hiding, did you SNIPE? i didnt see you snipe i saw you dash out smack face and run back (or hide in its shadow!)
Lightblade 07-31-07, 04:53 PM	One thing that might make shadowdancers nicer is that alternate class features are starting to crop up on ARs and in metaorgs. Specifically you might be able to go Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3, and retrain Rogue evasion and Rogue uncanny dodge when you no longer need them.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 06:24 PM	Amen to that. Having evasion and spell reflection is ten times better than having evasion, and a backup evasion in case you lose the first one.