Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 08-21-07, 04:23 PM	Hey guys, I was wondering what critiques you would offer on this attempt at an effective kobold front-liner: Race: kobold points/ ability score str 10/ 12 con 6/ 12 dex 4/ 14 int 4/ 14 wis 4/ 10 cha 0/ 8 1 Kobold ranger Dragon Wings kobold rite of passage ac+1 2 barbarian 3 Kobold fighter weapon focus heavy pick dodge 4 ranger 2wf str+1 5 fighter oversize 2wf 6 beguiler power attack 7 DD ac+1 8 DD str+3 9 DD improved critical 10 DD str+2 ac+2 11 DD 12 DD Improved kobold wings str+1, Con+2 ac+3 13 DD 14 DD Int +2 15 DD * str+1 I've not played an effective front-line guy yet. The idea here is that as this fellow's Str increases, he'll become increasingly dangerous in combat. Wielding two heavy picks with improved critical and power attack should result in a lot of critical hits. I think that kobold rite of passage should satisfy the spell casting req for Dragon Disciple, but the beguiler level allows me to use my reasonably high INT to get the knowledge arcana requirement. What am I doing wrong? What should I do better? I know that INT probably shouldn't be so high, but the increase in str is so expensive I thought the points would be better spent there.
Hariman 08-21-07, 07:50 PM	Hey guys, I was wondering what critiques you would offer on this attempt at an effective kobold front-liner: Race: kobold points/ ability score str 10/ 12 con 6/ 12 dex 4/ 14 int 4/ 14 wis 4/ 10 cha 0/ 8 1 Kobold ranger Dragon Wings kobold rite of passage ac+1 2 barbarian 3 Kobold fighter weapon focus heavy pick dodge 4 ranger 2wf str+1 5 fighter oversize 2wf 6 beguiler power attack 7 DD ac+1 8 DD str+3 9 DD improved critical 10 DD str+2 ac+2 11 DD 12 DD Improved kobold wings str+1, Con+2 ac+3 13 DD 14 DD Int +2 15 DD * str+1 I've not played an effective front-line guy yet. The idea here is that as this fellow's Str increases, he'll become increasingly dangerous in combat. Wielding two heavy picks with improved critical and power attack should result in a lot of critical hits. I think that kobold rite of passage should satisfy the spell casting req for Dragon Disciple, but the beguiler level allows me to use my reasonably high INT to get the knowledge arcana requirement. What am I doing wrong? What should I do better? I know that INT probably shouldn't be so high, but the increase in str is so expensive I thought the points would be better spent there. Rite of Passage grants a Spell Like Ability, which DOES NOT let a character qualify for Dragon Disciple. If you are going to try to play a melee focused kobold, four levels in Fighter is a MUST! Taking the alternate class features grants Spear Focus, +2 Con and +2 STR. (Either that, or barbarian and Reckless Rage for +6 STR while raging.) If you take the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings, you gain the ability to fly and make dive attacks while in the open. Dive attacks do double damage if they connect. With Spear Focus and four levels of Fighter, you can not only take weapon Specialization, but also Weapon Mastery too. Bard or Beguiler will let your character meet the skill requirements and spellcasting requirements. For your Rite of Passage spell, you can take either Enlarge Person, which DOES work on a Kobold (but not on Dragonwrought kobolds) or fist of stone for the attack bonus and improved damage on a slam attack. I recommend taking only 4 levels of Dragon Disciple and then leveling in fighter again. More feats = happy kobold. The main feats to squeeze in are: Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings, Power Attack, and weapon specialization/weapon mastery. Actually, it might be better to stay as a fighter so that you can get more feats. A fighter Barbarian will definitely have an edge, although Reckless Rage is likely a bad idea.
rutrow424 08-22-07, 10:21 AM	Hey guys, I was wondering what critiques you would offer on this attempt at an effective kobold front-liner: Race: kobold points/ ability score str 10/ 12 con 6/ 12 dex 4/ 14 int 4/ 14 wis 4/ 10 cha 0/ 8 Your points are off on INT and WIS; a 12 Int is fine if you go the beguiler route, but I would dump the WIS. 1 Kobold ranger Dragon Wings kobold rite of passage ac+1 2 barbarian 3 Kobold fighter weapon focus heavy pick dodge 4 ranger 2wf str+1 5 fighter oversize 2wf 6 beguiler power attack 7 DD ac+1 8 DD str+3 9 DD improved critical 10 DD str+2 ac+2 11 DD 12 DD Improved kobold wings str+1, Con+2 ac+3 13 DD 14 DD Int +2 15 DD * str+1 I've not played an effective front-line guy yet. The idea here is that as this fellow's Str increases, he'll become increasingly dangerous in combat. Wielding two heavy picks with improved critical and power attack should result in a lot of critical hits. You need +8 BAB to qualify for Imp Crit, and I don't think beguiler grants +1 BAB for 1st level. Just switch imp wings and imp crit in this build. Hariman pointed out several of the pertinent things relating to a kobold fighter build. The 4 fighter levels are a must; the +2 CON and STR are necessary to get you back on par with the other races. I personally don't like the 1st sub level for dodge and WF-spear(all), but it is not that bad. Going the flight route with dive and PA (and 2H spear) will be a lot better in the end than 2WF with picks. Either way, MWM with any fighter build is the way to go. With the end of LG looming, I have decided to go the Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/DD10 route for CGR. Taking STR 13 at start and 11 CH, you can get to STR 26 by the end (not gonna happen probably). I can bypass the wings, taking the dragon tail, focus in flail, and get MWM-bludgeoning at level 12. MWM should also work with your bite attack as a bonus for multiple attacks.
myshkingfh 08-22-07, 10:22 AM	Well, with only 16 months left, I'd not want to carry around a big (or even a small!) XP penalty. I guess I could do Fighter 5/Sorceror 1, but that's not really the ideal combo to DD. Plus, taking those Kobold Fighter levels gets rid of the feats I need anyway. See any better way around that? I could do something like Ranger3/fighter4/sorcerer1 to get to fighter 4, but my original proposal allows me to take bard or beguiler instead. What do you all think of the dual heavy pick/power attack/improved critical combo? Is that likely to be successful?
myshkingfh 08-22-07, 10:30 AM	Your points are off on INT and WIS; a 12 Int is fine if you go the beguiler route, but I would dump the WIS. You need +8 BAB to qualify for Imp Crit, and I don't think beguiler grants +1 BAB for 1st level. Just switch imp wings and imp crit in this build. Yeah, some transcription errors there from me tinkering with the build and not fixing all my tinkers. Thanks for the editorial eye! Hariman pointed out several of the pertinent things relating to a kobold fighter build. The 4 fighter levels are a must; the +2 CON and STR are necessary to get you back on par with the other races. I personally don't like the 1st sub level for dodge and WF-spear(all), but it is not that bad. Going the flight route with dive and PA (and 2H spear) will be a lot better in the end than 2WF with picks. Either way, MWM with any fighter build is the way to go. With the end of LG looming, I have decided to go the Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/DD10 route for CGR. Taking STR 13 at start and 11 CH, you can get to STR 26 by the end (not gonna happen probably). I can bypass the wings, taking the dragon tail, focus in flail, and get MWM-bludgeoning at level 12. MWM should also work with your bite attack as a bonus for multiple attacks. Maybe I just shouldn't be so tricky and get to DD ASAP through fighter and sorcerer, as you are doing. (though don't you need F5 for the BAB?) I was thinking about Kobold tail (though MWM bludgeon never occurred to me). How do multiple natural attacks work? If I didn't use any weapon, would I get bite/claw/claw/tail for 4 attacks per round? Seems like the monsters get to do that to me, but I've not done enough DM'ing to know the rules.
rutrow424 08-22-07, 03:03 PM	Maybe I just shouldn't be so tricky and get to DD ASAP through fighter and sorcerer, as you are doing. (though don't you need F5 for the BAB?) I was thinking about Kobold tail (though MWM bludgeon never occurred to me). How do multiple natural attacks work? If I didn't use any weapon, would I get bite/claw/claw/tail for 4 attacks per round? Seems like the monsters get to do that to me, but I've not done enough DM'ing to know the rules. DD does not have a BAB prereq - it is only speak draconic, 8 ranks in Knowledge-arcana, and cast arcane spells w/o preparation. Yes, you could get 4 natural attacks in a round w/o a weapon; this is generally going to be worse than using a 2H-melee weapon instead of the claws due to the damage and PA upgrade.
Hariman 08-22-07, 08:29 PM	DD does not have a BAB prereq - it is only speak draconic, 8 ranks in Knowledge-arcana, and cast arcane spells w/o preparation. Yes, you could get 4 natural attacks in a round w/o a weapon; this is generally going to be worse than using a 2H-melee weapon instead of the claws due to the damage and PA upgrade. The main advantage of the bite and the claws is that you gain weapons that can be used in a grapple or while swallowed with less penalty. And they are there if you are disarmed. Rutrow has a good point, a Two Handed weapon will probably outclass all four natural attacks because of sheer damage output and how that gets by DR.
myshkingfh 08-23-07, 12:21 PM	So, say I'm starting out this character as a Barbarian who fights with his natural weapons - do I need to take multiattack in order to use them all properly? If I Bite/Claw/Claw/Tail do I (ignoring str bonus for now) have atk +1/-4/-4/-4 unless I take multiattack and get +1/-1/-1/-1? I was thinking that I'd get to MWM through Pious Templar instead of F4.
rutrow424 08-23-07, 02:31 PM	So, say I'm starting out this character as a Barbarian who fights with his natural weapons - do I need to take multiattack in order to use them all properly? If I Bite/Claw/Claw/Tail do I (ignoring str bonus for now) have atk +1/-4/-4/-4 unless I take multiattack and get +1/-1/-1/-1? I was thinking that I'd get to MWM through Pious Templar instead of F4. Yes, that would be your attack progression with a BAB of +1 (not counting STR bonuses). The only PT options for kobolds involve P or S weapons (you must worship Io, Chronopsis, Bahamut, or Aastinerian), negating the usefulness of the tail - I went through the rounds before 4e was announced trying to make a kobold PT build. P/S should work with bite/claws, however, but I don't see how you intend to get them before level 12/13 with a PT build. A PT build should go for wings and imp wings for the flight/dive benefits. Without the fighter stat bumps, you will be relying on rage to do damage consistently until level 9-10, and you will still be behind the fighter equivalent more often than not. A barb1/fighter 4 build would be best if not for the XP penalty. Take extra rage, PA at 6th, and use F1 for the WF feat. You miss out on any of the kobold-specific feats, which loses more appeal to me, but YMMV.
myshkingfh 08-23-07, 03:37 PM	I don't have non-core books with me, but what are the requirements to get into PT? It's appropriate weapon focus, true believer and some knowledge skills? I think the current plan is: S12 D16 C12 I14 W8 C8 1 Barbarian - Dragon Wings, rite of passage for Enlarge 2 Barbarian 3 Fighter (sudden realization that order is necessary! OMG! I'm LG now!) - extra rage and weapon focus heavy pick 4 Fighter - boost str, power attack 5 Beguiler or warmage - retrain extra rage to true believer, take appropriate skills 6 Pious Templar (Bahamut) - improved dragon wings 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar - weapon specialization heavy pick, MWM Piercing 9 Dragon Desciple (silver) - two weapon fighting or improved critical 10-12 DD 13-15 yeah right.
thunderspirit 08-23-07, 04:05 PM	I don't have non-core books with me, but what are the requirements to get into PT? It's appropriate weapon focus, true believer and some knowledge skills? BAB+5 Kn: Religion 4 ranks True Believer feat WF (deity's favored weapon) feat.
myshkingfh 08-23-07, 04:19 PM	ah, so I need to delay beguiler and take another full BAB class. Ranger maybe. B/R/R/F/F/PT might be good. Loose uncanny dodge but gain track, favored enemy and two weapon fighting.
myshkingfh 08-23-07, 05:04 PM	Latest ideas! S 12 (all bumps) D 16 C 12 I 14 W 8 Ch 8 B1 - wings Kobold ranger 1 - track, favored enemy r2 - TWF, extra rage f1 - power attack f2 - weapon focus (heavy pick), retrain extra rage to True beleiver PT 1 - Improved Wings PT 2 Pt 3 - weapon specialization, retrain out of improved wings, into MWM (piercing) PT 4 - Improved dragon wings, Improved Critical War mage or Beguiler 1 (who can say?) DD 1 DD 2 - Extra Rage? DD 3 DD 4 B2 ? - ?
Hariman 08-23-07, 10:15 PM	Here's a build from Tanath, who originally posted this to the "Team Kobold" thread. Here is my kobold build, similer to the Scythe one "Croc the Terrible" Starting stats 14 Str 15 Dex 10 Con 8 Int 8 Wis 11 Chr He is a flying hammer type. He takes ALL the kobold subsititution levels. Feats are in paranthesis ********** 1st Ftr Sub 1 "DragonWings" "Dodge" "SpearFocus" Our kobold kinda sucks at this level, but not too bad. Use a Spear and a large shield, to get an AC of 21 out the door 4 Armor + 2 Shield + 2 Dex + 1 Size + 1 Nat + 1 Dodge = 21 *********** 2nd Ftr Sub 2 +2 Con The 2nd level kobold sub level nets a +2 con, easily worth it. ********** Ftr 3 "Improved DragonWings" Use a longspear as your primary at this point, but keep the shield if you need to. At third level, the Kobold is flying with a reach weapon. Use this to control the battlefield, if possible. This is the First money level. On a diving charge, our kobold is doing 2d6+6, enough to take out any APL 2 bad guy, and maybe enough to take out an APL 4 guy. ********** 4th Ftr 4 +2 Str 2d6+8...getting better ********* 5th Sorc 1 Take "Enlarge" and "True Strike" *********** 6th Dragon Disciple "Weapon Spec: Longspear" This is the Second money level, where the build starts working. Assuming you enlarge yourself, purchase a +2 Str item and a magic weapon, on a diving charge, our kobold is doing 2d8+20 A FAR cry better than before. This keeps going up. ******** 7th Dragon Disiciple +2 Str 2d8 +24 ******** 8th Dragon Disciple put your second natural ability point into str, making it 24 when enlarged 2d8+26 ********** 9th Dragon Disiciple +2 Str "Power Attack" Here is your third money level 2d8+66 damage on a flying charge, assuming enlarged, +4 str item, and +2 weapon. Pretty damn huge. Keep going all the way up. at 15th, assuming a +5 weapon and +6 str item and enlarged 34 Str (1d8+ 18 Str +5 weapon + 2 Spec + 22 Power attack) x2 = 2d8+94 on a diving charge, at +18 to hit, +38 if True Strike. You can add haste, bless, and heroism from other casters to make that go waaaay up. Also, a bard would increase his damage quite a bit as well. Not too bad. I'm sure we can sweeten the pot and add all kinds of goodies here.
Ira_Dei 08-24-07, 04:28 AM	Myshkingfh (sudden realization that order is necessary! OMG! I'm LG now!) And you lose the ability to rage. :(
myshkingfh 08-24-07, 12:05 PM	And you lose the ability to rage. :( Yeah, I noticed that too (I've never played a barbarian before!) but I only have to be one step away from my deity's alignment for true believer so let me amend that to: "OMG! I suddenly realize that Chaos isn't always necessary! I'm NG now!"
rutrow424 08-24-07, 12:36 PM	Latest ideas! S 12 (all bumps) D 16 C 12 I 14 W 8 Ch 8 B1 - wings Kobold ranger 1 - track, favored enemy r2 - TWF, extra rage f1 - power attack f2 - weapon focus (heavy pick), retrain extra rage to True beleiver PT 1 - Improved Wings PT 2 Pt 3 - weapon specialization, retrain out of improved wings, into MWM (piercing) PT 4 - Improved dragon wings, Improved Critical War mage or Beguiler 1 (who can say?) DD 1 DD 2 - Extra Rage? DD 3 DD 4 B2 ? - ? You can't retrain to MWM at 8th level - you can only retrain to a feat you qualified for @ 6th level; should not be a big deal since you can take MWM and imp crit at 9th.
myshkingfh 08-24-07, 02:52 PM	Good point, thanks! One thing I determined by playing this guy last night is that weilding a small heavy pick is a drag, even when weilding it two handed. I should have done this from the start, but I'll instead use a medium-sized heavy pick two-handed. Any other advice on how to improve actual damage dealt? I was thinking about punting 2wf (though I still have an inkling that weilding two weapons with an x4 critical might be better than weilding one such weapon two-handed - anyone have an obvious insight here?) that I'd get through ranger and instead taking Swash 3 for the obvious benefits as well as insiteful strike. I'd then have to take Barb2 (which is okay, because I've noticed how nice it is to have uncanny dodge!) but I don't know how I'd get the feats together for PT at 6.
Nutation 08-24-07, 03:38 PM	One thing I determined by playing this guy last night is that weilding a small heavy pick is a drag, even when weilding it two handed. I should have done this from the start, but I'll instead use a medium-sized heavy pick two-handed. It's a bad deal. You're trading -2 to hit for +1 damage and no ability to wield one-handed should you choose. You want more +attack, not less.
rutrow424 08-24-07, 03:47 PM	One thing I determined by playing this guy last night is that weilding a small heavy pick is a drag, even when weilding it two handed. I should have done this from the start, but I'll instead use a medium-sized heavy pick two-handed. 2H is almost always better than 2W, even for small PCs. I thought I could go the scimitar route for my kobold, with crits and smites making up for the low STR and d4, but the damage output still stinks.
myshkingfh 08-24-07, 06:06 PM	It's a bad deal. You're trading -2 to hit for +1 damage and no ability to wield one-handed should you choose. You want more +attack, not less. It's minus 2 to hit? I thought it was no penalty to hit to use a plus size one handed weapon two handed? *edit* Bah, I guess not. You're right. Why isn't there a two-handed heavy pick appropriately sized for a small creature? WotC can give us endless made up weapons, but not this obvious choice?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-24-07, 08:09 PM	It's minus 2 to hit? I thought it was no penalty to hit to use a plus size one handed weapon two handed? *edit* Bah, I guess not. You're right. Why isn't there a two-handed heavy pick appropriately sized for a small creature? WotC can give us endless made up weapons, but not this obvious choice? There is the dire pick from Complete Warrior. 2 handed martial weapon or 1 handed exotic weapon.
myshkingfh 08-25-07, 10:27 AM	Now we're talkin'!
bertman4 08-28-07, 01:37 PM	Here's a build from Tanath, who originally posted this to the "Team Kobold" thread. I don't understand how he's qualifying for DD. That PrC requires Know Arcana 8 ranks. With an Int of 8, and Ftr at 1st level, Croc only has 4 skill points. He puts all of them into Know Arcana which gives him 2 ranks since it is cross class. He does the same at 2-4, which gives him 3.5 ranks. 5th level is Sor but that too is a 2 rank skill class, -1 for his Int, gives him 1 skill point ot spend. He puts that into Know Arcana, and that gives him 4.5 skill ranks. He doesn't qualify for DD at 6th level as far as I can tell. Bertman
rutrow424 08-28-07, 03:46 PM	I don't understand how he's qualifying for DD. That PrC requires Know Arcana 8 ranks. With an Int of 8, and Ftr at 1st level, Croc only has 4 skill points. He puts all of them into Know Arcana which gives him 2 ranks since it is cross class. He does the same at 2-4, which gives him 3.5 ranks. 5th level is Sor but that too is a 2 rank skill class, -1 for his Int, gives him 1 skill point ot spend. He puts that into Know Arcana, and that gives him 4.5 skill ranks. He doesn't qualify for DD at 6th level as far as I can tell. Bertman Doesn't retraining allow you to change skill points around with your new class level point cost? If so (I remember seeing this in another thread), you retrain your 7 skill points when achieving 5th level into know-arcana, and spend your 5th level SP to make it 8. If not, you would need a feat/ability to make knowledge skills class skills (IE well read), or sorcerer at 1st level and a 10 INT.
Hariman 08-28-07, 10:17 PM	I don't understand how he's qualifying for DD. That PrC requires Know Arcana 8 ranks. With an Int of 8, and Ftr at 1st level, Croc only has 4 skill points. He puts all of them into Know Arcana which gives him 2 ranks since it is cross class. He does the same at 2-4, which gives him 3.5 ranks. 5th level is Sor but that too is a 2 rank skill class, -1 for his Int, gives him 1 skill point ot spend. He puts that into Know Arcana, and that gives him 4.5 skill ranks. He doesn't qualify for DD at 6th level as far as I can tell. Bertman Retraining lets a character retrain RANKS in a skill. So four ranks in a fighter skill at 1st level can be retrained into Knowledge Arcana once the character has a level in sorcerer. Doesn't retraining allow you to change skill points around with your new class level point cost? If so (I remember seeing this in another thread), you retrain your 7 skill points when achieving 5th level into know-arcana, and spend your 5th level SP to make it 8. If not, you would need a feat/ability to make knowledge skills class skills (IE well read), or sorcerer at 1st level and a 10 INT. Actually, you can only retrain 4 skill points at one time. So I think that the build character needs to take a level of sorcerer by level 4 instead of level 5. (Or else need to buy INT 10.) It throws off power progression a little, but it's manageable.