Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timlagor 08-06-07, 02:43 PM	I'm looking at a Tank-Cleric of St.Cuthbert for Greyhawk Ruins I definitely intend to be a wade-into-battle guy with buffing only pre-combat and/or in the first round and healing left until after it's all over. I'm pondering a few options though... Domains: Strength and Detruction clearly. I don't think either of these offer sufficiently potent spell lists to justify the PHB2 spontanuous Domain variant nor do I want to give up either power for Restorations. 1) Human Cleric 15 (14/10/14/10/15/12) 2) Dwarf Cleric 15 (14/10/16/10/15/10) 3) Half Orc Barb1/Cleric14 (18/10/14/8/16/6) I quite fancy having a respectable Charisma and putting some skills into Diplomacy as I could do with the Human and maybe the Dwarf. I don't think it's worth pushing the Charisma too hard, but is there a way to use Divine Might to make it worthwhile? Divine Fortune seems the most worthwhile of the Divine Feats otherwise and I'm not sure if it's worth the slot..maybe at 12th/15th.. plenty of time to decide anyway. Does Strength really need to be higher? Feats would be something like: 1) Power Attack (/Extra Rage) H) Quicken Spell 3) CWI 6) Extra Smite (/Power Attack .../Divine Fortune?) 9) Quicken Spell (Extra Smite) 12) Extra Smite (Mad Foam Rager?) 15) Extra Smite How many Extra Smites do I need? And how important will they be ..I hope I can do good damage without them...? [bit dull just to take the same Feat over and over too] I'd be using a Heavy Mace 2-handed unless I go with the Half-Orc in which case I'd probably go with a falchion (wot mi da taughted me) or maybe something with Reach (Strength Domain's Power and its Enlarge Person could see me Tripping some big beasties before they can hit me for instance.. and reach with Enlarge is always great) I'll be joining the St.Cuthbert and Nightwatch affiliations of course. I haven't had much experience of melee clerics.. how does the Barbarian level stack up against losing the spellcasting? (Martial weapon, Rage, +2Fort, +4HP v. better spells) How tempted am I likely to be to cast spells instead of attacking at higher levels? I've ignored PrCs because they would stop the Smite growing and cost something to get into. Have I missed one that I really should be considering?
jstorrie 08-06-07, 04:22 PM	Barb1/Cler14 won't work, because you'd have to be neutral and you can't be a neutral cleric of a non-neutral god. You'll be very tempted to cast instead of melee once you pass APL8 or so, which is why I don't think it's a very good idea to invest heavily in Extra Smite. Quicken Spell is enough to give you plenty of tanking potential (Quicken Enlarge, Quicken Divine Favour, etc.) and if you have a round to prebuff with Righteous Might or Divine Power you should do just fine in melee. Without some feats to boost your casting, however, you may find yourself lacking once it's more reasonable for you to cast than swing.
rutrow424 08-06-07, 04:29 PM	My 1st LG PC was a tank-cleric of Heironeous - IME, you will be very tempted to cast spells in combat as you rise in levels; it's often the best thing you can do. A lot of that will be determined by the mod and your party - in a party full of tanks (barbarian 2H-PA monster, druid with buffed up bear, etc) your best option may be to buff them or blast/de-buff the foes. As to the options you presented: 1) buy the higher STR if you intend to be a tank; you can dump CHA or DEX and put a 14 into WIS; I would also put 2 stat bumps to STR for an 18/20 at 8th level, putting the last into WIS at 12. With CWI, you won't miss the lower WIS, but will miss the lower STR. Diplomacy works for flavor for a Cuthbertine, but is mechanically weak for the build if CHA is needed. 2) I personally do not like the divine feats for a tank-cleric build; you will have a plethora of options between self-buffs, other spells, and attacks. IME, you can cast 1 buff per encounter (unquickened) and have more options than actions. This also lessens the need for CHA. 3) either the human or half-orc idea works; the half-orc build is probably more optimized (and either one works fine as a Bar1/Cl14 build) for a damage-dealer. Take extra rage, PA, CWI, Extra Smite/Quicken as your feats. Whether you want to lose the spells (ok for the concept I think) and prefer the STR or the feat will determine whether you take Bar1 or not, and your race. 4) between CWI, self-buffs, STR domain power, smites, and rage (if you go that route), you should have plenty of firepower to bring to the table. Add-in some longer-term buffs (magic circle, GMW, MV, etc) and self-healing, and it is easy to see why all the "Clerics are overpowered" threads proliferate. Just remember that you may be the only cleric and need to fill that niche for the party to succeed - that is the balancing factor in the class. 5) if you go half-orc, you lose nothing mechanically if you drop the INT to 6 (and it makes your pt buy 28). You won't miss the 1 Barb skill @ 4 ranks and you get the better WIS. <edit - I thought St. Cuthbert was LG alignment for GH, allowing for NG clerics?>
Timlagor 08-06-07, 07:08 PM	Cuthbert does allow NG Clerics but actually I do want to be Lawful Good so I'll just quietly forget the Barbarian. What Feats would I take to boost my casting? The only thing that looks really useful would be Augment Healing and I'm not taking that ...I suppose Chain Spell would be handy near the end but I'll just look out for a Lesser Rod. I'm far more likely to take a Fighter Feat but I think the Smites are probably better than anything else I could take there. If I'm the only cleric, people will just have to be careful. It's perfectly possible to play without a Support Cleric and I won't feel compelled to fill that role just because no one else is. I reckon I'll dump the Charisma and make up with Ranks. Dwarf: 16/10/16/12/14/6 bumping Str.. Thanks for the help.
Banor 08-06-07, 07:31 PM	If you are up for loosing some caster level, Battlesmith is pretty solid for a Dwarf. Adding Wisdom to damage and getting some Sacred Bonus to AC (not mention of the free Craft Arm and Armor)
Timlagor 08-06-07, 08:19 PM	Hmm an interesting idea but total lack of casting seriously limits its value and it's not cheap to get into.
clannagh 08-06-07, 08:24 PM	Contemplative ???
jstorrie 08-06-07, 10:43 PM	Church Inquisitor–though it is limited. If you're a 12 Int Human, though, you could retrain into it easily at any point.
TWG_Prometheus 08-07-07, 10:53 AM	From what you've been saying it sounds like you want to maintain your casting ability. Just to toss it in the ring, however, we worked out a Cleric 3/Fighter 6/X build not too long ago that looked really solid for a Cleric tank. You get 4 more feats out of the build and maintain Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th level along with Craft Wondrous Item by level 3 for cheap stat boosters. Practised Spellcaster at 6th keeps your spells moderately relevant until you can finish Fighter 6 and figure out what else you want to do. For a tank, you'd probably want to use the extra feats for stuff like Shield Specialization & Shield Ward along with the expected Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization to prep for Melee Weapon Mastery. The trick about the whole build is making sure that your party understands that you're a fighter that can PoP1 Lesser Vigor on them, not a Cleric who's trying to be a fighter.
Banor 08-07-07, 11:00 AM	From what you've been saying it sounds like you want to maintain your casting ability. Just to toss it in the ring, however, we worked out a Cleric 3/Fighter 6/X build not too long ago that looked really solid for a Cleric tank. You get 4 more feats out of the build and maintain Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th level along with Craft Wondrous Item by level 3 for cheap stat boosters. Practised Spellcaster at 6th keeps your spells moderately relevant until you can finish Fighter 6 and figure out what else you want to do. For a tank, you'd probably want to use the extra feats for stuff like Shield Specialization & Shield Ward along with the expected Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization to prep for Melee Weapon Mastery. The trick about the whole build is making sure that your party understands that you're a fighter that can PoP1 Lesser Vigor on them, not a Cleric who's trying to be a fighter. I'd rather go with Battle Smith than Fighter, it cost you 1 feat (Endurance) to get Wisdom to damage, another feat (CA&A) and 2 sacred bonus to AC. Plus you are a Dwarf and just plain cooler than other races. Or straight Cleric. You can't go wrong with it.
rutrow424 08-07-07, 11:45 AM	If I'm the only cleric, people will just have to be careful. It's perfectly possible to play without a Support Cleric and I won't feel compelled to fill that role just because no one else is. That's fine, just make sure the other players are aware of it. IMO though, playing without a support cleric is ok, but playing w/o a healing cleric is not. My battle cleric had no ranks in concentration, so casting/healing in combat was iffy, but it still needs to be done at times. Not every PC can "be careful" and still be effective. I would be wary if the only cleric in the party came off as anti-healing and I play the typical high damage low AC barb/fighter tank. I know I often get dirty looks when my PC does not heal/stabilize downed PCs, opting for the better tactical option of killing the bad guys (who are not threatening said downed PCs).
rutrow424 08-07-07, 11:50 AM	I'd rather go with Battle Smith than Fighter, it cost you 1 feat (Endurance) to get Wisdom to damage, another feat (CA&A) and 2 sacred bonus to AC. Plus you are a Dwarf and just plain cooler than other races. Or straight Cleric. You can't go wrong with it. Battlesmith only works for Moradin worshippers (or other dwarven warhammer dieties), so it is not in play for the St. Cuthbertine the OP desires. Straight cleric, or cleric w/ PrC for full spellcasting, is great. Any multi-class w/ cleric that loses more than 1 caster level is no longer a cleric; as was stated previously, a cleric 3/fighter 6 is a fighter that can heal, not a cleric that fights.
copper_wyrmling 08-07-07, 01:43 PM	I would just stick with straight cleric (unless perchance you decided to be a Heironean and Ordained Champion became available), as you don't have feats to spare and your domain powers are very level-dependent. As a full-caster cleric, you'll be an effective-enough spellcaster at all levels even if all your feats are melee-focused (about comparable to an iconic favored soul, I think), and CWI and Quicken are pretty good feats for both your spellcasting and your melee. Your low Wisdom will be an issue (especially if you use a Con amulet instead of a Wis periapt), but mostly that just means you play like a favored soul who dumped Wis, and avoid spells that rely on saves. Beating up stuff in melee is usually a pretty effective contribution (but have a plan for antimagic fields - reach weapons are good), especially in the low-mid levels, where your Greyhawk Ruins PC will probably be for quite a while. I suspect, from my own experience, that your biggest regular temptation to play spellcaster at high level will come about when (a) the monsters are fighting from range and your dwarven speed means you won't even get to full attack in the second round (after buffing and moving in), and (b) both the party and the bad guys have some devastating attacks but relatively weak defences, and lobbing a Harm / Bolt of Glory / Bigby's Hand etc in the first round will contribute to killing or disabling them before they act, whereas casting Divine Power and moving in will not. I don't think you should see that as a problem, though: options are good to have.
Evanta 08-09-07, 12:58 PM	I believe whether u're meleeing or casting will depend a lot on party composition, as well as your damage. I'm intending to build a Cuthbert Cleric too! Things in common: Human Cleric 15 (14/10/14/10/15/12)Domains : Strength and Destruction I will take both the alternative cleric options just for coolness, both applied to Strength Domain. I believe the spontaneous retorations >> once per day bonus to STR check, esp. when I already have feat of STR. :P Feats (CHA 12 route): 1: Divine Vigour (probably retrained later) B1: Power Attack 3: Craft Wondrous 6: Extra Smite 9: Quicken Spell 12: Blade of Force (use blade barrier to power this) 15: Irrelavant Feats (INT 12 instead of CHA 12) 1: Power Attack B1: Quicken Spell 3: Craft Wondrous 6: Divine Armor 9: Extra Smite 12: Blade of Force 15: Irrelavant
Howie23 08-09-07, 01:58 PM	Cuthbert does allow NG Clerics but actually I do want to be Lawful Good so I'll just quietly forget the Barbarian. Nope. Cuthbert clerics are limited to LG or LN per the deity doc. Moot if you are dropping barbarian, of course. David
Timlagor 08-09-07, 02:31 PM	Good point Howie. good thing I'd already dropped the idea :) Evanta: The Domain power is a bonus to Strength for one round not just a strength check but I agree that it's sacrificable. I'm not so sure about giving up spontaneous cures for the Stength Domain spells which are mostly Cleric spells anyway.
Evanta 08-11-07, 01:16 AM	Good point Howie. good thing I'd already dropped the idea :) Ecanta: The Domain power is a bonus to Strength for one round not just a strength check but I agree that it's sacrificable. I'm not so sure about giving up spontaneous cures for the Stength Domain spells which are mostly Cleric spells anyway. well, I guess it's mostly just the level 1 Enlarge Person, which has been extremely useful in combat at low levels. Later on I guess it can be retrained. The alternative is to take Destruction and Good, and apply both class options to Good. You get pretty good situational spells which do come up often enough (KILL EVIL!), as well as access to a decent AOE spell (Holy Smite).
Timlagor 08-11-07, 02:20 AM	I thought we were talking in terms of Spontaneous Restoration. I definitely like the Enlarge Person but I'm not sure I need more than one. Maybe I'm being overoptimistic about Pearls of Power but I also expect CGR modules to be relatively cramped.
Evanta 08-13-07, 12:09 AM	Don't mind me, I'm just posting my intended build for comparative discussion later. Valis Lightbringer LG Human Cleric 1 of St. Cuthbert STR 14 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 15 CHA 10 If I can get access to Church Inquisitor, will probably take 4 levels of it for some flavour. Domains - Good, Destruction Alternative Class Options - Divine Restoration (Good), Spontaneous Domain (Good) Feats: Lvl 1: Quicken Spell Bonus: Improved Initiative Lvl 3: Craft Wondrous Item Lvl 6: Divine Armor Lvl 9: Extra Smite Lvl 12: Retributive Spell Divine Armour - it may not seem so good, but when you're facing the possibility of a huge incoming full-attack from a extremely high BAB monster (e.g. hydra, dragon), it helps out a lot and effectively gives you 15-20 EHP, which might be just enough to prevent you from going down in 1 round. (more later)