Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rabbidmonkie 05-25-07, 04:43 PM	I am rather new to D&D so i may be missing a few things but here is what i am thinking thus far: Human, i have not figured the stats yet, but a lot of str, on and some int to meet the feet requirement. for classes i was going to go mostly fighter for the feet, but was going to include 1 lvl of cleric so i can use a wand of enlarge person. My idea was to create a chain fighter with a huge chain (from enlarge and monkey grip) so i will have as big of a threat range as possible. so, does anyone have any tips on making this build better before i put it all together?
Ralis 05-25-07, 04:53 PM	I have a Glaive wielder myself, and so far I've been happy with simply my ten foot range. (but I havn't had an oportunity to be enlarged). But I can tell you this. Monkey grip isn't very useful. If your going to make a spiked chainer, your starting feats should be the exotic weapon proficincy, Combat expertise and Improved Trip. Stats: Str: 16 Dex:10 Con:14 Int: 14 Wis:12 Cha:8 Now before someone blasts me about putting the extra point in INT, if you've put that many points into a stat, I feel you might as well put one more for the bonus skill points and bonus language.
boogahwoof 05-25-07, 05:10 PM	Well also having a large chain without being enlarged doesnt give you any extra reach, youll still only have a 10 ft reach at normal size and a 20 foot reach when enlarged. Your taking a feat to give yourself a little more damge 2d6 instead of 2d4 when meduim, and 3d6 instead of 2d6 when enlarged. If you are wanting to maximise your effectiveness when enlarged, you ought to look into 3 levels of knight to get the bullwark of defense. That means anyone in your threatened area when thery start thier turn is in hampered terrain, no 5 foot steps, so if they move you get a AoO. So that also means at some point to be effective you need to pick up combat reflexes.
Suvarov454 05-25-07, 07:01 PM	In case you don't already know, I'd like to point out that Large weapons aren't Open Access. You have to find access to the weapon on an AR.
Franco Un-American 05-25-07, 07:03 PM	Large weapons are perfectly Open in the current LGCS.
Ralis 05-25-07, 07:05 PM	I agree with Franco on that one. After all what are Large Centar's supposed to use?
bitznarf 05-25-07, 07:08 PM	Large weapons are perfectly Open in the current LGCS. This is correct: ...items may be of any size from Tiny to Large... And a shamelesss plug for my own thread, one that is working with a Bulwark of Defence - Spiked Chain idea: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=853473
Timlagor 05-25-07, 08:26 PM	Forget the Monkey Grip. It's not going to get you better damage increase than just Power Attacking for your attack bonus and if you're already power attacking for full then you won't notice the difference anyway. Much better to spend the Feat on something else especialy with a build like this that needs all the Feats it can get. Be sure to take at lest one level of exotic Weapon Master and Combat Reflexes. And unless you have a racial penalty to Int you would be crazy not to start with a 14 there.
clannagh 05-28-07, 11:08 PM	I am rather new to D&D so i may be missing a few things but here is what i am thinking thus far: Human, i have not figured the stats yet, but a lot of str, on and some int to meet the feet requirement. for classes i was going to go mostly fighter for the feet, but was going to include 1 lvl of cleric so i can use a wand of enlarge person. My idea was to create a chain fighter with a huge chain (from enlarge and monkey grip) so i will have as big of a threat range as possible. so, does anyone have any tips on making this build better before i put it all together? The huge chain doesnt increase the reach, it just does slightly more damage. Expect some negative comments from those players who tend to see D&D as a historical re-creation of real life medieval combat with a wee bit of LoR fantasy thrown in. Then again using anything but a sword and shield is going to upset that sort of person :) The enlarge person is essential for a chain fighter and nagging the arcanists to cast it on you is bad form. But if you are going the cleric route you must choose one with strength as a domain as its not a cleric spell. Aside from the obvious combat-expertise - improved trip - improved disarm feat track the following feat tracks are also useful for a reach fighter (note you cannot do ALL this with one character) combat reflexes - hold the line - deft opportunist dodge - mobility - spring attack - whirl wind attack power attack - cleave - great cleave in addition look closely at Exotic weapon master, especially EWM "flurry spiked chain"
bitznarf 05-28-07, 11:18 PM	I advise agaisnt Cleave and Great Cleave myself, at least, beyond the baby levels anyway. They just won't get enough use.
Ralis 05-28-07, 11:47 PM	On my reach fighter (using a glaive) I've got Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line. Along with Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specilization.
clannagh 05-29-07, 12:32 AM	I advise agaisnt Cleave and Great Cleave myself, at least, beyond the baby levels anyway. They just won't get enough use. I agree .. a chain fighter is not doing enough damage (especially to pull off a great cleave) plus as the APL goes up you get more and more single BBEG encounters and less batches of cleavable minions. I just included the cleave track because with 20' reach it occasionally will be useful. On the rare occasion you get charged by multiple minions and get the chance to combine combat reflexes hold the line and cleave it will be rather funny "get charged - hit with hold the line- trip with AoO - smack - second charge - hit with hold the line- AoO trip-kill-cleave on first kill as well etc etc until they run out of minions
JamesMaissen 05-29-07, 01:32 AM	I advise agaisnt Cleave and Great Cleave myself, at least, beyond the baby levels anyway. They just won't get enough use. You can make cleave and great cleave work at high levels. It takes work, however and a very specialized build. Reach is a key component to that build. As to the original poster, I would suggest that they strongly reconsider the 0 BAB class just to enlarge themselves. If you can get enough out of the class then great, otherwise it will become a weight holding them back. There is a feat from complete mage that let's you attune yourself to a magic item after activating it via UMD. This might be worthwhile when you have to enlarge yourself at lower and mid levels. Once you can afford the silly 5th level potions then trade it out for delay potion. The action cost for a fighter to do this is prohibitive so don't believe that you can spend a full round using a wand to enlarge yourself often. Consider something along the lines of the following: Monk2/Barb2/Fighter4/ExoticWeaponsMaster2 as a base. Human Str 16 Int 14* Wis 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Cha 8 Feats: Combat Expertise*, Improved Disarm*, (Imp Grapple), (Imp UAS), (Combat Reflexes), Extra Rage, Power Attack, EWP: Spiked Chain, WF: Spiked Chain, WS: Spiked Chain, MWM: Piercing. *You could forgo the Combat Expertiese route, pick up Power Attack early and have two feats for things like Cleave and Reckless Rage. You could then swap the INT and WIS scores to shore up the Will save some more. You could later retrain cleave into Iron Will should you wish to look at Holy Liberator. If you really like it you could even delay Fighter 3&4 to take it earlier, though that would delay Weapon Spec and Mastery. Pious Templar is another route though it won't work with the spiked chain and a barbarian (as the deity in question is Lawful Neutral). Stunts: in any event select (in this order) the ones giving you Flurry of Strikes and then AOOs through Cover. -James
Donald_Cannith 05-29-07, 02:03 AM	my current build is also a spiked chain guy a dwarf actually Str 16 Dex 12 Con 17(18) Int:14 wis:8 Cha:6 fighter6/Knight6/EWM 3 1)Fighter 1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2)Fighter 2 Exotic Weapon Proficency 3)Fighter 3: Weapon Focus 4)Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization 5)Knight 1: Knights Challenge 6)Knight 2: Mounted Combat, Shield +1 ,Combat Reflexes 7)EWM1: Exotic Reach 8)Knight 3: Bulwark of Defense 9)EWM 2: Flurry of Strikes, Melee Weapon Specialization 10)EWM 3: Trip Weapon 11) Fighter 5: 12) Fighter 6: Deft Oppurtunist, Hold The line 13) Knight 4: test of mettle Medium Armor mastery 14) Knight 5: Iron Will 15) Knight 6 : Defensive Sweep The Dwarf's stability nearly eliminates the chance being tripped in your own trip attempt. Bulwark of defense + Defensive sweep = Always hitting the guy. I feel I am getting the most of the build levels 13-15 are alittle iffy but I supposeI could take either Stonelord or 2 more levels of fighter and simply taking the 4th level of knight to ignore all penalties for wearing medium armor, which by that late of a level I plan on wearing either mithral full plate or adamantine breastplate
ThaiGQ 05-29-07, 06:28 AM	Stats: Str: 16 Dex:10 Con:14 Int: 14 Wis:12 Cha:8 With these stats, you won't be able to optimize the use of Combat Reflexes (since your Dex is only 10, you'll still only have 1 AoO), which I think is quite important for a Spiked Chain build, or just about any build with a reach weapon for that matter. You could put stat bumps or buy stat boosting items for Dex, but I'd recommend starting with Dex of at least 12. *You could forgo the Combat Expertiese route, pick up Power Attack early and have two feats for things like Cleave and Reckless Rage. You could then swap the INT and WIS scores to shore up the Will save some more. You could later retrain cleave into Iron Will should you wish to look at Holy Liberator. If you really like it you could even delay Fighter 3&4 to take it earlier, though that would delay Weapon Spec and Mastery. Pious Templar is another route though it won't work with the spiked chain and a barbarian (as the deity in question is Lawful Neutral). Stunts: in any event select (in this order) the ones giving you Flurry of Strikes and then AOOs through Cover. -James But by forgoing Combat Expertise, you'd also give up Improved Trip which is what the build was designed to do (at least I think so). Also, if he was planning on taking a level of Cleric in order to Enlarge himself and give himself 20' reach with a Spiked Chain, I think the Improved Trip route will be a lot more useful. Speaking of which, the loss of 1 BAB for a level of Cleric (with the appropriate domain) that would allow him to cast Enlarge Person on himself might not be such a bad idea. It would also allow him to use curing wands (a party can NEVER have too many people that can help with healing :D ) and potentially other wands with useful spells as well. The 1 level of Cleric would also boost up his Will and Fort saves by +2 at the cost of 1 BAB which may not be too much of a loss if he's planning on doing battlefield control and only needs to make a melee touch attack anyways.
_metz_ 05-29-07, 09:22 AM	With these stats, you won't be able to optimize the use of Combat Reflexes (since your Dex is only 10, you'll still only have 1 AoO), which I think is quite important for a Spiked Chain build, or just about any build with a reach weapon for that matter. You could put stat bumps or buy stat boosting items for Dex, but I'd recommend starting with Dex of at least 12. But by forgoing Combat Expertise, you'd also give up Improved Trip which is what the build was designed to do (at least I think so). Also, if he was planning on taking a level of Cleric in order to Enlarge himself and give himself 20' reach with a Spiked Chain, I think the Improved Trip route will be a lot more useful. Speaking of which, the loss of 1 BAB for a level of Cleric (with the appropriate domain) that would allow him to cast Enlarge Person on himself might not be such a bad idea. It would also allow him to use curing wands (a party can NEVER have too many people that can help with healing :D ) and potentially other wands with useful spells as well. The 1 level of Cleric would also boost up his Will and Fort saves by +2 at the cost of 1 BAB which may not be too much of a loss if he's planning on doing battlefield control and only needs to make a melee touch attack anyways. Only problem is now he has to have wisdom as well as int, dex str and con. Too many stats for a spiked chain fighter. Also a level of cleric means lost feats... and enlarge is a full round action so even with a scroll, its a move action to find it, and then a full round to cast. By then you have usually already been charged. Better to have good use of his existing range than needlessly increasing it. Whats the point of range 20 if you can't Whirlwind attack, (need dex 13) or have any AoOs on people moving through it? Enlarge is something AWESOME for properly built chain fighters. Having a non properly built chain fighter with enlarge that they can cast by themselves is NOT as useful.
ThaiGQ 05-29-07, 12:06 PM	Only problem is now he has to have wisdom as well as int, dex str and con. Too many stats for a spiked chain fighter. Also a level of cleric means lost feats... and enlarge is a full round action so even with a scroll, its a move action to find it, and then a full round to cast. By then you have usually already been charged. Better to have good use of his existing range than needlessly increasing it. Whats the point of range 20 if you can't Whirlwind attack, (need dex 13) or have any AoOs on people moving through it? Enlarge is something AWESOME for properly built chain fighters. Having a non properly built chain fighter with enlarge that they can cast by themselves is NOT as useful. Well, I wasn't really suggesting that he actually put stat points into Wis, but rather just for the ability to use wands (since that's what the original poster was talking about). But point well taken, Enlarge Person is a full-round action, so casting it on yourself may not be the best idea.
JamesMaissen 05-29-07, 03:34 PM	But by forgoing Combat Expertise, you'd also give up Improved Trip which is what the build was designed to do (at least I think so). Also, if he was planning on taking a level of Cleric in order to Enlarge himself and give himself 20' reach with a Spiked Chain, I think the Improved Trip route will be a lot more useful. Improved Trip is nice, but it's two feats and 6 stat points into INT. That's a large investment. For the same stat investment and feats you can up the WILL save by 3 from stats alone, get into PrCs that give WIS based casting and further favor WILL saves. Also most newbies will tend to overuse things like Trip when they get the improved trip follow up attack. Better to do more damage and have trip as an option to use when it's the right time. Likewise a simple disarm might prove the better option for them, but with Improved Trip staring at them they are less likely to consider it. Speaking of which, the loss of 1 BAB for a level of Cleric (with the appropriate domain) that would allow him to cast Enlarge Person on himself might not be such a bad idea. The 1 level of Cleric would be mostly dead for him. It would not scale up with levels and that's a danger. If he's investing in WIS for this then he's going to be lowering STR for it as well as possibly DEX. It's too much. That's not considering the issue of taking 1 round to cast the spell during which he's not even threatening his squares. Don't try to do too many things the first time out or you will wind up doing nothing well. -James
clannagh 05-31-07, 03:10 AM	on a slightly off-topic question does having a spell on your domain list as a cleric actually qualify you to use a wand ???
_metz_ 05-31-07, 03:22 AM	Wands use the spell trigger activation method. Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spell casting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Enlarge is on that cleric's spell list. Just by Domain rules can only prepare it as a domain slot. If you can cast a spell - it is therefore on your list A character can only cast spells on their spell list.. (note I said SPELL not spell like ability, supernatural ability, etc) Note it doesn't say class spell list either. I have been using scrolls/wands of enlarge with a strength domain cleric for a while now, and have had no issues with it. (GMs have often been triad) so I don't expect any Table Variation in Ratik on this.
clannagh 05-31-07, 07:37 PM	I have been using scrolls/wands of enlarge with a strength domain cleric for a while now, and have had no issues with it. (GMs have often been triad) so I don't expect any Table Variation in Ratik on this. I am happy for you that you get to play games DMed by triad and that solves all your rules questions for you :)
JamesMaissen 05-31-07, 07:57 PM	on a slightly off-topic question does having a spell on your domain list as a cleric actually qualify you to use a wand ??? Yes, domain spells are part of your spell list. You cannot memorize them with normal cleric spell slots, but they are spells that you can cast. -James
_metz_ 06-01-07, 02:12 AM	I am happy for you that you get to play games DMed by triad and that solves all your rules questions for you :) Well I didn't just assume I could. I still looked it up, prior to doing it. (In other words when I saw new LGCS) All I am saying with that last statement is that it is legal based on that arguement, and if there is some arguement against it, I have personally witnessed triad precedent allowing it in Ratik. (Yay Wes) Knowing you are in the Ratik region I felt this may be helpful to you, take it as you will. :)
LeeShort 06-01-07, 03:48 PM	Wands use the spell trigger activation method. Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spell casting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Enlarge is on that cleric's spell list. Just by Domain rules can only prepare it as a domain slot. If you can cast a spell - it is therefore on your list A character can only cast spells on their spell list.. (note I said SPELL not spell like ability, supernatural ability, etc) Note it doesn't say class spell list either. I have been using scrolls/wands of enlarge with a strength domain cleric for a while now, and have had no issues with it. (GMs have often been triad) so I don't expect any Table Variation in Ratik on this. Agreed that you can use a wand, but I don't think you can use a scroll. Scrolls are Spell Completion items, not Spell Trigger items. As Spell Completion items, I'm pretty sure that arcane scrolls of enlarge cannot be used by divine casters without UMD (though I do not have reference materials handy). I'm quite certain that the only scrolls of enlarge with open access are arcane scrolls. So unless you have unusual access, I think that both you and your Triad have been in error here. I certainly know that both I and my triad have denied my strength domain cleric the use of enlarge scrolls (came up at a table where one of the players said "can't you just buy scrolls?" and I said No and the triad backed my position).
LeeShort 06-01-07, 03:50 PM	Something else to keep in mind is that you need 15 dex to keep your Combat Reflexes when you're enlarged.
_metz_ 06-01-07, 04:06 PM	Agreed that you can use a wand, but I don't think you can use a scroll. Scrolls are Spell Completion items, not Spell Trigger items. As Spell Completion items, I'm pretty sure that arcane scrolls of enlarge cannot be used by divine casters without UMD (though I do not have reference materials handy). I'm quite certain that the only scrolls of enlarge with open access are arcane scrolls. So unless you have unusual access, I think that both you and your Triad have been in error here. I certainly know that both I and my triad have denied my strength domain cleric the use of enlarge scrolls (came up at a table where one of the players said "can't you just buy scrolls?" and I said No and the triad backed my position). Yes but a cleric with the Strength domain could scribe/cast a scroll that is divine no? - SCRIBE SCROLL [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 1st. Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. ANY SPELL YOU KNOW. - ANY. In the DMG after divine scrolls there is the following reference to the table: "Many spells are either arcane or divine, depending on the class of the caster. Such spells appear on both lists at the level appropriate to the class of the arcane or divine caster." This is a direct subsection of the table section, and is referring to the table. As the LGCS says any open spell from these tables (and the exception to the bottom says that the spells can appear on both and just insert them if they do) then you can purchase them. If you say you can't I am not sure what precedent you are going with here. Sure they aren't specifically named on the table, but there is a clear passage explaining that they do feature.
JamesMaissen 06-01-07, 05:24 PM	Something else to keep in mind is that you need 15 dex to keep your Combat Reflexes when you're enlarged. Combat Reflexes doesn't have a min Dex requirement. -James
Timlagor 06-01-07, 10:21 PM	They can Scribe such a scroll if they have the Feat. They can also cast one if they have access to buy it. -if the scroll doesn't actually appear on the table then you can't buy it without an AR (or other specific documentation) -I agree that it's stupid but that's the rule.
_metz_ 06-02-07, 01:17 AM	But there is a piece of writing at the bottom of the table saying it does! just that you insert it if it is available for both dependent on class Saying it is therefore NOT on the table is not following the spirit OR the letter fo the rules. In any case I will ask Britt.
LeeShort 06-02-07, 08:13 PM	But there is a piece of writing at the bottom of the table saying it does! just that you insert it if it is available for both dependent on class That's not at all my interpretation of that text. As I read it, it's only saying that sometimes scrolls of the same spell will be for sale as 2nd level arcane scrolls and 3rd level divine scrolls because the spells is a 2nd level arcane spells and 3rd level divine spell. Like, say, darkvision. But there are certainly examples of spells showing up on both the arcane and divine scroll lists in the DMG at the same level and same price. Obscuring Mist, for example. I don't see any text that says (to me) anything at all like "insert missing scrolls onto the list." What I instead see is a simple falsehood -- "Such spells appear on both lists at the level appropriate to the class of the arcane or divine caster" -- which is simply not true, if only because it is poorly phrased. My reading is that he meant to say "Such spells MAY appear on both lists at the level . . ." or "WHEN SUCH SPELLS APPEAR ON BOTH LISTS, they are at the level appropriate to the class of the arcane or divine caster." But no strictly literal interpretation of that text makes any sense. So we can only wait on an official ruling and see what it says.
LeeShort 06-02-07, 08:15 PM	Combat Reflexes doesn't have a min Dex requirement. -James You're so right! I've been cheating myself for levels now! :weep: