Challenge: Arcane Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge: Arcane Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
amnuxoll
04-25-07, 04:16 PM Here's my challenge for all of you character build experts: Design the most effective PC you can who takes the Arcane Disciple Feat at least twice.

:AMN:
Mommy was an Orc
04-25-07, 04:25 PM I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here.

Warmage or Beguiler builds that use it to vastly expand their spell selection. Two seems to be the optimal limit as more than that tends to be less powerful(though more fun)

My Beguiler in play has Healing and will eventually have 3 of the following 4:
Purification
Sun
Good
Healing

Haven't yet decided whether or not I'll keep Healing longterm as I'll just use UMD at some point. Though I might take all 4. It isn't necessarily optimal - it just makes perfect roleplaying sense.
bitznarf
04-25-07, 04:28 PM I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here.
Hmm, I quite like the look of this too... Now how to combine it with the Tank Cleric idea and get something that is a cleric/arcane gish without totally ruining the concept due to being spread too thin.
magebeast
04-25-07, 04:57 PM I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here.

You can only memorize one Arcane Discipled spell per spell level, so you have to pearl it out regardless.

I tried to build a Gish recently with this, but the issue is that you also have to have the Wisdom to cast the spell in addition to your primary caster stat, so if you're doing any Melee at all you're looking at a huge spread of important stats.
Mommy was an Orc
04-25-07, 04:58 PM Hmm, I quite like the look of this too... Now how to combine it with the Tank Cleric idea and get something that is a cleric/arcane gish without totally ruining the concept due to being spread too thin.

That becomes a problem because only Clangeddin Silverbeard and Joramy have both the Competition and War domains. A Dwarven version of the build is pretty natural, but all the rest of his domains aren't very healing oriented and UMD will be difficult.
Hariman
04-25-07, 08:35 PM You can only memorize one Arcane Discipled spell per spell level, so you have to pearl it out regardless.

I tried to build a Gish recently with this, but the issue is that you also have to have the Wisdom to cast the spell in addition to your primary caster stat, so if you're doing any Melee at all you're looking at a huge spread of important stats.

But if you have Arcane Disciple twice, and both domains have the same spell, then you can use it twice. This can make a huge difference if there are multiple encounters in a day.

As for the MAD problem, Weapon Finesse lets strength become a lower priority. And a 13 wisdom with a +6 periapt = wisdom 19. Although you probably want that +6 con instead.

The other problem is the fact that you want no more than a single round of buffing before you get into combat. Preferably only a swift action or two.
JamesMaissen
04-25-07, 08:48 PM Here's my challenge for all of you character build experts: Design the most effective PC you can who takes the Arcane Disciple Feat at least twice.

:AMN:

Grey Elf Wizard going into War Weaver (then whereever).

Str 06
Int 18
Wis 15
Dex 10
Con 14
Cha 08

Feats:
1st Enlarge Spell
1st Scribe Scroll
3rd Healing Domain
5th Craft Wonderous Item
6th Spontaneous Healer
9th 2nd Arcane Disciple Feat (to taste)

Now you will need access to WarWeaver, but it's doable. You loose 1 casting level, but seems to work as a support caster.

-James
magebeast
04-25-07, 10:49 PM But if you have Arcane Disciple twice, and both domains have the same spell, then you can use it twice. This can make a huge difference if there are multiple encounters in a day.

I'm not sure that I agree with this assessment. I think that you get one domain spell per level, regardless of the number of times you take the feat. However, the feat remains open to interpretation so I would give the standard "expect table variation."
Maesto
04-26-07, 12:50 AM I know this was argued previously, but I thought that the wording of arcane disciple was such that pearls didn't work for it?
nobodez
04-26-07, 01:22 AM I know this was argued previously, but I thought that the wording of arcane disciple was such that pearls didn't work for it?

If you're a spontaneous caster, no matter how many momento magicas (or however you spell it) you use, you can only cast it once, but if you use a pearl to recover the prepared spell you should be golden, since "you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level", and since you've only prepared it once (but cast it multiple times from a pearl recovery), you're still within the RAW, as well I believe the RAI (since clerics can recover spent domain spells).

As for the question of the OP, I'm building a Beguiler of Zodal, and she's gonna take the Healing AD and probably the Protection AD. She's going to be an Anti-Bard, being a better mutt than a bard is (real rogue skills, save or "dies" like a wizard, and healing and buffing a bit like a cleric), but without all that darned singing. I'm going to start her at WiCoU this weekend. Probably go a reasonable amount of beguiler before PrCing out into something good.
Mommy was an Orc
04-26-07, 01:23 PM I'm not sure that I agree with this assessment. I think that you get one domain spell per level, regardless of the number of times you take the feat. However, the feat remains open to interpretation so I would give the standard "expect table variation."

Given how domains work with arcane casters, I'd easily say that they're intended to work differently than that. Especially from a spirit of the rules point of view - if there was such an obvious conflict from taking Arcane Disciple twice(as they do mention you can take it more than once), the Special area would be the logical place to have said something along the lines of:
"Despite having the feat twice, you may only cast one domain spell of any given particular level <insert example here>"
evilaustintom
04-26-07, 01:46 PM My Beguiler in play has Healing and will eventually have 3 of the following 4:
Purification
Sun
Good
Healing

Haven't yet decided whether or not I'll keep Healing longterm as I'll just use UMD at some point. Though I might take all 4. It isn't necessarily optimal - it just makes perfect roleplaying sense.
With the healing domain, you could also take spontaneous healer. Just a thought.

As for other ideas with two arcane disciple feats...you can pull off a warmage who can go into initiate of the 7-fold veil (only a few domains will get you the requirements, though). Of course, it's a high-level p-class, so that may not be what you're looking for.

Tom Thowe
amnuxoll
04-27-07, 09:55 AM The issue (for me) is that you have to have a high Wisdom to make it work which inevitably steals ability scores from physical stats. MWaO's build in particular seems to suffer from this. It leaves me wishing for an arcane caster pclass whose spellcasting stat is Wisdom but none such exists that I know of.

Second Question: Is Healing the only domain that offers access to a Cure X Wounds spell? I thought there was another one but I can't find it now.

:AMN:
Potato Weasel
04-27-07, 10:03 AM Isnt there one that gives the vigors instead? or have i just been up too long?
Mommy was an Orc
04-27-07, 11:03 AM The issue (for me) is that you have to have a high Wisdom to make it work which inevitably steals ability scores from physical stats. MWaO's build in particular seems to suffer from this. It leaves me wishing for an arcane caster pclass whose spellcasting stat is Wisdom but none such exists that I know of.

It isn't too horrible - you don't need Dex if you take Still Spell and Still Spell any spell with a Somatic component...if you're the same level as APL and the party is tank heavy, you take off your armor and be the primary arcanist.

Along the lines of:
Dwarf
Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 6
1: Fighter 1: Power Attack, Still Spell
2: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
3: Wizard 2: Arcane Disciple(War)
4: Wizard 3: Int 17
5: Wizard 4
6: Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item, Skill Focus(Know: Religion)
7: Wizard 6
8: Spellsword 1: Int 18
9: Loremaster 1: Arcane Strike: +2 Fort Saves
10: Loremaster 2
11: Loremaster 3: Quicken Spell(with Int Headband - doesn't really matter if you can't use this secret if the Headband isn't working for some reason...)
12: Loremaster 4: Arcane Disciple(Competition): Int 19
13: Loremaster 5: +1 to attack rolls
14: Loremaster 6
15: Loremaster 7: +2 to Reflex Saves: ?

Wield a nice Dwarven Waraxe, wear Heavy Plate, and go to town. Good spell choices, due to lack of Somatic component or duration are:
1: True Strike, Critical Strike, Master's Touch(if human)
2: Bladeweave, Blur, Sonic Weapon, False Life, See Invisibility
3: Displacement, Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, Magic Circle vs Evil
4: Dimension Door
5: Teleport, Overland Flight
6: Mass Suggestion

Zealot Pact can be fun - you craft a Wisdom Item, wear it when memorizing spells, then cast it, take it off and put the Con Amulet on...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amnuxoll 04-25-07, 04:16 PM	Here's my challenge for all of you character build experts: Design the most effective PC you can who takes the Arcane Disciple Feat at least twice. :AMN:
Mommy was an Orc 04-25-07, 04:25 PM	I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here. Warmage or Beguiler builds that use it to vastly expand their spell selection. Two seems to be the optimal limit as more than that tends to be less powerful(though more fun) My Beguiler in play has Healing and will eventually have 3 of the following 4: Purification Sun Good Healing Haven't yet decided whether or not I'll keep Healing longterm as I'll just use UMD at some point. Though I might take all 4. It isn't necessarily optimal - it just makes perfect roleplaying sense.
bitznarf 04-25-07, 04:28 PM	I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here. Hmm, I quite like the look of this too... Now how to combine it with the Tank Cleric idea and get something that is a cleric/arcane gish without totally ruining the concept due to being spread too thin.
magebeast 04-25-07, 04:57 PM	I think the strongest builds are reasonably straightforward: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Full Caster PrC 7 where you take two domains that have Divine Power in them(so you don't typically have to Pearl it back - Divine Oracle and Loremaster both work very well in here. You can only memorize one Arcane Discipled spell per spell level, so you have to pearl it out regardless. I tried to build a Gish recently with this, but the issue is that you also have to have the Wisdom to cast the spell in addition to your primary caster stat, so if you're doing any Melee at all you're looking at a huge spread of important stats.
Mommy was an Orc 04-25-07, 04:58 PM	Hmm, I quite like the look of this too... Now how to combine it with the Tank Cleric idea and get something that is a cleric/arcane gish without totally ruining the concept due to being spread too thin. That becomes a problem because only Clangeddin Silverbeard and Joramy have both the Competition and War domains. A Dwarven version of the build is pretty natural, but all the rest of his domains aren't very healing oriented and UMD will be difficult.
Hariman 04-25-07, 08:35 PM	You can only memorize one Arcane Discipled spell per spell level, so you have to pearl it out regardless. I tried to build a Gish recently with this, but the issue is that you also have to have the Wisdom to cast the spell in addition to your primary caster stat, so if you're doing any Melee at all you're looking at a huge spread of important stats. But if you have Arcane Disciple twice, and both domains have the same spell, then you can use it twice. This can make a huge difference if there are multiple encounters in a day. As for the MAD problem, Weapon Finesse lets strength become a lower priority. And a 13 wisdom with a +6 periapt = wisdom 19. Although you probably want that +6 con instead. The other problem is the fact that you want no more than a single round of buffing before you get into combat. Preferably only a swift action or two.
JamesMaissen 04-25-07, 08:48 PM	Here's my challenge for all of you character build experts: Design the most effective PC you can who takes the Arcane Disciple Feat at least twice. :AMN: Grey Elf Wizard going into War Weaver (then whereever). Str 06 Int 18 Wis 15 Dex 10 Con 14 Cha 08 Feats: 1st Enlarge Spell 1st Scribe Scroll 3rd Healing Domain 5th Craft Wonderous Item 6th Spontaneous Healer 9th 2nd Arcane Disciple Feat (to taste) Now you will need access to WarWeaver, but it's doable. You loose 1 casting level, but seems to work as a support caster. -James
magebeast 04-25-07, 10:49 PM	But if you have Arcane Disciple twice, and both domains have the same spell, then you can use it twice. This can make a huge difference if there are multiple encounters in a day. I'm not sure that I agree with this assessment. I think that you get one domain spell per level, regardless of the number of times you take the feat. However, the feat remains open to interpretation so I would give the standard "expect table variation."
Maesto 04-26-07, 12:50 AM	I know this was argued previously, but I thought that the wording of arcane disciple was such that pearls didn't work for it?
nobodez 04-26-07, 01:22 AM	I know this was argued previously, but I thought that the wording of arcane disciple was such that pearls didn't work for it? If you're a spontaneous caster, no matter how many momento magicas (or however you spell it) you use, you can only cast it once, but if you use a pearl to recover the prepared spell you should be golden, since "you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level", and since you've only prepared it once (but cast it multiple times from a pearl recovery), you're still within the RAW, as well I believe the RAI (since clerics can recover spent domain spells). As for the question of the OP, I'm building a Beguiler of Zodal, and she's gonna take the Healing AD and probably the Protection AD. She's going to be an Anti-Bard, being a better mutt than a bard is (real rogue skills, save or "dies" like a wizard, and healing and buffing a bit like a cleric), but without all that darned singing. I'm going to start her at WiCoU this weekend. Probably go a reasonable amount of beguiler before PrCing out into something good.
Mommy was an Orc 04-26-07, 01:23 PM	I'm not sure that I agree with this assessment. I think that you get one domain spell per level, regardless of the number of times you take the feat. However, the feat remains open to interpretation so I would give the standard "expect table variation." Given how domains work with arcane casters, I'd easily say that they're intended to work differently than that. Especially from a spirit of the rules point of view - if there was such an obvious conflict from taking Arcane Disciple twice(as they do mention you can take it more than once), the Special area would be the logical place to have said something along the lines of: "Despite having the feat twice, you may only cast one domain spell of any given particular level <insert example here>"
evilaustintom 04-26-07, 01:46 PM	My Beguiler in play has Healing and will eventually have 3 of the following 4: Purification Sun Good Healing Haven't yet decided whether or not I'll keep Healing longterm as I'll just use UMD at some point. Though I might take all 4. It isn't necessarily optimal - it just makes perfect roleplaying sense. With the healing domain, you could also take spontaneous healer. Just a thought. As for other ideas with two arcane disciple feats...you can pull off a warmage who can go into initiate of the 7-fold veil (only a few domains will get you the requirements, though). Of course, it's a high-level p-class, so that may not be what you're looking for. Tom Thowe
amnuxoll 04-27-07, 09:55 AM	The issue (for me) is that you have to have a high Wisdom to make it work which inevitably steals ability scores from physical stats. MWaO's build in particular seems to suffer from this. It leaves me wishing for an arcane caster pclass whose spellcasting stat is Wisdom but none such exists that I know of. Second Question: Is Healing the only domain that offers access to a Cure X Wounds spell? I thought there was another one but I can't find it now. :AMN:
Potato Weasel 04-27-07, 10:03 AM	Isnt there one that gives the vigors instead? or have i just been up too long?
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 11:03 AM	The issue (for me) is that you have to have a high Wisdom to make it work which inevitably steals ability scores from physical stats. MWaO's build in particular seems to suffer from this. It leaves me wishing for an arcane caster pclass whose spellcasting stat is Wisdom but none such exists that I know of. It isn't too horrible - you don't need Dex if you take Still Spell and Still Spell any spell with a Somatic component...if you're the same level as APL and the party is tank heavy, you take off your armor and be the primary arcanist. Along the lines of: Dwarf Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Fighter 1: Power Attack, Still Spell 2: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll 3: Wizard 2: Arcane Disciple(War) 4: Wizard 3: Int 17 5: Wizard 4 6: Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item, Skill Focus(Know: Religion) 7: Wizard 6 8: Spellsword 1: Int 18 9: Loremaster 1: Arcane Strike: +2 Fort Saves 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Quicken Spell(with Int Headband - doesn't really matter if you can't use this secret if the Headband isn't working for some reason...) 12: Loremaster 4: Arcane Disciple(Competition): Int 19 13: Loremaster 5: +1 to attack rolls 14: Loremaster 6 15: Loremaster 7: +2 to Reflex Saves: ? Wield a nice Dwarven Waraxe, wear Heavy Plate, and go to town. Good spell choices, due to lack of Somatic component or duration are: 1: True Strike, Critical Strike, Master's Touch(if human) 2: Bladeweave, Blur, Sonic Weapon, False Life, See Invisibility 3: Displacement, Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, Magic Circle vs Evil 4: Dimension Door 5: Teleport, Overland Flight 6: Mass Suggestion Zealot Pact can be fun - you craft a Wisdom Item, wear it when memorizing spells, then cast it, take it off and put the Con Amulet on...