Charger advice for APL 10+ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charger advice for APL 10+ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
paigeoliver
04-08-07, 12:40 AM I have a highly focused charging character that I have been playing for a while. I should end the year at 9th level (still have the last round of red hand of doom to go).

I was originally working towards a single level beastmaster build to get a dire bat mount, but I just kept dying. I died 3 times so far. And in the end I started taking Outcast champion levels rather than beastmaster levels, because every time I would get close to that darn bat I would just die.

For APL 10+ would I be better off with a Dire bat mount for flying action, or I could just purchase the stone horse I have access to. I have tunnel riding, so squeezing isn't nearly as much of a problem for me than it is for most riding characters. I also spent a bit of GP and a couple time units for access to powerful charge a while back. I know that doesn't work mounted, but it might be good for when I am stuck unmounted.

I am a high str, high charisma half-orc (originally human), Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/ Marshall 2/ Outcast champion X. Charging marshall aura. Spirited charge, tunnel riding and power attack.

I am kind of thinking at this point if I take the beastmaster level and get the bat that it will just die left and right and I will be left unmounted. I do want to take the entire Outcast Champion class because I figure it is a no-brainer for an 18 charisma half-orc.

The characters damage output is very intense, but she is really a glass hammer. I have yet to ever survive a full round attack from a big nasty beast (just got my CON up to 12 today with a con amulet).

Any suggestions for the high level action? I do have access to powerful charge, all kinds of stone horses, horseshoes of speed and zephyr, and I have a certed warhorse with about 60 hit points, and people who are far into red hand should know about some other access I might have. Paladin levels are out of the question as the character is true neutral and RP-wise is more concerned with her reputation than she is about doing the right thing.
kjenks
04-08-07, 02:35 PM First of all, with a low Con, you shouldn't be standing around, absorbing full attacks. There are lots of tricks for avoiding that situation after a mounted charge.

Fall off your horse. You need to make a Ride check, DC 5, to avoid falling off your mount if you take damage. After you get +4 or more in Ride, this skill check is so easy to make that you may have forgotten that you even need to make it. But you could voluntarily fail it. So if you're faced with a full attack, when the first attack hits you, voluntarily fall off your mount, then make the DC 15 Ride check to Soft Fall. Depending on how the DM resolves where you end up after falling off, you could be on the other side of your mount from that attacker so he can't reach you.

Coordinate actions with your sorcerer cohort. Creatively use the Delay tactic. After your mounted charge attack, your sorcerer buddy can move in, cast Dimension Door, and whisk you and your mount to a new location where you can (hopefully) make another charge the next round. If you can't have a sorcerer cohort with DDoor, a friend with a Cape of the Mountebank can do this, too. Consider a raven familiar.

You have the Ride-by Attack feat. Use it so your enemies are not within full attack range. This is easier if your mount can fly (which is probably why you want the dire bat), so until you can upgrade to dire bat, get a buddy to cast Fly on your horse. Or cast it yourself, if your Outcast Champion has the Travel domain.

If you can't do any of these things, try this one: Don't charge. Just ready an action to hit an opponent if one is within reach. Then have your horse move near your enemy, within lance range, then move away from him, out of full attack range. The mount's movement triggers your readied action, so you get a single attack (not a charge attack) somewhere in the middle of the mount's movement, but you don't end up in a position where your opponent can take a 5 ft step and make a full attack on you. If your foe has reach too, he might get an AoO on you and/or your horse, but that's better than sitting still for a full attack.
Southernskies
04-09-07, 08:05 AM Just ready an action to hit an opponent if one is within reach. Then have your horse move near your enemy, within lance range, then move away from him, out of full attack range. The mount's movement triggers your readied action, so you get a single attack (not a charge attack) somewhere in the middle of the mount's movement, but you don't end up in a position where your opponent can take a 5 ft step and make a full attack on you. If your foe has reach too, he might get an AoO on you and/or your horse, but that's better than sitting still for a full attack.

Thats called "spring attack" in my book.
kjenks
04-09-07, 08:08 AM It doesn't protect anybody from an AoO, so it's not really a Spring Attack.
JamesMaissen
04-09-07, 09:28 AM It doesn't protect anybody from an AoO, so it's not really a Spring Attack.

However since what you are riding is something on your initiative and directed by you, I think it's not kosher.

If the mount were intelligent and went on its own initiative, etc so that it was merely carrying you around rather than working as the horse and rider team that would be one thing, but it seems as if you are trying to get the best of both worlds there.

-James
bitznarf
04-09-07, 11:23 AM The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn.
clannagh
04-11-07, 02:59 AM The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn.

Indeed.

Clearly a Paladin Special mount is not an issue here as such a mount is intelligent enough to follow commands like "commence a fly by next round and continue to fly-by-attack until i tell you otherwise".

The question is whether a normal mount with the attack trick could reasonably be expected to continue attacking after the first fly-by or not.
kjenks
04-11-07, 11:08 AM The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn.

On further investigation, this may indeed be a problem with my ready-ride-attack-ride tactic. I'll have to look into it further tonight.

But whether or not your mount is intelligent seems to have no bearing here. Your mount acts on your initiative, regardless of how smart it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paigeoliver 04-08-07, 12:40 AM	I have a highly focused charging character that I have been playing for a while. I should end the year at 9th level (still have the last round of red hand of doom to go). I was originally working towards a single level beastmaster build to get a dire bat mount, but I just kept dying. I died 3 times so far. And in the end I started taking Outcast champion levels rather than beastmaster levels, because every time I would get close to that darn bat I would just die. For APL 10+ would I be better off with a Dire bat mount for flying action, or I could just purchase the stone horse I have access to. I have tunnel riding, so squeezing isn't nearly as much of a problem for me than it is for most riding characters. I also spent a bit of GP and a couple time units for access to powerful charge a while back. I know that doesn't work mounted, but it might be good for when I am stuck unmounted. I am a high str, high charisma half-orc (originally human), Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/ Marshall 2/ Outcast champion X. Charging marshall aura. Spirited charge, tunnel riding and power attack. I am kind of thinking at this point if I take the beastmaster level and get the bat that it will just die left and right and I will be left unmounted. I do want to take the entire Outcast Champion class because I figure it is a no-brainer for an 18 charisma half-orc. The characters damage output is very intense, but she is really a glass hammer. I have yet to ever survive a full round attack from a big nasty beast (just got my CON up to 12 today with a con amulet). Any suggestions for the high level action? I do have access to powerful charge, all kinds of stone horses, horseshoes of speed and zephyr, and I have a certed warhorse with about 60 hit points, and people who are far into red hand should know about some other access I might have. Paladin levels are out of the question as the character is true neutral and RP-wise is more concerned with her reputation than she is about doing the right thing.
kjenks 04-08-07, 02:35 PM	First of all, with a low Con, you shouldn't be standing around, absorbing full attacks. There are lots of tricks for avoiding that situation after a mounted charge. Fall off your horse. You need to make a Ride check, DC 5, to avoid falling off your mount if you take damage. After you get +4 or more in Ride, this skill check is so easy to make that you may have forgotten that you even need to make it. But you could voluntarily fail it. So if you're faced with a full attack, when the first attack hits you, voluntarily fall off your mount, then make the DC 15 Ride check to Soft Fall. Depending on how the DM resolves where you end up after falling off, you could be on the other side of your mount from that attacker so he can't reach you. Coordinate actions with your sorcerer cohort. Creatively use the Delay tactic. After your mounted charge attack, your sorcerer buddy can move in, cast Dimension Door, and whisk you and your mount to a new location where you can (hopefully) make another charge the next round. If you can't have a sorcerer cohort with DDoor, a friend with a Cape of the Mountebank can do this, too. Consider a raven familiar. You have the Ride-by Attack feat. Use it so your enemies are not within full attack range. This is easier if your mount can fly (which is probably why you want the dire bat), so until you can upgrade to dire bat, get a buddy to cast Fly on your horse. Or cast it yourself, if your Outcast Champion has the Travel domain. If you can't do any of these things, try this one: Don't charge. Just ready an action to hit an opponent if one is within reach. Then have your horse move near your enemy, within lance range, then move away from him, out of full attack range. The mount's movement triggers your readied action, so you get a single attack (not a charge attack) somewhere in the middle of the mount's movement, but you don't end up in a position where your opponent can take a 5 ft step and make a full attack on you. If your foe has reach too, he might get an AoO on you and/or your horse, but that's better than sitting still for a full attack.
Southernskies 04-09-07, 08:05 AM	Just ready an action to hit an opponent if one is within reach. Then have your horse move near your enemy, within lance range, then move away from him, out of full attack range. The mount's movement triggers your readied action, so you get a single attack (not a charge attack) somewhere in the middle of the mount's movement, but you don't end up in a position where your opponent can take a 5 ft step and make a full attack on you. If your foe has reach too, he might get an AoO on you and/or your horse, but that's better than sitting still for a full attack. Thats called "spring attack" in my book.
kjenks 04-09-07, 08:08 AM	It doesn't protect anybody from an AoO, so it's not really a Spring Attack.
JamesMaissen 04-09-07, 09:28 AM	It doesn't protect anybody from an AoO, so it's not really a Spring Attack. However since what you are riding is something on your initiative and directed by you, I think it's not kosher. If the mount were intelligent and went on its own initiative, etc so that it was merely carrying you around rather than working as the horse and rider team that would be one thing, but it seems as if you are trying to get the best of both worlds there. -James
bitznarf 04-09-07, 11:23 AM	The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn.
clannagh 04-11-07, 02:59 AM	The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn. Indeed. Clearly a Paladin Special mount is not an issue here as such a mount is intelligent enough to follow commands like "commence a fly by next round and continue to fly-by-attack until i tell you otherwise". The question is whether a normal mount with the attack trick could reasonably be expected to continue attacking after the first fly-by or not.
kjenks 04-11-07, 11:08 AM	The problem appears when you consider that once you have readied your action, your turn ends, you cannot still guide your mount as it is no longer your turn. On further investigation, this may indeed be a problem with my ready-ride-attack-ride tactic. I'll have to look into it further tonight. But whether or not your mount is intelligent seems to have no bearing here. Your mount acts on your initiative, regardless of how smart it is.