Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 01-11-07, 03:52 PM	I'm at an impasse. Is that how you spell that? O.o;; Anyways, my cleric has finally reached 12th level. He's been full caster all 12 levels. Right now, his actual clas make up is Cleric 7/Church Inquisitor 4. That's what I have right now. However, I have leveled up. And I don't know where I want to go with it. :P I would like to continue to full-cast, as it's my only saving grace right now. But, it just seems like I'm being beaten out on damage, casting, and even support. Here's the build I have and the feats I've taken: Human Rhennee Cleric of Heironeous, L/G Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 18 Cha: 12 1st: Skill Focus (Consentration), Metamagic (Maximize) 3rd: Divine Metamagic (Maximize) 6th: Extra Turning 9th: Extra Turning I took maximize because I hate rolling low on things that matter, like healing. If I have to keep the BDF up, and I end up rolling all ones on my Cure Serious...that's a bad thing. This way, I know that I can heal for a large amount of damage all the time, at least 3 times per day. But, looking back on it now, I could and should have taken something else. I wanted to be the armored ambulance. The one that rushes up into battle, casts defensively all the time, and can even hold his own in a fight. Somewhat. But constantly, I'm being shown how much I really do suck. -.-;; So I need some help. What should I take for his 12th level and next feat? The ability score is going into Wis, obviously, to get it up to 19. Or...am I just tanked on this cleric? Should I put him away for early retirement?
Mommy was an Orc 01-11-07, 04:23 PM	Doesn't seem to be anything horrible about the build other than that Skill Focus(Concentration) probably isn't all that useful. Your equipment, spell choice, or tactics might be a little off. Something to consider is either Divine Spellpower, Domain Spont, or Craft Wondrous probably all would do something for you.
copper_wyrmling 01-11-07, 04:25 PM	But, looking back on it now, I could and should have taken something else. I wanted to be the armored ambulance. The one that rushes up into battle, casts defensively all the time, and can even hold his own in a fight. Somewhat. But constantly, I'm being shown how much I really do suck. -.-;; So I need some help. What should I take for his 12th level and next feat? The ability score is going into Wis, obviously, to get it up to 19. Or...am I just tanked on this cleric? Should I put him away for early retirement? Sometimes I feel like I'm not playing the same game as other people on these boards... people show up with builds that I would consider eminently playable and strong, and say that they're considering early retirement for the PC. How can you feel useless with a full-casting cleric? My cleric blew two feats on two-weapon fighting (with a spiked quarterstaff) for style reasons, has one of the silliest point-buys you will ever see on a divine caster (not my fault: this was my first D&D character and I was not the one who built her), and having full cleric casting STILL makes her one of the more powerful party members at pretty much all her tables. I strongly suspect that your issue is with your spell selection. At APL 14, if you have APL-appropriate BDFs, any in-combat healing that's not Heal is usually a wasted action, and it's starting to go that way even at APL 12. Also, by that APL there's a HUGE gap between a real fighter and a cleric with Divine Power but no combat-related feats: unless the rest of the party is buffing you, don't try to play tank at this APL (and really, if you want to play tank at all with this build, you need Power Attack). However, you now have sixth-level spells. Sixth-level spells are the bomb. You might try thinking of yourself as a primary spellcaster who can heal really well in an emergency, play tank if absolutely needed, give the party healing and long-lasting immunities and buffs outside combat, and in combat, you either buff the party and watch them play or you kill / disable everything with your boom spells. I mean... you have the equivalent of Sudden Maximize 3/day. You have Heal for undead, Maximized Bolt of Glory for evil outsiders / undead, and Harm / Maximized Flamestrike / Maximized Blade Barrier for everything else (and that's just damage... you have other tricks as well, although without knowing your domains it's hard to know what exactly). Your base Wisdom is pretty good - what stat-boosting items do you have? I assume those aren't your real stats, at APL 12 - if you still don't have any stat-boosters at this stage, then yeah, you need to buy some ;) Regarding durability, Magic Vestments on your armor and shield help, but so does killing the bad guys before they can kill you. Your best in-combat party buffs from the Core list are probably Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation (both from the Spell Compendium: if you don't have it, BUY IT), plus maybe the L6 mass stat-boosters (but atm I wouldn't use your L6 slots on those). Out of combat, make sure you cast Heroes' Feast every day, and once you have some more L6 slots available, Energy Immunity and Wind Walk can be very handy too. For a L12 feat, my cleric has very much enjoyed having Quicken - two spells / round = good, even if one of them is just a quickened shield of faith on whoever needs it most. Divine Spellpower would let you cast your buffs at CL 16 which gives +4 Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapons, and it helps you get past SR as well - although unfortunately you can't use it in the same round as DMM (Maximize). As a church inquisitor your dispel checks are already pretty hot, and Divine Spellpower would help with that: CL20 Greater Dispels are rather cool at APL 12 (so long as you're the one casting them ;) ) You could take something like Augment Healing or Power Attack which would make you more of a "tank healer", but seriously, with your Wisdom and current feat selection, at APL 12+ you're better off as a primary caster. And of course, Craft Wondrous Item is always an excellent choice: I'm sure there are plenty of items that you want and don't have access to :) Hope that helps!
CrystalBlue 01-11-07, 04:42 PM	I really, really love this character. He's my main person and I want him to go even beyond retirement. But you're right, my main problem is seeing the huge f-off builds that everyone comes out with that do 120+ damage and leave my cleric going "....what now?" I feel increadably inadequete. I mean...the last Iuz I played, we played up to 14 and I was ready with everything. Recitation, getting ready for a Max Bolt of Glory...and then the fighter one-shots the EL 15 encounter and we keep walking. I was dumb-struck. This isn't the only time it's happened to me, either. I consistantly get left behind. At low APL's, people run around frantically going "Where's the healer! We need a healer! Help!!!" But at higher APLs....people walk tables without batting an eye. And clerics, like me, are left behind. We don't even get to do clean up duty. So, yeah...that's my main problem. I'm in the Shieldlands, as you can see by my sig, and I don't do jack or...that...other word. >.>;; I wanted to keep up with Church Inquisitor till the end, but I just am not appreciated anymore in the games that I play. And I don't know how to fix that... Oh, and my Domains are War, Glory, and Inquisition. Inquisition doesn't give me many domain spells that do anything...Glory's nice for Bolt of Glory...and War is always handy.
clannagh 01-11-07, 06:01 PM	I really, really love this character. He's my main person and I want him to go even beyond retirement. But you're right, my main problem is seeing the huge f-off builds that everyone comes out with that do 120+ damage and leave my cleric going "....what now?" I feel increadably inadequete. I mean...the last Iuz I played, we played up to 14 and I was ready with everything. Recitation, getting ready for a Max Bolt of Glory...and then the fighter one-shots the EL 15 encounter and we keep walking. I was dumb-struck. This isn't the only time it's happened to me, either. I consistantly get left behind. At low APL's, people run around frantically going "Where's the healer! We need a healer! Help!!!" But at higher APLs....people walk tables without batting an eye. And clerics, like me, are left behind. We don't even get to do clean up duty. So, yeah...that's my main problem. I'm in the Shieldlands, as you can see by my sig, and I don't do jack or...that...other word. >.>;; I wanted to keep up with Church Inquisitor till the end, but I just am not appreciated anymore in the games that I play. And I don't know how to fix that... Oh, and my Domains are War, Glory, and Inquisition. Inquisition doesn't give me many domain spells that do anything...Glory's nice for Bolt of Glory...and War is always handy. I get the distinct feeling you are trying to convert a buff healing cleric into a combat cleric in its last three levels ? Here is another way to think about it .. "my local party is already pretty on top of combat so they do not need another melee monster and I am pretty safe from die-ing when they flatten everything .. sooooo ... what funky and unusual non combat and support things can I do ???"
cycloptic_squirrel 01-11-07, 06:16 PM	I'm very curious to see a quick list of items and cash available, if you're comfortable with that. I can't see any item stat boosters on your array, and if you're missing those, there might be another hole in your 'fantastic outfit of hot summer fashions!' (sorry) For your feat I'd grab craft wondrous and craft me one o' dem string of prayerbeads OF UBER DEATHCHEEZE! (sorry) With one of those babies you boost your firepower or better yet, long term buffing. Imagine pouring on +4 weapon enhancements that last all day. Or combine with a lesser rod of extend and get 5 hour magic circles or +4 armor enhancements that last until sundown the next day! (sorry) From what I can see, you actually have a pretty solid character. You want to continue in inquisitor. Go for it. As a full caster cleric you have amazing versatility, allowing you to fill any gap that might be present at a table. You're not able to out-fight the sword monkey or out-blast the cheezed warmage, but you shouldn't be able to; then they'd feel redundant. You're still solid in those roles (especially with the holy sword and maximize), just not obscene. I think your idea of an armored ambulance is still valid. It just takes the right combination of items that once assembled shall make yea as invincible as your puny god HIMSELF! :evillaugh (OK I'm done now):allalone:
LachlarlanIII 01-11-07, 09:49 PM	What Domains do you have? Obviously Inquisition is one of them, but what of the others?
CrystalBlue 01-12-07, 08:37 AM	I listed my domains above, but I'll do so again. And I'll list my items and converted stats. Human (Rhenne) Cleric of Heironeous (War, Glory, Inquisition) Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 23 Cha: 14 Weapons: Sword of Ghettedon (+2 Holy Adamantine Longsword), +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword, +1 Ghosttouch Longsword Armor: +1 Full Plate (of...shiny...ness?) Shield: Heavy Shield Ion Stones: I think I have one, but I don't remember what it was Head: Circlet of Persuassion Neck: Periapt of Wisdom +4 Chest: None Belt: Sash of the Healer (Empowers up to Cure Serious 3/day) Arms: None Boots: None Ring 1: None Ring 2: None I have so many open slots because...I just can't find access to anything good for my cleric. He get's hosed on access due to bad luck, I think. :( So far, I think I have 3,000 gp right now, and I play APL 12-14, so figure that kind of gold on a regular basis. And if you're gonna ask why I don't have any pearls of powers...it's because I got access to them way too late...and Pearls of Power I aren't gonna help my level 6 spells much. I did want to become a battle cleric at the beginning of this character, but I found him much better suited as a caster. The only problem is...I always get grouped with the parties that seem to have everything. Haste, Inspire Courage, everyone already has uber gear. I mean, I just looked up Righteous Wrath of the Faithful last night and it is a very kick-ass spell. Haste and +3 to attacks and damage that stacks nicely with things like Recitation. I'll have to start taking that. I'd like to take Quicken, but I don't know any spells at low levels enough that'll be good quickened spells.
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-07, 10:02 AM	Weapons: Sword of Ghettedon (+2 Holy Adamantine Longsword), +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword, +1 Ghosttouch Longsword Armor: +1 Full Plate (of...shiny...ness?) Shield: Heavy Shield Ion Stones: I think I have one, but I don't remember what it was Head: Circlet of Persuassion Neck: Periapt of Wisdom +4 Chest: None Belt: Sash of the Healer (Empowers up to Cure Serious 3/day) Arms: None Boots: None Ring 1: None Ring 2: None And if you're gonna ask why I don't have any pearls of powers...it's because I got access to them way too late...and Pearls of Power I aren't gonna help my level 6 spells much. Your equipment is the problem right there. You've spent more than 50K on a golfbag of melee weapons. Yet you have no feats that help you in melee, especially Power Attack. You don't have particularly good armor - yes, Magic Vestment will help, but...unless you have a couple of rounds to buff, it really isn't worth it for you. Even then, at APL 12, you're not going to be the best fighter in the group. Especially when buffs such as Haste and Bardsong are going off. When the primary fighters can afford to put an extra +5 into Power Attack and they've got some bardsong damage, that can easily equal an additional 50 hp of damage per round that you only do 6-9 hp of damage with... And Pearls of Power 1 are essential to what a Cleric does. You cast Lesser Vigor outside of combat and Pearl it back. Casting Heal for 120 hp outside of combat is a 6th level spell gone. Casting Lesser Vigor 8 times will heal the exact same amount of damage. If you have Craft Wondrous Item, the cost of that is 8K and 2 TU. That means you have more spells to cast *in* combat.
CrystalBlue 01-12-07, 10:50 AM	Then you need to tell me what spells, in combat, I should be casting. Because I just see my high-level spells being outclassed by wizards, sorcerers, and warmages (though, that's no surprise). And I bought all of those weapons out of necesity. No, I didn't need a +2 holy weapon. But someone in the group might. And I didn't need a +1 Ghosttouch weapon...but again, someone might. I found them and thought it might be good to use incase we run into ghosts and such. Taking a feat just so I can pearl back a lesser vigor? Then why don't I just take Scribe Scroll and start mass-producing lesser vigors. In the long run, it'll be much more expensive, but at least I have them when needed. There are only a few low level spells that are actually useful after the low levels, and cleric's get hosed on said spells. Things like Grease, Glitterdust, Invisability, Magic Missle, Shield...we don't get spells like that. Divine spells don't have the milage that arcane spells do. So to be effective, you have to take the higher level spells as damage ones and keep all your lower ones for healing. And this equates into every cleric and druid I know of clogging their low levels with Lesser Vigor, Circle of Lesser Vigor, and Vigor. That's great, but that's where I stop. I'm an out-of-combat healer with some moderate buff spells that might or might not get off in time. And if I cast, the bard will look at me, aggrivated that I just made him useless. At higher levels, a cleric loses the bang and has to turn into a doctor. That is, unless you're something that's cross classed or you're a strict combat cleric. As support...I just don't see my character going anywhere...
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-07, 11:41 AM	Then you need to tell me what spells, in combat, I should be casting. Because I just see my high-level spells being outclassed by wizards, sorcerers, and warmages (though, that's no surprise). And I bought all of those weapons out of decesity. No, I didn't need a +2 holy weapon. But someone in the group might. And I didn't need a +1 Ghosttouch weapon...but again, someone might. I found them and thought it might be good to use incase we run into ghosts and such. Copper gave you a pretty good list. You spent over 50K on the possibility that someone else might need one of those weapons. There's certainly times that it might be true. But that's more than half your cash spent on things you likely won't use in any given mod. Even worse, that +2 Holy Longsword is +2 - if you cast GMW on it, it becomes +3 whether or not it is +2 or +1. Taking a feat just so I can pearl back a lesser vigor? Then why don't I just take Scribe Scroll and start mass-producing lesser vigors. Because that's not just what you can be using it for - 4 TUs and 10K makes your Wisdom amulet +6, access or not. It doesn't matter how bad your access is right now, you can make a Stone of Good Luck, a Cloak of Resistance or Charisma, a Lantern of Revealing, Strand of Prayer Beads, or a Belt of Giant Strength, just to name a few. At 14th, you'll start being able to create all kinds of Ioun Stones if you want, a Portable Hole, etc... And this equates into every cleric and druid I know of clogging their low levels with Lesser Vigor, Circle of Lesser Vigor, and Vigor. That's great, but that's where I stop. No, just 1 Lesser Vigor. That's it. You get Pearls to get it back repeatedly. Buy them if you don't want the CWI feat. You don't memorize Circle or Vigor unless you really want to do so - the gold/hp cured ratio isn't good enough.
CrystalBlue 01-12-07, 12:10 PM	So I should just focus the rest of my time on creating items? I still don't see that working that well for me. I mean, I thought you needed access to any item you create. If you want a +6 stat item, you have to find it in a mod before you can create it. Same with prayer beads, portable hole, ect. So that means that I still have to get access to it. And that's going to be a load of exp that I'll be droping to make everything. And TU's...so my cleric's not going to be playing much anymore...
Mommy was an Orc 01-12-07, 12:20 PM	So I should just focus the rest of my time on creating items? I still don't see that working that well for me. I mean, I thought you needed access to any item you create. If you want a +6 stat item, you have to find it in a mod before you can create it. Same with prayer beads, portable hole, ect. So that means that I still have to get access to it. And that's going to be a load of exp that I'll be droping to make everything. And TU's...so my cleric's not going to be playing much anymore... No, if it is a DMG item and you're 2 caster levels above the necessary caster level, you can craft it. You're talking about retiring your character. Sacrificing maybe 15 TUs a year means you're still playing him pretty frequently.
CrystalBlue 01-12-07, 12:27 PM	Mur...I hope so...he's got a lot of meta-orgs. Orphanage of Critwall...Warrior of the Faith...Knight of the Holy Shielding... And how many items can you create after an adventure?
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 01:42 PM	I REALLY suggest reading the magic item creation rules in the LGCS. It's really one of the keys for having effective spellcasters. ALL of my spellcasters have an item crafting feat, and some will have two before they retire. Off the top of my head, you can craft anything you can afford. Expensive things just require more TUs. You have also spent a LOT of money on melee weapons. If that money were elsewhere, you would get a lot more use out of it. If you crafted the items yourself, that money would go twice as far. I'd sell two of your longswords, and re-invest the money. It's painful, but right now, that gold is doing you NOTHING. Getting half of it to be useful would be a blessing.
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 01:50 PM	And now, spellcasting. You have run into a common problem with LG clerics. At low levels, the job of the cleric is to restore hit points to the group. At high levels, the job of a cleric has changed, but no one ever tells you. The reason a cleric is useful to have, is because at APL 12, a lot can happen paralysis level drain ability drain petrification grappled entangled stunned poisoned diseased etc. Your job is to either prevent (or cure) these things, so that the characters who are designed to do damage, can. For example, your party is attacked by an invisible rogue. The wizard is badly hurt. Do you a) cast cure serious wounds, or b) cast invisibility purge? In my opinion, the correct answer is b. You'll run out of healing spells LONG before the rogue runs out of stabbing. And the invisibility purge allows the other five people to act effectively, instead of standing around missing a lot. My the time your turn comes around again, the rogue will be defeated and you can heal the wizard at a relaxed pace.
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 01:57 PM	Good spells In my view, the role of a good cleric is to anticipate what will happen, and prevent it. Waiting for someone to get hurt is a sign that your cleric is foolish, and that someone will probably get badly hurt this mod. The reason is that combat is quick. Healing someone to full in three rounds doesn't help if they die in two. I recommend the following preventative spells. 2nd- Resist Energy 3rd- Protection from Energy Invis Purge Insignia of Healing Magic Circle against Evil Dispel Magic (what doesn't this fix?) 4th- Death Ward (so much better than Restoration) Freedom of Movement 5th- True Seeing Stalwart Pact You should also have a scroll of all of the fix-it spells, like Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Resurgence, etc. Since you've got Maximize, also take some offensive spells that make use of it. Flame Strike, Searing Light, Blade Barrier, etc.
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 02:05 PM	Philosophy If you try to compete in the Who-can-do-the-most-damage game, you'll probably lose, as a cleric. Fighters are called fighters for a reason. If you try to set up conditions so that your team is always victorious, you can be a very effective cleric with the build that you have below. In a recent mod, my party (and my cleric) found ourselves on a boat trip. I anticipated danger, and took water walking. When we got attacked, I cast it on the two big fighters and myself. That's about the only useful thing I did the entire fight, I providing flanking twice and missed once. I count that as a great move on my part, and I didn't do any damage at all. Because the plate-mail wearing fighters were able to move out and engage, they made short work of the monsters. Since they couldn't be pulled underwater, the fighters had a big advantage. -So- much better than hit and run grapple tactics where people are dropped overboard to sink like stones.
copper_wyrmling 01-12-07, 02:40 PM	Philosophy If you try to compete in the Who-can-do-the-most-damage game, you'll probably lose, as a cleric. Fighters are called fighters for a reason. If you try to set up conditions so that your team is always victorious, you can be a very effective cleric with the build that you have below. In a recent mod, my party (and my cleric) found ourselves on a boat trip. I anticipated danger, and took water walking. When we got attacked, I cast it on the two big fighters and myself. That's about the only useful thing I did the entire fight, I providing flanking twice and missed once. I count that as a great move on my part, and I didn't do any damage at all. Because the plate-mail wearing fighters were able to move out and engage, they made short work of the monsters. Since they couldn't be pulled underwater, the fighters had a big advantage. -So- much better than hit and run grapple tactics where people are dropped overboard to sink like stones. As I understand it (I could be wrong) CrystalBlue's problem is that his party members are usually sufficiently competent that they can win fights easily without his help, so it feels like there's not much point in spending spell-slots on buffing them further, and then he feels like he doesn't have much to do in combat. It's not that he's finding the combats difficult, it's that he feels bored because he (supposedly) doesn't have anything to do that changes the face of the combat in the way that other PCs can. More broadly, the problem I have with your philosophy is that if the cleric is solely a troubleshooter, then when the combats are going well, there's nothing for him/her to do. That's fine if the cleric player is happy to sleep through the combats and wake up when something goes wrong or somebody needs healing, but some people really enjoy the combat part of the game. I know I found it frustrating in a few games around the same level CrystalBlue is now, when I took nothing but restorative/troubleshooting type spells and as a result never cast any spells except out-of-combat healing. That said, I mostly agree with your list of low-level spells. With pearls of power 1 and / or lesser rods of extend, shield of faith is also a fairly good buff (an extended shield of faith lasts about half an hour, which is often enough). Silence is excellent for shutting down spellcasters even at very high level (ready an action), and Healing Lorecall is nice if you have Heal ranks, now that it lasts 10 minutes / level. I don't normally take True Seeing and Stalwart Pact though - I don't like using fifth-level slots for spells with a nontrivial material component cost, although obviously I'm happy to cast Stalwart Pact on another PC if they want it and are willing to pay. CrystalBlue, if you want to play the damage game, you are using the Spell Compendium version of Bolt of Glory rather than the (relatively wimpy) Complete Divine version, right? You're in the Iuz metaregion, so you should get an undead or evil outsider in pretty much every encounter (well... okay, that doesn't seem to be as true in the Year 6's as it was in the earlier years), and 144 damage with no save and no energy resistance is pretty good. You can't play the melee damage game without power attack (and you'll never equal a fighter of your level even with power attack and buffs; divine power just brings you up to par BAB-wise and most fighters at your level have more than 20 Strength), but you've spent four feats on getting DMM (Maximize) to work properly, so use it :) If a maximized Bolt of Glory on an evil outsider or undead is wimpy compared to what your warmage friends are doing, then I'd quite like to see their build (so my ray-specialist sorcerer can plagiarise) ;)
Lupo 01-12-07, 03:01 PM	some how you are right, it is somehow to late to start crafting now, latest level is around 9. just buy a bag of PoP from the levels you have acces to, around 5 PoP 1st, 2 PoP 2nd and if can get 1 or 2 PoP 3rd. with the cartload of weapons you are not going to use regularly, just get leadership and get a suitable frontliner cohort . . . a non-frontliner optimized cleric - and your character isn't - has several options, one is, buff them up and keep them going. and if you can spare a spell action use one of your few offensives, preferably from a domain slot or cast a "dispell magic". ciao martin m.
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 03:39 PM	As I understand it (I could be wrong) CrystalBlue's problem is that his party members are usually sufficiently competent that they can win fights easily without his help, so it feels like there's not much point in spending spell-slots on buffing them further, and then he feels like he doesn't have much to do in combat. It's not that he's finding the combats difficult, it's that he feels bored because he (supposedly) doesn't have anything to do that changes the face of the combat in the way that other PCs can. Hmm, that makes sense. I don't have a lot of ideas there, other than play up? Play with other people? Find a judge who is better at tactics and strategy? I find this a bit surprising, actually. While our group does come across the easy mod from time to time, we also get it handed to us fairly often. Try looking for AJ Schmidt or John Twernbold as judges, I've felt that they were a) fair and b) challenging (in the best way).
Nutation 01-12-07, 05:04 PM	You can also contribute on the story side of things between combats. A diviner wizard has better tools, but you can cast Detect Thoughts, Divination, Zone of Truth, etc. Even a single Omen of Peril and a bag of PoPs can do a lot of good.
Japangirl 01-12-07, 05:13 PM	You could always take another Extra Turning for more Maximize fun! I'd suggest CWI though, TBH. Upgrade stat items, get expanded access to nifty items because you saw them before but couldn't afford them, and craft karma beads. I'd try not to lose the caster levels, and more Church Inquisitor (if you lose no caster levels) or more cleric is never bad. As for higher level spells, take hurting ones. Take Harm as well as Heal. Hit the undead bad guy with a Maximized Cure Critical and do truly evil (sacred?) amounts of damage. Maximized Flame Strikes are 72 points of damage, Reflex 22 for half in an area (assuming 22 Wis because of Amulet +4). Your melee stats are good enough to at least do some damage when you hit stuff with a weapon. No, you don't compare to the BDF power-attacking for full with a 2h weapon, but you still do good damage. 12th level clerics are awesome!
Lomiat 01-12-07, 05:41 PM	I agree with everyone else when they say that there's nothing wrong with your character. For a 12th level feat, I'd recommend (in order): Quicken Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Divine Spell Power (my guess is that this will soon be removed from the campaign), or Extend Spell (for buffs). I also agree with everyone who says your role as a cleric changes by APL 12. Several people have posted excellent examples of spell lists you could prepare, as well as their interpretations of "preventative healers." However, since you have a character designed to BOOM (or maximize that Heal), I'll offer an alternative interpretation: You take Quicken Spell at 12th, then in each first round of combat, you cast 1 spell to aid your party (quickened, of course) and 1 spell to go BOOM (that domain Bolt of Glory or Flamestrike). No, you don't do as much damage as a fighter--unless you face multiple foes whom you can target with an area-effect spell. Quicken a Bless, Silence, Sound Burst, etc. Whatever 1st or 2nd level spell you think might prove effective. Toss that out and then use something explosive. And if you don't keep up with the fighters, so be it. It's a team game, after all. My wizard has pretty much abandoned damage spells, not because I don't like casting them but because they're not terribly helpful. In a lot of adventures, he does very little because other party members leave him very little to do. Then, in a few adventures, monsters fall right into his spell selection, and he shines. It's going to be that way for any caster. The fighters just grind things, mod in and mod out. Spellcasters are hit or miss in their attempts to directly impede bad guys. Furthermore, cleric spells allow you to do a lot of things besides attack, heal, and buff. You could become more of a diviner, seeking advantageous hints from your deity, or use Chain of Eyes and summoned creatures to discover what's deeper in the dungeon. You could keep the party from getting surprised and, instead, allow your team to gain a surprise round. Or you could simply chill out for a couple levels, stay on "vacation," and become the party's treasurer, collecting loot from the DBBEG (dead big bad evil guys) while your fighters rock the next encounter. Take some ranks in Appraise...
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 09:49 AM	Well...funny you should mention AJ. Haha...he's the main reason my cleric feels useless. *sighs* He and his son's character are the reason why I just, frankly, won't play with them. His characters are in such a different league then mine. And I do think he's a great judge, I just know the way he thinks, runs, and plays. And I just can't play with him anymore. I feel like I'm worthless when I play at a table with him or his other gaming group friends. And I'm not saying anything bad. He's a great player. I just know that...really...I have no use at the table. And I just think he doesn't want me there anyways. Why should I be there? He'll have a great time cheesing the encounters with just him and everyone elses characters that...a normally made character like mine would just get in the way. If I were to buff the party, that'd be great. But it keeps happening that my party is full of people that already have all the buffs, or equivilant, that I do. Bards for Inspire Courage, bards and wizards for haste, wizards for Enlarge and Bull Strength. And by the time we're 12th level, Greater Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon are pointless. Most people, at that point, have the +4 weapons and +4 armor. Hell, they probobly have around +5 with +2 or +3 more enhancements on them. Buffing would be great...if cleric's were made for buffing. But the one's that they do get don't stack with other classes that out-buff a cleric every single time. This is why I think the only saving grace for a cleric is healing. In combat or out of combat. Healing ability damage, HP, or status effects. Whatever it is, a cleric is only really good at healing...unless you build them around a PrC that makes them better.
clannagh 01-16-07, 05:34 PM	This is why I think the only saving grace for a cleric is healing. In combat or out of combat. Healing ability damage, HP, or status effects. Whatever it is, a cleric is only really good at healing...unless you build them around a PrC that makes them better. Well you are a cleric .. turn and heal is what they do best. Though a dedicated buffing cleric often out buffs bards. Generally I havent come across too many parties that can power through an entire mod without needing at least some heavy healing at some point. But as pointed out in other threads the mods are not designed to almost kill a party of optimised power build characters designed to work as a team. With a group like that maybe a cleric actually is redundant. Perhaps reserve this character for convention play where clerics are always in high demand.
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 07:00 PM	Perhaps reserve this character for convention play where clerics are always in high demand. Maybe...I just really like this character and I wanted to get him into the high level campaign soon. I really, really want to stop being useless...but like I said, the only high level people around here have built themselves so they don't need healing. They can kill everything without taking damage themselves.
UMiskatonic 01-16-07, 09:05 PM	Regarding your past posts, I have an idea. If you ask your fellow players for an explanation of how they do -so- well, that should teach you a lot about the game. If they can't explain it, that should teach you a lot about them. I think your cleric is better than you think it is.