Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 03-28-08, 04:18 AM	Hey guys, Turns out the group I was going to play Greyhawk Ruins with desperately needs healing (more than a beguiler with Arcane Disciple can provide), so I'm in the market for building a dwarven cleric of Moradin. The idea is to make a cleric that's equally good at spellcasting, fighting and healing (although obviously not an uber-specialist in any field). Basically: as much healing, blasting and fighting as can be crammed into one (charismatic!) dwarven body. ;) A couple of firsts with this character: first Lawful Good, first female, first dwarf. ;) The build I had in mind is something like this: Female Dwarven Cleric Deity: Moradin Domains: Fire, War (Warhammer) Stats: Str: 14 Dex: 8 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 12 Armour and Weapons: Shield: Heavy Shield Armour: Heavy Plate Weapon: Warhammer Feats: 1st - Power Attack 3rd - Fiery Burst 6th - Craft Wonderous Item 9th - Augment Healing 12th - Improved Toughness Visual Inspiration: This was actually the image which inspired the character. ;) http://www.wocstudios.com/images/4e10.jpg The idea behind the Fiery Burst feat was that it gives her options, plus it's not that common to see clerics throwing around mini fireballs! ;) I mean, sure she can fight, but with her reduced movement speed I can imagine there'll be more than a few times when my turn will go, "I double move. Next!" Although the Fiery Burst only has a 30 foot range, that's a lot when your move speed is 20 feet... plus, it means I'm not burning all my healing magic on offensive spells! Bonus. Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
_metz_ 03-28-08, 07:30 AM	As someone with a cleric of Moradin (Who is taking credit for inspiring you even if he wasn't the reason!) I have a few pointers. Spellcasting fighting and healing are possible, in the sense that if you maintain good caster progression and take something like augment healing you will be fine. Fighting requires several things. Here is my build for a 'semi' optimal battle cleric (see MwaO for anti dwarf sentiments and copper for pro human sentiments, however I have found someone who wants a dwarf so dammit I've giving him the dwarf build :P) Ok, on to the build: 1. Don't try to turn via a high charisma score, you will be trying to do too many things. Its the items that really matter anyways. 2. Straight Cleric for the win. Stats: Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con:16 Int: 10 (keep concentration and spellcraft up!) Wis: 15 Cha: 6 Stat bumps: wisdom, str, str or straight wisdom. Feats: 1: Cleric 1(War, Strength): Augment Healing (this gives you good bang for your buck at low levels) 3: Cleric 3: Power Attack 6: Cleric 6: Craft Wondrous Item 9: Cleric 9: Quicken? 12: Cleric 12: Craft Magic Arms and Armour 15: Cleric 15: Improved Crit? maybe some other feat... I would suggest perusing the 'Divine FullBaB' (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=832454)list in The character compilation by Mummy, most of my comments on building battle clerics, particularly of the Dwarven bent are to be found there. The thread is quite good (hence its in the compilation) Just ignore me and Mummy argueing over elves versus dwarves (sees the PHB PSA... ELVES CAUSE CANCER!) Finally, if you REALLY want some charisma, make yourself a cloak of more charisma... You CAN get away with str 14 bu as someone with an almost 14th level battle cleric in my experience that extra +2 str would have been really useful, especially before divine power comes into play at 7th. Oh btw, Extended Magic vestment with a strand of prayer beads is your friend.
Timlagor 03-30-08, 01:11 PM	Divine Ward would be much better (also less surprising) than Fiery Burst. Augment Healing should definitely come as early as possible. No reason not to take it at first level: PA is handy but you won't really use it much until level 6+ anyway: the prime reason for taking it early is that you qualify then but tha also applies to AH.
Puggle Halfwine 03-30-08, 10:46 PM	Problem is, Tim, I've already got a full-support cleric with Divine Ward. Plus this build doesn't have the turn attempts for it- remember that it's one turn attempt PER SUBJECT, and then another one PER SPELL. My other cleric has 16 charisma and Extra Turning and I still often don't have enough. Plus locally I've seen a *lot* of good uses for Fiery Burst... one of our local players has a wizard with it. She uses it to great effect and I think I can too. Plus, well, it's something different to give a cleric. ;) It's a way for me to deal damage without having to burn through my spells, which in Ruins of Castle Greyhawk (and other endurance-focused adaptables), I can see as a big positive.
Maesto 04-01-08, 06:28 PM	At this stage of the campaign, I wouldn't be planning to get past about 12th level at the VERY most. I'll be very happy if my Greyhawk Ruins character actually makes it to 8th level, personally. I think you're trying to be too general. If you want to hit things, heal, and fight, you can optimise towards that. Given that you've got power attack on your feat list, I assume you actually want to hit things a few times over, not just in the direst of need. To that end, I'll suggest strength 16. It's amazing what the difference makes. I think the charisma is too high, really. I can understand you not wanting to make a cha 6 dwarf, but 12 is spending too much on a character who has almost no need for it. Yolande has done just fine with charisma 8 and turning. Charisma ten is enough. Unless you don't like skillful characters, I'll also suggest a higher intelligence. One skill point per level is tough, man. Wisdom? Well, depends what you want to do. You really don't need much wisdom if you want to hit things and have some casting on the side. And let's be honest - there isn't much blast on the cleric list. On the flip side, it will be powering your little firepuffs, so... I'd probably start with Wis 16, Strength 16, and bump strength twice as the levels go up, assuming you want to go hit things. As mentioned by others, augment healing >> power attack; you won't feel the need for power attack until about 6th level I don't think. Except in fairly strange circumstances, I'd expect you to want to be hitting things instead of fiery bursting them. Perhaps you want to cork rather than hit things, and focus on that firepuff? Just some random thoughts from an incoherent mind ;)
Puggle Halfwine 04-01-08, 08:05 PM	Given that you've got power attack on your feat list, I assume you actually want to hit things a few times over, not just in the direst of need. To that end, I'll suggest strength 16. It's amazing what the difference makes. I think the charisma is too high, really. I can understand you not wanting to make a cha 6 dwarf, but 12 is spending too much on a character who has almost no need for it. Yolande has done just fine with charisma 8 and turning. Charisma ten is enough. Unless you don't like skillful characters, I'll also suggest a higher intelligence. One skill point per level is tough, man. Wisdom? Well, depends what you want to do. You really don't need much wisdom if you want to hit things and have some casting on the side. And let's be honest - there isn't much blast on the cleric list. On the flip side, it will be powering your little firepuffs, so... I'd probably start with Wis 16, Strength 16, and bump strength twice as the levels go up, assuming you want to go hit things. As mentioned by others, augment healing >> power attack; you won't feel the need for power attack until about 6th level I don't think. Except in fairly strange circumstances, I'd expect you to want to be hitting things instead of fiery bursting them. Perhaps you want to cork rather than hit things, and focus on that firepuff? Just some random thoughts from an incoherent mind ;) Nah, you made a great case. Love it, sounds like a plan. Revised build is as follows: Female Dwarven Cleric Deity: Moradin Domains: Fire, War (Warhammer) Stats: Str: 16 Dex: 8 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 6 Armour and Weapons: Shield: Heavy Shield Armour: Heavy Plate Weapon: Warhammer Feats: 1st - Augment Healing 3rd - Fiery Burst 6th - Craft Wonderous Item 9th - Power Attack 12th - Improved Toughness
Timlagor 04-01-08, 08:33 PM	He made sense but you still have PA at 1st and AH at 9th? If you do nothing else at all you shoudl swap those two.
Puggle Halfwine 04-01-08, 10:28 PM	He made sense but you still have PA at 1st and AH at 9th? If you do nothing else at all you shoudl swap those two. Missed that. I'll swap them now.
_metz_ 04-02-08, 08:04 AM	Nah, you made a great case. Love it, sounds like a plan. Revised build is as follows: Hey, I siad that :P Silly Maesto taking my glory. Btw Belt of Battle is the Battle Cleric's friend. Increase your Dex to 10 ad drop wisdom to 15. Means with Mithral Heavy plate and +4 dex your Ac is optimised. Also you are better taking advantage of your three stat bumps, as a Greyhawk ruins character getting to 12th level is viable. Level 4 bump wis, rest wis or str, depending on how much casting you do. Really have to say that the reserve feat is a waste, you are taking up your domain each level to maintain it, especially at the all crucial level 4 (divine power) higher levels when the war domain and other domains give you decent spells. Those Firepuffs are overrated. They really are, they use up a high level slot in exhcange for wasting actions that could be spent on mid tier spells that are far more effective (recitation, insginia of healing, etc) Actions are the most important thing for the caster, if you want to blow stuff up all day, play a sorceror, doing it with a cleric is a waste of your versatility and differing strengths. Just some words from a high level LG cleric who almost never runs out of spells, and if he does, is winning. Usually doesn't waste an action to flame strike! let alone firepuff.
Maesto 04-02-08, 10:49 AM	Increase your Dex to 10 ad drop wisdom to 15. Means with Mithral Heavy plate and +4 dex your Ac is optimised. Also you are better taking advantage of your three stat bumps, as a Greyhawk ruins character getting to 12th level is viable. Level 4 bump wis, rest wis or str, depending on how much casting you do. I disagree. Sure, at 12th level you may be able to reap the benefits of starting with an odd stat. But you'll get _VERY_ little play at 12th level. I say it would be better to reap the benefits from levels 8-11, at this late stage.
_metz_ 04-02-08, 11:43 AM	I disagree. Sure, at 12th level you may be able to reap the benefits of starting with an odd stat. But you'll get _VERY_ little play at 12th level. I say it would be better to reap the benefits from levels 8-11, at this late stage. Won't the extra +1 AC, initiative, and reflex save for the first 8 levels be more important than +1 to hit and 1.5 to damage for levels 8 till 12? Seems bad even from the lower level play arguement. Especially when you consider this PC won't have power attack till level 9!!! Such a waste of build points on this clearly caster oriented cleric. But with the statement of intent with the firepuffs, coupled with the fire domain, and not even power attack till level 9, this PC is NOT a proper battle cleric and won't be one till APL 10ish in any case - look at the build. Normally I agree with you Jolyon, but not at this moment ;) NOt to mention the Expedition to the ruins of greyhawk is supposed to take you to level 13 or so now? that means the climactic finish will be around level 12 - so I think it will get its most important play then... less than 10 dex is always suboptimal in a cleric build, when attaining mithral heavy plate is so easy these days. Not to mention ideally you should boost wisdom over strength, the extra bonus level 4 spell alone is worth it. One more divine power a day is more useful than +2 str. That will also sit well with Puggle's intent for a caster cleric as well. With Enlarge and Divine power alone he will be at 24 str. that is reasonable, its no tweaked fighter, but it means once per day he can do it. Remember where this PC will be ending their career - in the greyhawk ruins. Level 12 will be important - this is not just another alt...
copperwyrmling 04-02-08, 02:37 PM	less than 10 dex is always suboptimal in a cleric build, when attaining mithral heavy plate is so easy these days. Off-topic, but... really? I think my five characters between them (who've reached levels 15, 15, 14, 9 and 5 respectively) have seen "generic mithral armor" favors exactly three times (twice on my L15 cleric, once on my L14 dervish, never with the other PCs). I wouldn't bet on this access.
MwaO 04-02-08, 06:45 PM	Belt of Battle is the Battle Cleric's friend. A Belt of Battle is everyone's friend.
Timlagor 04-02-08, 08:21 PM	everyone except Mr. Game Balance
_metz_ 04-02-08, 09:58 PM	Off-topic, but... really? I think my five characters between them (who've reached levels 15, 15, 14, 9 and 5 respectively) have seen "generic mithral armor" favors exactly three times (twice on my L15 cleric, once on my L14 dervish, never with the other PCs). I wouldn't bet on this access. I have seen it three times with my level 15 And I have seen it 4 times with my level 13 As you know Tracy, I play in the same area as Puggle also... And There is ususally at least one core game a year that gives generic mithral access, and Perrenland metaorgs used to: I can't remember if they still do... And as Heavy plate is open... In any case it means that you can live with heavy plate until you acquire such a favour. At least 10 dex is attainable to be maximised with the more commonly seen Mithral Full Plate access, 8 dex just isn't by any stretch of the imagination. And to Mummy: Agreed, a Belt of Battle is everyone's friend. Everyone except the fighter with a +6 belt of giants strength. Something a cleric does not need thanks to divine power... To Timlagor: Agreed. Thats why they were on the monsters I wrote at an interactive, under the instructions to use em only if the PCs had them...
magebeast 04-02-08, 10:28 PM	Agreed, a Belt of Battle is everyone's friend. Everyone except the fighter with a +6 belt of giants strength. Something a cleric does not need thanks to divine power... The belt of battle is still likely better for at least the one combat where you wear it, and then swap it out, once you have two or more attacks.
Maesto 04-03-08, 12:24 AM	Especially if you're going for heavy plate, 8 dex is fine. What's a glove slot for, anyway? Gloves of Dex +2 are dirt cheap.
copperwyrmling 04-03-08, 12:28 AM	The belt of battle is still likely better for at least the one combat where you wear it, and then swap it out, once you have two or more attacks. At my latest interactive table, all the casters had spare belts of battle. The meleers were wearing belts of giant strength. And then the warweaver said, "You know, I could put Bull's Strength in the quiescent weaving"... my dervish likes getting to full attack twice per round :cloud9: That said, I'm still not sure I'll get the belt of battle with that character, now I have access. He's already put a fair bit of money into the belt of giant strength and he needs the to-hit bonus (yes, I don't care if his to-hit bonus is +30 in an antimagic field, he still needs more plusses... ;) ) My cleric has her Con item in the belt slot, and she already has a bunch of half-price quicken rods, so I'm not sure she'll buy one either. For my sorc, on the other hand, it was an absolute no-brainer: she's buying several.
_metz_ 04-03-08, 06:24 AM	Especially if you're going for heavy plate, 8 dex is fine. What's a glove slot for, anyway? Gloves of Dex +2 are dirt cheap. Ah, but there is a big difference with optimising potential AC of Mithral Heavy Plate, with gloves +4 (worth the investment for a cleric) That's dex 14, and max dex of +2. ON a dwarf thats the same AC as Mithral Full plate, with the same mobility, but with less required Dexterity. There is a massive difference between being optimised for Masterwork versions of the armour, and the mithral version. With Magic Vestment (Floaty shield + armour), gloves of Dex +4, and the odd recitation/divine protection/sheild of faith/haste/Dusty Rose Ioun Stone You can get quite Good AC on a cleric. I just see it as a waste of build points. Even as an only lower level character, that +1 AC and Initiative will matter MOST at early levels, rahter than that +1 Str, especially when you consider that again, he doesn't become a combat character till level 9. Lets not forget, if he doesn't have power attack, then he shouldn't be wading into combat, divine power or NOT. If he does then he deserves the flak Battle clerics get. As a cleric more than 10 dex is not required, (12 aint bad if you can afford it, 14 is getting a bit luxurious) less than that is wandering into suboptimal land. I can see your arguement as having merit if the PC was intending to take power attack earlier, some better domains such as strength or destruction (even competition aint too shabby) and not waste time firepuffing, but this PC is clearly going to be a primarily caster cleric. NOT A strength based battle cleric A half assed battle cleric is the exact type of action waster that gets those of us who build serious battle clerics annoyed when we need to explain our existence at every second table. If you are taking the firepuff feat, I'd retrain it into power attack at level 9, and pick up something else. If you are still firepuffing at APL 10, something is up. I would also retrain the fire domain into strength, but that may ruin the character concept. Enlarge is very useful. Even if it is from a wand/scroll.
Puggle Halfwine 04-03-08, 07:14 AM	I like the idea of retraining Fiery Burst to Power Attack. Good deal! I'll probably retrain it at level 6, which with my other clerics is when I started to get enough spells to not care. Instead at 9th level I'll probably pick up... oh, I don't know. Um. Quicken Spell? Cheers, Dave,
magebeast 04-03-08, 10:44 AM	That said, I'm still not sure I'll get the belt of battle with that character, now I have access. He's already put a fair bit of money into the belt of giant strength and he needs the to-hit bonus (yes, I don't care if his to-hit bonus is +30 in an antimagic field, he still needs more plusses... ;) ) My cleric has her Con item in the belt slot, and she already has a bunch of half-price quicken rods, so I'm not sure she'll buy one either. For my sorc, on the other hand, it was an absolute no-brainer: she's buying several. On your dervish, I guess it's a question of in a, say, three round combat, which does more damage - four full attacks (including that you will hit a little less) or three full attacks with the +3/+3?
_metz_ 04-03-08, 10:57 AM	On your dervish, I guess it's a question of in a, say, three round combat, which does more damage - four full attacks (including that you will hit a little less) or three full attacks with the +3/+3? It does depend with some fighters. The biggest advantage is of course the old shocktrooper/combat brute trick combined with the belt of battle. Heedless Charge for a good hit Swift Action - Belt of Battle Full attack. Benign Transposition with another melee PC (Dwarven Defender works well here) Seen that done to good effect, works like a charm.. monsters don't last long. But the belt of battle is a silly item that should not have been allowed into LG. Such things happen, if the campaign wasn't to blow up I'd be one of the first to close the damn thing!
Maesto 04-03-08, 03:35 PM	On your dervish, I guess it's a question of in a, say, three round combat, which does more damage - four full attacks (including that you will hit a little less) or three full attacks with the +3/+3? Sorry for the threadjack, but if the warweaver is giving you bullstrength as a move action, you _can_ have your cake and eat it too ;)
Maesto 04-03-08, 03:38 PM	But the belt of battle is a silly item that should not have been allowed into LG. Such things happen, if the campaign wasn't to blow up I'd be one of the first to close the damn thing! Indeed. I thought it was bad enough that the high level core special "Into White Plume" gave access at some APL. But then, it was only for a select few PCs who played that game. Then I saw it in a core. Then a regional. Then another regional. Then a metaregional. Then an interactive. Man, it's just wrong! Stop handing out access to such a STUPID item, guys! I was on copper's table for the interactive. There were _six_ belts of battle available at the table. If only I could introduce a belt of battle into the real economy as opposed to just the action economy...
MwaO 04-03-08, 03:58 PM	Indeed. I thought it was bad enough that the high level core special "Into White Plume" gave access at some APL. But then, it was only for a select few PCs who played that game. Then I saw it in a core. Then a regional. Then another regional. Then a metaregional. Then an interactive. Man, it's just wrong! Stop handing out access to such a STUPID item, guys! I was on copper's table for the interactive. There were _six_ belts of battle available at the table. If only I could introduce a belt of battle into the real economy as opposed to just the action economy... Said the wizard responsible for I think 2 of them while at least two players at the table had no access to them... Remember folks, if given Belt of Battle access, just say no. Only you can prevent two full actions in a round. :P
Maesto 04-03-08, 04:09 PM	Ok, back on topic now... The biggest thing that I've seen in melee cleric builds is that if you really want to excel at the "melee cleric" part of things, you need to focus on that to the detriment of spellcasting. Metz, Puggle - think Ruth's favoured soul Boris. If you want to focus more on spellcasting, you can take a mediocre strength and divine power it up to be a half-decent melee character. Again, take Ruth's cleric Margaret as an example of this, or copper's cleric Yolande. If you want to focus completely on spellcasting, you can really dump strength a long way and take a maxed wisdom. Lomiat's character Aegon is an example of this.* To get the most out of fiery burst, you want the latter, because it's powered off wisdom for the DCs (in the case of a cleric). To be a truly effective melee, you want the former, which doesn't mesh quite so well with fiery burst (for obvious reasons). If you want the best of both worlds, something's gotta give. I was just suggesting dex. In the long run, you can't run with both of the roles at once, and I know that copperwyrmling finds it most effective (and probably fun) to do spellcasting instead of melee at the high levels, even though she's got a fair bit invested in melee abilities. You can be effective as a half-half character in the lower levels (especially since spellcasting at the lower levels is usually limited to healing), but unless you optimise a bit towards the melee side, you're really going to feel second rate compared to the fighters. *For those who don't know the characters... Boris is a human Favoured Soul (currently 9th level). He started with stats of 17, 12, 12, 8, 9, 14 (S/D/C/I/W/C), and has been bumping strength at 4 and 8. Feats are Power Attack, Cleave, CWI, Quicken Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Weapon Focus (longsword). Uses Merthuvial and mithril fullplate, divine power, and looks forward to quickened divine favour. Will take Melee Weapon Mastery at 12. Optimised for melee. Margaret is a human Cleric (currently 15th level). She started with stats of 14, 10, 14, 10, 15, 12, and bumped wisdom three times. Feats are Power Attack, Extra Turning, Disciple of the Sun, Quicken Spell, Chain Spell, CWI, and Augment Healing (not in that order). Uses adamantine fullplate, and found a belt of magnificence +2. She's alright in melee, but the starting strength of 14 hurts. At the high levels, she's better as a spellcaster than as a meleeist, even with quickened divine power. A similar build is Yolande (copperwyrmling's cleric, also currently 15th level. Hope you don't mind me posting this copper ;) ). She started with stats of 14, 16, 12, 10, 14, 8, bumped wisdom three times, and found a book. I think the feats are TWF, ITWF, IBuckler Defence, Augment Healing, Quicken Spell, Craft Rod, and Great Fervour She still has a nasty full attack sequence when buffed (divine power, quickened divine favour, quickened brambles), but it doesn't rival the fighters unless there's something wrong, and spellcasting is usually more effective. What both these clerics can do, however, is tank. Their walking ACs are about 35, and their buffed ACs can get up to the 50's. Aegon, Lomiat's human cleric, currently 8th, has starting stats of 8, 8, 8, 10, 18, 16. I do NOT recommend this configuration unless you are particularly good at keeping out of danger. No idea what the feats are, but hey - he's a good caster ;)
copperwyrmling 04-03-08, 04:48 PM	In the long run, you can't run with both of the roles at once, and I know that copperwyrmling finds it most effective (and probably fun) to do spellcasting instead of melee at the high levels, even though she's got a fair bit invested in melee abilities. Just a clarification here - what I find most fun at the high levels, when playing my cleric, is the ability to switch between roles based on what the party and encounter needs. I like experimenting with the full range of Yolande's abilities, now that they're so broad. In most encounters, and most parties, spellcasting is more efficient (and I'm fine with that - there are lots of fun high-level spells to play with), but there are exceptions. Length of combats matters. If the fight looks like it can be wrapped up in 1-2 rounds, I'll cast Power Words, Holy Word, Lion's Roar, Bolt of Glory, Fire Seeds (holly berry bombs), Heal (vs undead) and so on - my cleric, at least, does not have the item access or class abilities to full attack on round 1 when the bad guys don't start adjacent to the party, and making the full attack superior to spell-based offence requires a power-up round anyway. I think this is true for most battle clerics. (Sure, a belt of battle lets you move in and full attack if they're close enough and you want to full attack unbuffed AND give up your quickened spell... I'd rather just use the belt to launch two spells if I think the fight is going to be short.) On the other hand, in combats where you have to chew through 2000 HP of bad guys with excellent saves and your party doesn't have a LOT of melee damage output, you probably want to take the round to power up and get into melee, because it'll be a lot less expensive in spells over the course of the fight. You probably still won't be as good at damage output as a focused melee damage specialist (unless you're the one with Zealot Pact active), but you don't need to be better than your party members, you just need to provide a significant contribution to taking down the monsters. Boris is a human Favoured Soul (currently 9th level). He started with stats of 17, 12, 12, 8, 9, 14 (S/D/C/I/W/C), and has been bumping strength at 4 and 8. Feats are Power Attack, Cleave, CWI, Quicken Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Weapon Focus (longsword). Uses Merthuvial and mithril fullplate, divine power, and looks forward to quickened divine favour. Will take Melee Weapon Mastery at 12. Optimised for melee. Just a note... this PC is never going to be as strong in melee as an optimized melee specialist, unless I'm missing something. He'll be better than Yolande and Margaret in that regard, but he still won't equal people who actually have class abilities and more feats to help their melee damage output. In some fights at high level he will almost certainly find himself spellcasting, just because if he wades into melee and buffs up then the fight will be over before his second action. A similar build is Yolande (copperwyrmling's cleric, also currently 15th level. Hope you don't mind me posting this copper ;) ). She started with stats of 14, 16, 12, 10, 14, 8, bumped wisdom three times, and found a book. I think the feats are TWF, ITWF, IBuckler Defence, Augment Healing, Quicken Spell, Craft Rod, and Great Fervour She still has a nasty full attack sequence when buffed (divine power, quickened divine favour, quickened brambles), but it doesn't rival the fighters unless there's something wrong, and spellcasting is usually more effective. As I have said several times on this board, Yolande is waaaay unoptimized ;) (and it's not all my fault: the original stat array was handed to me at my first ever gamesday by some more experienced players - I don't think they expected the PC to be more than a one-shot character) The TWF with a staff is mostly for flavor - the nice thing about clerics is that she can still be very effective after having dumped several feats into it. (At least some people tend to see her as overpowered rather than the converse, in fact - at a recent convention I had another player ask me, "Is there anything your cleric ISN'T good at?", after watching Yolande stun an encounter with Lion's Roar, blow up a monster with holly berry bombs, heal the entire party 132 damage with one spell out of combat, and stand at the frontlines of the party soaking full attacks because she had the best AC...) She doesn't aim to "rival the fighters". In melee, she can be easily out-damaged by an optimized fighter of her level (unless she happens to be the one whose Zealot Pact triggers - then she usually does more damage): she can also easily out-damage a poorly built fighter of her level. She mostly only plays melee in combats that just require a lot of damage output, or on tables where NOBODY else can do damage and the party needs a tank.
TWG_Prometheus 04-03-08, 05:00 PM	Buckler instead of the Heavy Shield, Puggle. You won't have a feat for Somatic Weaponry, and +1 AC isn't worth having to track what's going on with your hands. I made a Dwarven Fire/War Cleric of Moradin for Greyhawk Ruins as well and so for it's going quite well. I chose a 14 Strength build, but I don't intend to be hitting things with my Warhammer all that frequently. So far, most of my spells have been going into healing, but I'm fine with that. I'm only level 3. I thought about taking Fiery Burst as well and I haven't written it off yet, but I'll have to re-evaluate whether it will feel necessary by the time I get to level 6. I'm really looking forward to casting Wall of Fire at 7th level. Produce Flame should prove useful as well. My level 3 feat is the venerable CWI, and I'm looking forward to my first batch of 5 PoPI at the next game I play. It should really free me up to cast non-healing spells like Bless more frequently. Kedron Blueshale, Historian Strength 14, Dexterity 12, Constitution 16, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 15, Charisma 6 Rebuke Fire success rate: 1 of 2 Turn Undead success rate: 2 of 2
Maesto 04-03-08, 08:59 PM	Just a note... this PC is never going to be as strong in melee as an optimized melee specialist, unless I'm missing something. He'll be better than Yolande and Margaret in that regard, but he still won't equal people who actually have class abilities and more feats to help their melee damage output. In some fights at high level he will almost certainly find himself spellcasting, just because if he wades into melee and buffs up then the fight will be over before his second action. I agree. In combats that are going to run close to one round (possibly two), this PC won't be able to nearly match a fighter who goes at it from round one. If there is buff time however, or the combat lasts 5+ rounds, they'll probably be on close to par, round by round (but they still won't make up for the first round). The build trades some combat prowess for being able to entirely self-buff (MV, GMW, Heroes Feast) and put themselves back together. I like self-sufficient PCs ;-) (Of course, buffing the fighter is probably more effective, but as it's a favoured soul, heh, there's spellslots to burn!) Cheers, Jolyon
_metz_ 04-03-08, 10:26 PM	Ok, back on topic now... Metz, Puggle - think Ruth's favoured soul Boris. If you want to focus more on spellcasting, you can take a mediocre strength and divine power it up to be a half-decent melee character. Again, take Ruth's cleric Margaret as an example of this, or copper's cleric Yolande. If you want to focus completely on spellcasting, you can really dump strength a long way and take a maxed wisdom. Lomiat's character Aegon is an example of this.* Ah yes Maesto, I have played with btoh PCs, and appreciate that they aren't bad. However I play with Auchdritte Damun Van Stratton Khund, who was my first LG character and was very badly built, but has turned into an effective melee character. The stats (after stat boosting items) are: Str: 14 Dex: 14 (with +4 gloves and mithral heavy plate) Con: 18 (yay Belt of Endurance, soon to be replaced with Ioun stone for belt of battle cheese) Int: 14 (Yeah this was suboptimal, but has allowed him to become an earth dreamer so not all bad) Wis: 24 Cha: 6 This PC is one xp off level 13, but plays mainly APL 14 and crafts heaps. (This guy has a silly amount of items). Maesto, look at the 'divine full BaB' list from Mommy was an Orc for my views on optimal battle clerics, I posted a fair chunk in that. As I said, 15 wisdom is good for a starting cleric. IDefeintely agree with MAesto that you usually won't be entering combat. Thats why I advocate the full caster stat, because when there is a fighter that does it better, if you have full caster progression and a strong wisdom, then you have options to produce a more effective party. I hardly ever get to go hammer time, the only time I did it when we *weren't* winning was in the demonweb pits when we triggered the whole *spoiler* at once essentially.
copperwyrmling 04-05-08, 03:40 PM	Ah yes Maesto, I have played with btoh PCs, and appreciate that they aren't bad. Have you played with Yolande? I don't remember playing with any of your high-level characters, and Yol has been L15 for a while now (eighteen months or so). Just curious ;)
_metz_ 04-06-08, 08:47 AM	Have you played with Yolande? I don't remember playing with any of your high-level characters, and Yol has been L15 for a while now (eighteen months or so). Just curious ;) lol, I as referring to Ruth's two PCs; Boris and The Iron Lady Margeret, NOT Yolande :) Both of Which Maesto built, and was using to explain his views... (So I have seen them in action) SOmetimes its not always about you copper... :P
copperwyrmling 04-06-08, 03:23 PM	lol, I as referring to Ruth's two PCs; Boris and The Iron Lady Margeret, NOT Yolande :) Both of Which Maesto built, and was using to explain his views... (So I have seen them in action) He was also using Yolande as an example and she was mentioned in the paragraph you quoted - I was just wondering ;)