Cleric Retrain out of DMM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Retrain out of DMM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golorious
02-13-07, 02:59 PM Okay so it is time to figure out what to do with my cleric who has DMM Chain.

I was using chain with things like Dispel magic, Close wounds, Shatter (which I called chain detect magic weapon/armor) and going for chain GWM and chain GDM. I prepare mostly domination spells in my domain slots.

I'm a 6th level cleric of St Cuthbert 1 AR from 7th level. I am currently playing in the red Hand of doom series. Technically 3 cleric 3 church inquisitor (meta-org access). (Max spot and sense motive) Domains Domination, Destruction and Inquisition.

Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 17 (19 with +2 amulet) Cha 14
-Yes I'm fully encumbered and have a movement of 20 and horrible encumbrance penalties... :)

Current feats are Extend Spell, Extra Turning, chain spell and DMM Chain (Bonus spell focus enchantment from domination).

There are a ton of options out there and I'm looking for suggestions or stuff I have not thought of. The only feat I'm sure I don't want to train out of is extend spell. I also want craft wondrous at 9th level (because I wont get to use it at all before then due to Red hand of doom TU's and retraining)

Option one -- Enchanter
Immediate retrain DMM with Domain Spont Domination. 7th level retrain chain or extra turning to Greater spell focus.

Option two -- Enchanter Heightened
Immediate retrain DMM with Meta-magic School focus Enchantment, 7th level retrain Chain to Heighten, 8th level retrain extra turning to Greater spell focus Enchantment or Domain spont Domination.

Option three -- Buffer
Immediate retrain DMM to Spell focus Transmutation, 7th level retrain chain to metamagic school focus (transmutation) this would allow 3 free extend spells a day. Handy for Greater magic weapon, Water Breathing, air walk, bears endurance etc... Being only 3 times per day is limiting.

Option four -- Crafter
Immediate retrain DMM to Craft Wondrous and 9th level take craft Rod hoping I see access to Meta-magic rods of chain and extend. With rods it will be like I still had DMM. 7th level retrain extra turning to something else.

Option five -- Healer
Immediate retrain DMM to Sacred Healing (cd or PHB2) and 7th level retrain chain to Augmented Healing.

Option six -- Warder
Immediate Retrain of DMM to Divine Ward... 7th retrain Chain to steady spell casting or the reserve feats unsettling enchantment or touch of Distraction.

Unfortunately I'm not finding anything I liked as much as DMM Chain.
zoinks69
02-14-07, 02:24 AM I have a level 14 Cleric of St. Cuthbert (12/2 Contemplative), so I feel compelled to respond.

Chain is powerful, though I'm sure it's disappointing to have your toys taken away before you could do some of the really cool stuff.

I'd put chain on the shelf until 12. In the meantime, I'd take advantage of your strengths -- for instance at 7 you can start laying down the awesome Dispel Magics (+4 unnamed bonus from Inquisition domain that "breaks" the limitation of the spell when you get above level 10). No more DSP, so is there some other way to boost your Dispel check?

From what you listed:
"Option one -- Enchanter
Immediate retrain DMM with Domain Spont Domination. 7th level retrain chain or extra turning to Greater spell focus.

Option two -- Enchanter Heightened
Immediate retrain DMM with Meta-magic School focus Enchantment, 7th level retrain Chain to Heighten, 8th level retrain extra turning to Greater spell focus Enchantment or Domain spont Domination."

If you find your Domination spells work alot of the time, then these options seem OK.

"Option three -- Buffer
Immediate retrain DMM to Spell focus Transmutation, 7th level retrain chain to metamagic school focus (transmutation) this would allow 3 free extend spells a day. Handy for Greater magic weapon, Water Breathing, air walk, bears endurance etc... Being only 3 times per day is limiting."

Extend Spell starts to lose effectiveness around level, say, 10ish -- the hours buffs pretty much last "all day" so you end up not needing to Extend them (not to mention the rounds buffs last way longer than the combats). Getting 3 for "free" is neat though.

"Option four -- Crafter
Immediate retrain DMM to Craft Wondrous and 9th level take craft Rod hoping I see access to Meta-magic rods of chain and extend. With rods it will be like I still had DMM. 7th level retrain extra turning to something else."

Craft Wondrous is a solid option (my opinion) unless you've found yourself burning all your TUs and missing play opportunities (Crafting only makes that situation worse).

"Option five -- Healer
Immediate retrain DMM to Sacred Healing (cd or PHB2) and 7th level retrain chain to Augmented Healing."

If you go this route, retrain to Augment Healing. PHB2 Sacred Healing isn't available (yet). CD Sacred Healing isn't worth it in my opinion. At low level it's nifty, but not much more than a cash saver the higher you go (you spend less on consumables to heal after fights and your Cha bonus can't keep up to get the same effect).

"Option six -- Warder
Immediate Retrain of DMM to Divine Ward... 7th retrain Chain to steady spell casting or the reserve feats unsettling enchantment or touch of Distraction."

Probably my favorite option of the ones you listed. I've yet to see it used, but I think there will be lots of Divine Warding going on once the new LGCS is live. The cost is relatively low (especially for the clerics that were heavily invested in DMM and DSP) and the benefit is pretty nice, more or less mimicing the Hierophant Divine Reach and/or Metamagic Reach with as good or greater range but limited to heals. Consider combining it with Augment Healing.

I assume by steady spell casting you mean Steady Concentration? I like the feat -- it's a great replacement for Combat Casting/Skill Focus (Concentration). There's nothing worse than missing a critical Concentration check. I'm not sure how necessary it is with Divine Ward as the major benefit of the feat is eliminating the need to get in melee range and make the rolls.
Golorious
02-14-07, 12:11 PM Yes I meant to put Steady Concentration. Not steady spell casting.

I agree that Divine Ward does limit the need of Steady spell casting.

I do like Divine Ward and since my movement is a brisk pace of 20ft it would help a lot. Also with 9 Turning attempts it will come in handy to have a use for them.

Should I then replace Chain at 7th level with something else?
Augmented Healing?
Unsettling Enchantment?
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment?
Steady Concentration?
Something Else I haven't thought of?

I do like the idea of picking up chain again at 12th level when I'll actually have the spell slots to be able to use it well. I will be taking Craft Wondrous for sure at 9th level because then I will be just finishing or finished with red hand of doom and will have plenty of TU's (well next year I will).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golorious 02-13-07, 02:59 PM	Okay so it is time to figure out what to do with my cleric who has DMM Chain. I was using chain with things like Dispel magic, Close wounds, Shatter (which I called chain detect magic weapon/armor) and going for chain GWM and chain GDM. I prepare mostly domination spells in my domain slots. I'm a 6th level cleric of St Cuthbert 1 AR from 7th level. I am currently playing in the red Hand of doom series. Technically 3 cleric 3 church inquisitor (meta-org access). (Max spot and sense motive) Domains Domination, Destruction and Inquisition. Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 17 (19 with +2 amulet) Cha 14 -Yes I'm fully encumbered and have a movement of 20 and horrible encumbrance penalties... :) Current feats are Extend Spell, Extra Turning, chain spell and DMM Chain (Bonus spell focus enchantment from domination). There are a ton of options out there and I'm looking for suggestions or stuff I have not thought of. The only feat I'm sure I don't want to train out of is extend spell. I also want craft wondrous at 9th level (because I wont get to use it at all before then due to Red hand of doom TU's and retraining) Option one -- Enchanter Immediate retrain DMM with Domain Spont Domination. 7th level retrain chain or extra turning to Greater spell focus. Option two -- Enchanter Heightened Immediate retrain DMM with Meta-magic School focus Enchantment, 7th level retrain Chain to Heighten, 8th level retrain extra turning to Greater spell focus Enchantment or Domain spont Domination. Option three -- Buffer Immediate retrain DMM to Spell focus Transmutation, 7th level retrain chain to metamagic school focus (transmutation) this would allow 3 free extend spells a day. Handy for Greater magic weapon, Water Breathing, air walk, bears endurance etc... Being only 3 times per day is limiting. Option four -- Crafter Immediate retrain DMM to Craft Wondrous and 9th level take craft Rod hoping I see access to Meta-magic rods of chain and extend. With rods it will be like I still had DMM. 7th level retrain extra turning to something else. Option five -- Healer Immediate retrain DMM to Sacred Healing (cd or PHB2) and 7th level retrain chain to Augmented Healing. Option six -- Warder Immediate Retrain of DMM to Divine Ward... 7th retrain Chain to steady spell casting or the reserve feats unsettling enchantment or touch of Distraction. Unfortunately I'm not finding anything I liked as much as DMM Chain.
zoinks69 02-14-07, 02:24 AM	I have a level 14 Cleric of St. Cuthbert (12/2 Contemplative), so I feel compelled to respond. Chain is powerful, though I'm sure it's disappointing to have your toys taken away before you could do some of the really cool stuff. I'd put chain on the shelf until 12. In the meantime, I'd take advantage of your strengths -- for instance at 7 you can start laying down the awesome Dispel Magics (+4 unnamed bonus from Inquisition domain that "breaks" the limitation of the spell when you get above level 10). No more DSP, so is there some other way to boost your Dispel check? From what you listed: "Option one -- Enchanter Immediate retrain DMM with Domain Spont Domination. 7th level retrain chain or extra turning to Greater spell focus. Option two -- Enchanter Heightened Immediate retrain DMM with Meta-magic School focus Enchantment, 7th level retrain Chain to Heighten, 8th level retrain extra turning to Greater spell focus Enchantment or Domain spont Domination." If you find your Domination spells work alot of the time, then these options seem OK. "Option three -- Buffer Immediate retrain DMM to Spell focus Transmutation, 7th level retrain chain to metamagic school focus (transmutation) this would allow 3 free extend spells a day. Handy for Greater magic weapon, Water Breathing, air walk, bears endurance etc... Being only 3 times per day is limiting." Extend Spell starts to lose effectiveness around level, say, 10ish -- the hours buffs pretty much last "all day" so you end up not needing to Extend them (not to mention the rounds buffs last way longer than the combats). Getting 3 for "free" is neat though. "Option four -- Crafter Immediate retrain DMM to Craft Wondrous and 9th level take craft Rod hoping I see access to Meta-magic rods of chain and extend. With rods it will be like I still had DMM. 7th level retrain extra turning to something else." Craft Wondrous is a solid option (my opinion) unless you've found yourself burning all your TUs and missing play opportunities (Crafting only makes that situation worse). "Option five -- Healer Immediate retrain DMM to Sacred Healing (cd or PHB2) and 7th level retrain chain to Augmented Healing." If you go this route, retrain to Augment Healing. PHB2 Sacred Healing isn't available (yet). CD Sacred Healing isn't worth it in my opinion. At low level it's nifty, but not much more than a cash saver the higher you go (you spend less on consumables to heal after fights and your Cha bonus can't keep up to get the same effect). "Option six -- Warder Immediate Retrain of DMM to Divine Ward... 7th retrain Chain to steady spell casting or the reserve feats unsettling enchantment or touch of Distraction." Probably my favorite option of the ones you listed. I've yet to see it used, but I think there will be lots of Divine Warding going on once the new LGCS is live. The cost is relatively low (especially for the clerics that were heavily invested in DMM and DSP) and the benefit is pretty nice, more or less mimicing the Hierophant Divine Reach and/or Metamagic Reach with as good or greater range but limited to heals. Consider combining it with Augment Healing. I assume by steady spell casting you mean Steady Concentration? I like the feat -- it's a great replacement for Combat Casting/Skill Focus (Concentration). There's nothing worse than missing a critical Concentration check. I'm not sure how necessary it is with Divine Ward as the major benefit of the feat is eliminating the need to get in melee range and make the rolls.
Golorious 02-14-07, 12:11 PM	Yes I meant to put Steady Concentration. Not steady spell casting. I agree that Divine Ward does limit the need of Steady spell casting. I do like Divine Ward and since my movement is a brisk pace of 20ft it would help a lot. Also with 9 Turning attempts it will come in handy to have a use for them. Should I then replace Chain at 7th level with something else? Augmented Healing? Unsettling Enchantment? Greater Spell Focus Enchantment? Steady Concentration? Something Else I haven't thought of? I do like the idea of picking up chain again at 12th level when I'll actually have the spell slots to be able to use it well. I will be taking Craft Wondrous for sure at 9th level because then I will be just finishing or finished with red hand of doom and will have plenty of TU's (well next year I will).