Post/Author/DateTime	Post
frupton 07-05-07, 02:08 AM	Starting a tangent discussion from the "hardest to find at high APLs" thread. There are some good points here, but the role you need the most at high APL must to some extent come down to what strategy you tend to persue at high level. My preferred approach revolves around slowing the enemy down, so some form of cork is invaluable, but ability to do large amounts of damage is more of a nice-to-have. I take it as a rule of thumb that if the monsters are in melee contact with anyone who is not a cork by round 2, then we're probably doing something wrong. I'm part of a party of 6 that is trying to plan our future. Currently at APL 6. So far we've generally done well by sticking our AC 26 dwarven cork in the nearest bottleneck and blasting away from behind him. We're debating as we move up to higher APLs whether our fighter should aim to remain a "pure cork", or whether he should sacrifice some AC (including perhaps his tower shield) in favor of attacking 2H and picking up some damage-boosting feats. Frankly, we're the blind leading the blind. None of us have played at high APL yet. My sense is that a cork is likely to be less useful as higher level foes increasingly will have a way around corks (incorporeal, ethereal, flying, etc.) But perhaps corks are still useful in a majority of situations? In case it matters, the party composition is: Dwarven Fighter (cork) Elvish Ranger (archer) Human Sorceror (headed to Elemental Savant) Human Cleric (Not a Radiant Mozzarella. Domains = Good, War.) Human Bard (headed to Sub Chord) Human Rog/Wiz (headed to Arcane Trickster) I'd be interested to hear comment from those with more high-level experience as to whether the "cork strategy" remains a viable strategy at APL 10 to 14-ish, or whether we should be rethinking our fighter's role.
zoinks69 07-05-07, 02:44 AM	I've played a fair share of higher APL (and run a few as well). My general sense is that AC gets very difficult to maintain at mid to high levels -- the monsters to-hit scales up but your AC might not. The few true 'corks' I've seen (touch AC in the 50s at apl teens) end up not being a threat to the monsters and end up being ignored (he was a devoted defender, so he actually WAS a threat, in a sense). I'm not sure if your dwarf has invested any feats into ac (expertise, dodge, etc), but I'd be of the opinion that you should leave the job of AC to your party members (cleric in particular). With the bard's help, the cleric can be casting Magic Vestments and Shield of Faiths at a higher and generally more advantageous caster level for a nice AC boost. Get the arcane to throw you a buff -- Displacement (even Minor). So you end up with "respectable" AC and still dish damage instead of "awesome" AC and no damage. I think you're correct in assuming that the battlefield is usually 3D at higher levels. You should assume that the monsters will be actively trying to get at the squishie party members via teleports/d.door/fly/earthglide, etc. If you're an AC guy, sure you'll weather the storm (but the party may not). If you're a big damage dealer, you'll get their attention not to mention be wiping one or more of them off the mat every round (usually). If you want any specifics, post your build and I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions :)
Cardinal Teplin 07-05-07, 11:11 AM	As you get to the higher APLs, two things start to occur. The first is that range of enemy ability increases. Some creatures will be very poor at hitting (but have other abilities or are very tough). Some will have special abiltiies leading to some non-standard combats. And some will just be really really good at hitting. At you get to higher levels, this increased range means that some enemies will hit you, no matter how high your AC. My cork had an AC of more than 40, which made him practically unhittable by some enemies, but in other fights he went down in the first round. At low APL a high AC means you can't get hit (much). At high APLs, it increases the number of encounters where you can't get hit(much). The second is that you end up facing some very manoevrable creatures. Unless your cork does a useful amount of damage, they may well just go around you. There are ways to prevent that sort of thing, but in general, the cork needs to be some sort of threat. Given the choice, I would have resdesigned my cork with less AC and more damage. However, you have a party that definitely benefits from having a cork, so you can't discard the role entirely. I'd suggest sacrifce some AC to do damage, and maybe make up the rest with some buff spells. The party need a cork, they need to help it happen, and at higher levels the low-level buffs are comparatively easy to come by.
Drezden 07-05-07, 12:53 PM	I really think damage (and offense) is King at high APLs. Even if you have high AC, some things will still hit you and you might not have the best defenses for the spells and supernatural abilities of various monsters. Even if you do, your party won't. The best way to eliminate these threats is to kill them - and do it fast. I wouldn't give up on AC - but you need to make yourself a credible offensive threat. Daren
JamesMaissen 07-05-07, 02:15 PM	I really think damage (and offense) is King at high APLs. I wouldn't give up on AC - but you need to make yourself a credible offensive threat. Daren Knowledge is king at high APLs. Monsters won't know that you have AC 10 or AC 50.. if combats go fast, they may never know who can do what. If you have a weakness.. hide it. Likewise if you are focused on one strength, don't let them know it until they feel it. This is why I agree that high damage groups work well at high APLs, because it doesn't give the enemy time to learn and adjust to what they should be doing against the particular group in question. Try to be percieved differently than what you are in reality. I've had a PC wearing full plate just so that monsters might think that he was harder to hit.. trusting my fellows to get rid of it before it realizes that there was nothing more to his AC than what you saw. Sometimes the monster would attack the 'easier' target that had a much higher AC as a result. For a cork I would suggest a wounding weapon. It feels nastier than it really is, the effective damage that it does would not feel as strong if it were just normal damage. Also I would suggest that you not 'cork' mindlessly, but rather use it as a tool in your arsenal. -James
Some_call_me_Tim 07-05-07, 02:59 PM	I'll chime in here as I have a 14th level dwarven defender that could be described as a 'cork' (although I prefer 'tank' despite its increased used to mean "my warrior build"--tanks and tough and have ARMOR and armament folks, but I digress). I see several comments about attack bonuses outstripping armor bonuses. There is some truth to that. However, armor doesn't just have to stop every attack to be effective. If the opponent has a +15 BAB and you only stop the second and third attacks from hitting you still have reduced the amount of damage you take by 2/3. It also prevents the opponent from using power attack effectively. And yes there is such a thing as too much AC. If the monster ever figure out they need natural 20's to hit they will switch to full power attack as well. As Drezden pointed out, even your AC won't protect you at the magical/supernatural/extraordinary attacks that aren't affected by armor. This is where your hit points are your friends. A good 'cork' will have plenty of those as well. At the games I've played/judged the fighter tends to be supportive in combat rather than dominant as at lower levels. I envision my roll in party is primarily to keep the Big Bad Doodz[tm] off the squishy guys. While the enemy tends to be more mobile at higher APLs there are still a lot of BDF-types that your mage will be glad the dwarf blocks. Secondly, I am there as a attack and damage sponge. It will generally take at least a few attacks before even the smartest BDFs realize you're a lot tougher to hit than they thought. (I also find quite a few DMs go after you because they know you can take it.) As long as you are a credible threat they probably won't ignore you either. If they do ignore you, go after their spell casters. I won't say I'm a massive damage dealer (typical is 20-ish points per hit without power attack), it is usually more than a little annoyance. If I was to rebuild him from scratch I probably would put a little more effort into dealing damage over AC. However, I would never sacrifice armor to the extent of raging barbarian in a +1 loincloth. Taking either to an extreme is an exercise in diminishing returns. Sure high AC is good but once you boost it to the point the enemy needs natural 20's higher doesn't really help. A barbarian who can do 150 points of damage in a round is nice but if you then need the resources to heal the 150 points of damage he took you aren't getting as big a benefit as you think. I do have to admit it is sometimes fun to have one aspect of a character insanely maximized. Like when my dwarf was in defensive stance against Storm Giants and the DM said, "that hits AC 43 for 38 points damage," and you say "Sorry, missed." :evillaugh
solbergb 07-05-07, 03:04 PM	You will want the cork to have a "damage mode" and a "cork mode". If he can animate that shield, the tradeoff is easier, you can switch modes with less cost in actions. Even with the shield shouldered though, have it up for surprise round, then shift it off during the "monster close" phase if the terrain or monster type makes corking not very useful (he hits you too easily, or you don't need the shield to cork. Enlarge person can help with both things - while it lowers your armor class it greatly impacts the area you can "cork" with and also you look more dangerous so more things attack you. In addition it gives a significant damage boost even onehanded.....1d8+5 becomes 2d6+6, 1d10+4 becomes 2d8+5. My own "cork" who looks like a fighter but is actually a warchanter will sometimes fire up weapon capsule retainers and enlarge to scare people even though his sister the barbarian is always more dangerous. I've seen a few pure corks at high APL's and they were usually not very useful unless the terrain was very constricted. There was one mod with a lot of teleporting monsters and a party with anticipate teleport though, that left the cork in front of the dangerous monster every time, but that is kind of a special case. Also remember that a good portion of the offense in high APL's doesn't use the AC mechanic. In fights like that, you need to switch to "offensive mode" and stick to it. If you don't have an "offensive mode" then you'll be useless in more fights than a sneak-only rogue in a "wizard tower" adventure (where most enemies are constructs, undead or elementals)
dragon2007 07-05-07, 03:07 PM	Does your dwarf PC have Combat Experitse and Improved Combat Expertise? If not, are you an 'Arcane Fighter'? If you answer 'no' to all of those questions, then you should start focusing on increasing your character's offensive capabilities. For the true AC builds (I don't have one yet), you need to be at have an AC of 30+APL to be considered a 'cork'. If you can't reach that, your best bet is to mix in some offense, otherwise known as the dreaded 'race to zero' fighter.
rutrow424 07-05-07, 03:19 PM	I'll concur that a pure cork build does lose effectiveness at higher levels, but it is very possible to build a cork that is a credible threat to force most foes to focus on him. With a dwarf, a straight fighter-type build can take WF, WS, GWF, GWS, MWM, Imp Crit, and Slashing Flurrly w/ a waraxe to do respectable damage with a sword & board style, while maintaining an AC in the 40s. Even moreso with an animated shield and a dip into EWM w/ power attack. You may sacrifice a defensive feat or 2, but still have room for Dwarf Armor Prof, Dodge, CE, etc. If you combine that with magic/items to improve mobility, you can do just fine in most circumstances. Your party may need a 2nd member (ie the war cleric) to step up and support you in your efforts; IME having at least 2 front-line types is optimal to limit the possibility of avoiding/by-passing the "hard" target.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 05:44 PM	For the true AC builds (I don't have one yet), you need to be at have an AC of 30+APL to be considered a 'cork'. I'm currently kicking around teching out my spellcaster to have a super-AC, so I'm wondering... Just what are the AC thresholds for each APL? Answers I've heard so far seem to bounce all over the map. -Matt
DonShard 07-05-07, 05:53 PM	I've gathered that a front-liner should expect 20+APL to be effective. 30+APL seems extreme to me, and probably comes at the detriment of other options. (Is there any way to realistically achieve AC 34 at 4th level?)
solbergb 07-05-07, 06:00 PM	20+APL works until about level 10, although some draw the line as low as level 8. Transitioning to 30+APL is something that you do between levels 8-12. To do so takes a significant percentage of your total wealth by level and generally a feat or two, so it will have an impact on what else you can do. Some people "freeze" their AC about level 8 to avoid paying those costs, which means it still works on the weaklings but you are increasingly hittable by the strong stuff. The reason is that the APL scaling catches up to you. Big melee monsters get a +3 to hit for +1 CR (that's what they get for size boosts, that is what they get for 4 hd per 1 CR advancement - most scary melee monsters get one or the other for each CR bump and it gets even a touch worse if their level bumps get added to strength) The 30+APL is a correction to account for that which works until about level 15. While some monsters may still be built to hit you anyway at APL14, they tend to rely on power attacking for a fair amount to do meaningful damage, and if they do they miss (so they hit, but they don't do much). If you think about it, even a vanilla warrior is going to overcome the +1 AC per level idea, as he gets bumps to strength, feats that improve attack mods and equipment/buffs that both boost attack mods directly or increase strength. You need to adjust for that at some point. Now...having the kind of AC that means the melee monsters might miss generally means that anything less than a real melee monster won't have a chance of hitting you at all, even flatfooted. That can be useful - the shock-trooper types have to fear a lot of stuff from weak enemies that the AC tanks just ignore. This is why you can achieve 30+APL with stuff like fight defensive, combat expertise, improved combat expertise, minute-buffs cast before kicking down door on the critters that you really fear, but vs everything else your base AC of 20+APL is plenty good on....so you need a way to translate NOT needing to fight defensive/expertise into offense.
solbergb 07-05-07, 06:15 PM	(Is there any way to realistically achieve AC 34 at 4th level?) You can get pretty close. Assume a full BAB character with combat expertise, full plate+12 dex or heavy plate+1, tower shield+1, ring protection+1 and 5 ranks in tumble That's 10+(8+1+1)+(4+1)+1+4+3 = 33 AC when fighting defensively with full combat expertise. Give him the dodge feat or size small and you're all the way there. of course his attack rolls are -2 for tower shield, -4 for fighting defensively and -4 for combat expertise = -10...so this isn't a trick you do to go for damage. Enhancement bonuses to your armor/shield, your deflection bonus and your "fight with expertise" bonuses scale somewhat with level Most "real corks" get improved combat expertise because other ways of corking up get too pricey. You can't really afford do all of the following by level 15 with the cash you'll earn buying market rate +5 mithril fullplate +5 tower shield +4 gloves of dex (to max out mithril fullplate) +5 ring of deflection +5 amulet of natural armor (even aside wanting amulet of health there) +5 cloak or vest of resistance Those add up to ~180kgp and I think the wealth/levle is only about 260k at retirement, of which 110k is earned in levels 14-15. Improved combat expertise on a full BAB character translates to a +10 dodge bonus by level 15 for "free". (where "free" means I don't do any damage) One reason clerics can often tank pretty well at higher levels is they get much of the enhancement bonus to armor/shield and deflection bonus via spells, getting similar results with lower investment. But even then, they can usually only get to 20+APL most of the time without also spending on intelligence+combat expertise tree
solbergb 07-05-07, 06:17 PM	I'm currently kicking around teching out my spellcaster to have a super-AC, so I'm wondering... -Matt Thresholds for spellcasters can be higher or lower depending on their magic. healer types can replace combat expertise with self-healing every round and get away with less. "miss chance" (displacement, invis, mirror image) guys can get away with less if their hitpoint reserve is sufficient to withstand a run of bad luck or an enemy that can see through it. Anybody who can give up and escape without taking an AOO can get away with a bit less (ie, you can dim door, or go invisible, or tumble, or something) If a spellcaster is going to be actively tanking though (ie, using std actions to raise AC), you're usually better off with battlefield control. High AC on a spellcaster is usually a strategy taken only by those who wish their PASSIVE armor class to be sufficient to let them cast while threatened by real melee monsters. Clerics can usually pull this off for a bit with a normal investment in heavy armor, shield and AC-spells, as they're pretty durable hitpointwise. All the arcanists I've seen who attempt it after about level 4 rely heavily on miss chance spells, especially now as polymorph/alter self is gone. Most druids don't bother except maybe for their companion, but you get the occasional one with wild dragonscale fullplate or something that they stack with nat armor and barkskin and whatever deflection buff they can bum off the local cleric.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 06:25 PM	Thresholds for spellcasters can be higher or lower depending on their magic. I'm wondering how feasible it would be to have my guy change tactics and go for a straight-up-the-middle offense backed up by enough AC to grant essentially invulnerability for most combats. Displacement or Improved Blink can solve the nat-20 issue, and Fortification later on can deal with the lucky crit. I've spent exactly 2015 gp on AC for the entirety of his career, and I'm kicking around a change. So the question becomes, how much AC do I need to accomplish this, and how much will it cost me? I'm glad you responded so quickly to my callout, solbergb. You can always be counted on when it comes to detailed, analytical thinking. Also, I'm in the "optimization exercise" stage at this point, and I'd like just about all of it to be passive, as I can't stand spending standard actions on self-defensive buffing, with any "active" defense needing no more than a swift action, i.e. Aerial Alacrity. -Matt
rutrow424 07-05-07, 06:46 PM	What kind of caster are we talking? What level/feats/equip/etc? I'm wondering how feasible it would be to have my guy change tactics and go for a straight-up-the-middle offense backed up by enough AC to grant essentially invulnerability for most combats. Displacement or Improved Blink can solve the nat-20 issue, and Fortification later on can deal with the lucky crit. I've spent exactly 2015 gp on AC for the entirety of his career, and I'm kicking around a change. So the question becomes, how much AC do I need to accomplish this, and how much will it cost me? Also, I'm in the "optimization exercise" stage at this point, and I'd like just about all of it to be passive, as I can't stand spending standard actions on self-defensive buffing, with any "active" defense needing no more than a swift action, i.e. Aerial Alacrity. -Matt
solbergb 07-05-07, 07:03 PM	I very rarely try to play the "AC game", opting out after spending a small amount of gp in the baby levels. Out of 10 LG characters only three have any intention of maintaining AC and of those, one is able to buff the party while having good AC, one is able to heal the party while having good AC and one is a trapfinder who can switch to a low-ac/high damage character if the party needs it more. I've also got 3 characters with utterly abysmal AC. Of those three, only one is likely to be a "true cork" at the higher APL's, the other two will only be "kinda good", and he'll only "cork" via expertise/defensive/etc where that's better for the party than busting out new warchants, which I don't expect to be all that often. All 10 characters though, I feel to have "Sufficient defenses to do their job". AC just isn't very important to a lot of them in not spending significant time bleeding out.
solbergb 07-05-07, 07:05 PM	I'm wondering how feasible it would be to have my guy change tactics and go for a straight-up-the-middle offense backed up by enough AC to grant essentially invulnerability for most combats. Displacement or Improved Blink can solve the nat-20 issue, and Fortification later on can deal with the lucky crit. I'd shoot for 20+APL for that strategy, and see how much it costs you compared to what you want to spend on other stuff. If it costs what your next statboost improvement will cost, it's probably a nobrainer. If it will take all your cash for the next 3 levels to get there, don't do it. If something in the middle....you'll have to decide. I find an air-barrier is sufficient for most things, which is why my sorceress had swift fly from level 5, has phantom steed from level 11 and will do the overland flight/accellerated aviation thing level 13ish.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 07:13 PM	I'd shoot for 20+APL for that strategy, and see how much it costs you compared to what you want to spend on other stuff. If it costs what your next statboost improvement will cost, it's probably a nobrainer. If it will take all your cash for the next 3 levels to get there, don't do it. If something in the middle....you'll have to decide. I find an air-barrier is sufficient for most things, which is why my sorceress had swift fly from level 5, has phantom steed from level 11 and will do the overland flight/accellerated aviation thing level 13ish. Yeah, he's been using the air barrier since, well... forever, and it's more than sufficient. I'm mainly kicking around what would be required to make him a bit more badass. With the removal of APL 16, this guy's got more than enough firepower to take on the Living Greyhawk campaign, so I'm at that "just messing around" phase. So, what should I set as a goal? Would AC 35 be enough for 12-14? His neck slot is taken up, so he's sitting on 10 Con and 43hp before buffs; improving his hit points will be the next optimization exercise. I guess the real question would be: after AC 35, what would be the next "benchmark" to shoot for? And after that, at what point is it impractical to continue? He's arcane, btw. -Matt
solbergb 07-05-07, 07:34 PM	Uh...43 hitpoints before buffs is "one swat and you're dead" in APL14. I wouldn't even draw an aoo with that guy. However if you've piled on the temp hitpoints and have shield-other running from a friendly cleric, AC35 might do the trick. It would certainly make you immune to massed missile fire from mooks. I'd want triple digit hitpoints at APL14+ to even consider tanking, and over 70 before risking a single AOO. Where you are between 100 and 200 hitpoints and what kind of miss chance stuff you hase determines what kind of enemy 35ac is good enough against. That is good enough that your options would improve in a noticable way, if you fixed up that hitpoint problem. The next benchmark would be about 45AC, but every AC higher than 35 will help some. It won't come cheap though. I'd base the final number on your bank balance, rather than any theoretical thing. If it seems too expensive to raise it, it probably is.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 07:50 PM	Now you see why I'm shaky about AC 35. He's just fine as is, as he often goes through strings of modules without needing to know his AC, the Contingency (Empowered Mirror Image) takes care of the random shots, Evasion means he doesn't take AoE damage, Tumble lets him move around, and his Cleric cohort has Delay Death available. But anyways, the hp issue is the next step. I've actually been enjoying the 10 Con "handicap," as it makes every combat require a greater standard of tactics to survive. It's basically Hard Mode. And if he dies someday due to his 10 Con, that's okay; I'd rather spend 5K when it happens rather than all sorts of attribute points, feats, etc on "insurance." Hopefully, he'll be able to add Con +6 to another item MIC-style, solving that issue. Also, I don't expect this guy to ever have to suck up full-attacks, as he'll be pretty mobile. Like I said, he's got more than enough firepower to take on Living Greyhawk, now that APL 16 is gone. I've just never made defense a priority before. So far, he can get AC 30 with precast and swift spells alone, 34 if he casts Deflect. That's with spending 0GP. 45 sounds like a good goal for now, though at what point will any more improvements become a waste? Also, about what AC would be sufficient to be considered invulnerable at APL 12? Note: Upon further consideration, it looks like I'll get to play Expedition to the Demonweb Pits next year with this guy Sol, so that's 32 TUs of playing down to kill Drow (HELL YES), so it would be fun to invest in some badassness for once, especially when I'll probably be ushering a party of 8-9s. -Matt
CdrcJsn 07-05-07, 08:50 PM	Note: Upon further consideration, it looks like I'll get to play Expedition to the Demonweb Pits next year with this guy Sol, so that's 32 TUs of playing down to kill Drow (HELL YES), so it would be fun to invest in some badassness for once, especially when I'll probably be ushering a party of 8-9s. -Matt Ooh! Can I tag along? My Mystic Theurge should be around 11th when she gets out of RHoD. We can make an all arcane table :) Regarding your AC/defenses...I've seen another Arcanist with similar defenses get taken down by con draining incorporeals with life sense at a Core special. Mirror Image isn't a defense against those that don't need their normal senses to pin point you.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 09:49 PM	Ooh! Can I tag along? My Mystic Theurge should be around 11th when she gets out of RHoD. We can make an all arcane table :) Is she an elf, too? If so, which deity does she worship? Regarding your AC/defenses...I've seen another Arcanist with similar defenses get taken down by con draining incorporeals with life sense at a Core special. Mirror Image isn't a defense against those that don't need their normal senses to pin point you. That's where the Air Barrier comes in, of course. As well as the Death Ward armor to suck up the first shot; Divine Ward + Death Ward usually takes care of the rest. That Leadership feat is pretty awesome. -Matt
Suvarov454 07-05-07, 10:08 PM	+5 mithril fullplate +5 tower shield +4 gloves of dex (to max out mithril fullplate) +5 ring of deflection +5 amulet of natural armor (even aside wanting amulet of health there) +5 cloak or vest of resistance Those add up to ~180kgp and I think the wealth/levle is only about 260k at retirement, of which 110k is earned in levels 14-15. Improved combat expertise on a full BAB character translates to a +10 dodge bonus by level 15 for "free". (where "free" means I don't do any damage) Assuming I get the access I need, my Fighter/Cleric will be taking 4 levels of Battlesmith and CWI. That will save me 25k on armor enhancements, about the same on stat boosters, and at least that much on weapons. It also gives a +2 sacred bonus to AC. I'll still be making a serious investment in AC, both in GP and in feats, but I can get in striking range of 30+APL without fighting defensively and around 20 points of damage per hit. Almost better, I'd also have a touch AC of almost 20+APL (thank you Shield Ward!). Not the top-of-the line, but not too bad for my first LG character.
dkay807 07-05-07, 11:41 PM	I really think damage (and offense) is King at high APLs. Even if you have high AC, some things will still hit you and you might not have the best defenses for the spells and supernatural abilities of various monsters. Even if you do, your party won't. The best way to eliminate these threats is to kill them - and do it fast. I wouldn't give up on AC - but you need to make yourself a credible offensive threat. Daren Very well put. A high AC is great, but if you can't keep an opponents' attention, it won't matter whether or not you have a decent AC. At high APLs, the best defense is a strong offense - I rarely see combats last longer than two or three rounds max at APL 16, and I've retired two PCs with a third on the way (Level 15).
frupton 07-06-07, 12:43 AM	Thanks very much to everyone for their replies so far. I'll try to answer a few questions. Dwarf does not have Combat Expertise. He has an 8 Int, so that's not happening. He does have access to Boots of Speed, and our arcanists generally enlarge him and move him around via Benign Transposition. His gear plan is probably along the lines that solbergb listed, i.e. mithral full plate, tower shield, ring of protection. Hopefully armor/shield with various "suffixes" and +4 from GMV at higher APLs. Gloves of dex +4. Not sure between amulet of health vs. Nat armor. James, I'll suggest that wounding weapon. That does sound annoying.
Cardinal Teplin 07-06-07, 09:25 AM	I'm currently kicking around teching out my spellcaster to have a super-AC, so I'm wondering... Just what are the AC thresholds for each APL? Answers I've heard so far seem to bounce all over the map. -Matt Well that's because so do the monsters in mods. You can get monsters in APL 10 encounters that have a mere +8 to hit. Clearly they aren't much of a threat to anyone with a decent armour class. You can get monsters in APL 14 that have a single attack at +48 to hit. Yes, your AC is pretty much irrelevent to that guy. I'm just going on stuff I've seen, but there is a lot of variety out there. Higher APL doesn't smoothly increase the to-hit modifiers, it increases the range of what they can be. The low end will always be easy to avoid, the high end always near impossible. What you end up fighting in practice depends on what mods you play, and what encounters happen to be in them. There are, however, two things that high Ac will always do. It will always protect you against monsters with iterative (ie +15/+10/+5) attacks. How useful that is is variable, because they tend to be creatures with class levels and class level BAB goes up 1 per level. The really high to-hit attacks tend to be creatures with a lot of hit dice for their CR, and thus tend to use natural weapons which don't get iterative attacks*. The second is power attack. Generally only a problem with giants, but there are always exceptions. Anything that lowers a to-hit chance and raises damage is really really deadly at high APL, particularly if a crit occurs, but if they are having trouble hitting you, they probably won't use it. *Which is, incidently, an excellent reason to use wounding weapons. 1 con damage sounds like nothing, but against a 40 hit dice creature, it's actually a pretty deadly bonus.
AOSOL 07-06-07, 10:59 AM	What you may want to invest in is miss percentage. cloaks of displacement and greater displacement, mirror image, Blink rings and the like can remove the sting out of most creatures. They may have two claw attacks at +41 and a rake soon after but when one attack is disrupted a claw attack for 2d6+10 soon seem pretty useless. Another though your dwarf may want to consider is Dwarven defender at 8th level. If you retrain to fit the class you can soon watch your dwarf easily make his AC rocket to near invincibility. By the way At 7th level take exotic weapon master for uncanny blow so his damage will never be lacking. that may also require some retraining but it well worth it.
Mattastrophic 07-06-07, 11:53 AM	What kind of caster are we talking? What level/feats/equip/etc? He's all-arcane, 12th level, no defensive feats, with only a Mithral Buckler +1 and Boots of Speed for relevant equipment. So far, I've got him up to: 10 Base +6 - Greater Mage Armor (+6 armor) misc - Ectoplasmic Armor (+8 armor, vs incorporeals) +2 - Mithral Buckler +1 (+2 shield) +4 - Deflect (+6 shield, vs. one attack, force effect) +3 - Dexterity (+3 Dex) +2 - Magic Circle vs. Evil (+2 deflection, vs. evil) +5 - Dragonskin (+5 natural enhancement) +1 - Boots of Speed (Haste) +1 - Aerial Alacrity (unnamed, must be flying) +3 - fighting defensively w/ ray spells +4 - cover behind Phantom Steed (DC 15 Ride, probably won't stack with Aerial Alacrity) or Interposing Hand (standard action to cast) =AC 30, 33 when fighting defensively, 37 vs. one attack, +4 w/ cover, +2 v incorporeals That's with spells alone. Next up, I'm kicking around: +3 - +1 Defending Spiked Gauntlet w/ Greater Magic Weapon CL12 cast (+3 unnamed) +1 - Gloves of Dex +2 (+1 Dex enhancement) +1 - Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight) =AC 35, 38 when fighting defensively, 42 vs. one attack, +4 w/ cover, +2 v incorporeals for a reliable 35, max of 46 vs. one attack, by spending 17,305gp. And after that, I can purchase stuff that replaces my spellcasting (i.e. Ring of Protection to replace Magic Circle, better Buckler to replace Deflect) or improve the Gloves of Dexterity, or purchase items that grant more spellcasting, like Pearls and Extend Rods. Recommendations? Also, if I Extend Dragonskin and Magic Circle up to a four-hour duration, will that suffice for the day, or should I look at some Pearls III? I caught a bit of inspiration when I glanced over Luminous Armor from Exalted Deeds. Are there any other spells out there that lay down penalties to attack me, even if it's as small as Dazzled? I already know the power of Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Bands of Steel to inflict at least Entangled, etc, but I'm wondering about others. Ideally, I'd want something like Luminous Armor that has a long duration and imposes a penalty to attack. -Matt
Golorious 07-06-07, 01:31 PM	If you have the charisma for it, Divine Shield can really help out AC with out a loss to your bonus to hit. Combined with Shield Ward or Parry Shield it can certainly help your touch AC as well. It is important to be flexible. Having a damage mode and ac mode isn't a bad plan. For example Spirited Charge or Cork. I can get 32-36 AC at 9th when I cork without combat expertise or natural armor. But w/o spirited charge my damage isn't all that much. Law Devotion also helps set either AC or to Hit bonus. Again you need charisma and turning attempts to make this happen but it is a nice feat if it doesn't get closed. Since I play a mounted character that either corks or does mounted combat damage. Laws devotion would be ideal. the problem then is running out of turn attempts with Divine Might, Divine Shield, and Laws Devotion. If you have multiple combats a day each additional laws devotion is 3 turn attempts. It is hard to use it a second time w/o extra turning.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-06-07, 08:20 PM	+3 - fighting defensively w/ ray spellsMaybe, I'm misreading how you use this but I'm curious how many judges will even allow this. I don't think it's a legal tactic in the round you cast the spell since your aren't actually taking an attack action but rather attacking as part of spell casting. The round you cast the spell you can't be "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action" if you cast a spell. If you cast a ray spell there isn't a way to hold the charge so you can't gain it the following round either.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-06-07, 10:42 PM	Figured I may as well chime in with my druid cork. Currently his most common AC is 38, along with his rhino, but only while mounted. Here's his breakdown: 12th level Gnome Druid: Base 10 +9 Armor (+1 Death Ward Anti-Impact Dragonhide Full Plate) +3 Shield (+1 Rider's Shield) +1 Size +1 Dex +1 Deflection (Ring) +4 Natural Armor (Stone Form Wild Feat) +4 Riding for cover (Auto-makes the ride check) +5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor from Barkskin Rhino companion with 12th level druid boosts: Base 10 +11 Natural Armor +9 Armor (+1 Mithral Full Plate Barding) +3 Shield (+1 Rider's Shield) +1 Dex -1 Size +5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor from Barkskin Yeah, I spent the 2 feats on the Heavy Armor Proficiency and Exotic Shield Proficiency. My other 3 are Stone Form, Craft Wondrous Item, and Extend Spell. Also helps that both the druid and the rhino have over 100 HP. And the full compliment of druid spells at my disposal. And with reduce animal, there aren't many places I can't bring the rhino. Definitely a durable character. Main vulnerabilities are to incorporeals, touch attacks, and reflex saves (moreso for the druid than the rhino...at least the rhino has evasion).
_metz_ 07-07-07, 12:34 AM	Figured I may as well chime in with my druid cork. Currently his most common AC is 38, along with his rhino, but only while mounted. Here's his breakdown: 12th level Gnome Druid: Base 10 +9 Armor (+1 Death Ward Anti-Impact Dragonhide Full Plate) +3 Shield (+1 Rider's Shield) +1 Size +1 Dex +1 Deflection (Ring) +4 Natural Armor (Stone Form Wild Feat) +4 Riding for cover (Auto-makes the ride check) +5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor from Barkskin Rhino companion with 12th level druid boosts: Base 10 +11 Natural Armor +9 Armor (+1 Mithral Full Plate Barding) +3 Shield (+1 Rider's Shield) +1 Dex -1 Size +5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor from Barkskin Yeah, I spent the 2 feats on the Heavy Armor Proficiency and Exotic Shield Proficiency. My other 3 are Stone Form, Craft Wondrous Item, and Extend Spell. Also helps that both the druid and the rhino have over 100 HP. And the full compliment of druid spells at my disposal. And with reduce animal, there aren't many places I can't bring the rhino. Definitely a durable character. Main vulnerabilities are to incorporeals, touch attacks, and reflex saves (moreso for the druid than the rhino...at least the rhino has evasion). I know of several people who frown upon Druids with metal barding on their animal companions. Other than that, nice AC!
solbergb 07-07-07, 10:01 AM	I know of several people who frown upon Druids with metal barding on their animal companions. Other than that, nice AC! They can frown all they want, it's legal in LG. The animal doesn't have a code of conduct, although without proficiency feats spent it won't be able to use much beyond the lightest armor anyway. People really need to get over dictating other people's flavor choices on their characters. Most PC's don't fit the flavor text of their class exactly and the reasons are not in fact usually "muchkin powergaming". My wife's druid resisted metal armor on her companion till her own clan gave her "any mithril item" kinda access. She considered her companion an equal and for a long time insisted that it kept by the same rules. My tiger-nomad-druid by thinks of her companion as a bodyguard and she would consider it criminal not togive her companion the best armor it can use if she's going to put it in harms way all the time. Metal or not metal doesn't enter into the thinking, as she's primarily a shapeshifter, and just does the minimum druidic stuff required to keep control of her powers. She knows more about undead shapeshifters than anything about the "Old Faith" religion. She's been told that metal armor will disrupt her ability to control her shapeshifts so she doesn't wear it, and she "reveres nature" because understanding, respecting and being a part of the natural world lets her shift between two natural things (human and tiger) without becoming a lycanthrope-like abombination. The former is part of the druidic culture from birth, the latter was an outsider who got special training from druids to prevent becoming a monster. They're going to have different takes on what it means to be a druid.
_metz_ 07-07-07, 09:52 PM	They can frown all they want, it's legal in LG. The animal doesn't have a code of conduct, although without proficiency feats spent it won't be able to use much beyond the lightest armor anyway. People really need to get over dictating other people's flavor choices on their characters. Most PC's don't fit the flavor text of their class exactly and the reasons are not in fact usually "muchkin powergaming". My wife's druid resisted metal armor on her companion till her own clan gave her "any mithril item" kinda access. She considered her companion an equal and for a long time insisted that it kept by the same rules. My tiger-nomad-druid by thinks of her companion as a bodyguard and she would consider it criminal not to give her companion the best armor it can use if she's going to put it in harms way all the time. Metal or not metal doesn't enter into the thinking, as she's primarily a shapeshifter, and just does the minimum druidic stuff required to keep control of her powers. She knows more about undead shapeshifters than anything about the "Old Faith" religion. She's been told that metal armor will disrupt her ability to control her shapeshifts so she doesn't wear it, and she "reveres nature" because understanding, respecting and being a part of the natural world lets her shift between two natural things (human and tiger) without becoming a lycanthrope-like abombination. The former is part of the druidic culture from birth, the latter was an outsider who got special training from druids to prevent becoming a monster. They're going to have different takes on what it means to be a druid. OH I don't want to start this arguement again. Definitely not. It was just a bit of contention amongst some people I know, I personally am not going to state my opinion on the matter (Its never come up for me whilst DMing) but I know some who do. Its the same reason I decided NOT to make an Occult slayer, I would rather not deal with the issues involved. Lets not invite a big discussion on the subject! They always get a bit testy. I personally feel that the druid is a class that needs a lot of work in terms of what it can and can't do, its animal companions, wildshape, etc. I don't think the 3.5 druid class works that well. If you have a differing opinion than so be it, I was just saying SOME people won't like it ;)
Donald_Cannith 07-08-07, 01:10 PM	I agree with as lot of what is being said here. If possible, mix in one level of exotic weapon master for Uncanny Blow (sic?). Which allows you to Power Attack as though you were using a two handed weapon,but in reality wielding it in one. Every dwarf build needs one. ;)
Jay_Ibero_911 07-08-07, 03:26 PM	I agree with as lot of what is being said here. If possible, mix in one level of exotic weapon master for Uncanny Blow (sic?). Which allows you to Power Attack as though you were using a two handed weapon,but in reality wielding it in one. Every dwarf build needs one. ;) Not trying to start the argument about THIS again, but it should be said that there is still a great deal of disagreement about whether this works...so expect table variation with that...
Genghis Cohen 07-08-07, 03:27 PM	So I finally boosted the AC on my reckless raging barbarian. He owned a +1 starmetal dwarven waraxe, a +1 ghost touch silver dwarven waraxe, a masterwork cold iron dwarven waraxe and a pearlsteel dwarven waraxe by 8th level. He simply didn't invest in AC, other than a +1 ring of protection and a +1 mithral chain shirt. I sold the chain shirt and bought spiked +1 mithral full plate. His pre-rage AC went from 18 to 22. In a recent APL 10 mod, a BBEG was able to get off a full round attack before Thrak raged. BBEG had three attacks, all between 18 and 21. I smiled knowing that newly scratched armor would allow the party clerics to do something on their next actions other than to heal me. Later that mod, I had my AC boosted by buffs to 28. BBEG gets to me and hits on a die roll of 2. In that combat, my AC was useless. I do plan on buying a +1 animated mithral large shield, +2 gloves of dex, upgrading my ring of prot to +2, and (when i get access) buying a dusty rose ioun stone. That will get my AC to 28. Then I need to buy a few pearl 3s for magic vestment. That will get the pre-rage AC upwards of 36. Throw in a party druid or cleric with the plant domain (and pearl 2s and a metamagic rod of lesser extend that I should buy,) and we're looking at a pre-rage AC as high as 41. As others have already said, the value in AC will vary from encounter to encounter. While damage output is more important than AC, preserving party resources also has value. You don't want to enter a two round battle interactive with one cleric and no AC.
draxynnic 07-08-07, 10:36 PM	Not trying to start the argument about THIS again, but it should be said that there is still a great deal of disagreement about whether this works...so expect table variation with that... Uncanny Blow is silly anyway. "Yes, that's right, I do more damage with a bastard sword than I would with a greatsword!"
Jay_Ibero_911 07-08-07, 11:08 PM	Uncanny Blow is silly anyway. "Yes, that's right, I do more damage with a bastard sword than I would with a greatsword!" Looking at it like that it is a little absurd, but then again so is pretty much anything in the game if you look at it like that...
_metz_ 07-09-07, 03:39 AM	Uncanny Blow is silly anyway. "Yes, that's right, I do more damage with a bastard sword than I would with a greatsword!" So is swinging a chain with precision and finesse, yet slamming with as much force than a two handed sword, and covering ten feet around you at all times. It's just how the game is.