Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zarron 07-26-07, 09:07 PM	I've been following the rules for character creation but I was wondering exactly how much of my level progression should be planned in advance? Should I have a build figured out up till retirement, or is it ok to only have one level ahead planned out (so I can do it at the table if I get enough XP to go up a level?)
jstorrie 07-26-07, 09:13 PM	Plan as much or as little as you like. Some people like their characters to be more organic, and make the decisions based on what happens at the table. Others like to stick to a build they've thought out ahead of time. I think that the best idea is to plan out a build or two, and then be ready to tweak based on the way your character is developing in-game.
clannagh 07-26-07, 09:14 PM	I've been following the rules for character creation but I was wondering exactly how much of my level progression should be planned in advance? Should I have a build figured out up till retirement, or is it ok to only have one level ahead planned out (so I can do it at the table if I get enough XP to go up a level?) It is up to you. I personally prefer my characters to "develop" based on what experiences they have i the campaign. i still preplan well ahead but almost never stick to it. As a result, anyone that knows me will tell you my characters are not a liability in comabt but certianly arent that great either. The exception is if your concept includes prestige classes with tricky pre-requisites .. if the "Radiant Planar Shadow Heirophant" class requires 22 ranks in craft tin whistle plus whirlwind attack and weaponmastery subdual you had better make plans very early as to how you are going to get those ranks or feats before retirement.
Genghis Cohen 07-26-07, 09:14 PM	Making an initial plan until retirement is a great idea because it gives your character focus. This doesn't mean that you have to stick to the plan, but it does mean that you'll better prepared to avoid a randomly evolving character that does not contribute at a table. I also recommend that you download your region's meta-play guide so that you can look for meta-orgs that fit your character. These organizations may have requirements that should be accounted for in planning. If none of the meta-orgs interest you, don't join. If they do, join and have fun with it.
CdrcJsn 07-26-07, 09:26 PM	Just try to avoid being one of those players that have a Clr1/Wi3/Mnk1/Drd3 characters at APL8 because they didn't plan ahead. I usually plan 15 levels for my characters, but they usually change as I play. Keep a few simple rules in mind and you'll be fine: 1) If you're a caster, don't lose caster levels unless it's for a very good reason 1a) It's almost never a good reason 2) If you rely on weapons, try to avoid any classes that will cause you to lose BAB. Not only will BAB let you hit more often, but getting your iteratives as quickly as possible is a good thing. 3) If your character is a physical damage dealer, having as high a strength score as possible is also a good thing (even for monks and archers)
Zarron 07-26-07, 09:28 PM	It wasn't so much the optimization that I was concerned about (thou shall not give up caster levels), so much as what is realistic to plan out (how common are accesses for prestige classes, etc.). I figure I'll probably have a concept for a character and think them out to their next feat or major class choice. I only have the core three and the PHB II, so I'd also be hesitant to plan out too far in case I indulge and buy another book.
control freak 07-26-07, 09:33 PM	1a) It's almost never a good reason compleate champion disagrees :D after all swift action divine power is a little broken, heck swift flame strike is insane, id pay 2 caster levels any day for that, and thats not counteing the channle spell ablity:rolleyes: and if you play any divine caster you will be liked because you can heal pre and post combat, arcane casters are great too very few tables have an issue with those, dont fall into the trap many players do, DO NOT USE HIGH DEX MELEE CHARACTERS in greyhawk you die if you are high dex melee alot because you are mostly a twig and the only way you can even consider it is very carefuly create it, and i would not recomend it for first characters
clannagh 07-26-07, 09:51 PM	The problem with giving up caster levels or having an odd number of fighter levels or breaking any of the other optimising "commandments" is you upset the dice gods who abandon you, and you are doomed to roll 1's forever afterward.
Zarron 07-26-07, 11:19 PM	I've also seen a lot of discussion about stat bumps; it was of my opinion that barring casters that require lots spells with saving throws (like enchanters/illusionists), it was best to set your casting stat to 15 instead of 16. Am I right in thinking this? I would imagine unless you play a Gray Elf INT caster the trade off for two extra points to bump up skills, AC, or HPs out weighs the 16.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-27-07, 12:03 AM	I've also seen a lot of discussion about stat bumps; it was of my opinion that barring casters that require lots spells with saving throws (like enchanters/illusionists), it was best to set your casting stat to 15 instead of 16. Am I right in thinking this? I would imagine unless you play a Gray Elf INT caster the trade off for two extra points to bump up skills, AC, or HPs out weighs the 16. Yeah, pretty right on there. You generally want to build so you start with exactly one odd stat, so you make use of all 3 stat bumps.
copper_wyrmling 07-27-07, 01:46 AM	Yeah, pretty right on there. You generally want to build so you start with exactly one odd stat, so you make use of all 3 stat bumps. Of course, that's only really relevant in the last third of your LG career, requiring at least two years of play to get there - and you might get lucky and find a tome or an inherent stat-boost in a scenario. Starting with a 15 isn't a bad idea if there's somewhere valuable to put the points, but if you're not too keen on any of the other options, don't feel like you're wasting the points by starting with 16.
jstorrie 07-27-07, 03:50 AM	I heartily disagree with Jay_Ibero. Start with even stats, so you get the most bang right out of the box. You may snag a stat bump or Ioun stone from a mod, and more importantly, I feel that 1-4 and 9-12 are more stressful periods of a character's career than 5-8 and 13-15. A 16 in your casting stat is wise if your prime role is casting, though I'd agree that an 18 generally costs too much.
Genghis Cohen 07-27-07, 07:48 AM	A 16 in your casting stat is wise if your prime role is casting, though I'd agree that an 18 generally costs too much.I agree with this if its not a wizard. If its a wizard, you have three dump stats. Go for the 18 (or 20 of its a gray elf.)
UMiskatonic 07-27-07, 09:25 AM	Well, that's true if you need saving throw DCs. If you heal others, or use ranged touch attacks, you can get by with a 14/15 in your casting stat. My cleric started with a 14 wisdom, and I haven't missed a save on a curing spell once in the last ten levels.
rutrow424 07-27-07, 10:23 AM	Obviously the stat issue comes down to personal preference and specific build. IMO, having and odd stat works if you have a build/PC with need of 3-4 good stats, and you do not want to be gimped in all the others. I also like it for non-human builds where you can make the bonus stat actually be a 17 (like CON for a dwarf or DEX for an elf) because it feels like you are ahead of the game already. However, I have most often used all even numbers in my own PCs to get the bang right out of the box (ie 16 INT for extra wizard spell/DC/skills, 16 STR for to hit and dmg) being paranoid about survival. As for planning things out - decide to some degree what you want your PC to "be." I usually start with a PC concept (a new mini, something in a new book, etc) that dictates most of a build, then I'll poke around the boards to see the prevailing wisdom on such builds, and tweak to my tastes. It is much easier in year 7 to plan stuff out, since we know what is generally available (both via rules and likely access to be gained). OTOH, the retraining rules allow better flexibility to "correct" past errors or change on the fly if something interesting becomes available or if a PC grows organically. Either way, worry as much about it as you want, and have fun!
Zarron 07-27-07, 10:27 AM	Well, that's true if you need saving throw DCs. If you heal others, or use ranged touch attacks, you can get by with a 14/15 in your casting stat. My cleric started with a 14 wisdom, and I haven't missed a save on a curing spell once in the last ten levels. That's what I was thinking, since I'm building a Cleric, that a 15 is probably what I'll need (as, really, in the early levels, my spells are better held in reserve in case someone goes down -- by the time I have spells to spare, I'll be at 16 WIS, or better if I have scraped together money for stat items).
zoinks69 07-27-07, 11:49 AM	I'll agree with what's been said -- if there's a PrC out there you want, you'll naturally want to guide your bab. skills, feats, etc toward it. The caveat, which applies now more than ever, is what to do when a new book comes out with something you want, and now you can't get there...so you make a new PC, then another book comes out...etc. I'd like to think this is where at least some of the frustration (posted here and elsewhere) comes from -- LG progression and paperwork and rules doesn't move fast enough to keep up with the book-of-the-month reality.
Zarron 07-27-07, 03:02 PM	Heh, I haven't got to be a PC in a long time, so even if I just decide 15 Cleric it'll be nice just to actually be on the other side of the screen. And straight Cleric might be what I do with the books I have at the moment (PHB I, II, MM, DMG I). I was thinking of making a fighter type, but I've never played a divine caster before, so I decided to hold off on that (especially since Complete Warrior is probably my next acquisition if I find LG groups I can play with relatively consistently) so that I've got a depth to do something more than Power Attack and Combat Expertise feat tree or Dodge feat tree.
Grantor 07-27-07, 07:38 PM	Well, I'm a big cynic, so I wouldn't go planning a character beyond 6th level. But that's because I believe in the "D&D 4.0 is coming next summer" Heresy. Even planning a character to 12th level seems unreasonable to me, since that would take more than two years dedicated to just this one character; after all, most people have more than one character, especially when the first one reaches 6th level and can no longer join "younger" groups. But, my beliefs do not require you to believe (as they say).
JamesMaissen 07-27-07, 08:58 PM	I've been following the rules for character creation but I was wondering exactly how much of my level progression should be planned in advance? Should I have a build figured out up till retirement, or is it ok to only have one level ahead planned out (so I can do it at the table if I get enough XP to go up a level?) My advice is to have a plan until retirement. This is not to carve it in stone, but rather to serve as a default in case nothing changes. New items or access might occur that will change this plan, but having a plan helps you avoid mistakes and regrets. It also makes sure that you have weighed your options and won't regret your choices. -James PS: On to even/odd main stat, there are people in both camps. I'm certainly against buying the 17 in almost all situations, but the 15 or 16 decision is an individual call.
Zarron 07-28-07, 12:08 AM	I'm just working on builds of different classes to learn a bit about the system and get ideas for what I want to play. I figure, to not clutter up the boards, I'll try to keep my questions on builds here. How often/necessary is retraining? I was working on a Gray Elf Beguiler. If I take Combat Casting as my first feat (so the early levels I'm confident of making my cast on the defensive checks), at a later level can I (and should I?) retrain Combat Casting into Weapon Finesse (I'm thinking probably around Lvl. 4-5).
JamesMaissen 07-28-07, 01:22 AM	How often/necessary is retraining? I was working on a Gray Elf Beguiler. If I take Combat Casting as my first feat (so the early levels I'm confident of making my cast on the defensive checks), at a later level can I (and should I?) retrain Combat Casting into Weapon Finesse (I'm thinking probably around Lvl. 4-5). Well to the first question, people have been making characters without it for years. In my mind it allows two things. First it allows you to adapt to new changes in the rules that you would have made your character with had they been around. Second it allows you to pick some things for early levels rather than sacrificing for later payoffs. To the second thing you mentioned, Weapon Finesse requires a +1 BAB, so a 1st level Beguiler could not take it. Therefore you can't later retrain your 1st level feat into it. With the exception of skills, retraining only allows you to make builds that you could have done from the ground up. You can't have a 1st level beguiler with Weapon Finesse so you can't retrain your first level feat into it. -James
_metz_ 07-30-07, 03:28 AM	I have only ever heard one good arguement for straight fighter. It's cool. Thats it :) (15th level Fighter is something to behold, and the aim was to get to 16th and play in the high level campaign)
clannagh 07-30-07, 03:54 AM	I've also seen a lot of discussion about stat bumps; it was of my opinion that barring casters that require lots spells with saving throws (like enchanters/illusionists), it was best to set your casting stat to 15 instead of 16. Am I right in thinking this? I would imagine unless you play a Gray Elf INT caster the trade off for two extra points to bump up skills, AC, or HPs out weighs the 16. well .. you do need to factor in possible extra spells from higher casting stats in the equation as well generally though casters are the one exception to the .. "all your points in one stat is sub-optimal" rule
Zarron 07-30-07, 03:25 PM	At the moment, I've decided to try and refine my cleric build. I read through my roommate's Complete Divine, and the only prestige class that jumped out at me was Divine Oracle (since I picked Celestian over Boccob after reading the expanded deities and checking the LG deity source book, I liked the idea of serving one of the lesser deities). Halfling Cleric of Celestian (Lvl.1) Alignment: True Neutral Domains: Knowledge, Travel Stats, after racial modifiers: STR 12 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 15 CHA 12 Feat: Divine Ward -- this seems really useful, especially since my small size (and eventual armor) will restrict my movement. I couldn't think of a better choice at this level, since I'm primarily going to be a healer/buffer for most of my career (occasionally getting to do divination work at my later levels). Skills: Knowledge (Religion), Heal. --- Lvl. 2 -- Cleric Lvl. 3 -- Cleric; Feat: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) Lvl. 4 -- Cleric (Bump Wisdom) Lvl. 5 -- Cleric (Skill ranks 8 this level) Lvl. 6 -- Divine Oracle (I don't know what feat I should take) Lvl. 7 -- Divine Oracle Lvl. 8 -- Divine Oracle (Bump Wisdom) Here's where I get into trouble; I'm not sure how much more the stuff I pick up in Divine Oracle is going to help me beyond here. And since the bonus caster level doesn't help my turning, at this point I'm not really able to turn anything that comes at the party. Would it be best to slide back into Cleric for the rest of my career, or am I underestimating what Divine Oracle is giving me?
JamesMaissen 07-30-07, 09:45 PM	Halfling Cleric of Celestian (Lvl.1) Alignment: True Neutral Domains: Knowledge, Travel Stats, after racial modifiers: STR 12 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 15 CHA 12 I wouldn't take the hit to CON that you are taking. Pay for the 14 CON as it will give you more options when things get rough (such as heal the fighter rather than having to retreat to heal yourself). -James
kegdrainer 07-31-07, 12:44 AM	Since you are going for Divine Oracle and not as a turning cleric, you might want to drop the CHA to 10. If you plan on running around in full plate, the extra dex will not help either so pump the CON to 14 and as a suggestion INT to 12. The extra skill point might be a bit more helpful. For the level 6 feat, you can not go wrong with Craft wondrous Item
Zarron 08-06-07, 12:46 PM	I finished my first two Geoff intro mods this weekend. I debated on what was the best use of my gold with my Lvl.1 Cleric; I decided that a Wand of Cure Light Wounds was probably the best idea (it lets me relax a bit on holding back my spells and be more aggressive in using them to Bless and buff rather than holding back in case someone gets hurt). That leaves me with around 125~ GP. It seems like a wise investment to me; are there any other general use items I should stock up on? I imagine Scrolls and Potions of Cure Light Wounds (and later on, Lesser Restoration/Remove Disease) are cleric "essentials" that I should be bringing to the group. Are there other spells I'm overlooking to have scrolls/potions of ready and available?
Lupo 08-06-07, 03:05 PM	I finished my first two Geoff intro mods this weekend. I debated on what was the best use of my gold with my Lvl.1 Cleric; I decided that a Wand of Cure Light Wounds was probably the best idea (it lets me relax a bit on holding back my spells and be more aggressive in using them to Bless and buff rather than holding back in case someone gets hurt). That leaves me with around 125~ GP. It seems like a wise investment to me; are there any other general use items I should stock up on? I imagine Scrolls and Potions of Cure Light Wounds (and later on, Lesser Restoration/Remove Disease) are cleric "essentials" that I should be bringing to the group. Are there other spells I'm overlooking to have scrolls/potions of ready and available? have scrolls of all those that are VERY situational or that are good to have ANOTHER time ;) level zero: detect magic, read magic level 1: bless, comprehend languages, detect animals or plants, detect evil, detect undead, magic weapon, obscuring mist, protection from evil, remove fear ciao martin m.
JamesMaissen 08-09-07, 01:13 AM	It seems like a wise investment to me; are there any other general use items I should stock up on? I imagine Scrolls and Potions of Cure Light Wounds (and later on, Lesser Restoration/Remove Disease) are cleric "essentials" that I should be bringing to the group. Are there other spells I'm overlooking to have scrolls/potions of ready and available? Since we are tied to the silly random magic item tables, I'd suggest that you look over the list of 1st level divine scrolls. Make a list of those that you could possibly use and plan to buy at least one of them. For things like comprehend languages I would suggest multiple copies. Think of them as insurance with collateral. When you encounter that first shadow and someone doesn't have a magic weapon.. would it be worth 25gp to have one? It'd be worth a LOT more.. so buy one. Even if you never use it, you'll feel better when it comes up. After you get some cash then consider certain select 2nd level scrolls for emergencies. When 150gp is not a big investment then get utility scrolls.. and when it's cost of doing business then get 'everyday' ones. Just keep all of your consumables in their proper category based upon your gold intake: emergency, special occasion and everyday. If you don't confuse them then you will increase your character's potential greatly.. if you do confuse them then you will mismanage your money and think that consumables 'aren't worth it'. -James
Zarron 08-09-07, 11:26 AM	Since we are tied to the silly random magic item tables, I'd suggest that you look over the list of 1st level divine scrolls. Make a list of those that you could possibly use and plan to buy at least one of them. For things like comprehend languages I would suggest multiple copies. Think of them as insurance with collateral. When you encounter that first shadow and someone doesn't have a magic weapon.. would it be worth 25gp to have one? It'd be worth a LOT more.. so buy one. Even if you never use it, you'll feel better when it comes up. After you get some cash then consider certain select 2nd level scrolls for emergencies. When 150gp is not a big investment then get utility scrolls.. and when it's cost of doing business then get 'everyday' ones. Just keep all of your consumables in their proper category based upon your gold intake: emergency, special occasion and everyday. If you don't confuse them then you will increase your character's potential greatly.. if you do confuse them then you will mismanage your money and think that consumables 'aren't worth it'. -James I was sort of getting that impression; probably after my next module I'll pick up a scroll of magic weapon and comprehend languages at the minimum (I already picked up a wand of cure light wounds with the money from my first two modules, so I think I'm pretty good there). Probably a scroll of Protection from Evil also, and then I'll have to look through potions to see what sort I should pick up. I read through the archived "what to do with the gold" etc. from your first few ARs; in people's experience, do most other players plan for such contingencies, or am I going to be the one using consumables at a fast rate because other players don't bring their own oils of magic weapon or curative/restoration items?