Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stormcloud 09-13-07, 02:32 PM	I'm putting together a Cleric for Greyhawk Ruins, maybe at some point going Warpriest if the character develops that way. I'd like him to primarily be in a support role, healing and buffing, etc., but able to bring the hurt (with flair!) when necessary. Here's what I'm thinking: Human Cleric 14/10/14/10/15/12 Worhips Joramy Domains: War and Fire Carries a Quarterstaff (more flair) and uses it two-handed (no shield, then?) What about feats? That's where I'm at a loss, never having played a cleric before. TIA
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 02:43 PM	I'm putting together a Cleric for Greyhawk Ruins, maybe at some point going Warpriest if the character develops that way. I'd like him to primarily be in a support role, healing and buffing, etc., but able to bring the hurt (with flair!) when necessary. Here's what I'm thinking: Human Cleric 14/10/14/10/15/12 Worhips Joramy Domains: War and Fire Carries a Quarterstaff (more flair) and uses it two-handed (no shield, then?) What about feats? That's where I'm at a loss, never having played a cleric before. TIA Well, with low dex it doesn't seem like you will be using the Qstaff as a double weapon. In that case, why not just wield it one handed and use a shield? The flair aspect really would require you using it as a double weapon. You can also wield it two-handed and use a buckler... I'm not well versed in cleric spellcasting so we'll leave that for the next guy.
copper_wyrmling 09-13-07, 03:22 PM	Well, with low dex it doesn't seem like you will be using the Qstaff as a double weapon. In that case, why not just wield it one handed and use a shield? It's a two-handed weapon, so that's not an option. Augment Healing is a good healer-cleric feat. Extra Turning + Divine Ward is nice for a support type (although I'm not sure if Divine Ward can be taken at L1, it may have other prereqs). Skill Focus (Concentration) is actually an okay feat at low levels, you'd want to retrain it (probably into a metamagic feat) later on. Power Attack is obligatory at some point if you plan to wade into melee. Buy an oil of shillelagh or two if you use a quarterstaff: it's a nice and fairly cheap buff. I wouldn't advise taking Warpriest if your goal is to be a better melee cleric. Just stick with cleric, rack up the caster levels, and get your Divine Power / Quickened Divine Power online sooner and more times / day (and when you're not melee'ing, being a full caster means you have to work really hard to be less than useful). If you don't have another PrC in mind, you also might want to consider taking the Destruction domain (instead of War / Fire) and Extra Smiting: it's a nice boost for a melee cleric with a lot of cleric levels.
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 03:29 PM	Unless it's been erraticized the PHB says: "You can also strike with either end singly, a fact that allows you to take full advantage of openings in your opponent’s defenses. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." Mmm, yummy...
copper_wyrmling 09-13-07, 03:32 PM	Unless it's been erraticized the PHB says: "You can also strike with either end singly, a fact that allows you to take full advantage of openings in your opponent’s defenses. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." Mmm, yummy... I believe the usual interpretation is that this is to stop people from attempting to use Small quarterstaffs as one-handed double weapons (it's the same for other double weapons: they all have the same text iirc). A normal-sized quarterstaff is still a two-handed weapon (listed as such in the weapon tables) and requires two hands to wield properly.
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 03:47 PM	I'll agree to disagree on this one. I believe you can attack with one end of a double weapon and treat it as an attack with the corresponding half of the weapon (two-bladed sword = longsword, quarterstaff = club, orc double-axe = battleaxe, etc.) excepting, of course, feats and special abilities that apply to the constituent weapon (longsword, club, battleaxe, etc.) Should there be a penalty to attacking with such a long weapon one-handed? Realistically, yes, but who cares about realism.
Mommy was an Orc 09-13-07, 04:36 PM	I'll agree to disagree on this one. I believe you can attack with one end of a double weapon and treat it as an attack with the corresponding half of the weapon (two-bladed sword = longsword, quarterstaff = club, orc double-axe = battleaxe, etc.) excepting, of course, feats and special abilities that apply to the constituent weapon (longsword, club, battleaxe, etc.) Should there be a penalty to attacking with such a long weapon one-handed? Realistically, yes, but who cares about realism. Actually, this is one of the disadvantages of relying on the SRD over PHB. PHB pg 113 uses a medium human wielding a small quarterstaff in one hand as an example of when someone might use a quarterstaff in a single hand. As you only do 1d4 and have a penalty of -2 to hit, it isn't really worth that much.
stormcloud 09-14-07, 11:08 AM	Thanks for the input so far! Would spontaneous domain casting be worthwhile?
_metz_ 09-14-07, 11:45 AM	not if you are going warpriest. (still don't get the joramy thing, terrible for a warpriest)
copper_wyrmling 09-14-07, 12:02 PM	Re spontaneous domain casting: if I remember correctly, you give up spontaneous curing for it. If you see your primary role as healing/buffing, then you're going to want the ability to cure spontaneously. You can regain that ability with a feat - Spontaneous Healer, from Complete Divine - but you can only use it a number of times/day equal to your wisdom modifier. Alternatively, you could avoid the spontaneous domain casting feature and take the Domain Spontaneity feat, allowing you to spend turn attempts to cast domain spells spontaneously (if you want spontaneous divine power, for example). Personally, given that you see your usual role as being support, I'd avoid the spontaneous domain casting as a long-term choice. However, it could be useful at the very low levels, where you have very few spells/day, since spontaneous domain casting lets you prep cure spells in your domain slots (which might be more useful than burning hands / magic weapon). not if you are going warpriest. (still don't get the joramy thing, terrible for a warpriest) I'm not really sure what you mean. I don't think Warpriest is an especially good PrC for someone who wants to play a melee cleric (you lose far too many caster levels), but Joramy has a pretty good set of domains for battle clerics (war, destruction, competition), and quarterstaff has some advantages as a favored weapon (at low levels, it's a legal target for oil of shillelagh; at mid-high levels, you can put (quickened) brambles / spikes on it).
Mommy was an Orc 09-14-07, 12:23 PM	Alternatively, you could avoid the spontaneous domain casting feature and take the Domain Spontaneity feat, allowing you to spend turn attempts to cast domain spells spontaneously (if you want spontaneous divine power, for example). In general, I think the spontaneous domain casting feature+Spontaneous Healer is superior to the domain spontaneity feat. Most Clerics don't need 5+ cure X wounds a day, but they do need the turning attempts that domain spontaneity uses. Plus, you can put cure spells into your domain slots, which is often nice if you've got particularly lousy domain choices for one particular spell level or at low level where you're compensating for a relatively low wisdom.
UMiskatonic 09-14-07, 12:36 PM	I'd take Power Attack. A quarterstaff can be swung like a bat, and if you need to, you should be able to do some significant melee damage. With Bull's Strength, Divine Power, Spikes, etc, you'll be capable of being a melee bruiser. So, one feat for beat-down, and the rest of your character for support. I'd consider Augment Healing, and one Crafting feat. Scribe Scroll has been good to my cleric, Craft Wondrous and Craft Arms and Armor are also really good choices. Here's why. Job one of a cleric is to fix hit point damage. It's not that hard to do, and you're a spontaneous healer. If you have spells left, you're fine at this role. Also: You can use a wand of CLW. Job two is to fix conditions. Whether that's a monster that can breathe fire, or an invisible rogue, or a poison gas that fatigues everyone, it's YOU, buddy. So, you'll need a Heal check to treat poison and disease, and either memorize, or have a scroll of the various Fix XXX spells. (Neutralize Poison, Lesser Restoration, etc.) Some spells, like Invisibilty Purge and Dispel Magic should always be available, and you can drop them for healing if you end up fighting a wild bear. You'll also need to become good at threat assessment. Are your opponents a bunch of low-level mooks? Cast Bless and step into melee. It's slow, but easy on your resources. When you fight the dangerous half-fiend wizard later, you'll still have spells left, and you'll need them. --------------------------------------------------------- Charisma of 12? This tells me you are indecisive. I'd either push it up, and become really good at turning undead and social skills, or let it go, and put those build points elsewhere, namely strength and constitution. I'd choose CON myself, because you'll never have an amulet of health. Strength can be raised easily with spells and/or magic items. ---------------------------------------------------------- Finally, I'd remember to avoid damage dealing cleric spells. They generally not all that good, and if you have a solid strength and power attack, you have a way to do damage. This will allow you to focus on your support role, and do a good job of it. Personally, I do this with my cleric 10, and REALLY like spells that either last all day (Stalwart Pact, Magic Vestment, Magic Circle), or that affect the entire group (Magic Circle, Bless, Prayer, Mass anything).
_metz_ 09-14-07, 02:08 PM	I'm not really sure what you mean. I don't think Warpriest is an especially good PrC for someone who wants to play a melee cleric (you lose far too many caster levels), but Joramy has a pretty good set of domains for battle clerics (war, destruction, competition), and quarterstaff has some advantages as a favored weapon (at low levels, it's a legal target for oil of shillelagh; at mid-high levels, you can put (quickened) brambles / spikes on it). Please check the character creation thread, my views on best way to make a battle cleric are in there. (full cleric, go a dwarf, worship someone like Clandeggin Silverbeard, etc) I don't rate the quarterstaff at high levels. 1. Its made of Wood. That means you can't get a starmetal/adamntine version. You want your Primary weapon to be one of these imho. 2. Its got dodgy crit. Considering most Battle Cleric Builds have improved Crit, thats a bad thing. 3. When wielded two handed for Power Attack its useful, but not as good as other weapons 4. Oil of Shillelagh is an action to use. If you don't get the opportunity to buff, its annoying. You want your primary weapon to be useful ALL the time. 5. Brambles/Spikes are cool, I'll give it that, but thats about the only reason I like the Quarterstaff. However, these Spells REALLY only hit their uber usefulness after level 11 when you can Divine Power +Quickened Brambles, etc in the first round of combat. (Whilst waiting to be hasted) I just didn't see Joramy as the best source of a Battle Cleric. Mainly because I know the Dwarf Builds are best, and Joramy being a basically human deity, jsut seemed odd to me when reconciling the build. For a Human it would probably work, I've probably just missed the potential of Joramy. (I had forgotten she had war domain lol, so will rescind my earlier point, free weapon focus is a good thing, even if its in a quarterstaff) Battle Clerics need Str, Wisdom and Con, hence I like Dwarves. (as the best upgrade you will get in either con or wisdom is +2 in one of them, +6 in the other, rather than +6 in both) (can be Str: 16, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10 Wis: 16, Cha: 6 at level 4, rest of the stat bumps to Str)
Mommy was an Orc 09-14-07, 02:45 PM	1. Its made of Wood. That means you can't get a starmetal/adamntine version. You want your Primary weapon to be one of these imho. Earth Hammer is an open spell, swift action, turns your quarterstaff into one of those. Also, with Spikes or Brambles going, you don't really truly need to worry about DR in any case. +10 damage is in many ways 'reduce DR by 6-9'
UMiskatonic 09-14-07, 03:02 PM	Well, it's a tradeoff, like everything else.... Can I get an adamantine quarterstaff? Probably not. Is it cool to be swinging the weapon of your god? Probably so. It's up the the original poster to make this decision, and taking a less-powerful, more flavorful choice is perfectly valid, even if it's not what you would do yourself. My paladin took Daunting Presence at 15th level. Why? Because it fit well, even though there were plenty of other more optimal choices.
stormcloud 09-14-07, 03:32 PM	That's what I'm thinking. I'm not interested in "most optimal" but more character flavor. At this point, it's a new character for GR, so he probably won't advance to the end of the line anyway. Warpriest is probably out. I just want someone stylish to play. Thanks for all the help!
copper_wyrmling 09-14-07, 06:01 PM	UMiskatonic's advice is really good, stormcloud. He's said pretty much everything I would cover. Please check the character creation thread, my views on best way to make a battle cleric are in there. (full cleric, go a dwarf, worship someone like Clandeggin Silverbeard, etc) I don't rate the quarterstaff at high levels. I'm pretty sure I posted in that thread - and I'll pass your views on quarterstaff clerics on to the GMs who've grumbled at Yolande doing 300 damage/round with her Joramite beatstick ;) (To clarify, I've played a Joramite full-caster with a part-time focus on melee for 15 levels - although she's not remotely optimized, using the TWF feats for style - so I feel I can give a somewhat informed judgement on this :) ) 1. Its made of Wood. That means you can't get a starmetal/adamntine version. You want your Primary weapon to be one of these imho. 2. Its got dodgy crit. Considering most Battle Cleric Builds have improved Crit, thats a bad thing. Really? I don't remember that being a feature of most builds in that thread: you simply don't have the feats to spare (crafting feats, extra smiting, and metamagic tend to take priority). MwaO covered the DR aspect. 4. Oil of Shillelagh is an action to use. If you don't get the opportunity to buff, its annoying. You want your primary weapon to be useful ALL the time. That's a low-level trick: actions aren't usually as critical there as they are at high levels. You basically use the oil of shillelagh in the same way that other builds use oils / scrolls of magic weapon - not every combat, that's too expensive, but when you need it, it's there. That seems to fit pretty well with the OP's desire to be able to wade into melee when needed. 5. Brambles/Spikes are cool, I'll give it that, but thats about the only reason I like the Quarterstaff. However, these Spells REALLY only hit their uber usefulness after level 11 when you can Divine Power +Quickened Brambles, etc in the first round of combat. (Whilst waiting to be hasted) When Yolande is playing tank in a party, what typically happens is: Round 1: Divine Power, Quickened Brambles, move in Round 2: click Boots of Speed, Quickened Divine Favor, full attack (and Zealot Pact may trigger depending on alignment: Commune helps ensure I get to trigger ZP once/mod) If I think DR is an issue, Round 2 will be Earthhammer instead of Quickened Divine Favor: if Yol is tanking, she'll have both prepped. At lower levels, brambles is what you cast in the round you move in (action starvation isn't as much of an issue there as it is at high levels). Of course, a more common scenario for Yol, these days, is she's playing spellcaster and round 1 goes something like righteous wrath / bolt of glory / heal / holy word / holy aura / power word stun / greater command / greater dispel / detonate holly berry bombs / activate bead of karma / turn undead, plus a quickened recitation. Keeping full caster levels gives you a lot of options :) I just didn't see Joramy as the best source of a Battle Cleric. Mainly because I know the Dwarf Builds are best, and Joramy being a basically human deity, jsut seemed odd to me when reconciling the build. Best? Probably not, in the sense of mechanical power, unless you're really leveraging Destruction domain smites and want the Weapon Focus (I think she's one of very few War/Destruction deities). There's a distinction between "the best" and "strong contributor to any party": the second category is far broader, and the first is pretty subjective. Battle Clerics need Str, Wisdom and Con, hence I like Dwarves. (as the best upgrade you will get in either con or wisdom is +2 in one of them, +6 in the other, rather than +6 in both) (can be Str: 16, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10 Wis: 16, Cha: 6 at level 4, rest of the stat bumps to Str) Dwarves are good - I think the human bonus feat is actually more important for some cleric builds, though. From memory, the reason the dwarf battle clerics really win out is that they have access to some excellent domain combinations like Strength/Destruction. MwaO, re Spontaneous Healer + spontaneous domain casting, at the low levels it's not 5x/day, it's 2-3x/day (with starting wisdom 15-16). You either prep cure spells, or you bet that in mods with three combats/day you'll need to cast at most one cure/fight on average (and that includes cure minors for stabilization). That doesn't seem like it gives a lot of margin for error in difficult encounters, especially for someone who's new to playing a cleric.
clannagh 09-15-07, 04:13 AM	My cleric changed to joramy mainly for role play reasons but a bonus was picking up quarterstaff. Seems to me by the time you can afford an adamantine weapon you can pretty much double hand power attack past most DR so I have never seen wood being a big disadvantage. Plus if you really decide against the Quarterstaff as your main weapon simply drop the war domain and take competition or destruction instead.
cycloptic_squirrel 09-19-07, 07:53 AM	Joramy seems like fun to me, you're practically required to argue with everyone and you get to hit things with a stick! "I forged this sacred waraxe out of starmetal I wrested from the earth with my bare hands in the treacherous mines of Kallaen-Bar." "I found this stick in the woods a few days ago. It works just as well." "You're comparing this masterpiece of a weapon to a random stick you happened across?" "Of course I am. It allows me to do just as well as you in a fight." "Surely you jest. I average five more damage a swing than you do." "Yeah? And you're ugly. Besides, I'll cast recitation and it'll bring me even with you." "But I can also cast recitation. And-" "AND when you do, you'll still be ugly." The cleric I play worships a god of beauty and farming. It's probably for the best. :shifty: