Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golorious 05-30-07, 01:05 PM	So the idea of this character is to be a twf fighter that can find and disable traps. He is in personality more of a swashbuckler than a rogue. Tumble, Balance, Climb, Jump, Search, and Disable Device are all I’m really worried about. He is a Human male Rhenee, with a flair for tumbling and flanking. I have thought a lot about going 3 swashbuckler/12 rogue for critical strike but I think it comes too late for what I want to do with the character. As it is my 6th or 7th character I’m not sure how much play it will get. Also he will only likely get used in the Greyhawk ruins campaign. I took quickdraw so that I don’t have to worry about having only one weapon out at the beginning of the fight. I will either use a rapier and a kukri or two kukris. I started trying to make an invisible blade but I like these more. STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 8 1) Rogue – TWF, Telling Blow, +1d6 SA 2) Swashbuckler – Weapon Finesse* 3) Swashbuckler – Quickdraw, Grace +1 4) Swashbuckler 5) Rogue 6) Rogue – Daring Outlaw +3d6 SA, Dodge +1 7) Swashbuckler +4d6 SA 8) Swashbuckler 9) Swashbuckler – ITWF, + 5d6 SA 10) Swashbuckler – Dodge +2, Acrobatic Chage 11) Swashbuckler +6d6 SA, Grace +2, Improved Flanking 12) Swashbuckler – GTWF 13) Swashbuckler +7d6 SA 14) Swashbuckler, Lucky 15) Swashbuckler +8d6 SA <feat>, Doge +3 Or 1) Rogue – TWF, Telling Blow, +1d6 SA 2) Swashbuckler – Weapon Finesse* 3) Swashbuckler – Quickdraw, Grace +1 4) Swashbuckler 5) Rogue 6) Rogue Daring Outlaw, +3d6 SA, Dodge +1 7) Fighter – ITWF 8) Fighter – Improved Buckler Defense or Improved Critical Kukri 9) Swashbuckler Staggering Strike, +4d6 SA 10) Rogue 11) Swashbuckler +5d6 SA 12) Swashbuckler – GTWF, Dodge +2 13) Swashbuckler +6d6 SA, Acrobatic Charge, Grace +2 14) Swashbuckler – Improved Flanking 15) Swashbuckler <feat> +7d6 SA
_metz_ 05-30-07, 01:19 PM	you only need 10 levels of rogue for crippling strike, and the benefits of being a TWF flanker are more suited to rogue abilities than swashbuckler. Finally if you want to find and disable traps, 140 skill points plus another 36 or so from Int is something to look at. I JUST posted a good TWF rogue/swash build, here it is again: 1. Rogue1: Feat: Two Weapon Fighting <Human Feat Deadly Defense> 2. Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse 3. Swashbuckler: Weapon Focus (kukri or cutlass) 4. Rogue2: 5. Rogue3: 6. Rogue4: Daring Outlaw 7. Rogue5: 8. Rogue6: 9. Rogue7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Rogue8: 11. Rogue9: 12. Rogue10: Crippling strike Feat: Savvy Rogue 13. Rogue11: 14. Rogue12: 15. Rogue13: Feat: Disemboweling strike, Rogue ability (your choice) If human: as Str is not so important in such a build, I would go: STR 10, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 10 This way you use all stat boosters and con will be VERY important with Rogue Hit dice and saves. Also you don't want negative charisma for all the rogue skills like bluff, UMD, Diplomacy, Intimidate etc. Though stats and race are role playing choices. Weapon Focus is important as your BAB won't be amazing and gets you disemboweling strike (1d4 con damage on sneak attacks as well as -2 strength, and 8d6 sneak attack, not bad hey) Disemboweling strike is a good option (1d4 con damage on sneak attacks in addition to all the other stuff) You only get it once per opponent, but its still pretty nifty. You get 15 levels of grace and dodge bonus to AC, as well as 8d6 sneak attack. And words cannot express how good savvy rogue and crippling striek are (-2 str on each sneak attack, and even stuff immune to the sneak attack takes the -2 str) Savvy Rogue also improves your other rogue ability (defensive roll gets much better) You shouldn't be trying to go for improved critical or a high str build unless you want to be power attacking '(in which case go an elven courtblade and a different build altogether), your static damage is not much at all, and if you can't sneak attack won't be able to do much in either case. Why rogue is better than swashbuckler: (from other post) 13 Rogue/2 Swashbuckler: BAB: +11/+6/+1 (but with Improved TWF have 5 attacks) You will have the following abilities: Sneak attack +8d6 Improved uncanny dodge Crippling Strike +2 Reflex saves +3 Dodge Bonus to AC Another Rogue special ability of your choice. Rogue is actually a great class all the way through, and with TWF and weapon finesse, as well as crippling strike (and other special ability) Once you get to level 12, TAKE SAVVY ROGUE: (Rogue special abilities improve: all of them!, and Crippling strike NOW APPLIES TO STUFF IMMUNE TO SNEAK ATTACK) - so even if fighting undead, you can potentially, if all attacks hit, take 10 str of stuff each ROUND if flanking. As for other feats, Improved TWF will net you lots of attacks each round, taking str of anything you can flank etc, and you will dish out sneak attack damage to anything living very nastily. Now you will have lots of skill points, and be able to contribute. And rogues/swashbucklers can be Role played the same way, just its better in this case (with no PrC) to go rogue then swashbuckler. Definitely rogue for the win. Rogue special abilities are crazy good, and Savvy Rogue is open. In essence the rogue build is much better at inflicting damage due to crippling strike etc, has more skill points, and funky class abilities outweigh the swashbuckler's benefits
UMiskatonic 05-30-07, 02:10 PM	Well, maybe, and maybe not. If you want to be able to TAKE damage, swashbuckler has the benefit of a better fort save, and more hit points, and a better base attack. That might seem basic, but it's important. My experience in LG, is that at the high level game, rogues start to break down. You get beaten up by bruisers pretty quickly, and have trouble with crit-immune and high-AC opponents. The skill points are nice, but after APL 10 or so, all the escape artist in the world won't get you away from the huge behir, and all the hide in the world won't let you sneak past the dread wraith. I think rogue3/swash 12 is a perfectly good way to go.
Golorious 05-30-07, 02:50 PM	_metz_, That is a good build but not the direction I want. I did think quite a bit about the 10+ levels of Rogue and decided I didn't want to be a rogue as much as a swashbuckler. Primarily I want to be more fighterish then roguish. Also I feel the power curve on that build is very late in life. For me that build looses too much BAB and damage, then I am comfortable with, and doesn't compensate for it until 12th level Critical strike. Not having the third level of swashbuckler may get a second rogue special ability but it does not give +int to damage. So, without any strength your build can only do damage when flanking or fighting defensively. Fighting defensively with deadly defense is a -4 to hit for +1d6 damage. This seems like it compounds what I perceive as the build’s problem of not enough damage outside of flanking. So at 15th level with 3 less bab and fighting defensively that – 7 to hit to do 2d6+str damage out side of a sneak with a rapier. With both builds I presented I can have max Disable Device and Search, Tumble, Balance and Escape Artist plus some smattering of other skills. These fit well with the acrobatic charge and improved flanking to help boost my bonus to hit. Compared to most fighters I will have a good number of skill points. I will not be a rogue but that is really not my goal.
jstorrie 05-30-07, 05:46 PM	My tips? 1. go Human. there are many juicy feats for this build and you want as many as possible. 2. get Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. Fighter 4 > Swash 4 for pure melee power here. 3. keep your stat distribution, that's the one you want. 4. Power Attack with a Courtblade is a good alternative to TWF. if you swap to 16 Strength, PA with a Falchion is even possible. 5. the sleeper feats you might miss, but are very powerful here: Telling Blow, Power Critical (normally weak, but fits well into a low-level feat slot), Improved Buckler Defense, Staggering Strike. 6. prioritize Tumble, trapfinding, and mobility skills. pick up as many synergy bonuses are as convenient. The build that I have in play now is: Human 14 16 14 14 8 8 1 Rogue: Telling Blow, Power Attack 2 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse 3 Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade, Weapon Focus: Elven Courtblade 4 Rogue 5 Swashbuckler 6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw 7 Fighter: Power Critical* 8 Fighter 9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Elven Courtblade, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) 10 Swashbuckler 11 Swashbuckler 12 Swashbuckler: Improved Critical* 13 Swashbuckler 14 Swashbuckler 15 Swashbuckler: Slashing Flurry If you get access to keen, you should swap out Improved Critical for Staggering Strike. Improved Buckler Defense versus Power Critical will come down to which buckler enhancements you have access to and what your region is. If you're constantly fighting undead, you're going to want IBD. If you have no access to good shield enhancments by the APL12+ game, you may want to retrain to IBD and pick up a +2 or +3 mithril/darkwood buckler. IBD is more of a liability in the low levels, though, so if you're taking it at all retrain into it once the to-hit hit is worth the AC bonus of a well-enchanted buckler.
GenghisBob 05-30-07, 06:14 PM	Both builds lack will saves, nothing like full attacking your friends, even better when you get all the goodies and sneak attack on them. 4th level Rogue is critical which ever path you take for uncany doge. As a light fighter keeping your Dex to AC can help keep you alive in the first round. TWF is grand, but the amount of times you get full attack- Sneak attacks are rare, or you spend a round or two getting into position. Quick draw is cirtical so that you can make benfit glorious TWF sneak attacks when you start combat next to the bad guy and he is flat footed. - You cant draw a weapon as a free action as a 5' step. Nothing like being in TWF full attack and sneak attack range, but you cant cause you have to draw your weapons. (and yes sometimes you can go around with weapons in your hands all the time) Any of the builds will be to brittle to stand toe to toe (Except maybe the full Swash build) with a Full attacking BDF whilst getting into position. Combat Expertise helps jack the AC until you are in position. (OR UMD something like bark skin/ false life/mirror image in your standard action as your move action into Full attack position) Staggering strike helps you survive when you are in position and the BDF does not fall on your first FULL attack. Telling Blow is a good early feat so you can start putting out your sneak attack whilst getting into position on non Flat footed guys. If you can add in staggering strike, then there is a chance you can stop the BDFs full attack when you are most vulnerable. (This works well when you are Ful Expertise and defensive when you need a crit to hit anyway). It also allows you to delvier a sneak attack in a grapple + say staggering strike, it works when your swash mostly build is acrobatically charging in to position. The pounce feats are nice, but hard to fit in feat wise without some fighter levels. I would rather see Ch dumped then Wisdom, you can make up for the dumped Ch with a cloak, but you most likley will have a con item in the neck slot. Also the spell "Imbue other" requires a 9 in the ability score, so you need a 9 for a cleric to imbue with a few grave strikes, to make you useful versus undead) I think in the Rog mostly build, tacking enough Swash for insightful strike, the one that allows Int bonus + strength bonus on dmg is great. Even though you might be leveraging your DMG via Sneak Attack, levargaing + dmg per attack is also grand and helps. You also have a free head slot for a head band of interlect. +4 Per hit is another 20 dmg at APl 10 + on a hasted attack. - just an addition on JStorries build, the 4 fighter levels are grand as well to jack the weap spec + MWM + Insight full strike He is getting +2 +2 +2 +2 on each hit. My own PC went this route (put old school pre Swash pre Scoundrel Build) and the +2+2+2 pre item jacked bonus to dmg works well, especially when it is leveraged on 5 or more attacks around. regards GB
Lomiat 05-30-07, 06:23 PM	I think you'll want Rogue 4 for the Uncanny Dodge. It's nice that since your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak, you won't lose any Sneak dice for ending Rogue at an even level. I wouldn't recommend Staggering Strike unless you can Power Attack, and since you're looking to be a Two-Weapon fighter, I'm guessing you won't power attack. Maybe consider Combat Expertise or Goad or anything that provides you more than one dimension to your character. Since I know you've got some other characters that excel at doing their main thing, perhaps you'll want to make this guy more of a "bag of tricks" who's good at several things if not entirely top-notch at his main schtick. And if you do go with Combat Expertise, the Deadly Defense feat becomes better. Meanwhile, I agree that Rogue 10 is better in the long run, but I can understand your desire to make a Swashbuckler that gains more of an edge earlier in the build. Of course, you have time in your early levels to sort out that decision.
Synecdoche 05-30-07, 06:26 PM	Look at Deadly Defense. Combat Expertise is a prereq, but it adds another nice way of getting some damage dice in there.
Golorious 06-01-07, 05:42 PM	so how about this STR 14 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 8 or STR 14 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 8 All stat bumbs to Dex. 1) Rogue – TWF, Telling Blow, +1d6 SA 2) Swashbuckler – Weapon Finesse* 3) Swashbuckler – Quickdraw, Grace +1 4) Swashbuckler 5) Rogue 6) Rogue Daring Outlaw, +3d6 SA, Dodge +1 7) Fighter – ITWF 8) Fighter – combat expertise 9) Swashbuckler deadly defense, +4d6 SA 10) Rogue 11) Swashbuckler +5d6 SA 12) Swashbuckler – GTWF, Dodge +2 13) Swashbuckler +6d6 SA, Acrobatic Charge, Grace +2 14) Swashbuckler – Improved Flanking 15) Swashbuckler improved buckler defence or staggering strike +7d6 SA I understand that melee weapon mastery is an excellent feat but I would have to take out 2 feats and one Sneak attack and improved flanking. I would also loose out on keeping the skills maxed that I intend to keep at max. Though I'm still consdiering it I would likely then take out combat expertise and deadly defense for weapon focus and weapon specialization but I'm not sure what I would take out for melee weapon mastery, possibily GTWF.
Sieylianna 06-01-07, 06:01 PM	Why are you taking quickdraw at 3rd? With TWF you can draw two weapons as part of a move action. Ed
Hariman 06-01-07, 06:12 PM	Why are you taking quickdraw at 3rd? With TWF you can draw two weapons as part of a move action. Ed With quickdraw you can full attack without spending a round drawing your weapons. So when the enemy appears within a five foot step you can full attack in the first round of combat while he is still flat footed.
Golorious 06-01-07, 06:23 PM	Why are you taking quickdraw at 3rd? With TWF you can draw two weapons as part of a move action. Ed I didn't even realize you could pull two weapons, but you are right it is there on page 142 of the phb. Mostly I took it so I would not have to worry about the whole move action thing with two weapons. Granted I'm not sure how often it would come into play but it is handy when it does. I'm certainly open to removing it. That could make melee weapon mastery easier to get or I could take tactile trapsmith.
dkay807 06-01-07, 07:58 PM	There were some interesting discussions about a build I posted (and a slight variation) a while back. Here's the link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=816872 Ultimately, it seems the best combination is a Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swashbcukler 8 or something along those lines. Some people may choose Fighter 6 for an extra feat, while others may choose Rogue 4 for Uncanny Dodge... it boils down to personal preference. What is important is that you maintain a nearly full BAB, many sneak attack dice, and melee weapon mastery. Your will save will suffer a little, but other than that, it's extremely solid.
Mommy was an Orc 06-01-07, 08:17 PM	Why are you taking quickdraw at 3rd? With TWF you can draw two weapons as part of a move action. Ed Quickdraw is a very useful feat for a TWF'er who does several dice of sneak - when the encounter distance is between 15-35 feet, you can full attack on round 1 against sneakable opponents.
jstorrie 06-01-07, 09:26 PM	I've come around in favour of Rogue 4 - your AC is over half Dex and Dodge in this sort of build, so keeping those is pretty crucial. I think the way of building Daring Outlaw that I most prefer is Human 14 16 14 14 8 8 1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 2 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse 3 Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Courtblade), Weapon Focus (Courtblade) 4 Swashbuckler: Grace +1 5 Rogue: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6 6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw, Sneak Attack +3d6, Dodge +1 7 Fighter: Power Critical* 8 Fighter 9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery 10 Swashbuckler 11 Rogue Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack +4d6 12 Swashbuckler: Improved Critical (Courtblade) 13 Fighter 14 Fighter: Slashing Flurry 15 Swashbuckler: Staggering Strike, Sneak Attack +5d6 Power Critical's value in the build depends on your equipment access. If you have a great weapon for hitting criticals with (say, a +1 Sacred Keen Elven Courtblade) you might prefer Power Critical. If you don't have access to good shield modifiers, you might prefer to retrain once you can reasonably afford a +3 or +4 buckler, though note that penalties to hit translate through Power Attack into less damage per round. If your weapon is turning out to not be great for criticals you can retrain into Staggering Strike early on as well. And, of course, if you are able to buy keen that frees up the Improved Critical slot, so you can potentially have all three. Daring Outlaw is probably actually one of the least important parts of a Daring Outlaw build. It's just that it fits so comfortably into the feat progression of a trapfinding/tumbling dextrous fighter. The real power elements are Power Attack/Finesse on a courtblade and Weapon Spec/Mastery/Insightful Strike for large amounts of bonus damage; really this build is more about being a Fighter/Rogue with a courtblade, and Swashbuckler just tunes that up a little–the aim is to get 2d4+1.5 Str+Int+4 going on a 15-20 weapon, with high mobility and AC and good hit dice. With the focus on Dex and the Swashbuckler Dodge bonus and potentially a shield bonus from your buckler, your AC is decent enough to advertise as a tank despite wearing mithril chain shirts.
Sieylianna 06-02-07, 07:57 AM	Quickdraw is a very useful feat for a TWF'er who does several dice of sneak - when the encounter distance is between 15-35 feet, you can full attack on round 1 against sneakable opponents. You're talking about throwing weapons, right? Otherwise, if you move more than five feet, you're only going to get a single attack. The only times I can recall a combat starting at a range of 5 feet where the opponent is flat-footed, is when an NPC turned on the party. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 06-02-07, 09:44 AM	You're talking about throwing weapons, right? Otherwise, if you move more than five feet, you're only going to get a single attack. The only times I can recall a combat starting at a range of 5 feet where the opponent is flat-footed, is when an NPC turned on the party. Ed Yes. With GTWF and +6d6 of sneak attack, you whip a bunch of alchemicals on round 1 instead of closing on your opponent. 6 flasks of acid doing 7d6 damage = 42d6 of damage at 12th for one of the builds listed. Doesn't work on everyone, and some DMs won't let you do it, but there are other things to throw and when it does work, you've really softened the opponent up for the BDF.
jstorrie 06-02-07, 04:14 PM	Are alchemicals considered weaponlike for the purposes of Quick Draw? Even in a sneak-attack light version of Daring Outlaw (like the 6 Fighter variation) lobbing three or four tanglefoot bags is a heck of a move in any combat.
Eric Anondson 06-02-07, 05:23 PM	Are alchemicals considered weaponlike for the purposes of Quick Draw?Grenadelike weapons, sure, why not?
JamesMaissen 06-02-07, 07:23 PM	Are alchemicals considered weaponlike for the purposes of Quick Draw? Even in a sneak-attack light version of Daring Outlaw (like the 6 Fighter variation) lobbing three or four tanglefoot bags is a heck of a move in any combat. They seem more weapon-like than wands which are the listed example. After all it's grenade-like *weapons* that you attack with.. they just don't require proficiency for attack rolls with them. And carrying multiple tanglefoot bags, let alone the expense of throwing them all in one round more than mitigates whatever usefulness that you are imagining. -James
jstorrie 06-02-07, 07:47 PM	I don't think carrying them would be much trouble for a Daring Outlaw build. She starts with 14 Strength and wears mithril chain, she has a fair amount of margin before she'll hit encumbrance. The expense isn't much when tanglefoot bags can instantly defeat APL 6-10 encounters. You just don't throw them when they're not appropriate.
Timlagor 06-02-07, 11:04 PM	I'd definitely allow alchemicals to be Quickdrawn I would not allow them to deal sneak attack damage -ETV on this one.
Eric Anondson 06-02-07, 11:25 PM	I would not allow them to deal sneak attack damage -ETV on this one.The FAQ says otherwise. Latest version, page 23. Does a rogue apply sneak attack damage when throwing alchemist fire or casting a spell such as acid splash? Yes. The bonus damage from sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike applies to any attack that requires an attack roll, even touch attacks.
_metz_ 06-03-07, 12:29 AM	I'd definitely allow alchemicals to be Quickdrawn I would not allow them to deal sneak attack damage -ETV on this one. Definitely applies. Excellent way for rogues to do acid or fire damage in large amounts too.
jstorrie 06-03-07, 03:19 AM	Sneak attack only doesn't apply to the splash damage, since it requires no attack roll. So you could get SA on the primary target, but not all the guys in adjacent squares. And no SA unless you directly attack the main guy.
GenghisBob 06-03-07, 05:27 AM	My Rog Carries 15 Holy water (has grave stirke), 15 Acid and 15 Alchemical as well as the Tanglefoot bags. I have to check with the DM first before i bother with them in the game. SOme say one a round, some it takes a round to preapre (as in preapreing oil) others say sure, where are they to be pulled so quick? Others just say sure. Others say sure, and then every time i fall or get jumped on make me roll to see how many bottles crack open. Even some more have their eys pop out their head, before their ears implode... The effect of using Alchemicals on fire vulnerable critters with sneak attack is pricesless... Was able to romp accross the hanging glacier that way. Having grave strike and touch attacking Undead and sneaking them from a distance out of their level draining ways is even more pricesless. He also carries nets (Touch attacks to reduce the AC of high AC foes your BDF is having trouble Power attacking), Bolas (Ranged Triping), Ransuers (disarming + reach + MWM piercing stacks), Guisarmes (triping and reach) (most in his Quiver of IUZ) so he can quick draw and use weapons as the need arises. some times you dont want to get too close. Quick draw gets all that done. And you would really be surprised how many times where i was able to full attack and apply sneak attack with a flat footed apponent. It could be that they moved first - charged me, some one has cast grease, distract assialiant or acutally flankd them... I now can chow down on them with 7 - 35 D6 GB
_metz_ 06-03-07, 05:34 AM	I think there should be a rogue special ability to allow pure rogues to sneak attack undead. Unseen Seer is just too good... This is coming form someone who is really trying to play a straight rogue character, and is finding it rather hard to deal with the undead/constructs. Wish I had golem strike and grave strike.
Haro 06-03-07, 06:40 AM	I think there should be a rogue special ability to allow pure rogues to sneak attack undead. Unseen Seer is just too good... This is coming form someone who is really trying to play a straight rogue character, and is finding it rather hard to deal with the undead/constructs. Wish I had golem strike and grave strike. Jeepers creepers Metz, here is another thing I agree with you on! ;) I think that if you want to play a Swashbuckling Rogue, then go Rog 4/Swb 11. If you want to play a Roguish Swashbuckler, go Swb 3/Rog 12. Both have strong points (HP, BAB, luck reroll and AC vs skills, uncanny dodge and special abilities) but I think it is important not to mutt out. If you do, you'll miss the best parts of both classes, which are only gained at higher levels. That being said, I play with Genghis Bob's mutt all the time and he is effective and fun to play with, while I also have a rogue mutt. If given time over I would have gone Rog 4/Swb 12, despite the lack of spellcasting etc. Joe
_metz_ 06-03-07, 06:55 AM	Jeepers creepers Metz, here is another thing I agree with you on! ;) I think that if you want to play a Swashbuckling Rogue, then go Rog 4/Swb 11. If you want to play a Roguish Swashbuckler, go Swb 3/Rog 12. Both have strong points (HP, BAB, luck reroll and AC vs skills, uncanny dodge and special abilities) but I think it is important not to mutt out. If you do, you'll miss the best parts of both classes, which are only gained at higher levels. That being said, I play with Genghis Bob's mutt all the time and he is effective and fun to play with, while I also have a rogue mutt. If given time over I would have gone Rog 4/Swb 12, despite the lack of spellcasting etc. Joe I agree with you here (more shock and horror) However, Rogue 13/Swash 2 works better than Rogue12 Swash 3 imho. You trade a rogue special ability in for int to damage in a non static damage producing character that gets the same amount of sneak attack. Seems to make sense to me. (also if you do go rogue ten, you HAVE to take Savvy Rogue, and with another rogue ability the synergy is just too good...) My Character Sarian is 7 Rogue 1 Dread Pirate, and is going to take at least another 3 levels of rogue. Not 100% sure what to take with the rest of it, probably scarlet corsair and legendary captain. But the guy is a skill monkey trap finder who TWFs as well, so should do fine for damage producing on living things, and at lvl 12 he gets Savvy Rogue with crippling strike so will be doing strength damage on each flank against everything at least.
Southernskies 06-03-07, 07:20 AM	The FAQ says otherwise. Latest version, page 23. Does a rogue apply sneak attack damage when throwing alchemist fire or casting a spell such as acid splash? Yes. The bonus damage from sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike applies to any attack that requires an attack roll, even touch attacks. That has got to be the stupidest ruling the FAQ has ever made; and its made some huge ones over the years. Spells, easily a "yes"; but splash weapons? What is the rogue doing? Shoving it down the creatures throat?
Mommy was an Orc 06-03-07, 09:41 AM	That has got to be the stupidest ruling the FAQ has ever made; and its made some huge ones over the years. Spells, easily a "yes"; but splash weapons? What is the rogue doing? Shoving it down the creatures throat? How does a Rogue 15 manage to do 8d6 of sneak damage with a dart to someone wearing full plate without throwing it right into their eyes? Why are they not blind? How does one sneak attack with Acid Splash the spell and not a flask of acid? They're pretty much the same thing. But presumably, you're throwing acid where it would hurt the most. Near the eyes or something similar. Sneak attack damage often makes no sense whatsoever - but being perfectly realistic is not how D&D works.
_metz_ 06-03-07, 10:24 AM	That has got to be the stupidest ruling the FAQ has ever made; and its made some huge ones over the years. Spells, easily a "yes"; but splash weapons? What is the rogue doing? Shoving it down the creatures throat? How about hitting them in the unprotected bit, the eye, or any vulnerable spot the rogue would STAB THEM. Sneak attack represents the rogue's ability to identify and strike weak spots. Argueing it doesn't work on such things is just as stupid. Its an attack roll, and the rogue knows where to hit. Clearly you are one of the few minority who thinks rogues and sneak attack are too good. An utterly naive belief. (I play a Sneak attack character without Unseen Seer levels/caster levels, I KNOW ITS OVERRATED). Why can't a Rogue throw a flask of acid in the right spot when it can throw a dagger in the right spot?
JamesMaissen 06-03-07, 10:46 AM	I don't think carrying them would be much trouble for a Daring Outlaw build. She starts with 14 Strength and wears mithril chain, she has a fair amount of margin before she'll hit encumbrance. The expense isn't much when tanglefoot bags can instantly defeat APL 6-10 encounters. You just don't throw them when they're not appropriate. You'd think, but in practice it adds up very quickly. A 14 STR can carry 58lbs with a light load. A round of tanglefoot bags like you described is a quarter of your carrying capacity. That's an investment. And instantly defeating APL 6-10 encounters? You'll be carrying that 12lbs around for a long time waiting for that to occur.. perhaps longer than a character will be in those levels. Mind you they are great items, but they are still heavy and costly. -James
Hariman 06-03-07, 11:02 PM	I think there should be a rogue special ability to allow pure rogues to sneak attack undead. Unseen Seer is just too good... This is coming form someone who is really trying to play a straight rogue character, and is finding it rather hard to deal with the undead/constructs. Wish I had golem strike and grave strike. Complete Champion has a Rogue Alternate Class Ability that gives half sneak attack damage to undead. (Published before in another book.) But the trick is you need access to use it. Hariman PS: (To other posters.) Sneak attacking with a splash weapon makes sense to me. In Rule Terms: You make an attack roll to hit and it does damage, thus it is an attack that qualifies for sneak attack damage. In real life terms: (Which only apply so far in a GAME.) The acid or alchemist's fire hit in a vital spot. Like the throat, face, etc. And thus it does more damage due to the rogues ability to pick his shots. It's like aiming a snowball at an ear. You wouldn't think it would hurt that much, but it does.
Evanta 06-04-07, 03:14 AM	How does a Rogue 15 manage to do 8d6 of sneak damage with a dart to someone wearing full plate without throwing it right into their eyes? Why are they not blind? How does one sneak attack with Acid Splash the spell and not a flask of acid? They're pretty much the same thing. But presumably, you're throwing acid where it would hurt the most. Near the eyes or something similar. Sneak attack damage often makes no sense whatsoever - but being perfectly realistic is not how D&D works. Well... The only problem IMO is that the splash weapons are touch attacks.
GenghisBob 06-04-07, 03:20 AM	However, Rogue 13/Swash 2 works better than Rogue12 Swash 3 imho. You trade a rogue special ability in for int to damage in a non static damage producing character that gets the same amount of sneak attack. Seems to make sense to me. (also if you do go rogue ten, you HAVE to take Savvy Rogue, and with another rogue ability the synergy is just too good...) You really need to think hard about this. Trading in +2-6 points of DMG per attack (10-30 in a TWFER build) from levels 7 - 12 ... a big call. When you consdier it can be applied more times then sneak attack, it helps deal out consistint dmg. Esecially for something at 15th level, that probly is not going to make your life any easier, especially consdiering APL12 is the norm now, and APL14 is Rare and APL16 is once or twice a year. I feel consistint dmg from level 7 -14 far out weighs the "im going to be superlative at 15th".
_metz_ 06-04-07, 04:05 AM	You really need to think hard about this. Trading in +2-6 points of DMG per attack (10-30 in a TWFER build) from levels 7 - 12 ... a big call. When you consdier it can be applied more times then sneak attack, it helps deal out consistint dmg. Esecially for something at 15th level, that probly is not going to make your life any easier, especially consdiering APL12 is the norm now, and APL14 is Rare and APL16 is once or twice a year. I feel consistint dmg from level 7 -14 far out weighs the "im going to be superlative at 15th". The issue is if you can't sneak attack something, you can't apply the bonus. So it would be useful if it worked on stuff that sneak attack didn't. but it doesn't. Sure it might work when you aren't flanking etc, but that is kinda irrelevant as you should be tumbling to get the flank. I think the fact that it is precision damage is what you are missing. If it wasn't it would help offset the reliance on sneak, but it doesn't, as it ONLY works on things you CAN sneak attack, where as static damage it isn't that important. Don't forget one level of rogue earlier means Crippling Strike and Savvy Rogue at level 12 - instead of Crippling strike at 13 and Savvy Rogue only at 15. (need level 10 rogue BEFORE you can take the feat) Its not JUST a level 15 consideration if you look at when you get your first rogue ability - the whole point in going lots of rogue. Your arguement: 'the character can do a little extra damage when not flanking against things it should be flanking' Will make the character useless form APL 12 upwards. As again His crippling strike sucks till level 15. With 10 rogue at level 12 the character is much better at 12-15, (where rogues are in serious trouble), and up to that point can be a skillmonkey trap finder with still decent damage on living things.
paigeoliver 06-04-07, 05:57 AM	I am one of those people who are firmly on the side of Daring Outlaw being a 3 Rogue/12 Swashbuckler thing, preferably two weapon fighting with a pair of adamantine or starmetal weapons. With one undead bane weapon and one construct bane. That makes the character viable against most everything but plants, and the rest of the party should be able to handle plants without your help. The 3 rogue / 12 swash daring outlaw should have hit points right up there with the fighters and will only be lacking a single BAB, and will be able to keep up the trapfinding unless you dumped intelligence. Sure the character doesn't have a high will save, but most fighting characters don't and I think this huge fear of dominated or charmed brutes is overplayed. I see a fighter get mind controlled like once every 40 or 50 modules. Plus a daring outlaw isn't all that dangerous to his own party without someone to flank with him.
_metz_ 06-04-07, 06:31 AM	I am one of those people who are firmly on the side of Daring Outlaw being a 3 Rogue/12 Swashbuckler thing, preferably two weapon fighting with a pair of adamantine or starmetal weapons. With one undead bane weapon and one construct bane. That makes the character viable against most everything but plants, and the rest of the party should be able to handle plants without your help. The 3 rogue / 12 swash daring outlaw should have hit points right up there with the fighters and will only be lacking a single BAB, and will be able to keep up the trapfinding unless you dumped intelligence. Sure the character doesn't have a high will save, but most fighting characters don't and I think this huge fear of dominated or charmed brutes is overplayed. I see a fighter get mind controlled like once every 40 or 50 modules. Plus a daring outlaw isn't all that dangerous to his own party without someone to flank with him. Yeah, each build caters to a person's preference. I am just saying that the Rogue13 Swash 2 build is better than the Rogue 12 swash 3 build.
GenghisBob 06-04-07, 06:36 AM	The issue is if you can't sneak attack something, you can't apply the bonus. So it would be useful if it worked on stuff that sneak attack didn't. but it doesn't. Sure it might work when you aren't flanking etc, but that is kinda irrelevant as you should be tumbling to get the flank. I think the fact that it is precision damage is what you are missing. If it wasn't it would help offset the reliance on sneak, but it doesn't, as it ONLY works on things you CAN sneak attack, where as static damage it isn't that important. Don't forget one level of rogue earlier means Crippling Strike and Savvy Rogue at level 12 - instead of Crippling strike at 13 and Savvy Rogue only at 15. (need level 10 rogue BEFORE you can take the feat) Its not JUST a level 15 consideration if you look at when you get your first rogue ability - the whole point in going lots of rogue. Your arguement: 'the character can do a little extra damage when not flanking against things it should be flanking' Will make the character useless form APL 12 upwards. As again His crippling strike sucks till level 15. With 10 rogue at level 12 the character is much better at 12-15, (where rogues are in serious trouble), and up to that point can be a skillmonkey trap finder with still decent damage on living things. Im not missing the point, i know where it can be used, and can't. After Playing a rogue up to APL 16 games, i still prefer the insightful strike. If i thought crippling strike was worth taking, i might agree with you, but i dont. and Rogues are in less trouble from APL 12 onwards. APL 6-8 is their awakward spot.
_metz_ 06-04-07, 06:41 AM	Im not missing the point, i know where it can be used, and can't. After Playing a rogue up to APL 16 games, i still prefer the insightful strike. If i thought crippling strike was worth taking, i might agree with you, but i dont. and Rogues are in less trouble from APL 12 onwards. APL 6-8 is their awakward spot. Well I think we each have our own opinions lol it really boils down to what mods people play and how they play their character.
GenghisBob 06-04-07, 06:49 AM	Well I think we each have our own opinions lol it really boils down to what mods people play and how they play their character. POssibly, but now having met 12 other mostly rog PCs in APL14 games, not one of them acutally thought crippling stike was worth considering in a build. Stagering stirke though......is actually useful. And it is quiet likely i Have played all the mods you have plus a whole lot more from other regions then those in australia.
_metz_ 06-04-07, 06:51 AM	POssibly, but now having met 12 other mostly rog PCs in APL14 games, not one of them acutally thought crippling stike was worth considering in a build. Stagering stirke though......is actually useful. And it is quiet likely i Have played all the mods you have plus a whole lot more from other regions then those in australia. Well then you aren't arguing 2 Swash 12 Rogue. You should be arguing 3 Rogue 12 swash really.
GenghisBob 06-04-07, 06:57 AM	Well then you aren't arguing 2 Swash 12 Rogue. You should be arguing 3 Rogue 12 swash really. No I advocate Minimum 4 rogue in what ever the rest of your build is. But why would i argue for 3R/12 swash? My thoughts tend towards 3 Swash/RogX/ option + Whaterver Max 4