Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ornsjach 10-07-07, 08:19 AM	OK. lately I have been playing warcraft 3 and the death knight hero class looked kinda do-able and kinda fun when combined with my new fighters personality"cold, sadistic, cruel, and totally nuts especially to lesser undead or at lest those lesser to her (she thinks she is a daywalker noble) and acts like it". anyway heres what i have so far PS its kinda a mess and i don't have much but time is short I got to Saturday to get this finalized LN human fighter/wizard/spellsword and perhaps some lvls in Eldritch Knight id hate to lose to much BAB 15 str 10dex 15con 14int 10 wis 10 cha 1 point in str and con boost items for int and dex the feat trees i want for her are the power attack, power charge,as much weapon focus feat as possible,craft magical arms and armor, craft wondrous item spells mostly booster/necromancy(especially vampilic touch) and any spells that are good for channeling into my long sword as long as they don't have the evil descriptor also this is my first Gish so any battle tips would be appreciated
RtrnofdMax 10-07-07, 01:16 PM	Why not drop WIS and CHA to 8 and put those points into INT or into evening out your STR and CON? Your will saves will be fine and I don't imagine you're going to need any CHA as a death knight.
ornsjach 10-07-07, 01:40 PM	I suppose your right the lack of cha could explain why she is so quiet and cold almost emotionless. AND it will push my spell DCs up a good bit. the reason for the cha and Wis was 2 fold (1) she's pretty (think noble woman with high cheek bones and a small up turn nose like Anju from chibi vampire) (2) most of the noble meta orgs hanve the no flaw catch but now that i look at them there all for "goody-goodies" somthing would make i think my char say "I think going to be sick" ill get a noble title some other way
jstorrie 10-07-07, 04:18 PM	10 Dex is not an option; you can't wear very heavy armor, so you need the AC (and gishes very much need high Init and whatever Reflex they can get, as well.) 8 Wis doesn't mean you're stupid; it could mean you just don't care enough to pay attention to many things. 8 Cha could mean that you don't deal well with people. I'm not sure why a first-level Fighter would think he was a daywalker noble, of course, but you could always just do a necromancer who begins to look more and more down on people as he progresses in power. And hey, rather than retiring at CL16, play the last mod you can at 15 and then craft yourself a phylactery and become a lich (and get removed from the campaign.) I mean, if you can find AR access to a lich's phylactery... Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Necromancer: Scribe Scroll, Dodge, Practiced Spellcaster (Necromancer) 2 Necromancer 3 Necromancer: Craft Wondrous Item 4 Fighter: Mobility 5 Necromancer 6 Necromancer: Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Retributive Spell 7 Necromancer 8 Spellsword 9 Spellsword: Split Ray 10 Spellsword: Elusive Target 11 Spellsword 12 Spellsword: Craft Magic Arms & Armor 13 Eldritch Knight 14 Eldritch Knight 15 Eldritch Knight: Quicken Spell The best spell to channel into your weapon is Split Ray Enervation (2d4 negative levels=rad.) If you can get metamagic rods, even better. Before you get Ignore ASF (and suit up in a shield and mithril chain) you will probably want to carry a reach weapon. Starting with Fighter 1 would get you a couple more hit points, but it screws your feat progression up a bit (preventing CWI at 3, which is pretty critical.) In the low levels, don't try to gish it up too much, just abuse Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement like every other low-level wizard does. Your power will start to kick in around level 4-6 and you'll be doing well by APL8, but in the early levels, focus on tanglefoot bagging, netting, buffing and no-save spells. And don't forget to always be rocking False Life and something good in your Retributive slot (Ray of Enfeeblement, Blindness, Bestow Curse, Split Enervation, etc.) Once you get Split Ray, of course, use rays liberally. Power Attack is a trap and I'd avoid it, especially since you're one-hand plus shielding it. Instead, use swift spells to enhance your attacks.
ornsjach 10-07-07, 04:34 PM	hmm your right about the dex seeing ill be wearing twilight mithral full plate armor but she's more of a brutal front line fighter with magic back up as for retirement she would perfer getting bit by some cute vampire princess and why cuse she use to be a vampire noble for 200 years before she was killed and rencarnated into a human child
jstorrie 10-07-07, 05:15 PM	Where are you going to get access to the Twilight enhancement? It's not common and I wouldn't count on it.
ornsjach 10-07-07, 05:41 PM	true but i still got some time and can request special mod, still left for this year and next year.. but if i can't ill just make do with what i can get (thank you mithral breastplate access over abundance at apl4-8) also most necro spells are banded in keoland Bestow Curse, Ray of Weakness, any evil or debilitating spell no power attack, cleave, or great cleave, check! what about getting a living shield and weapon focus long sword, also powerful charge and greater powerful charge maybe get weapon proficiency elven thinblade in the long run i would guess she would see it as a more "lady like" weapon maybe craft wand for all those boost spells just a thought maybe drop the fighter lvls for swash seeing my int "nice synergy"and weapon specialization longsword instead focusing on bringing my bag of tricks up a bit
jstorrie 10-07-07, 09:41 PM	You don't have enough feats to do all of that. The spells being illegal in Keoland is only a problem if you get caught... If you want to go less spellcasty and more straight melee, Cleric or Favoured Soul of an apporpriately-themed deity works. Or you can do something like Fighter 2 / Hexblade 2 (Dark Companion ACF) / Sorceror 2 / Ruathar 3 / Spellsword 6 with Arcane Strike.
ornsjach 10-07-07, 10:31 PM	The spells being illegal in Keoland is only a problem if you get caught.... id so get caught theres always some pally or good doing cleric in our groups that would turn me in or id use create lesser undead to create trap springing lackeys for me. also i am so sick of waiting for a GHR mod the next 1 isn't till march so no Hexblade (Dark Companion ACF) still heres what i have so far LN human female swash 3/wiz 3/Spellsword 9 or 7 if i can leap through the flaming loops it takes to get the Ruathar PrC Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 first lvl feats: weapon proficiency elven thinblade unless u think a feat for the D8 vs a D6 isn't worth it and armor proficiency medium armor lvl3 armor proficiency heavy or Practiced Spellcaster if i go rapier lvl6 CWI lvl8 Craft Magic Arms & Armor or Practiced Spellcaster(again) ill get the other next lvl lvl9 see above lvl12 undecided 15 undecided
KarmaInferno 10-08-07, 10:56 AM	The spells being illegal in Keoland is only a problem if you get caught... Actually, from the description the character might have a problem just walking around. Keoland tends to be very uncomfortable for those who appear even slightly evil or strange. A 'death knight' looking character will probably face people trying to arrest her or kill her constantly. Heaven forbid that it becomes public knowledge that she's a necromancer. -karma
ornsjach 10-08-07, 11:17 AM	hence alter self and trying to fit in as a eccentric noble remembering a certaint blood-lustful noble i met once in a mod roll knowledge nobility checks ppl
Wraith235 10-08-07, 07:17 PM	bad news about special missions .... I got told 3 weeks ago at MountainCon that Special missions are Done ... no more ... the Triad and writers have enuf on their plate just finishing the current storylines that they wont be offering Specials anymore
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-07, 08:30 PM	I like the following Gish build: Human Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Still Spell 2: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll 3: Wizard 2: Metamagic School Focus(?) 4: Wizard 3: Int 17 5: Wizard 4 6: Wizard 5: CWI, Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion) 7: Wizard 6 8: Spellsword 1: Int 18 9: Loremaster 1: Arcane Strike, Attack Secret(+1 to hit) 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Quicken Spell 12: Loremaster 4: Int 19: ? 13: Divine Oracle 1 14: Divine Oracle 2 15: Divine Oracle 3 If you get access, substitute in Ruathar and/or Sacred Exorcist. Goal is to maintain full caster level - 1. You use Still Spell and Metamagic School Focus to cast spells in Heavy Plate without spell failure. If you're playing at APL and the party is missing a primary arcanist, you pull out your Mithril Chain Shirt at 8th+ and take on the job if you have to.
Hariman 10-08-07, 11:12 PM	I like the following Gish build: Human Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Still Spell 2: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll 3: Wizard 2: Metamagic School Focus(?) 4: Wizard 3: Int 17 5: Wizard 4 6: Wizard 5: CWI, Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion) 7: Wizard 6 8: Spellsword 1: Int 18 9: Loremaster 1: Arcane Strike, Attack Secret(+1 to hit) 10: Loremaster 2 11: Loremaster 3: Quicken Spell 12: Loremaster 4: Int 19: ? 13: Divine Oracle 1 14: Divine Oracle 2 15: Divine Oracle 3 If you get access, substitute in Ruathar and/or Sacred Exorcist. Goal is to maintain full caster level - 1. You use Still Spell and Metamagic School Focus to cast spells in Heavy Plate without spell failure. If you're playing at APL and the party is missing a primary arcanist, you pull out your Mithril Chain Shirt at 8th+ and take on the job if you have to. The limit here is that you only get 3 spells Stilled at +0 from Metamagic School Focus. You could use hour duration buffs like False Life before donning the armor, but you're still limited to 3 a day for Metamagic School Focus. Actually, from the description the character might have a problem just walking around. Keoland tends to be very uncomfortable for those who appear even slightly evil or strange. A 'death knight' looking character will probably face people trying to arrest her or kill her constantly. Heaven forbid that it becomes public knowledge that she's a necromancer. -karma If it gets out that you're a necromancer in Keoland, you either run or get shafted. Better yet, have two prepared spells lists. One for inside of Keoland, where you shouldn't use too many necromancy spells. And a second for when you CAN use all those lovely necromancy spells.
ornsjach 10-08-07, 11:38 PM	to Mommy was an orc good gish but not the role for this one thanks for the effort though Hariman advice about spell list noted and will be implmented wrath235 ill just heve to get lucky or rely on my class features and mithril breastplate next should i spend the feat to move from a 1d6 weapon to a 1d8weapon and what feats should i use to fill in at lvls 12 and 15 on my build below LN human female swash 3/wiz 3/Spellsword 9 or 7 if i can leap through the flaming loops it takes to get the Ruathar PrC Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 first lvl feats: weapon proficiency elven thinblade unless u think a feat for the D8 vs a D6 isn't worth it and armor proficiency medium armor lvl3 armor proficiency heavy or Practiced Spellcaster if i go rapier lvl6 CWI lvl8 Craft Magic Arms & Armor or Practiced Spellcaster(again) ill get the other next lvl lvl9 see above lvl12 undecided 15 undecided
_metz_ 10-09-07, 12:29 AM	hence alter self and trying to fit in as a eccentric noble remembering a certaint blood-lustful noble i met once in a mod roll knowledge nobility checks ppl Alter self is closed.
Mommy was an Orc 10-09-07, 12:30 AM	The limit here is that you only get 3 spells Stilled at +0 from Metamagic School Focus. You could use hour duration buffs like False Life before donning the armor, but you're still limited to 3 a day for Metamagic School Focus. It isn't a real problem. You cast one big buff spell per combat, cast as many hour per level buffs as you can prior to combat, then rely on a mix of no somatic component spells and spells you actually take Stilled for +1 to fill in the gaps. At 6th level, you start off with Haste as an example, then cast either Critical Strike or Blades of Flame(no S). If the badguy looks really dangerous, then you cast Displacement(no S component) for defensive values. It might seem expensive to have to Still for +1 so many other spells, but in reality, everyone else is at least 1 caster level behind you, maybe 2 - you have just as many stilled spells as they have regular spells - and you can use a Hide Shield with your Heavy Fullplate and not worry about it.
Mommy was an Orc 10-09-07, 12:31 AM	LN human female swash 3/wiz 3/Spellsword 9 or 7 if i can leap through the flaming loops it takes to get the Ruathar PrC You do realize that Swashbuckler's Int to damage doesn't work with Medium armor...
Evanta 10-09-07, 01:22 AM	why not just play cleric / fighter... u'll probably be able to 'deathknight' with inflict and buffs better.
Wraith235 10-09-07, 03:55 AM	You do realize that Swashbuckler's Int to damage doesn't work with Medium armor... Mithril BP = Light Armor
Mommy was an Orc 10-09-07, 06:43 PM	Mithril BP = Light Armor Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2 doesn't need to buy Heavy Armor. Gets 2 feats. Is the extra damage provided by Swashbuckler and 4 skill points worth 4 feats?
jstorrie 10-09-07, 09:40 PM	(No, it isn't!) Fighter 4 easily trumps Swash 3 in terms of damage. If you're already going to give up caster levels for a base class, you might as well pick up Weapon Focus/Specialization/Mastery and free Armor Proficiency.
ornsjach 10-09-07, 10:16 PM	ok so what feats should i fill those slots with? hopefully they will be worth the +5 damage id get from my int (headband of int +6) also do ya think getting a D8 weapn vs a D6 weapon is worth a feat
KarmaInferno 10-09-07, 11:29 PM	Well, normally anything that adds only a few points of damage to an attack isn't worth a feat, unless you have a ton of extra feat slots to play with. 5 points of damage might sound like a lot, but it's really only going to make a difference in the beginning levels. Then again, with the campaign closing, it's unlikely you'll get very far into the mid or high levels, so you might want to go ahead and take that feat. Priorities change when you don't have an endgame to worry about. d6 vs d8 is only a point of average damage in difference, though, and that isn't really worth a feat at any level. -karma
ornsjach 10-09-07, 11:35 PM	rapier it is then hmmm any good ideas for feat choices
ornsjach 10-10-07, 02:17 PM	ok build redux LN human female fighter 2/ ranger2/wiz 3/Spellsword 8 or 7 if i can leap through the flaming loops it takes to get the Ruathar PrC Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 first lvl feats: dodge mobility Practiced Spellcaster lvl3 weapon focus lvl4 spring attack lvl6 CWI lvl8 Craft Magic Arms & Armor lvl9 undecided lvl12 undecided lvl15 undecided note i probably will get at lest to lvl 14 seeing i play 2 games per weak
Hariman 10-10-07, 09:03 PM	ok so what feats should i fill those slots with? hopefully they will be worth the +5 damage id get from my int (headband of int +6) also do ya think getting a D8 weapn vs a D6 weapon is worth a feat Taking 4 levels of fighter gets you the ability to take Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization AND Weapon Mastery. That's a +3 to attack and +4 to damage. To all attacks with that weapon. And a +2/+2 to all other weapons of the appropriate damage type. That's significantly better than the bonus to damage from Swashbuckler 3. The +3 to attack gains far more for Power Attackers (potentially +6 damage with a two handed weapon.) than the Damage Bonus from Swashbuckler. And ultimately, D6 vs D8 is insignificant after APLs 2 to 4. Critical Range and Critical Multiplier are much more important. You can either go for more critical hits, or more spectacular critical hits. Falchions are the best weapons for a large crit range. 15 to 20 (after Keen) is pretty damn good. Just ask the characters who take 2 or three in an encounter from falchion and scimitar wielding enemies. Scythes and other x4 weapons are the best for spectacular single hits. Just ask my sorcerer and the 90 damage scythe critical he took. Also, if you choose a reach weapon, then always wear a spiked gauntlet, so that you have a weapon when you can't (or don't want to) five foot step to attack with your polearm. Also, you could take Quickdraw. At higher levels you can Quickdraw your weapon/weapons and get a full attack off a round earlier. You can also Quickdraw weapons in the Surprise Round instead of just drawing a weapon. Combat Reflexes might be useful, but it'll be best if you take a reach weapon.
ornsjach 10-11-07, 02:49 PM	that advice is realy good. ill juggle a few feats and take out the spring attack progression. then take weapon focus longsword when i take lvl 1 fighter hmm may have to take my wizard lvls first if so lvl 1 practiced spellcaster, sudden extend lvl3 CWI lvl4 weapon focus lvl5 unknown lvl6 CMR&A lvl7 wepon specialaztion lvl9 energy subsitution (Cold) + lord of the uttercold lvl12 practiced spell caster lvl15 melee wepon mastery my equipment will be longsword Keen, frost, ghost touch, icy burst mithril breastplate Glamered (nobleish black lolita style dress) cold resistance Mithril light sheild animated need a good fighter feat to fill in the slot at lvl5
_metz_ 10-15-07, 08:16 AM	ok build redux LN human female fighter 2/ ranger2/wiz 3/Spellsword 8 or 7 if i can leap through the flaming loops it takes to get the Ruathar PrC Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 first lvl feats: dodge mobility Practiced Spellcaster lvl3 weapon focus lvl4 spring attack lvl6 CWI lvl8 Craft Magic Arms & Armor lvl9 undecided lvl12 undecided lvl15 undecided note i probably will get at lest to lvl 14 seeing i play 2 games per weak I much prefer this build: Human: (You want to craft a lot of Stat boosters btw) Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 15 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 As for level progression, I would lean towards: Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight7 1 Fighter1: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Power Attack 2 Wizard1: Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard2: Practiced Spellcaster (for Caster level for crafting!) 4 Wizard3: 5 Wizard4: 6 Wizard5: CWI, Retributive Spell 7 Wizard6: (+1 BAB +1 all saves) 8 Spellsword1: (Now to get a Mithral Chain Shirt) 9 Eldritch Knight1: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 Eldritch Knight2: 11 Eldritch Knight3: 12 Eldritch Knight4: Smiting Spell 13 Eldritch Knight5: 14 Eldritch Knight6: 15 Eldritch Knight7: Empower Spell You end up a 13th level wizard with +12 BAB. Its not bad. Use a Mithral chain Shirt with a crafted +6 gloves of Dex to get armour as good as full plate, put your stat boosts into Int and make a Periapt of Health and a Belt of giants Strength. Don't worry about craft magic arms and armour, its the stat boosters you need. All you need on your armour is probably moderate fortification and maybe death ward... (Glamored doesn't count as a bonus fortunately) And as for Melee weapon Mastery, Its good, but stuff like caster levels and arcane strike are probably more important. You know whats a really good Trick? When the bad guy hits you and cops an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement... Automatically... (Seen a mate drop an enemy fighter 16 str when he was hit using this trick, its not bad)
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 02:09 PM	[COLOR="Black"]I much prefer this build: Human: (You want to craft a lot of Stat boosters btw) Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 15 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 I disagree - at this stage of the campaign I'd start with all even stats, levels 1-3 + 8-11 are likely to be a bigger part of your career than 4-7+12-15. I think the extra starting strength is worth more than the odd Int score. 1 Fighter1: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Power Attack 2 Wizard1: Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard2: Practiced Spellcaster (for Caster level for crafting!) 4 Wizard3: 5 Wizard4: 6 Wizard5: CWI, Retributive Spell 7 Wizard6: (+1 BAB +1 all saves) 8 Spellsword1: (Now to get a Mithral Chain Shirt) 9 Eldritch Knight1: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 Eldritch Knight2: 11 Eldritch Knight3: 12 Eldritch Knight4: Smiting Spell 13 Eldritch Knight5: 14 Eldritch Knight6: 15 Eldritch Knight7: Empower Spell Sure, this is the standard max-caster-levels gish build, except for the feats (although I think Unseen Seer builds are actually better now). I'd skip Weapon Focus (Greatsword) unless you're working toward Melee Weapon Mastery, or at least retrain it later: metamagics and / or crafting feats will serve you better (you don't have Quicken in there, which defeats a large part of the purpose of keeping lots of caster levels). You end up a 13th level wizard with +12 BAB. Its not bad. Use a Mithral chain Shirt with a crafted +6 gloves of Dex to get armour as good as full plate, put your stat boosts into Int and make a Periapt of Health and a Belt of giants Strength. Don't worry about craft magic arms and armour, its the stat boosters you need. Well, both would be nice, especially now crafting doesn't conflict with play opportunities ;) And really, gauging builds by their L15 endpoint doesn't seem very practical anymore ;) This is a fine build, because it loses so few caster levels, but it's very much a "wizard who fights" rather than a "tank with spells", especially at the lower levels since the BAB loss is all frontloaded. That may or may not be what the OP wants.
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:15 AM	I disagree - at this stage of the campaign I'd start with all even stats, levels 1-3 + 8-11 are likely to be a bigger part of your career than 4-7+12-15. I think the extra starting strength is worth more than the odd Int score. Sure, this is the standard max-caster-levels gish build, except for the feats (although I think Unseen Seer builds are actually better now). I'd skip Weapon Focus (Greatsword) unless you're working toward Melee Weapon Mastery, or at least retrain it later: metamagics and / or crafting feats will serve you better (you don't have Quicken in there, which defeats a large part of the purpose of keeping lots of caster levels). Well, both would be nice, especially now crafting doesn't conflict with play opportunities ;) And really, gauging builds by their L15 endpoint doesn't seem very practical anymore ;) This is a fine build, because it loses so few caster levels, but it's very much a "wizard who fights" rather than a "tank with spells", especially at the lower levels since the BAB loss is all frontloaded. That may or may not be what the OP wants. All very good points. The original had quicken in there, I was more catering to the first level of fighter for the OP. If you started with Wizard, you could take Practiced spell caster at first level, and fighter at 2nd (than just pick up power attack) Which will allow the taking of Quicken at some point. I am a big fan of smiting AND retributive spell as well, (which couples well with the Empower) As for Unseen Seer, doesn't seem to suit the OP's views. Though I should add this build may be too much like a wizard at early levels for the OP though. However I would still suggest Eldritch Knight over Spellword, as its definitely the way to go for BAB AND caster levels... IF the OP just wants to use Full plate, MwaO's Metamagic school focus and Still spell could work very nicely. Finally: Smiting Spell, Retributive Spell, and Arcane Strike are all REALLY good choices for a Fighter Mage... These feats cut down on other choices though...
Wraith235 10-22-07, 04:51 PM	Since your going with a Gish something you might consider for lower levels is a Thistledown suit for a mithril chain shirt .... it ends up giving you a 5% ASF .... depending on the region your in there are Meta Orgs that give you access
KarmaInferno 10-23-07, 01:13 PM	A 'death knight' looking character will probably face people trying to arrest her or kill her constantly. I would like to amend this with an exception: All the above is true unless you're a dwarf. For some reason everywhere I go in Greyhawk, if a dwarf is wearing bloody spikes all over and death symbols, carrying a billion weapons and foaming spittle around the mouth, he's not evil, he's just considered to be just "cultural". :D -karma