Debuffer Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Debuffer Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Banor
07-15-07, 09:09 AM So I'm mostly looking for some comments on the build i came up with. Its mostly based on the C'thulu mythos' character of Abdulah al-Alzred. He is a mad man, firmly beliving that he has been experimenting visions from the future where Tharizdun has returned and is raining destruction on Oerth. By leaving his studies, he tries to stop the inevitable (to him :)). I want him to be a necromancer because i feel it fit more the personality of the character (do what it must be done to stop evil) even though he sees hiself as a good person, he will be Chaotic Neutral.

So here is the build.

Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Transmutation and Abjuration)
Str 8 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15

1.Wizard 1 : Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater spell focus (Necromancy),
2.Wizard 2 :
3.Wizard 3 : CWI
4.Wizard 4 : Stat Boost Charisma
5.Wizard 5 : Fearsome Necromancy
6.Wizard 6 : Heighten Spell
7.Nightmare Spinner 1 : Bonus spells (illusion)
8.NS 2 : Stat Boost INT
9.NS 3 : Chaining Spell
10.NS 4
11.NS 5
12.Fatespinner 1 : Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Stat Boost INT
13.FS 2
14.FS 3
15.FS 4 (Wondering between Arcane Mastery and Spell Focus illusion)

In combat my main concern is save or be in trouble spell (if not outright killed) even tho i can toss up good rays and at higher level even chain them. I'm kinda of annoyed to start with 16 INT (would prefer a 18) but i need a good Charisma to make my Nightmare spinner abilities worth it. I fear that both my Necromancer and Nightmare Spinner DC will be too low but well i can't have everything. That is the main reason why i took Heighten spell

I'm only loosing a caster level but its a fair trade to what i get (additional illusion spell as an illusionist + fear abilities). I'll be also very, very fragile lacking of Abjuration/Transmutation protection but fortunatly I'll be able to get a Rod of Empower, lesser for some False Life action

Feel free to comment :)
Dr.Cornelius
07-15-07, 04:02 PM A couple of things to think about:

1) I am not familiar with Nightmare Spinner, but if it is Charisma based why not go Sorcerer -> Nightmare Spinner and save the stat points?

2) Prohibiting Abjuration looses Dispel Magic which is a very important spell. Yes, the cleric can also take Dispel Magic but when you need it, you really need it.

3) Transmutation is a really strong school - think twice about prohibiting it. You lose a lot of very useful spells like Enlarge Person, Fly, Haste and Slow.

4) Consider prohibiting Enchantment and either Illusion or Evocation. Enchantment is mostly save-or-be-hosed effects that can be replicated with other schools. Illusion loses Invisibility, Evocation drops direct damage.

5) What Spells are you planning on taking? Which of those spells have a saving throw and are also Necromancy? The list is something like

1: Cause Fear
2: Blindness
3: Ray of Exhaustion
4: Bestow Curse
5: Magic Jar

Necromancy also has strong no-save spells:

1: Ray of Enfeeblement
2: False Life
3: Vampiric Touch
4: Enervation

Another way to go would be Empower and Metamagic School Focus. Empowering the four spells above for a +1 level bump 3/day is not bad. This trick also works with Heighten Spell.

Fearsome Necromancy is not a strong Feat.

The biggest problem Necromancers face is dealing with creatures immune to their effects. Have some Buff & Utility spells available available for this case.
Genghis Cohen
07-15-07, 04:32 PM ...Prohibited School : Transmutation and Abjuration...I'd think twice about that. Those are two of the strongest schools in the game. Many people, myself included, believe that there are three schools that should never be prohibited; Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation.

Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are Abjuration spells.
They are at the top of the debuffing food chain.

Slow, a Transmutation spell, is one of the best debuffing spells out there.1) I am not familiar with Nightmare Spinner, but if it is Charisma based why not go Sorcerer -> Nightmare Spinner and save the stat points?QFT
magebeast
07-15-07, 07:36 PM Trans as a prohibited school is also problematic because you can't craft stat boosters at that point as you lose access to the relevant spells.
Banor
07-15-07, 08:10 PM I'll think twice about the prohibited school, but i really dont want to go sorcerer, played one in an home game and seriously i came to hate my spell list. I might drop Evocation and use the Shadow evocation line of spell with my extra illusions spells to make up for the loss so I can pick up transmutation back (good call on the stat boosters,i totally forgot :)). Dropping illusion is out of question and enchantement seem like perfect to debuff target.

About Fearsome Necromancy, as a Nightmare spinner i inflict non lethal damage every time i apply a fear effect on somebody so i want to maximize that. For spells, Ghoul Touch can be devastating a low levels, as well as Scare. On stuff that be immune, i'll keep a scroll or two of command undead/halt undead/etc... close.

As for Empower, should i get it as a replacement for Chaining ? Chaining is damn nice but its very expensive and with Metamagic school focus 3/d Empower is almost free for great effect... Still wondering :)
Dr.Cornelius
07-15-07, 11:44 PM I hear you about Sorcerers - it is all about the spell list. I ran into a quote on the boards:

Wizards have to plan their spells a day in advance, Sorcerers have to plan a year in advance.

Fortunately you can correct most character design mistakes with retraining.

If you are going the touch spell route, think about going with more than 8 Strength - touch attacks are easy, but not that easy. Also consider adding Spectral Hand, Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp to the lineup.

This means you should forbid Enchantment and Illusion. Enchantment has some debuffs, but they are no better than Necro/Conjuration debuffs of the same level. The big downside to prohibiting Illusion is losing Invisibility, but you can't have everything.

Chain Spell is nice, but you won't find a better bang for your buck than Empower Spell. Empower also works with Necro most of the way up the spell levels:

1st Ray of Enfeeblement -> 2nd False Life -> 3rd Vampiric Touch -> 4th Enervation

And be sure to have a few spells or scrolls that will help the party when the BBEG is totally immune to your spells - for example Grease is pretty good against most constructs.
Banor
07-16-07, 09:34 AM I hear you about Sorcerers - it is all about the spell list. I ran into a quote on the boards:

Wizards have to plan their spells a day in advance, Sorcerers have to plan a year in advance.

Fortunately you can correct most character design mistakes with retraining.

If you are going the touch spell route, think about going with more than 8 Strength - touch attacks are easy, but not that easy. Also consider adding Spectral Hand, Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp to the lineup.

This means you should forbid Enchantment and Illusion. Enchantment has some debuffs, but they are no better than Necro/Conjuration debuffs of the same level. The big downside to prohibiting Illusion is losing Invisibility, but you can't have everything.

Chain Spell is nice, but you won't find a better bang for your buck than Empower Spell. Empower also works with Necro most of the way up the spell levels:

1st Ray of Enfeeblement -> 2nd False Life -> 3rd Vampiric Touch -> 4th Enervation

And be sure to have a few spells or scrolls that will help the party when the BBEG is totally immune to your spells - for example Grease is pretty good against most constructs.

Dropping illusion would make me drop Nightmare Spinner class, so its no go. Nightmare spinner is illusion and fear focused and it gives me extra Illusion spell slots like an illusionist (in addition to being a Necromancer).

My big question is : Is a Wizard without Evocation can be viable ? Because if yes i can rely on Shadow Evocation to mimic Evocation spell and that would free a space for Transmutation (gotta get these stats booster !). Yes that still mean no dispel magic but its something I'm ready to pay (even tho it's damn annoying :)) I kinda like Enchantement and I'm not sure if dropping it only for Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic is really worth it. Feeblemind, Crushing Despair, Mind Fog etc... all make my Necromancy/Illusion spell terribly effective (as well as Nightmare Spinner class features)

For spells, of course spectral hand gonna be part of my spell book asap :) I was under the impression that the hand had weapon finesse but it seem i was wrong, I'm not too sure if i want to sacrifice AC and Ranged to hit, not too sure what i should do (Reach spell maybe?). As for stuff when the BBEG will be highly resistant to my spells (construction or cleric with stupid high wisdom) what spell should i go for ? Grease is a good call but is there anything else ?

New plan look like this

Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Evocation and Abjuration)
Str 8 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15

1.Wizard 1 : Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater spell focus (Necromancy),
2.Wizard 2 :
3.Wizard 3 : CWI
4.Wizard 4 : Stat Boost Charisma
5.Wizard 5 : Fearsome Necromancy
6.Wizard 6 : Empower
7.Nightmare Spinner 1 : Bonus spells (illusion)
8.NS 2 : Stat Boost INT
9.NS 3 : Highten Spell
10.NS 4
11.NS 5
12.Fatespinner 1 : Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Stat Boost INT
13.FS 2
14.FS 3
15.FS 4 (Either Chaining or Reach)
Genghis Cohen
07-16-07, 01:19 PM New plan look like this

Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Evocation and Abjuration)Without Abjuration, you're really not a debuffer wizard. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are really that good, and Abjuration has a lot of other good spells as well. You might want to consider becoming a Diviner and prohibit Evocation, or be a generalist wizard.
UMiskatonic
07-16-07, 03:04 PM You can totally be great without evocation. I know it's the first thing everyone goes to when they think "I'll be a wizard, I'll fireball stuff", but it's not that great.

1) Enemies are generally 100% effective when wounded. That troll with 3 Hp can still tear you in half. The troll who is stuck in a briar web cannot.

2) EVERYONE else can do damage. So, doing damage doesn't add anything the party doesn't already have.

3) Other kinds of spells actually do MORE damage. Add up all the damage from a haste spell, and you'll be impressed.

4) Other kinds of spells (battlefield control, summoning, debuffing) can turn the entire tide of battle in one round.

Finally, I've got two characters without evocation, one in a home game, one in LG. Haven't missed it.
KarmaInferno
07-16-07, 04:26 PM As a debuffer, you are going to want to be able to reliably punch through spell resistance.

Just a thought.

-karma

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banor 07-15-07, 09:09 AM	So I'm mostly looking for some comments on the build i came up with. Its mostly based on the C'thulu mythos' character of Abdulah al-Alzred. He is a mad man, firmly beliving that he has been experimenting visions from the future where Tharizdun has returned and is raining destruction on Oerth. By leaving his studies, he tries to stop the inevitable (to him :)). I want him to be a necromancer because i feel it fit more the personality of the character (do what it must be done to stop evil) even though he sees hiself as a good person, he will be Chaotic Neutral. So here is the build. Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Transmutation and Abjuration) Str 8 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15 1.Wizard 1 : Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater spell focus (Necromancy), 2.Wizard 2 : 3.Wizard 3 : CWI 4.Wizard 4 : Stat Boost Charisma 5.Wizard 5 : Fearsome Necromancy 6.Wizard 6 : Heighten Spell 7.Nightmare Spinner 1 : Bonus spells (illusion) 8.NS 2 : Stat Boost INT 9.NS 3 : Chaining Spell 10.NS 4 11.NS 5 12.Fatespinner 1 : Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Stat Boost INT 13.FS 2 14.FS 3 15.FS 4 (Wondering between Arcane Mastery and Spell Focus illusion) In combat my main concern is save or be in trouble spell (if not outright killed) even tho i can toss up good rays and at higher level even chain them. I'm kinda of annoyed to start with 16 INT (would prefer a 18) but i need a good Charisma to make my Nightmare spinner abilities worth it. I fear that both my Necromancer and Nightmare Spinner DC will be too low but well i can't have everything. That is the main reason why i took Heighten spell I'm only loosing a caster level but its a fair trade to what i get (additional illusion spell as an illusionist + fear abilities). I'll be also very, very fragile lacking of Abjuration/Transmutation protection but fortunatly I'll be able to get a Rod of Empower, lesser for some False Life action Feel free to comment :)
Dr.Cornelius 07-15-07, 04:02 PM	A couple of things to think about: 1) I am not familiar with Nightmare Spinner, but if it is Charisma based why not go Sorcerer -> Nightmare Spinner and save the stat points? 2) Prohibiting Abjuration looses Dispel Magic which is a very important spell. Yes, the cleric can also take Dispel Magic but when you need it, you really need it. 3) Transmutation is a really strong school - think twice about prohibiting it. You lose a lot of very useful spells like Enlarge Person, Fly, Haste and Slow. 4) Consider prohibiting Enchantment and either Illusion or Evocation. Enchantment is mostly save-or-be-hosed effects that can be replicated with other schools. Illusion loses Invisibility, Evocation drops direct damage. 5) What Spells are you planning on taking? Which of those spells have a saving throw and are also Necromancy? The list is something like 1: Cause Fear 2: Blindness 3: Ray of Exhaustion 4: Bestow Curse 5: Magic Jar Necromancy also has strong no-save spells: 1: Ray of Enfeeblement 2: False Life 3: Vampiric Touch 4: Enervation Another way to go would be Empower and Metamagic School Focus. Empowering the four spells above for a +1 level bump 3/day is not bad. This trick also works with Heighten Spell. Fearsome Necromancy is not a strong Feat. The biggest problem Necromancers face is dealing with creatures immune to their effects. Have some Buff & Utility spells available available for this case.
Genghis Cohen 07-15-07, 04:32 PM	...Prohibited School : Transmutation and Abjuration...I'd think twice about that. Those are two of the strongest schools in the game. Many people, myself included, believe that there are three schools that should never be prohibited; Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are Abjuration spells. They are at the top of the debuffing food chain. Slow, a Transmutation spell, is one of the best debuffing spells out there.1) I am not familiar with Nightmare Spinner, but if it is Charisma based why not go Sorcerer -> Nightmare Spinner and save the stat points?QFT
magebeast 07-15-07, 07:36 PM	Trans as a prohibited school is also problematic because you can't craft stat boosters at that point as you lose access to the relevant spells.
Banor 07-15-07, 08:10 PM	I'll think twice about the prohibited school, but i really dont want to go sorcerer, played one in an home game and seriously i came to hate my spell list. I might drop Evocation and use the Shadow evocation line of spell with my extra illusions spells to make up for the loss so I can pick up transmutation back (good call on the stat boosters,i totally forgot :)). Dropping illusion is out of question and enchantement seem like perfect to debuff target. About Fearsome Necromancy, as a Nightmare spinner i inflict non lethal damage every time i apply a fear effect on somebody so i want to maximize that. For spells, Ghoul Touch can be devastating a low levels, as well as Scare. On stuff that be immune, i'll keep a scroll or two of command undead/halt undead/etc... close. As for Empower, should i get it as a replacement for Chaining ? Chaining is damn nice but its very expensive and with Metamagic school focus 3/d Empower is almost free for great effect... Still wondering :)
Dr.Cornelius 07-15-07, 11:44 PM	I hear you about Sorcerers - it is all about the spell list. I ran into a quote on the boards: Wizards have to plan their spells a day in advance, Sorcerers have to plan a year in advance. Fortunately you can correct most character design mistakes with retraining. If you are going the touch spell route, think about going with more than 8 Strength - touch attacks are easy, but not that easy. Also consider adding Spectral Hand, Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp to the lineup. This means you should forbid Enchantment and Illusion. Enchantment has some debuffs, but they are no better than Necro/Conjuration debuffs of the same level. The big downside to prohibiting Illusion is losing Invisibility, but you can't have everything. Chain Spell is nice, but you won't find a better bang for your buck than Empower Spell. Empower also works with Necro most of the way up the spell levels: 1st Ray of Enfeeblement -> 2nd False Life -> 3rd Vampiric Touch -> 4th Enervation And be sure to have a few spells or scrolls that will help the party when the BBEG is totally immune to your spells - for example Grease is pretty good against most constructs.
Banor 07-16-07, 09:34 AM	I hear you about Sorcerers - it is all about the spell list. I ran into a quote on the boards: Wizards have to plan their spells a day in advance, Sorcerers have to plan a year in advance. Fortunately you can correct most character design mistakes with retraining. If you are going the touch spell route, think about going with more than 8 Strength - touch attacks are easy, but not that easy. Also consider adding Spectral Hand, Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp to the lineup. This means you should forbid Enchantment and Illusion. Enchantment has some debuffs, but they are no better than Necro/Conjuration debuffs of the same level. The big downside to prohibiting Illusion is losing Invisibility, but you can't have everything. Chain Spell is nice, but you won't find a better bang for your buck than Empower Spell. Empower also works with Necro most of the way up the spell levels: 1st Ray of Enfeeblement -> 2nd False Life -> 3rd Vampiric Touch -> 4th Enervation And be sure to have a few spells or scrolls that will help the party when the BBEG is totally immune to your spells - for example Grease is pretty good against most constructs. Dropping illusion would make me drop Nightmare Spinner class, so its no go. Nightmare spinner is illusion and fear focused and it gives me extra Illusion spell slots like an illusionist (in addition to being a Necromancer). My big question is : Is a Wizard without Evocation can be viable ? Because if yes i can rely on Shadow Evocation to mimic Evocation spell and that would free a space for Transmutation (gotta get these stats booster !). Yes that still mean no dispel magic but its something I'm ready to pay (even tho it's damn annoying :)) I kinda like Enchantement and I'm not sure if dropping it only for Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic is really worth it. Feeblemind, Crushing Despair, Mind Fog etc... all make my Necromancy/Illusion spell terribly effective (as well as Nightmare Spinner class features) For spells, of course spectral hand gonna be part of my spell book asap :) I was under the impression that the hand had weapon finesse but it seem i was wrong, I'm not too sure if i want to sacrifice AC and Ranged to hit, not too sure what i should do (Reach spell maybe?). As for stuff when the BBEG will be highly resistant to my spells (construction or cleric with stupid high wisdom) what spell should i go for ? Grease is a good call but is there anything else ? New plan look like this Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Evocation and Abjuration) Str 8 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15 1.Wizard 1 : Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater spell focus (Necromancy), 2.Wizard 2 : 3.Wizard 3 : CWI 4.Wizard 4 : Stat Boost Charisma 5.Wizard 5 : Fearsome Necromancy 6.Wizard 6 : Empower 7.Nightmare Spinner 1 : Bonus spells (illusion) 8.NS 2 : Stat Boost INT 9.NS 3 : Highten Spell 10.NS 4 11.NS 5 12.Fatespinner 1 : Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Stat Boost INT 13.FS 2 14.FS 3 15.FS 4 (Either Chaining or Reach)
Genghis Cohen 07-16-07, 01:19 PM	New plan look like this Human Wizard (Necromancer, Prohibited School : Evocation and Abjuration)Without Abjuration, you're really not a debuffer wizard. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are really that good, and Abjuration has a lot of other good spells as well. You might want to consider becoming a Diviner and prohibit Evocation, or be a generalist wizard.
UMiskatonic 07-16-07, 03:04 PM	You can totally be great without evocation. I know it's the first thing everyone goes to when they think "I'll be a wizard, I'll fireball stuff", but it's not that great. 1) Enemies are generally 100% effective when wounded. That troll with 3 Hp can still tear you in half. The troll who is stuck in a briar web cannot. 2) EVERYONE else can do damage. So, doing damage doesn't add anything the party doesn't already have. 3) Other kinds of spells actually do MORE damage. Add up all the damage from a haste spell, and you'll be impressed. 4) Other kinds of spells (battlefield control, summoning, debuffing) can turn the entire tide of battle in one round. Finally, I've got two characters without evocation, one in a home game, one in LG. Haven't missed it.
KarmaInferno 07-16-07, 04:26 PM	As a debuffer, you are going to want to be able to reliably punch through spell resistance. Just a thought. -karma