Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 05-05-07, 11:16 AM	Stats: Str 17, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 6 All Stat bumps to Strength. Int is 13 for Combat Expertise (when not raging) 1: Ranger1: Track, WF: Dwarven Waraxe 2. Barbarian1: 3: Fighter1: Extra Rage, Power Attack 4: Fighter2: Endurance 5: Fighter3: 6: Deepwarden1: True Believer 7: Deepwarden2: 8: Fighter4: Improved Bullrush 9: Exotic Weapon Master1: Uncanny Blow, Shocktrooper 10: Pious Templar(Gendwar Angrim)1: Combat Expertise 11: Pious Templar 2 12: Pious Templar 3: WS: Dwarven Waraxe Feat: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) 13: Pious Templar 4: Bonus Feat: Improved Sunder 14: Fighter5: 15: Fighter6: Combat Brute This guy may be a one trick pony (Hitting and Bull rushing), the main point I am unsure of is the Combat Expertise feat, I always like having the option of buffing my AC and whipping out a shield if need be, but I am unsure. Damage curve wise, this guy will be raging at str 24 at level 12, with hopefully some decent stat boosters, so with uncanny blow and power attack should be dealing out a lot on a full attack. (not good at crunching numbers, but looks good to me)
Fronch 05-05-07, 11:34 AM	This guy may be a one trick pony (Hitting and Bull rushing), the main point I am unsure of is the Combat Expertise feat, I always like having the option of buffing my AC and whipping out a shield if need be, but I am unsure.If you whip out a shield and start expertising, you're not doing your job, which is to kill the monster.
JamesMaissen 05-05-07, 12:05 PM	Stats: 10: Pious Templar(Gendwar Angrim)1: Combat Expertise This guy may be a one trick pony (Hitting and Bull rushing), the main point I am unsure of is the Combat Expertise feat, I always like having the option of buffing my AC and whipping out a shield if need be, but I am unsure. Damage curve wise, this guy will be raging at str 24 at level 12, with hopefully some decent stat boosters, so with uncanny blow and power attack should be dealing out a lot on a full attack. (not good at crunching numbers, but looks good to me) Won't you lose your Rage ability when you become Lawful? -James
jimmy_dowdall 05-05-07, 12:14 PM	Gendwar Angrim is ln he can remain n i think and everything will work br i;m not sure
JamesMaissen 05-05-07, 12:26 PM	Gendwar Angrim is ln he can remain n i think and everything will work br i;m not sure Okay from the deity's document page 2: Point 1: Where cleric/favored soul is listed it also applies to Pious Templar. Point 5: A cleric/Favored soul may not be neutral unless his/her deity is neutral. -James
ThaiGQ 05-05-07, 04:51 PM	Endurance is not a Fighter bonus feat, so you can't take it at character level 4. Just thought I'd point that out. :P
_metz_ 05-05-07, 09:14 PM	ON the alignment issue, I can't change alignment once I become a Pious Templar but I can at any point up till then. One can most definitely change alignment after barbarian levels, you just cannot take more levels in it till you change back. Starting alignment, is neutral. By level 7, he is LN. That simple. There are also role playing justifications for this, which I won't go into at this present time. The comment that endurance is not a fighter bonus feat is very helpful, thank you
_metz_ 05-05-07, 09:23 PM	Taking into account suggestions here: Stats: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 All Stat bumps to Strength. Wisdom is 10 for The +1 to the save, as Skill points shouldn't be a major issue. 1: Ranger1: Track, Endurance 2. Barbarian1: 3: Fighter1: Extra Rage, WF: Dwarven Waraxe 4: Fighter2: Power Attack 5: Fighter3: 6: Deepwarden1: True Believer 7: Deepwarden2: 8: Fighter4: Improved Bullrush 9: Exotic Weapon Master1: Uncanny Blow, Shock trooper 10: Pious Templar(Gendwar Angrim)1: Mettle 11: Pious Templar2: 12: Pious Templar3: WS: Dwarven Waraxe, Feat: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) 13: Pious Templar 4: Bonus Feat: Improved Sunder 14: Fighter5: 15: Fighter6: Combat Brute Was thinking of Ranger for the Endurance, but then I would take an XP hit. I am pretty happy with the build till level 13, I like combat brute, is it worth taking?
bitznarf 05-05-07, 09:32 PM	ON the alignment issue, I can't change alignment once I become a Pious Templar but I can at any point up till then. One can most definitely change alignment after barbarian levels, you just cannot take more levels in it till you change back. Starting alignment, is neutral. By level 7, he is LN. That simple. There are also role playing justifications for this, which I won't go into at this present time. You also lose the ability to rage by going lawful.
_metz_ 05-05-07, 10:31 PM	You also lose the ability to rage by going lawful. hmm, originally I was hoping to become Neutral, but that appears to have been shot down. Ok now the build needs some definite reworking, as I want that rage... *goes off to find deities document...
bitznarf 05-05-07, 10:57 PM	The biggest issues I see with this character is that he has a real glass jaw. Yes, he has alot of HP. But when you use shock trooper you will be abysmally easy to hit. Alot of builds I have seen use Elusive Target to ameliorate that somewhat. I don't know if you've thought about it, but it is something to look at.
_metz_ 05-05-07, 11:04 PM	I have thought about it, unfortunately, Elusive Target requires two feats, and a dex score. It kinda goes against the idea of the Deepwarden Dwarf.
_metz_ 05-05-07, 11:22 PM	How about this build then: Same stat line: 1: Ranger1: Track, Endurance 2. Barbarian1: 3: Fighter1: Extra Rage, WF: Dwarven Waraxe 4: Fighter2: Power Attack 5: Fighter3: 6: Deepwarden1: Improved Initiative 7: Deepwarden2: 8: Fighter4: Weapon Specialisation 9: Exotic Weapon Master1: Uncanny Blow, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) 10: Occult Slayer1: 11: Occult Slayer2: 12: Occult Slayer3: Improved bullrush 13: Occult Slayer4: 14: Occult Slayer5: 15: Exotic Weapon Master: Shocktrooper I feel That I am low on feats in this build, and it might not work. Any idea how I can get a similar result but work in Combat brute as well?
zoinks69 05-06-07, 03:54 AM	I have a similar base concept, so I'll throw my hat in the ring... Note that I have the 18 str/18 con/10 wis version ;) The Pious Templar thing is rough given the lack of deities with Waraxe as favored weapon (also applies to spiked chain). You can get around this by picking another weapon instead, though I'm pressed to think of anything as good as waraxe. I'm certainly keeping an eye out for any good options. Double sword gets you a different option -- EWM flurry instead of uncanny blow. Follow it up late in the game with Slashing Flurry and Haste/Boots of speed to get 4 main attacks. You'd also be good for Templar via Kelanen. Personal preference would be for 3 levels of Ranger to get Endurance for free, plus good skill points (so 3 ranger, 1 barb, 1 fighter prior to Deepwarden. I'm planning to go Barb, Ranger, Fighter, 2 Ranger). Consider taking Barbarian first (you lose skill points but get HP and rage) -- perhaps Extra Rage from the get-go even though you normally don't see 3 combats a day at low level, you get it out of the way as it's not a fighter bonus feat. You're going to have quite a few levels of "pain" as your AC will start at 'terrible' and only get to 'mediocre' until Deepwarden kicks in. You make up for it by being able to dish incredible amounts of melee damage (with no work you are +7 to hit and min damage 10 at level 1 while raging, Power Attack at level 2 or 3 makes things even better). Stock up on disposables (pearl of power 1 if you get access makes for some happy casters) and make friends with the clerics!
_metz_ 05-06-07, 07:14 AM	Double sword gets you a different option -- EWM flurry instead of uncanny blow. Follow it up late in the game with Slashing Flurry and Haste/Boots of speed to get 4 main attacks. You'd also be good for Templar via Kelanen. Personal preference would be for 3 levels of Ranger to get Endurance for free, plus good skill points (so 3 ranger, 1 barb, 1 fighter prior to Deepwarden. I'm planning to go Barb, Ranger, Fighter, 2 Ranger). Consider taking Barbarian first (you lose skill points but get HP and rage) -- perhaps Extra Rage from the get-go even though you normally don't see 3 combats a day at low level, you get it out of the way as it's not a fighter bonus feat. Issue is I don't want an Xp penalty, which three ranger will net me. First level as ranger is a must for skill points for the deepwarden then. - lose 4 HPs but gain like 8 skill points. Also, Bastard sword was a consideration, (I want Uncanny blow, its just too nice on a raging Barbarian to not have) only there are a few issues with this: 1. You still need to waste the feat for exotic proficiency. 2. Because you have to waste a feat, you lose the benefit of pious templar netting you mettle and two feats for 4 levels - as its only mettle and one feat (which makes occult slayer seem nicer -True Believer for Improved Initiative) 3. I will find it hard to justify roleplaying a Deepwarden Dwarf of a Human Deity. I like making my characters as good as they can be, but I really can't see myself role playing that.
zoinks69 05-06-07, 11:19 AM	Ah, forgot about the penalty. Remedy would be to add or swap in another Barb level (netting you Uncanny Dodge). As it is, I'd probably suck up the penalty at least for a few levels as the apl 6-10ish is "the most fun" anyway, in my opinion. What really hurts is that Endurance is not a fighter bonus feat (most if not all of the other Ranger bonus feats are).
bitznarf 05-06-07, 12:00 PM	First level as ranger is a must for skill points for the deepwarden then. - lose 4 HPs but gain like 8 skill points. You only lose 2 HP. Ranger then Barb: 8 + 7 = 15 Barb then Ranger: 12 + 5 = 17 The actual 'loss' of HP is only 1/2 the difference between the hit dice.
Swiftbrook 05-06-07, 12:30 PM	Endurance is not a Fighter bonus feat, so you can't take it at character level 4. Just thought I'd point that out. :P Make this change instead. At 4th level, retrain your 1st level Weapon Focus to Endurance and take Weapon Focus as your 4th level feat. Here's the build I'm currently working on (at 2nd level now). I really tried to avoid the level in ranger but couldn't get Deep Warden until like 10th level which was unacceptable. Str +4, Dex +0, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha -2 1: Barbarian: 15 HP, Power Attack, Rage, Fast Movement 2: Fighter: 25 HP, Weapon Focus(War Ax) 3: Ranger: 34 HP, Extra Rage, Track, retrain F1 to Dwarf F1 to gain 1 hp, Weapon Focus to Axe Focus, and 1 skill point Knowledge Dungeons. 4: Figher: HP 43, Bonus Feat 5: Barbarian: 53, Uncanny Dodge 6: Deep Warden: 63 HP, Retrain Powr Attack to Endurance, Power Attack, Trap Sence 7: Deep Warden: 73 HP, Stone Warden 8: Fighter: 82 HP, Str to 20 9: Fighter: 93 HP, Weapon Specialization (War Axe), Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing). 10: Exotic Weapon Mater ?? for Full Power Attack one-handed. That's as far as I've gotten. I'm not sure what to do the the 4th level feat. Maybe Improved Toughnes for an extra HP per level. Mithral Full Plate and an Adimanti War Axe are a must. -Swiftbrook (edit was fixing missing 9th level with WSp and MWM)
_metz_ 05-06-07, 01:21 PM	Make this change instead. At 4th level, retrain your 1st level Weapon Focus to Endurance and take Weapon Focus as your 4th level feat. Here's the build I'm currently working on (at 2nd level now). I really tried to avoid the level in ranger but couldn't get Deep Warden until like 10th level which was unacceptable. Str +4, Dex +0, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha -2 1: Barbarian: 15 HP, Power Attack, Rage, Fast Movement 2: Fighter: 25 HP, Weapon Focus(War Ax) 3: Ranger: 34 HP, Extra Rage, Track, retrain F1 to Dwarf F1 to gain 1 hp, Weapon Focus to Axe Focus, and 1 skill point Knowledge Dungeons. 4: Figher: HP 43, Bonus Feat 5: Barbarian: 53, Uncanny Dodge 6: Deep Warden: 63 HP, Retrain Powr Attack to Endurance, Power Attack, Trap Sence 7: Deep Warden: 73 HP, Stone Warden 8: Figher: 82 HP, Str to 20 10: Exotic Weapon Mater ?? for Full Power Attack one-handed. That's as far as I've gotten. I'm not sure what to do the the 4th level feat. Maybe Improved Toughnes for an extra HP per level. Mithral Full Plate and an Adimanti War Axe are a must. -Swiftbrook There are a lot of things wrong with this. 1. Power attack at first level is much less important than plus one to hit from weapon focus. 2. With the Low Int I need Ranger for the skill points, I will have 151 HPs at level 15, without stat boosters, I can lose the two points for the 8 skills. 3. There is no Weapon Specialisation or Melee Weapon Mastery in this build (only three fighter levels at level 9) Essentially you have given me the same build with Uncanny dodge instead of two feats. This would mean earliest I could get Melee Weapon Mastery is level 12 in your build. - I think those 2 feats are more important than uncanny dodge. The Character will buy a Starmetal/Adamantine waraxe at first access opportunity (i.e: when enough gold). Hell I can probably get access in an interactive organised in a couple of months if I ask extra nice... 1: Ranger1: Track, Endurance 2. Barbarian1: 3: Fighter1: Extra Rage, WF: Dwarven Waraxe 4: Fighter2: Power Attack 5: Fighter3: 6: Deepwarden1: Improved Initiative 7: Deepwarden2: 8: Fighter4: Weapon Specialisation 9: Exotic Weapon Master1: Uncanny Blow, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) 10: Occult Slayer1: 11: Occult Slayer2: 12: Occult Slayer3: Improved bullrush 13: Occult Slayer4: 14: Occult Slayer5: 15: Exotic Weapon Master: Shocktrooper As you can see in the latest build, Extra Rage, and Endurance, and Improved Initiative are normal feats. IN your build, I would suggest not taking the two levels in Barbarian.
GorTeX 05-06-07, 02:52 PM	3: Ranger: 34 HP, Extra Rage, Track, retrain F1 to Dwarf F1 to gain 1 hp, Weapon Focus to Axe Focus, and 1 skill point Knowledge Dungeons. Nice, but you need access for this.. 6: Deep Warden: 63 HP, Retrain Powr Attack to Endurance, Power Attack, Trap Sence You need endurance to Take the Deep Warden class. You cannont retrain into Endurance the same level that you take your Deep Warden level. (you pick class 1st, then retrain)
Nerax 05-06-07, 03:57 PM	Here is my build, he is only 1st level with 2 mods in but.... Dwarf Str 16 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 6 1 Barbarian, Extra Rage, 20 Skill Points, 16 HP, Terran 2 Ranger, Track, 25 HP 3 Ranger, Endurance, 34 HP 4 Fighter, WF Greataxe, +1 Str, 44 5 Fighter, Power Attack, 54 HP 6 Deepwarden, Close Quarters Combat, 65 HP 7 Deepwarden, Stone Warden, 76, HP 8 Stonelord, Earths Blood, +1 Str, 85 HP 9 Stonelord, Reckless Rage, Stoneskin 1/day, 94 HP 10 Barbarian, Uncanny Dodge, 105 HP 11 Deepwarden, 116 HP 12 Deepwarden, Improved Toughness ?, +1 Int ?, 139 HP 13 - 15 ?, +15 BAB (169 to 175ish HP at 15th)
Swiftbrook 05-06-07, 04:00 PM	There are a lot of things wrong with this. 13. There is no Weapon Specialisation or Melee Weapon Mastery in this build (only three fighter levels at level 9) Typo. I've gone back and added the 9th level which was 4th Fighter with those two feats. IN your build, I would suggest not taking the two levels in Barbarian. As stated, I've already started this character and I'm currently at second level already. Nice, but you need access for this. Extra Rage is open. You need endurance to Take the Deep Warden class. You cannont retrain into Endurance the same level that you take your Deep Warden level. (you pick class 1st, then retrain) The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied. I have not seen any reference that picking a class comes before retraining. I could be wrong. -Swiftbrook
GorTeX 05-06-07, 10:58 PM	Extra Rage is open. not the extra rage, the Dwarven Substitution Level..they are not open. I have not seen any reference that picking a class comes before retraining. I could be wrong. Yes, Britt posted it in the rules thread I think....ah, here it is, post 375 http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11927604&postcount=375
zoinks69 05-06-07, 11:41 PM	not the extra rage, the Dwarven Substitution Level..they are not open. Yes, Britt posted it in the rules thread I think....ah, here it is, post 375 http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11927604&postcount=375 This "ruling" is disappointing. I think it's pretty clear that retraining itself happens before your next level is taken. That said, he could retrain out of Extra Rage the level before and suck it up for 5th level and take it again at 6th.
_metz_ 05-07-07, 12:12 AM	Here is my build, he is only 1st level with 2 mods in but.... Dwarf Str 16 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 6 1 Barbarian, Extra Rage, 20 Skill Points, 16 HP, Terran 2 Ranger, Track, 25 HP 3 Ranger, Endurance, 34 HP 4 Fighter, WF Greataxe, +1 Str, 44 5 Fighter, Power Attack, 54 HP 6 Deepwarden, Close Quarters Combat, 65 HP 7 Deepwarden, Stone Warden, 76, HP 8 Stonelord, Earths Blood, +1 Str, 85 HP 9 Stonelord, Reckless Rage, Stoneskin 1/day, 94 HP 10 Barbarian, Uncanny Dodge, 105 HP 11 Deepwarden, 116 HP 12 Deepwarden, Improved Toughness ?, +1 Int ?, 139 HP 13 - 15 ?, +15 BAB (169 to 175ish HP at 15th) Why Greataxe? If you use a Dwarven Waraxe (exotic) you switch from d12 x3 crit to a d10 x3 Crit. Then you can take a one level dip into Exotic Weapon mAster for uncanny blow - thats +1 Bab, minimal prereqs as you already have the feats, and can do a lot more damage. Again, I would only take one level of Ranger, and one level of Barbarian, it means you get to fighter 4 which means weapon specialisation, and melee weapon mastery. Pretty good feats for any fighter type In your build I would go: 1: Barbarian1:, Extra Rage, 20 Skill Points, Terran <already taken> 2: Ranger1:, Track, (skill points into knowledge dungeoneering) 3: Fighter1:, (WF Dwarven Waraxe) Endurance, 4: Fighter2: Power Attack, +1 Str, 5: Fighter3: 6: Deepwarden, Close Quarters Combat, 7: Deepwarden, Stone Warden, 8: Fighter4: (Weapon Specialisation) +1 Str, 9: Exotic Weapon Master: Uncanny Blow, Melee Weapon Mastery 10: Stonelord, Earths Blood, 11: Stonelord, Stoneskin 1/day, 12: Deepwarden, Reckless Rage +1 Str, Animal Messenger 13: Deepwarden, Uncanny Dodge 14: Barbarian2: Improved Uncanny Dodge (need to be 10th level rogue to flank you) 15: ????? - unsure what to put here If you can pull off the skill points without the level of ranger, I would suggest take Barbarian2: at level 2 (Uncanny dodge early) then 14 and 15 can be fighter levels. (extra feat) and you get track form deepwarden anyways...
Swiftbrook 05-08-07, 06:52 AM	not the extra rage, the Dwarven Substitution Level..they are not open. Veluna Dwarf. Open at 1st level. Sorry I didn't mention that. Yes, Britt posted it in the rules thread I think....ah, here it is, post 375 http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11927604&postcount=375 This is disappointing. -Swiftbrook
delewobmesid 05-08-07, 02:17 PM	there is a minor problem with getting the skills you need to get into deepwarden; kw 5 duengoneering and 5 spot and only class full BAB I know of with both is ranger; look at the MWaO's thread for a good ranger/fighter/deepwarden/pious template/ewm
Swiftbrook 05-08-07, 07:16 PM	there is a minor problem with getting the skills you need to get into deepwarden; kw 5 duengoneering and 5 spot and only class full BAB I know of with both is ranger; look at the MWaO's thread for a good ranger/fighter/deepwarden/pious template/ewm Stop trying to give me a heartattack! Spot 5 is not a requirement for Deepwarden, at least not in my printing. I just double checked and didn't find any errata on the WotC site. Here's my skill build, remember, I'm trying to avoid levels in ranger. 1) Barbarian: Climb 4, Heal 1 cc, Jump 4, Survival 4, Spot 2 2) Fighter (dwarf): Knowledge Dungeonering 2 3) Ranger: Heal +3 = 4, Knowledge Dungeonering +2 = 4, Survival +1 = 5 4) Fighter: Climb +1 = 5, Jump + 1 = 5 5) Barbarian: Heal + 1 cc = 5, Knowledge Dungeonering +1 cc = 5 6) Deep Warden Three lost skill points for cross class skills to avoid levels in ranger. I still get into Deep Warden as early as possible. Remember, Dwarf Susbstitution Figher has Knowledge Dungeonering as a class skill. If you don't have access, you can change the +2 to spot at 1st level to +1 K(D). Still have not heard any suggestions for my 4th level Fighter 2 feat. What do you think of Heavy Armor Optimization? Also, the info on retraining occuring after you choose a class, hasn't made "Dispel Confusion". -Swiftbrook
GorTeX 05-09-07, 12:42 AM	Also, the info on retraining occuring after you choose a class, hasn't made "Dispel Confusion". -Swiftbrook 1) it's posted by a Circle Member (Britt) 2) who writes the Dispel confusions 3) in a LG Q&A thread (LGCS rules, not D&D rules) 4) with the note that "This is an LG ruling and will be in the next Dispel Confusion". That is about as close to an official ruling as you can get (at least for me)
JamesMaissen 05-09-07, 11:47 AM	1) Barbarian: Climb 4, Heal 1 cc, Jump 4, Survival 4, Spot 2 2) Fighter (dwarf): Knowledge Dungeonering 2 3) Ranger: Heal +3 = 4, Knowledge Dungeonering +2 = 4, Survival +1 = 5 4) Fighter: Climb +1 = 5, Jump + 1 = 5 5) Barbarian: Heal + 1 cc = 5, Knowledge Dungeonering +1 cc = 5 6) Deep Warden -Swiftbrook I'm sorry why not raise Heal to 5 ranks at 3rd level instead of Survival. Then at 5th level raise Survival instead of Heal. This gives you a skill point. Also Spot is not a class skill for Barbarian, so I think you'd have Spot 1 not 2. -James
katrick 05-09-07, 01:11 PM	Combat Expertise doesn't work with rage. My build copped the Xp hit and was doing fine till the LGCS 597 took out Alter Self Base stats Str 14 Dex 10 Con 20 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 6 1 Barb 1 Improved Init,Rage,Extra Move 2 Wiz 1 Scirbe Scroll, Summon Familiar 3 Wiz 2 Practised Spellcaster 4 Wiz 3 5 Rgr 1 Track,Wild Empathy,Favored Enemy Human 6 Ftr 1 Endurance, Power Attack 7 Ftr 2 Cleave 8 Deepwarden 1 Track 9 Deep 2 Stonewarden Reckless Rage 10 Spellsword 11 Earth Dreamer 12 Earth Improved Crit 13 Earth 14 Earth 15 Earth Extra Rage The plan was to True Strike,Critical Strike,Power attack Max then Rage with his Keen Spell storing Falchion,whilst Blurred,Enlarged and Bull Strengthed and Bears Enduranced with an AC in the mid thirties without armor, and running through walls. Now he's stuck in Red Hand and runs around in Full Plate with his Wand of Magic Missile 9th and Cure Moderate Wounds.(only 8th at the Mo) The real beauty of Rage is that you don't lose any AC, your con bonus to AC goes up 2 when you rage, so take Reckless rage for even more Con add an Amulet of health, all 3 stat bumps etc... And as a Dwarf you can still Tumble. Katrick
bitznarf 05-09-07, 01:53 PM	Just a note - Con bonus to AC is still capped by the max dex bonus on your armor.
Maesto 05-12-07, 04:43 AM	I don't see why you're starting strength at 18 - start it at 17 and put three bumps into it, put the other three points into int or wisdom (skill points or saves). Note that if you're going to have a massive con and rage to keep your AC the same, that you need armour that will support your new con. If you start at 18, get a stat boost +2, and rage, your con will be 24, which outdoes a mithril chainshirt. You're better off looking at leather/padded/gnome twistcloth to fully utilise your massive con bonus. Note that the best you can really do is with mithril fullplate and a con of 16, unfortunately :( although I haven't looked at all of the funky armours from the newer books. Gnome Twistcloth, although it needs a feat, will get you past 11, although you need your con to get to 32 before it really counts (which you can do if you start with a con of 20 and use rage, but then your AC goes down by 2 anyway...) Another trick is to not wear armour, and go for con + wisdom by taking monk levels (which also net you skill points required for deepwarden). Ask the party mage for mage armour and all is hunky doory, but you don't even get a shield then.
CSHunt68 05-13-07, 08:55 AM	I don't see why you're starting strength at 18 - start it at 17 and put three bumps into it, put the other three points into int or wisdom (skill points or saves). Note that if you're going to have a massive con and rage to keep your AC the same, that you need armour that will support your new con. If you start at 18, get a stat boost +2, and rage, your con will be 24, which outdoes a mithril chainshirt. You're better off looking at leather/padded/gnome twistcloth to fully utilise your massive con bonus. Note that the best you can really do is with mithril fullplate and a con of 16, unfortunately :( although I haven't looked at all of the funky armours from the newer books. Gnome Twistcloth, although it needs a feat, will get you past 11, although you need your con to get to 32 before it really counts (which you can do if you start with a con of 20 and use rage, but then your AC goes down by 2 anyway...) Another trick is to not wear armour, and go for con + wisdom by taking monk levels (which also net you skill points required for deepwarden). Ask the party mage for mage armour and all is hunky doory, but you don't even get a shield then. You don't need a Feat to use Gnome Twist Cloth, since it has an ACP of 0, and therefore there is no penalty to unproficient use. The benefit of having the Feat is that you can add its armour bonus to your touch AC.
Genghis Cohen 05-13-07, 11:08 AM	Just a note - Con bonus to AC is still capped by the max dex bonus on your armor.This is an LG campaign rule, and its why Deepwarden isn't that great in LG.
_metz_ 05-13-07, 09:34 PM	This is an LG campaign rule, and its why Deepwarden isn't that great in LG. Its still extremely good - you only need two stats. Its a bit of a joke outside of LG.
katrick 05-14-07, 01:38 PM	This is an LG campaign rule, and its why Deepwarden isn't that great in LG. It's not an LG rule, it is explicitly stated under the Stonewarden ability(in Races of Stone) that it replaces your Dex, and Dex is limited by armor, and you lose your Con\Dex when Flat-footed etc, it is merely clarified in the LGCS. It's an AC version of Weapon Finesse, and weapon finesse still cops a penalty for non-proficiency though that is not explicitly stated under the feat. Katrick
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:28 PM	um. no. that is a pretty big presumption there. Why is con limited like dex? they are two completely different things It is in LG cos it means the class isn't overpowered. (well, more overpowered) The assumption you work on does not reflect the rules. As for Weapon Finesse, you use your Dex instead of your strength for attack rolls, and as non proficiency applies to attack rolls in general NOT your strength score, then weapon finesse is affected BY the rules. You logic is a bit flawed if you assume they are the same. And nowhere does it say that if one stat is replaced by another than all the conditions on the previous stat apply to the new one. It sets out some clear conditions in the description, those apply, the others do not.
bitznarf 05-15-07, 12:31 PM	Why is con limited like dex? they are two completely different things Because it is the number that is replaced, not the whole rule set surrounding the number.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:34 PM	NO its a completely different value actually. If it didn't require clarification then why has it been clarified? IN any case a lot of people will disagree on this, there is no sense in argueing it as we play LG, which does have a nice clarification. (I think the class is strong enough as it is lol)
delewobmesid 05-15-07, 02:18 PM	The real beauty of Rage is that you don't lose any AC, your con bonus to AC goes up 2 when you rage, so take Reckless rage for even more Con add an Amulet of health, all 3 stat bumps etc... And as a Dwarf you can still Tumble. Katrick I have to say I'm confused by this; the AC penalty put in place by rage is un-named, so it cannot specifically apply to a given AC bonus correct? If that is true, your dex bonus is still capped by your armor (at +1) and your AC still drops by 2 during rage (or more while using reckless rage) If a Deepwarden2 dwarf with a con of 18 was in a mithral chain shirt (max dex +6) barbarian raged (without a dex limiting shield) his Con Bonus of +4 would offset the -2 AC penalty. Is my understanding correct?
CSHunt68 05-15-07, 02:30 PM	If your Con bonus to AC is already maxed by your armour before Raging then, yes, your AC will drop. Boosting your Con bonus past the point supportable by your armour won't help your AC. The Rage AC penalties still accrue, naturally.
katrick 05-15-07, 11:20 PM	um. no. that is a pretty big presumption there. Why is con limited like dex? they are two completely different things It is in LG cos it means the class isn't overpowered. (well, more overpowered) The assumption you work on does not reflect the rules. As for Weapon Finesse, you use your Dex instead of your strength for attack rolls, and as non proficiency applies to attack rolls in general NOT your strength score, then weapon finesse is affected BY the rules. You logic is a bit flawed if you assume they are the same. And nowhere does it say that if one stat is replaced by another than all the conditions on the previous stat apply to the new one. It sets out some clear conditions in the description, those apply, the others do not. and nowhere does it say it doesn't ergo it does, Dex is limited by armor, con replaces dex,ergo taking on all req's of dex. katrick
_metz_ 05-15-07, 11:36 PM	NO its a completely different value actually. If it didn't require clarification then why has it been clarified? IN any case a lot of people will disagree on this, there is no sense in argueing it as we play LG, which does have a nice clarification. (I think the class is strong enough as it is lol) I stand by this.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 06:42 AM	The LGCS ruling is a clarification and not a change. It is unclear in the text whether your Max Dex to AC limits the Con-to-AC. The fact that the Circle were allowed to make this clarification inclines me to believe that it was the designers' intent but there is no right or wrong answer outside of LG.
Mommy was an Orc 05-18-07, 03:46 PM	There are also armors that let you take advantage of this in any case - Thistledown Padded armor has a +1 Armor bonus, but max dex of +10. It isn't too hard for a Deepwarden Dwarf to have a starting 18 Con, add +6 for an item, then +3 more for Reckless Raging. And that's now open access.
katrick 05-18-07, 04:19 PM	How high do bracers go?? Pearl of power 3rd for GMA?? Rod of Extend Ring of Pro. Amulet of Nat. Armor Titan Fighting. Two weapon defense Defending Spec ability on a shield + weapon Even duellist if you cast Keep talkin and we can really make this PRC work. Origannaly, i got to 88 with Alter self, Dragon skin and fighting defensivly can we go further????? katrick AC hammer; you can't touch this?? In reality? of DnD if you hit 50 AC then you are AC Hammer
boolean 05-20-07, 09:18 AM	There are also armors that let you take advantage of this in any case - Thistledown Padded armor has a +1 Armor bonus, but max dex of +10. It isn't too hard for a Deepwarden Dwarf to have a starting 18 Con, add +6 for an item, then +3 more for Reckless Raging. And that's now open access. Which item are you referring to as being open? Thistledown Padded isn't. None of the armors from RotW are open. (The armor table in RotW doesn't actually have any new armor types, just old armor types made from assorted special materials.)
Mommy was an Orc 05-20-07, 09:43 AM	Which item are you referring to as being open? Thistledown Padded isn't. None of the armors from RotW are open. (The armor table in RotW doesn't actually have any new armor types, just old armor types made from assorted special materials.) Hmm. Interesting. Whoops - I have a character with metaorg access, so I somehow got that mixed up.