Deepwarden help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deepwarden help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necrochaos
06-29-07, 07:34 AM This is the current build

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack
2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe
3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage
4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19
5: Ranger 3 - Endurance
6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs)
7: Deepwarden 2
8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20
9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper

I'm at the 5th level of the build. I was wondering if taken Reckless Rage would be worthwhile? The extra strength would be awesome and my con would go up, raising my AC, then the penalty would cancel out the bonus. Doesn't seem like I lose much more when I rage. Should I take this at 6rh level?
Maesto
06-29-07, 09:06 AM Depends what your arrmour is... if you have too much con, you'll be limited by your armour. The penalty is two and the bonus is only one, so reckless rage will take you backwards regardless. Still, reckless rage is pretty awesome ;-)
_metz_
06-29-07, 11:26 AM This is the current build

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack
2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe
3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage
4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19
5: Ranger 3 - Endurance
6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs)
7: Deepwarden 2
8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20
9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper

I'm at the 5th level of the build. I was wondering if taken Reckless Rage would be worthwhile? The extra strength would be awesome and my con would go up, raising my AC, then the penalty would cancel out the bonus. Doesn't seem like I lose much more when I rage. Should I take this at 6rh level?

With that wisdom I would suggest Pious templar. Pity that won't work with the dwarven waraxe. (Need to be LN to have it from Gendwar Angrim, and that means no rage)

Level 6 Feat Take Improved Initiative.

Then take levels in Occult Slayer.

Another option is a massive retrain and change of deity and a switch away from exotic weapon master to take advantageous of pious templar.

I would suggest Clandeggin Silverbeard for this. (Battleaxe).

The Ranger levels were probably not that great an idea, cos you WANT weapon spec for melee weapon mastery.

Some other feat choices could be:

Improved Sunder --> Combat Brute.
Jay_Ibero_911
06-29-07, 02:58 PM That XP penalty must be annoying...but it's hard to get into deepwarden without the ranger levels just for the skills...While it's not the most powerful option, you may want to pick up blind fight and go Dark Hunter to add to the underground warrior theme...
King Kashue
06-29-07, 03:05 PM With that wisdom I would suggest Pious templar. Pity that won't work with the dwarven waraxe. (Need to be LN to have it from Gendwar Angrim, and that means no rage)

You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN.
Jay_Ibero_911
06-29-07, 03:22 PM You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN.

Yes, but you can't be a true neutral divine caster unless your deity is also true neutral.
King Kashue
06-29-07, 04:11 PM Yes, but you can't be a true neutral divine caster unless your deity is also true neutral.

Ah, you're right. Forgot that.
Necrochaos
06-29-07, 07:43 PM I took two ranger levels for the skill points so I didn't have to cross class. I just hit level 5 (haven't filled out the AR completely). I'll take Fighter 2 instead to keep from an XP penalty.

I'll take Endurance as the bonus feat, improved Int at 6 and take Occult Slayer later. Good call

I almost did the Pious Templar thing, but my best friend is a cleric of Moridan, so I'm his dopey, muscle brother. I know, crazy me, RP reasons for character choices.

Thanks for the advice. I'll ask for more as I level.

I also plan to retrain later as I have access to racial substitution (fighter, dwarf) that I plan to use. So I'll retrain out endurance later and take the 3rd ranger level
Jay_Ibero_911
06-29-07, 08:09 PM I took two ranger levels for the skill points so I didn't have to cross class. I just hit level 5 (haven't filled out the AR completely). I'll take Fighter 2 instead to keep from an XP penalty.

I'll take Endurance as the bonus feat, improved Int at 6 and take Occult Slayer later. Good call

I almost did the Pious Templar thing, but my best friend is a cleric of Moridan, so I'm his dopey, muscle brother. I know, crazy me, RP reasons for character choices.

Thanks for the advice. I'll ask for more as I level.

I also plan to retrain later as I have access to racial substitution (fighter, dwarf) that I plan to use. So I'll retrain out endurance later and take the 3rd ranger level

Endurance isn't a fighter bonus feat, so you'd either HAVE to take ranger 3 to get endurance or take it at 6th level...postponing deepwarden...
Necrochaos
06-29-07, 08:16 PM Endurance isn't a fighter bonus feat, so you'd either HAVE to take ranger 3 to get endurance or take it at 6th level...postponing deepwarden...

What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level?

Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack?
Jay_Ibero_911
06-29-07, 08:33 PM What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level?

Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack?

Bingo! Retrain for the win!
_metz_
06-29-07, 10:16 PM What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level?

Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack?

That is a MUCH smarter option. Your Stat bumps suggest your starting strength is 18 but you have written it as 20. What actually is your strength? (out of interest).

I would suggest a LOT of retraining. Having Wisdom 14 and not taking a class that takes advantage of that is a bit of a waste imho.
_metz_
06-29-07, 10:17 PM You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN.

Can only be LN or LG If you are a Cleric/Favoured Soul/Pious Templar of Gendwar Angrim. (The only Dwarven Deity with Dwarven Waraxe as a favored weapon.)

Its unfortunate, I have to change around the whole concept of one of my characters when i found it out.
JamesMaissen
06-29-07, 10:31 PM 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe

8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20

My advice is to retrain WF: Dwf Waraxe into WF: Urgosh. Then take flurry of strikes at 8th instead of Uncanny Blow. You can also work on TWF when it suits you to use it.

-James
King Kashue
06-29-07, 11:03 PM Can only be LN or LG If you are a Cleric/Favoured Soul/Pious Templar of Gendwar Angrim. (The only Dwarven Deity with Dwarven Waraxe as a favored weapon.)

Its unfortunate, I have to change around the whole concept of one of my characters when i found it out.

*cough*posts 6 & 7*cough* ;)
Necrochaos
06-29-07, 11:24 PM That is a MUCH smarter option. Your Stat bumps suggest your starting strength is 18 but you have written it as 20. What actually is your strength? (out of interest).

I would suggest a LOT of retraining. Having Wisdom 14 and not taking a class that takes advantage of that is a bit of a waste imho.

It is 16, I copied an old build
Necrochaos
06-29-07, 11:28 PM I didn't realize the build was so bad.
bitznarf
06-30-07, 01:09 AM I didn't realize the build was so bad.
The way you had it built was somewhat above iconic in my opinion, just not fully optimized if that was your target. Nothing wrong with being 'above iconic'.
_metz_
06-30-07, 02:21 AM *cough*posts 6 & 7*cough* ;)

I was explaining that I used to make the same mistake all the time. It actually cost me heavily and if it wasn't for retraining would have had a ruined character.

I didn't realize the build was so bad.

OK, Wall of text to the face. be prepared.

I think it is PERFECTLY savable, and will be actually very good at level 9 still. (before the crunch of APL 10 where you NEED to be good.)

Ok, I think that you HAVE to take the 3rd level of Ranger otherwise you will be at least one feat behind the A-Ball. There is a simple yet effective way to get around this problem.

That is: Delay Deepwarden by ONE level. Wear Heavy Plate to offset this issue, and suck it up for an extra level. For the character's overall sake.

1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack
2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe
3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage
4: Ranger 2
5: Barbarian 2: Retrain WF: D. Waraxe to WF: <Insert some other good weapon, e.g: greatsword>
6: Ranger 3: Endurance, FEAT: True Believer
7. Deepwarden Dwarf:
8. Deepwarden Dwarf: Stonewarden
9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, FEAT: Shocktrooper
10: Pious Templar 1: Mettle
11: Pious Templar 2:
12: Pious Templar 3: Weapon Specialisation, FEAT: Melee Weapon Mastery
13: Pious Templar 4: Improved Critical: Greatsword/whatever weapon
14: Fighter 3:
15: Fighter 4: Improved Sunder, FEAT: Combat Brute

You lose out on Uncanny Blow, but retain your rage AND get level 2 Pious Templar Spells. Also the lack of Uncanny Dodge is made up for by other abilities. You also get Uncanny Dodge and work (Uncanny dodge would net you another extra 5 or so points of damage, weapon spec, melee weapon mastery and Greatsword instead of Dwarven Waraxe more than makes up for it.)

Idea is run around swinging a weapon for two handed Power attack (Animated Shields are fun) and Smack things REALLY hard. Improved Critical on a Greatsword is fun too.

I think this build will be completely viable, but I reckon someone will pick a hole in it... *Whistles and waits for Mommy to chime in* So it may be able to be tuned better.
zoinks69
06-30-07, 12:21 PM I don't see any major problems there, _metz_. Personal preference would be to skip Shocktrooper, trade it for Brute, or take Reckless Rage + something else, or Reckless and move Pious Templar up -- Melee Weapon Mastery should be a priority IMO.

The XP/gold penalty is the only real issue with these builds (as I've got one of my own in the works). The alternative, as already mentioned, is to suck it up and retrain into Endurance (which is WAY better than playing 2 levels with the feat). Maybe Barb 1/Ftr X/Ranger X (for the skill points to get into Deepwarden). More early fighter levels gets you another way into Weapon Spec, not that PT levels are wasted in that regard, but maybe you could get Spec/Mastery even earlier that way.
_metz_
06-30-07, 01:02 PM I don't see any major problems there, _metz_. Personal preference would be to skip Shocktrooper, trade it for Brute, or take Reckless Rage + something else, or Reckless and move Pious Templar up -- Melee Weapon Mastery should be a priority IMO.

The XP/gold penalty is the only real issue with these builds (as I've got one of my own in the works). The alternative, as already mentioned, is to suck it up and retrain into Endurance (which is WAY better than playing 2 levels with the feat). Maybe Barb 1/Ftr X/Ranger X (for the skill points to get into Deepwarden). More early fighter levels gets you another way into Weapon Spec, not that PT levels are wasted in that regard, but maybe you could get Spec/Mastery even earlier that way.

There is no XP penalty in the above build. I think that can't happen, and the only way to do that is an extra level of Barbarian. If he doesn't take Ranger he has a dead level anyways, so it may as well give him uncanny dodge. Fighter is a Favoured Class so its not a worry.

The second level of Barbarian eliminates the XP penalty, gives uncanny dodge, skillpoints (Survival is fun when you have track), more, and +1 Bab which is useful for a Deepwarden in a Mithral Chain shirt/Breastplate. (Better touch AC)

Reckless rage will delay All the other feat chains too much, as it must be taken at 9th or 12th. (6th level feat is needed for Pious Templar)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 06-29-07, 07:34 AM	This is the current build Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs) 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper I'm at the 5th level of the build. I was wondering if taken Reckless Rage would be worthwhile? The extra strength would be awesome and my con would go up, raising my AC, then the penalty would cancel out the bonus. Doesn't seem like I lose much more when I rage. Should I take this at 6rh level?
Maesto 06-29-07, 09:06 AM	Depends what your arrmour is... if you have too much con, you'll be limited by your armour. The penalty is two and the bonus is only one, so reckless rage will take you backwards regardless. Still, reckless rage is pretty awesome ;-)
_metz_ 06-29-07, 11:26 AM	This is the current build Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs) 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper I'm at the 5th level of the build. I was wondering if taken Reckless Rage would be worthwhile? The extra strength would be awesome and my con would go up, raising my AC, then the penalty would cancel out the bonus. Doesn't seem like I lose much more when I rage. Should I take this at 6rh level? With that wisdom I would suggest Pious templar. Pity that won't work with the dwarven waraxe. (Need to be LN to have it from Gendwar Angrim, and that means no rage) Level 6 Feat Take Improved Initiative. Then take levels in Occult Slayer. Another option is a massive retrain and change of deity and a switch away from exotic weapon master to take advantageous of pious templar. I would suggest Clandeggin Silverbeard for this. (Battleaxe). The Ranger levels were probably not that great an idea, cos you WANT weapon spec for melee weapon mastery. Some other feat choices could be: Improved Sunder --> Combat Brute.
Jay_Ibero_911 06-29-07, 02:58 PM	That XP penalty must be annoying...but it's hard to get into deepwarden without the ranger levels just for the skills...While it's not the most powerful option, you may want to pick up blind fight and go Dark Hunter to add to the underground warrior theme...
King Kashue 06-29-07, 03:05 PM	With that wisdom I would suggest Pious templar. Pity that won't work with the dwarven waraxe. (Need to be LN to have it from Gendwar Angrim, and that means no rage) You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN.
Jay_Ibero_911 06-29-07, 03:22 PM	You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN. Yes, but you can't be a true neutral divine caster unless your deity is also true neutral.
King Kashue 06-29-07, 04:11 PM	Yes, but you can't be a true neutral divine caster unless your deity is also true neutral. Ah, you're right. Forgot that.
Necrochaos 06-29-07, 07:43 PM	I took two ranger levels for the skill points so I didn't have to cross class. I just hit level 5 (haven't filled out the AR completely). I'll take Fighter 2 instead to keep from an XP penalty. I'll take Endurance as the bonus feat, improved Int at 6 and take Occult Slayer later. Good call I almost did the Pious Templar thing, but my best friend is a cleric of Moridan, so I'm his dopey, muscle brother. I know, crazy me, RP reasons for character choices. Thanks for the advice. I'll ask for more as I level. I also plan to retrain later as I have access to racial substitution (fighter, dwarf) that I plan to use. So I'll retrain out endurance later and take the 3rd ranger level
Jay_Ibero_911 06-29-07, 08:09 PM	I took two ranger levels for the skill points so I didn't have to cross class. I just hit level 5 (haven't filled out the AR completely). I'll take Fighter 2 instead to keep from an XP penalty. I'll take Endurance as the bonus feat, improved Int at 6 and take Occult Slayer later. Good call I almost did the Pious Templar thing, but my best friend is a cleric of Moridan, so I'm his dopey, muscle brother. I know, crazy me, RP reasons for character choices. Thanks for the advice. I'll ask for more as I level. I also plan to retrain later as I have access to racial substitution (fighter, dwarf) that I plan to use. So I'll retrain out endurance later and take the 3rd ranger level Endurance isn't a fighter bonus feat, so you'd either HAVE to take ranger 3 to get endurance or take it at 6th level...postponing deepwarden...
Necrochaos 06-29-07, 08:16 PM	Endurance isn't a fighter bonus feat, so you'd either HAVE to take ranger 3 to get endurance or take it at 6th level...postponing deepwarden... What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level? Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack?
Jay_Ibero_911 06-29-07, 08:33 PM	What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level? Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack? Bingo! Retrain for the win!
_metz_ 06-29-07, 10:16 PM	What do I do? Take the xp hit or wait for six level? Or do I retrain my 1st level feat into endurance and take my bonus feat at 5 as Power attack? That is a MUCH smarter option. Your Stat bumps suggest your starting strength is 18 but you have written it as 20. What actually is your strength? (out of interest). I would suggest a LOT of retraining. Having Wisdom 14 and not taking a class that takes advantage of that is a bit of a waste imho.
_metz_ 06-29-07, 10:17 PM	You can be true Neutral and rage. Both the deities doc and the True Believer feat require you to be within one step of the deity, N is within one step of LN. Can only be LN or LG If you are a Cleric/Favoured Soul/Pious Templar of Gendwar Angrim. (The only Dwarven Deity with Dwarven Waraxe as a favored weapon.) Its unfortunate, I have to change around the whole concept of one of my characters when i found it out.
JamesMaissen 06-29-07, 10:31 PM	2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 My advice is to retrain WF: Dwf Waraxe into WF: Urgosh. Then take flurry of strikes at 8th instead of Uncanny Blow. You can also work on TWF when it suits you to use it. -James
King Kashue 06-29-07, 11:03 PM	Can only be LN or LG If you are a Cleric/Favoured Soul/Pious Templar of Gendwar Angrim. (The only Dwarven Deity with Dwarven Waraxe as a favored weapon.) Its unfortunate, I have to change around the whole concept of one of my characters when i found it out. coughposts 6 & 7cough ;)
Necrochaos 06-29-07, 11:24 PM	That is a MUCH smarter option. Your Stat bumps suggest your starting strength is 18 but you have written it as 20. What actually is your strength? (out of interest). I would suggest a LOT of retraining. Having Wisdom 14 and not taking a class that takes advantage of that is a bit of a waste imho. It is 16, I copied an old build
Necrochaos 06-29-07, 11:28 PM	I didn't realize the build was so bad.
bitznarf 06-30-07, 01:09 AM	I didn't realize the build was so bad. The way you had it built was somewhat above iconic in my opinion, just not fully optimized if that was your target. Nothing wrong with being 'above iconic'.
_metz_ 06-30-07, 02:21 AM	coughposts 6 & 7cough ;) I was explaining that I used to make the same mistake all the time. It actually cost me heavily and if it wasn't for retraining would have had a ruined character. I didn't realize the build was so bad. OK, Wall of text to the face. be prepared. I think it is PERFECTLY savable, and will be actually very good at level 9 still. (before the crunch of APL 10 where you NEED to be good.) Ok, I think that you HAVE to take the 3rd level of Ranger otherwise you will be at least one feat behind the A-Ball. There is a simple yet effective way to get around this problem. That is: Delay Deepwarden by ONE level. Wear Heavy Plate to offset this issue, and suck it up for an extra level. For the character's overall sake. 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 5: Barbarian 2: Retrain WF: D. Waraxe to WF: <Insert some other good weapon, e.g: greatsword> 6: Ranger 3: Endurance, FEAT: True Believer 7. Deepwarden Dwarf: 8. Deepwarden Dwarf: Stonewarden 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, FEAT: Shocktrooper 10: Pious Templar 1: Mettle 11: Pious Templar 2: 12: Pious Templar 3: Weapon Specialisation, FEAT: Melee Weapon Mastery 13: Pious Templar 4: Improved Critical: Greatsword/whatever weapon 14: Fighter 3: 15: Fighter 4: Improved Sunder, FEAT: Combat Brute You lose out on Uncanny Blow, but retain your rage AND get level 2 Pious Templar Spells. Also the lack of Uncanny Dodge is made up for by other abilities. You also get Uncanny Dodge and work (Uncanny dodge would net you another extra 5 or so points of damage, weapon spec, melee weapon mastery and Greatsword instead of Dwarven Waraxe more than makes up for it.) Idea is run around swinging a weapon for two handed Power attack (Animated Shields are fun) and Smack things REALLY hard. Improved Critical on a Greatsword is fun too. I think this build will be completely viable, but I reckon someone will pick a hole in it... Whistles and waits for Mommy to chime in So it may be able to be tuned better.
zoinks69 06-30-07, 12:21 PM	I don't see any major problems there, _metz_. Personal preference would be to skip Shocktrooper, trade it for Brute, or take Reckless Rage + something else, or Reckless and move Pious Templar up -- Melee Weapon Mastery should be a priority IMO. The XP/gold penalty is the only real issue with these builds (as I've got one of my own in the works). The alternative, as already mentioned, is to suck it up and retrain into Endurance (which is WAY better than playing 2 levels with the feat). Maybe Barb 1/Ftr X/Ranger X (for the skill points to get into Deepwarden). More early fighter levels gets you another way into Weapon Spec, not that PT levels are wasted in that regard, but maybe you could get Spec/Mastery even earlier that way.
_metz_ 06-30-07, 01:02 PM	I don't see any major problems there, _metz_. Personal preference would be to skip Shocktrooper, trade it for Brute, or take Reckless Rage + something else, or Reckless and move Pious Templar up -- Melee Weapon Mastery should be a priority IMO. The XP/gold penalty is the only real issue with these builds (as I've got one of my own in the works). The alternative, as already mentioned, is to suck it up and retrain into Endurance (which is WAY better than playing 2 levels with the feat). Maybe Barb 1/Ftr X/Ranger X (for the skill points to get into Deepwarden). More early fighter levels gets you another way into Weapon Spec, not that PT levels are wasted in that regard, but maybe you could get Spec/Mastery even earlier that way. There is no XP penalty in the above build. I think that can't happen, and the only way to do that is an extra level of Barbarian. If he doesn't take Ranger he has a dead level anyways, so it may as well give him uncanny dodge. Fighter is a Favoured Class so its not a worry. The second level of Barbarian eliminates the XP penalty, gives uncanny dodge, skillpoints (Survival is fun when you have track), more, and +1 Bab which is useful for a Deepwarden in a Mithral Chain shirt/Breastplate. (Better touch AC) Reckless rage will delay All the other feat chains too much, as it must be taken at 9th or 12th. (6th level feat is needed for Pious Templar)