Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maesto 10-27-06, 01:18 PM	Hi all, I've been thinking a bit about combining deepwarden, monk, and TWF. The build is basically something along the lines of: Dwarf Str 15 Con 18 Dex 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 6 1. Ranger, Track, Power Attack 2. Ranger, Two weapon fighting 3. Monk, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple, Dodge 4. Monk, +1 Dex, Evasion, Deflect Arrows 5. Ranger, Endurance 6. Fighter, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Urgrosh), Mobility 7. Deepwarden 8. Deepwarden, +1 Str, Con bonus to AC instead of dex, lose all armour 9. Barbarian, Extra rage, Rage 10. Barbarian, Uncanny dodge 11. Exotic Weapon Master, Flurry of blows 12. Fighter, +1 ?, Elusive Target, Titan Fighting I know there's an alignment shift in there somewhere. Basically, the idea is to tank with no armour or shield, relying on con + wis to get the AC up, as well as deflection bonuses, and mage armour if possible. With dodge and titan fighting, the touch AC will be around 26, which is fairly respectable. There will be a LOT of hitpoints, plus rage for even more. I would like to dump dex altogether, but it's needed for dodge. The fun part is to try and stack on as many attacks as possible - two weapon fighting and flurry from EWM will get two bonus attacks. The fun would really kick in if I could get hold of a Lajatang from CW however, because it allows monk flurry too, and so a full attack would be primary, off hand, monk flurry, ewm flurry, iterative, iterative at 12th level, with all except the off hand at 1x strength and 1x power attack. Thoughts? Jolyon, who has just finished drafting his thesis.
Howie23 10-27-06, 06:02 PM	Hi all, I've been thinking a bit about combining deepwarden, monk, and TWF. The build is basically something along the lines of: Dwarf Str 15 Con 18 Dex 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 6 1. Ranger, Track, Power Attack 2. Ranger, Two weapon fighting 3. Monk, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple, Dodge 4. Monk, +1 Dex, Evasion, Deflect Arrows 5. Ranger, Endurance 6. Fighter, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Urgrosh), Mobility 7. Deepwarden 8. Deepwarden, +1 Str, Con bonus to AC instead of dex, lose all armour 9. Barbarian, Extra rage, Rage 10. Barbarian, Uncanny dodge 11. Exotic Weapon Master, Flurry of blows 12. Fighter, +1 ?, Elusive Target, Titan Fighting A couple of quick observations... If you take Str14, you can take Dex 14. Then take bumps at 4 and 8 both in Str and you net an extra plus of Dex without any downside that I can see. I thought you could not take Extra Rage at the same level as Bbn1 due to the order of leveling (you don't get rage until after you make the feat selection). I'm not 100% on that, though. There's something sticking in the back of my mind about a refutation on it, but I haven't been able to find it. You'll have an XP penalty at 9th level. David
Iswald 10-28-06, 02:09 AM	If you take Str14, you can take Dex 14. Then take bumps at 4 and 8 both in Str and you net an extra plus of Dex without any downside that I can see. The downside comes at level 12 when you have an odd strength, or some other stat, and it never reaches an even number again until after can't play the character any more (or rebuild it completely). Also, the character, eventually, uses con for AC so doesn't need dex as much. I thought you could not take Extra Rage at the same level as Bbn1 due to the order of leveling (you don't get rage until after you make the feat selection). I'm not 100% on that, though. There's something sticking in the back of my mind about a refutation on it, but I haven't been able to find it. If you look at the character advancement rules, it lists the feat selection before gaining the class abilities. However, at the start of the feat section, it says that you can take the feat at the level you meet the requirements without considering the order. Longstaff from CV will work with flurries the same as the lajatang, but is more defensive in nature. Stunning fist may be more useful than improved grapple. You can take the stunt from exotic weapon master to stun opponents with your weapon attacks. Plus, the third level of EWM could allow you to trip opponents.
Howie23 10-28-06, 04:09 AM	The downside comes at level 12 when you have an odd strength, or some other stat, and it never reaches an even number again until after can't play the character any more (or rebuild it completely). Also, the character, eventually, uses con for AC so doesn't need dex as much. How is that a downside in comparison to the original build? The original build goes in to 12th level with the same scores as I proposed, but with a 13 Dex instead of 14 Dex. As for eventually getting Deepwarden, how is an extra point of Dex modifier for free (14 instead of 13) a downside, period? That's AC for 8 levels, it's init, it's ability checks, it's reflex saves, it's skills. David
Maesto 10-28-06, 05:56 AM	Point on the strength; I was fairly out of it last night. It's certainly worth putting the extra point into strength first off. I actually like the idea of the longstaff; since fighting defensively is a cheap way to increase (touch!) AC by three, it would certainly make for a fairly strong defensive character. Any idea where to get one? ;-) The point of the build is basically to hammer out a silly number of attacks, but be completely flexible at the same time, being able to drop the sheer number of attacks to get strength*1.5 damage + 2*powerattack if need be. Given that strength will probably end up at 24 while raging, it doesn't make for a half-bad tank either. Pity you can't use tumble while raging =) At the same time, the will save will be fairly good, given that the class is essentially a fighter. I'm a bit stuck on the feats; EWP would need to be squished in there somewhere, and while it would be good to fit in EWM levels to get the stunning fist trick and the trip trick, weapon spec would be good to pick up, and a rogue level would also significantly increase damage against sneakattackable critters, simply due to the large number of attacks. Barbarian 2 is in there because eventually, there will be a LOT of AC in "Dex" (con), and losing it all while flatfooted is a significant chunk of armour class, and 1 extra barb is cheaper than 2 extra deepwarden =)
Howie23 10-28-06, 12:54 PM	If you look at the character advancement rules, it lists the feat selection before gaining the class abilities. However, at the start of the feat section, it says that you can take the feat at the level you meet the requirements without considering the order. Ok, this is the passage I was having trouble finding, Thanks. As a point of order, it doesn't say anything about the order. It says, "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." (PH p.87) LGCS states, "When you gain a level you must follow the chart under level advancement on pages 58059 in the PH in the exact order it shows before you play that character again." (LGCS p.14) Here's my concern: the PH passage allows for a feat at the same level as prerequisite, but doesn't suspend the prerequisite. The example given clarifies that skills (taken at step 6) can be used for a feat (step 7), so the example doesn't clarify this situation. The LGCS passage requires strict level up order ("exact"). Call this musing....I'm not convinced one way or the other, but, rather, see it as an issue. I know this conversation has come up before. David
Iswald 10-29-06, 07:09 AM	The original build goes in to 12th level with the same scores as I proposed, but with a 13 Dex instead of 14 Dex. Oh, I see what you're getting at. I'd thought all the stat bumps were going to str but, the first went to dex for dodge, mobility, and elusive target. I'd have to agree then, it'd be better to start with 14 str and dex. Here's my concern: the PH passage allows for a feat at the same level as prerequisite, but doesn't suspend the prerequisite. The example given clarifies that skills (taken at step 6) can be used for a feat (step 7), so the example doesn't clarify this situation. The LGCS passage requires strict level up order ("exact"). The FAQ is just saying that you have to take all of your skills and feats when you go up a level and not postpone the decision until later. It doesn't override the ability to meet the prereq at the same level that you take the feat. I actually like the idea of the longstaff; since fighting defensively is a cheap way to increase (touch!) AC by three, it would certainly make for a fairly strong defensive character. Any idea where to get one? ;-) Your character could join the Standing Army of the Shield Lands. It's not particularly dangerous as they do a lot of standing around, hence the name. If you're trying to use elusive target, it doesn't seem like you want to also use tumble. The suggestion for EWM was for levels 13 - 15, which you didn't list.
Maesto 10-29-06, 07:30 AM	Wouldn't I need to play a shield lands game to join a shield lands meta-org, or do I just need to have shield lands as my home region? Also, isn't access regional, so I wouldn't actually be able to purchase the item unless I manage to get such a game? Otherwise, sounds great. I'm not worried about TU costs; this would only be my 6th character... Cheers, Jolyon
Iswald 10-29-06, 08:04 AM	Wouldn't I need to play a shield lands game to join a shield lands meta-org, or do I just need to have shield lands as my home region? Also, isn't access regional, so I wouldn't actually be able to purchase the item unless I manage to get such a game? Otherwise, sounds great. I'm not worried about TU costs; this would only be my 6th character... You have to be a resident. There's nothing about having to have played Shield Lands mods to join, unless you want to get promoted. You can't show cowardice. You need to spend a couple skill points. There's a TU cost, of course. There doesn't seem to be any requirement to purchase the items when you are in the Shield Lands. You can find the metaorg book in the downloads section of the Shield Lands website (http://www.shieldlands.net/).
Maesto 11-04-06, 08:53 AM	Having thought about it a bit, I've decided that the dex-based feats probably aren't worth it. Dodge, requiring 13 dex (effectively 14), takes 6 points away from stat buys to add 1 AC. If it's distributed back into con and wisdom, we get two extra AC anyway. Mobility isn't used very often at all, and this guy will have a good armourclass anyway. Plus, he should have enough hitpoints to take on the world, and will have the ranks in tumble. AoO's shouldn't be a problem. Titan fighting adds a little bit to AC; a maximum of +4 (ignoring dodge) to one large or larger opponent. I think that having 2 points of AC against every opponent would be a better investment. Elusive target, well, this one would be nice, but it's at the end of a long feat chain of relatively useless feats (in this case). On the other hand, take the following: Dwarf Str 16 Dex 8 Con 17 (+3 bumps) Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 6 1. Ranger, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) 2. Ranger 3. Monk, Exotic Weapon Proficience (Longstaff) 4. Monk 5. Ranger 6. Deepwarden, Power attack 7. Deepwarden 8. Exotic Weapon Master 9. Fighter, Two Weapon Defense, True Believer 10. Pious Templar 11. Pious Templar 12. Barbarian, Extra Rage 13. Pious Templar 14 and 15 are probably Pious Templar, Rogue, or Barbarian, with Weakening Touch or Staggering strike as potential feats. Ok, so the skills aren't great from int 8, and the lack of dex hurts the tumbling a bit. On the AC side of things, a base of 5 con, 3 wisdom, and 1 shield before boosting con and wis and adding in a mage armour yields a rather nice touch AC. Fighting defensively adds 4 to AC (from two weapon defense), and means that the character can't be flanked (longstaff). Attacks have monk flurry, EWM flurry, and TWF on top of the normal attack sequence, with weapon focus and weapon spec for all attacks. The previous versatility is still present. Any deity with favoured weapon: quarterstaff could be chosen, except for one with a LN alignment (for pious templar reasons). Unfortunately, most seem to be either elven gods or human gods of various ethnicities. Otherwise, I'm happy enough to start this one now =) Cheers, Jolyon
JamesMaissen 11-04-06, 05:10 PM	9. Fighter, Two Weapon Defense, True Believer I would pick a different feat than Two Weapon Defense. A feat for 1 shield AC? Doesn't feel like a feat, much less worth taking a level of fighter to get. Worst case drop the barbarian level here now and have 1 rage until 12th and get your Pious Templar levels faster. -James
draxynnic 11-04-06, 07:47 PM	Join the sheep. You know you want to... :P (I think I did read somewhere that dwarves do tend to be the third largest ethnicity in her flock, behind humans and fire creatures.) James does have a certain point about the spending a feat for one point of AC, although sometimes an extra point of AC can be worthwhile, especially if you have a lot to start with. Unfortunately, however TWD also does, technically, require Dex 15 as well as TWF, and I don't think getting TWF through Ranger excempts you from needing to fulfill the full prerequisites to use the feat. On order of levelling - I think I read somewhere that it was basically in order of appearance in the PHB. Attribute bump (if any), class, skills, feats.
Amnarii 11-04-06, 08:33 PM	I see one problem with dropping dex to 8; at least if you are planning on being in the standing army; it has the requirement... "Must be able bodied (Your Con, Dex, STR must not be less then 10 and one of these must be 12 or greater.)" I would drop str to 15 and raise dex to 10. Of course, I'm no great optimizer; but you need dex 10 somehow, and I think STR is the only stat which benefits in any way from odd scores (though how much of a benefit is the carrying capacity increase, really?)...
clannagh 11-04-06, 10:44 PM	I see one problem with dropping dex to 8; at least if you are planning on being in the standing army; it has the requirement... "Must be able bodied (Your Con, Dex, STR must not be less then 10 and one of these must be 12 or greater.)" I would drop str to 15 and raise dex to 10. Of course, I'm no great optimizer; but you need dex 10 somehow, and I think STR is the only stat which benefits in any way from odd scores (though how much of a benefit is the carrying capacity increase, really?)... well con will benefit from an odd score as well if you are getting poisoned and you might always pick up AR access to the right ioun stone at the right time if your luck is in :) Of course the big downside of dex 8 is -1 to initiative, -1 to AC and -1 to reflex saves and skills. Though a lot of the issues with minuses is in fact in peoples heads .. its a linear scale so dropping form +0 AC to -1 AC is no different really from dropping from +2 AC to +1 AC.
clannagh 11-04-06, 10:49 PM	On the AC side of things, a base of 5 con, 3 wisdom, and 1 shield before boosting con and wis and adding in a mage armour yields a rather nice touch AC. Jolyon Do not forget to apply the -1 to AC because of dex 8. (unless deep warden eliminates this .. maybe it does) Also (this may not effect your build) remember you cannot take a PrC until the level AFTER you get the prereq's for it. In other words if you take, for example, a feat at 6 that is a pre-requisite for a PrC you cant take that PrC until 7.
DuctShuiTengu 11-04-06, 11:51 PM	The big problem I see with this build is that unless you decide to start wearing armor that you're not proficient for the early part of your career, your AC will be absolutely horrific until you reach 7th level. Yes, you'll have those two levels of Deepwarden to protect you for almost two thirds of your career, but you have to get through the part of it where you don't first. First level, you're looking at 11 Hitpoints and 13 AC (assuming you get a chain shirt) at best. At third level, you can either drop whatever armor you've been using and let your AC drop to 12 so that you can actually use your Monk class features, or keep the armor and lose out on the abilities. Along the way, magical armor or bracers of armor, along with a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor will help some, but I'll be amazed if you get your AC up to even 15 before 7th level. And with that low of an AC, even with the high constitution score from being a dwarf, the only way I see you surviving to 7th level is if you spend the first 6 levels cowering behind the party wizard and begging him to protect you from the monsters with Power Attack.
draxynnic 11-05-06, 12:00 AM	Deep warden does indeed eliminate this - it lets you use Con for AC instead of Dex. One of these days I'll get around to reading the class and see if I can actually understand the logic behind that...
Amnarii 11-05-06, 12:11 AM	I know nothing of the class, but I could see using con as a form of damage reduction instead of AC - indicating such a strong body that you just shrug off damage. As DR would be so much more and less powerful at the same time (depending upon if it was unbeatable, or weak vs. a specific type of attack), I can see them jumping from that initial concept to simply apply it to AC instead. However, those are just the musings of a madman who knows nothing of the class mentioned...
Maesto 11-05-06, 02:31 AM	Hmm... points taken. I've done a quick calculation on the damage output, and for all but the very lowest of AC's, two weapon fighting is completely suboptimal compared to simply powerattacking for two extra on all of the flurry attacks. Of course, this changes if spikes and fires of purity are _both_ running, but that shouldn't often be the case. This basically means that the second and third ranger levels are only adding skillpoints and endurance, so they might as well be fighter levels (since the third level feat is a fighter feat), gaining an extra feat somewhere along the way. I'm not worried about the 8 dex; +2 gloves are cheap. Does the standing army let you take magical bonuses to meet their requirements, or do you strip naked for the physical examination? ;-) (stats as above) 1. Ranger, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) 2. Fighter, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Longstaff) 3. Fighter, Endurance, Power Attack 4. Monk, +1 Con, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist 5. Monk, Deflect Arrows 6. Deepwarden, Weakening Touch 7. Deepwarden 8. Exotic Weapon Master, Flurry of Blows, +1 Con 9. Barbarian, True Believer 10. Pious Templar 11. Pious Templar 12. Pious Templar, Extra Rage, +1 Con 13. Barbarian 14. Rogue 15. Pious Templar, Staggering Strike, ? This would at least allow the use of heavy armour (read: fullplate) until the second deepwarden level kicks in. Sure, the monk abilities would be ignored until this point, but an AC of 17 and a whole lot of hitpoints would get by. A ring of prot is certainly on the cards for this character, so perhaps 18 or even 19 by sixth level, and if gloves are needed to join the army, then maybe even 20, which isn't so bad when you've got 18 con. No cowardice, remember?! I've also reordered the feats a fair bit, so there's no problems. And yes, Joramy fits this best; a neutral or NG deity works most easily with the alignment change. Thanks for all the input, Jolyon Edit: Ok, so I'm a dill. There's a slight problem with monks not having enough BAB to qualify for Deepwarden at level 6. Shuffle the barbarian level back to 6, deepwarden to 7 and 8, EWM to 9. Hmm. The lack of AC may well proove to be this character's undoing until he hits 8.
Maesto 11-05-06, 02:42 AM	I'm actually really looking forward to roleplaying this. Think: gruff dwarf. Me: "I _really_ want to join the army!" Them: "No, you're not physically fit enough." Me: "But as much as I run, I just can't keep up with dem big peoples!" Them: "We're sorry, but we just can't accept you." Me: "But!" Them: "Thankyou. Next please!" Me: *grumbles* "lousy... rotten... recruitment... officers... I'll show them, I'll be back!" *insert interlude in which adventuring in Ratik occurs* (maybe the barbarian and EWM levels need to swap around at this point, just for roleplay) Me: "I'm back now. See, I'm fit as a fiddle now! I can keep up with them big folks!" Them: "Indeed. Proceed to physical examination room number 1 please, and strip down to your underclothes." Me: "Crap. Umm... I've been cursed by big I and my hands cause necrosis to all they touch, so I have to wear these gloves." *rolls 20 on the bluff check. Gets 18. Hopes they don't have sense motive at all* Them: "Oh, ok then. Leave on your gloves then; we don't want anybody dying around here." Me: *hehehehe* -Two years pass- Me: "So, I wanted to join this standing army thing, and they rejected me at first, so I trained harder and came back and got in. But ever since I've gotten in, all I've ever done is stand around. It sucks! And they say that I'm too thick to get promoted!" *grumbles something about his last speech being thoroughly enjoyed by all... except his superiors* Oh, this could be great =) Cheers all, Jolyon
Iswald 11-05-06, 10:15 AM	I'm not worried about the 8 dex; +2 gloves are cheap. Does the standing army let you take magical bonuses to meet their requirements, or do you strip naked for the physical examination? ;-) Honestly, I have no idea. You'd have to contact the Shield Land's triad. My personal choice is to always make characters that don't depend upon items to meet PrC or feat requirements.