Depeding on spells in Melee [Archive] - Wizards Community

Depeding on spells in Melee [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
myshkingfh
08-01-07, 03:41 PM Has anyone used the Spell Compendium spell Arrowmind as a primary way to operate in melee? It seems to allow one to function in melee with a bow for most purposes. You threaten adjacent squares and do not provoke aoos. Any obvious drawbacks I'm overlooking?

On the other hand, has anyone relied extensively on the spell compendium spell Master's Touch in melee? Someone suggested I train my character out EWP: Spiked Chain and use Master's Touch instead. Master's Touch grants the caster proficiency in any held weapon or shield for minutes per level. I'm really trying to maximize my feats with this impending USS character I have, and would like to have Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster, CWI, Staggering Strike and Weapon Finesse. Dropping EWP:Spiked Chain would really help me achieve that!

On the other other hand, if I dropped Spiked Chain entirely, and used Arrowmind, I could melee with my bow and drop both EWP:SC and Weapon Finesse. But then that wouldn't work with Staggering Strike, right? And would I need the Point Blank Shot tree to fire into melee?
UMiskatonic
08-01-07, 05:10 PM Ok, whoa. One question at a time.

1) I have seen Master's Touch used to great effect, by a fighter/bard. Whirling blade ain't bad either.

2) Arrow Mind is quite good. No reason not to cast it all the time, if you're an archer.

3) Everybody can shoot into melee. Most of us take a -4 penalty when we do. If you shoot a lot, then the point blank/precise/rapid shot chain is absolutely worth it.

4) The primary drawback of these spells is opportunity cost. Basically, if you cast this spell, then there's another spell out there you didn't cast. So, one less ray of enfeeblement, one less color spray, etc.
myshkingfh
08-01-07, 05:50 PM well, would you ever use masters' touch in place of proficiency in your chosen weapon? I see this character being the mobile/flanker melee guy for at least several levels, and most of his spells will be used to improve his performance in that role.

As for arrowmind, if I'm using that to fire arrows in melee, do I take the -4 even though I'm standing right next to my target? I don't see any reason I wouldn't.
Nerax
08-01-07, 05:53 PM Ok, whoa. One question at a time.

2) Arrow Mind is quite good. No reason not to cast it all the time, if you're an archer.

4) The primary drawback of these spells is opportunity cost. Basically, if you cast this spell, then there's another spell out there you didn't cast. So, one less ray of enfeeblement, one less color spray, etc.

If I am not mistaken, Arrowmind is an Immediate action and lasts minutes a level.
myshkingfh
08-01-07, 06:39 PM Yeah, I think that's correct. A lot of those combat benefit divinations are. But if it won't work with staggering strike, I can't see giving up spiked chain for it.
JamesMaissen
08-02-07, 03:36 AM Has anyone used the Spell Compendium spell Arrowmind as a primary way to operate in melee? It seems to allow one to function in melee with a bow for most purposes. You threaten adjacent squares and do not provoke aoos. Any obvious drawbacks I'm overlooking?

On the other hand, has anyone relied extensively on the spell compendium spell Master's Touch in melee?

Okay to using arrowmind to be in melee.. the answer is summarized with one word: Sunder. An archer has problems in melee beyond simply provoking. You trip an archer and they can't fire. You break his fragile bow and he will cry (as possibly will the player controlling him).

Master's Touch is a very nice spell. The downsides are almost entirely with the immediate action that you need to live with it. You can't cast an immediate action when flatfooted for example so Combat Reflexes suffers if you are taking an AOO on that first round. Likewise if you have a good number of quickened spells or items activated by them the immediate action will eat up one of those opportunities. That you could be dispelled is also a minor nuisance.. though could be larger if you don't have another Master's Touch to cast afterwards.

-James
TWG_Prometheus
08-02-07, 04:37 PM You can't cast an immediate action when flatfooted for example so Combat Reflexes suffers if you are taking an AOO on that first round.

You couldn't take that AOO if you're flat-footed anyway.
bitznarf
08-02-07, 04:43 PM You can with Combat Reflexes.
myshkingfh
08-02-07, 07:59 PM You can with Combat Reflexes.

Well, I don't have combat reflexes, but I do have uncanny dodge, so either way it's not a big deal. Is a dedicated spell slot better than a feat? I cast Master's Touch in all melee situations but in return I get, say, staggering strike?

I also have access to a spell - I forget what it's called, but it's NONC - that allows me to transform my melee weapon into any other melee weapon. I expect to use that one a fair amount too. In that case, I could own a weapon I'm proficient it, but transform it into a spiked chain should the need arise. Spiked chain benefits my character greatly because it is a reach finesse weapon.
CdrcJsn
08-02-07, 08:24 PM I used to have Master's Touch on my light infantry build specifically for Spiked Chain. I also used it for comp long bow (only had proficiency in shortbow).

Then I realized that without the feats to back up the weapon (combat reflexes, improved trip) I was better off using a longspear for AoOs, then switch to my main weapon (adamantine longsword) and use Critical Strike or a handful of other swift action spells I had instead. I dropped Master's Touch once I got the chance to redo my 1st level spells.

Spiked Chain isn't just a weapon...it's a lifestyle. If you're gonna be an archer, be an archer. What are you doing in melee in the first place? Guided Shot is what you should be memorizing instead.
Hariman
08-02-07, 09:21 PM Just remember. Arrow mind lets your character THREATEN a square. But threatening with a ranged weapon does nothing because you're not FLANKING.

So no bow sneak attacks from arrow mind.
Jay_Ibero_911
08-02-07, 09:29 PM Just remember. Arrow mind lets your character THREATEN a square. But threatening with a ranged weapon does nothing because you're not FLANKING.

So no bow sneak attacks from arrow mind.

If you are threatening an opponent and an allied character on the opposite side threatens him, then you are capable of flanking. Normally you cant flank with a bow because you don't threaten any squares with it, but with Arrow Mind you do and therefore you can.
myshkingfh
08-03-07, 10:43 AM Jay's reading of the flanking rule was certianly my reading as well.

My character functions in combat as a spiked chain flanker. I was just wondering if Arrowmind would be a better option. Having one magic item that can be either cold iron, adamantine or silver depending on the ammo you use seems to really simplify a lot of stuff.
CdrcJsn
08-03-07, 01:58 PM Just wear spiked armor.
solbergb
08-03-07, 02:34 PM I occasionally used master's touch on my monk12/wiz1 until he got his fighter level, to beef up his attack rolls with his guisarme. I only used it rarely though, my swift action was often consumed by other options (critical strike, flame blade, weapon capsule retainers, cloak of elemental protection,etc)

Arrow mind - my archer racks one slot of that when he expects to be in confined areas where threats could appear from any side (Eg, cities). As a rule though, guided shot is so much better for him that it's not high priority.

The problem with arrow mind is it doesn't make your bow any less vulnerable to disarming or sundering, or you any less vulnerable to tripping, all of which are very good reasons for an archer to stay the heck out of melee even if you've got the AC/hp to tank. It is just too easy to deprive you of your primary offensive mode. Arrow mind is best on low intelligence enemies with lots of reach or enemies that aren't likely to use or be good at tactical feats (eg, finesse fighters who use light weapons...most city rogues/assassins)
JamesMaissen
08-03-07, 08:07 PM If you are threatening an opponent and an allied character on the opposite side threatens him, then you are capable of flanking. Normally you cant flank with a bow because you don't threaten any squares with it, but with Arrow Mind you do and therefore you can.

There's a difference between providing flanking for someone else and benefiting from flanking that someone else is providing you. I have a character that uses a whip so the opposite case applies to him.

Basically with arrowmind you can provide a flank, but so could armor spikes (or a spiked gauntlet even). However you are still making a ranged attack, so there is no benefit for you from those flanking your target.

I think that's what the confusion here was.

-James
Mommy was an Orc
08-03-07, 09:22 PM Master's Touch is useful to take advantage of situational items. My Monk Caster Grappler has this, and there are a variety of useful items to take advantage of:
Scorpion Claws - add +4 to Grapples. While it hasn't quite happened yet, I fully intend to cast Fist of Stone, move towards my opponent putting on Scorpion Claws, then cast Master's Touch. Needs to happen when Combat Reflexes aren't going to be especially useful.

Mancatcher - when fighting medium opponents, useful for Combat Reflexes.

Longstaff - when fighting Rogues, you fight defensively, then they can't flank.

Spiked Chain - for all the obvious reasons

Dwarven Warpike - again, for all the obvious reasons.

But as mentioned, the really big problem with Master's Touch, is that unless you're expecting combat, you won't have it up prior to your 1st initiative, which creates issues with combat reflexes.
CdrcJsn
08-03-07, 09:52 PM A fun use for Master's Touch is wielding improvised weapons without penalty.

Now you can answer to the positive if the judge asks you if you're proficient in wielding a dead pixie.

Alas, never managed to happen during actual play.
control freak
08-03-07, 09:58 PM can you be proficient with roper tenticals....?:eek:
CdrcJsn
08-03-07, 10:00 PM can you be proficient with roper tenticals....?:eek:

Sure, the spell allows you proficiency with whatever you hold in your hands.

Don't expect the judge to let the tentacles retain their strength draining powers though or give you the same reach as a live roper...
control freak
08-03-07, 10:09 PM lol i know i just thought that would be funny to be able to do that, and as a larger question, can you chop off pieces of monsters and use them (im looking at you beholder eye ray:rolleyes: lol but other things like a claw that deals a neg level can you use it to deal a neg level?)
Hariman
08-04-07, 02:57 PM There's a difference between providing flanking for someone else and benefiting from flanking that someone else is providing you. I have a character that uses a whip so the opposite case applies to him.

Basically with arrowmind you can provide a flank, but so could armor spikes (or a spiked gauntlet even). However you are still making a ranged attack, so there is no benefit for you from those flanking your target.

I think that's what the confusion here was.

-James

You are correct. Even threatening, ranged attacks can't benefit from flanking. Now, there are some DMs that DO allow arrow mind to let you flank, but not all. So don't rely on it.

Also, one of the DMs in my area stated that spells give you exactly what they say, nothing more. So, because Arrow Mind doesn't specifically say "you can now flank with your bow", you don't get to flank with your bow.

BUT, now that I know that Arrow Mind is an immediate action, I'll be using it a little more often. Especially combined with Sonic Weapon and Flame Arrow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 03:41 PM	Has anyone used the Spell Compendium spell Arrowmind as a primary way to operate in melee? It seems to allow one to function in melee with a bow for most purposes. You threaten adjacent squares and do not provoke aoos. Any obvious drawbacks I'm overlooking? On the other hand, has anyone relied extensively on the spell compendium spell Master's Touch in melee? Someone suggested I train my character out EWP: Spiked Chain and use Master's Touch instead. Master's Touch grants the caster proficiency in any held weapon or shield for minutes per level. I'm really trying to maximize my feats with this impending USS character I have, and would like to have Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster, CWI, Staggering Strike and Weapon Finesse. Dropping EWP:Spiked Chain would really help me achieve that! On the other other hand, if I dropped Spiked Chain entirely, and used Arrowmind, I could melee with my bow and drop both EWP:SC and Weapon Finesse. But then that wouldn't work with Staggering Strike, right? And would I need the Point Blank Shot tree to fire into melee?
UMiskatonic 08-01-07, 05:10 PM	Ok, whoa. One question at a time. 1) I have seen Master's Touch used to great effect, by a fighter/bard. Whirling blade ain't bad either. 2) Arrow Mind is quite good. No reason not to cast it all the time, if you're an archer. 3) Everybody can shoot into melee. Most of us take a -4 penalty when we do. If you shoot a lot, then the point blank/precise/rapid shot chain is absolutely worth it. 4) The primary drawback of these spells is opportunity cost. Basically, if you cast this spell, then there's another spell out there you didn't cast. So, one less ray of enfeeblement, one less color spray, etc.
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 05:50 PM	well, would you ever use masters' touch in place of proficiency in your chosen weapon? I see this character being the mobile/flanker melee guy for at least several levels, and most of his spells will be used to improve his performance in that role. As for arrowmind, if I'm using that to fire arrows in melee, do I take the -4 even though I'm standing right next to my target? I don't see any reason I wouldn't.
Nerax 08-01-07, 05:53 PM	Ok, whoa. One question at a time. 2) Arrow Mind is quite good. No reason not to cast it all the time, if you're an archer. 4) The primary drawback of these spells is opportunity cost. Basically, if you cast this spell, then there's another spell out there you didn't cast. So, one less ray of enfeeblement, one less color spray, etc. If I am not mistaken, Arrowmind is an Immediate action and lasts minutes a level.
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 06:39 PM	Yeah, I think that's correct. A lot of those combat benefit divinations are. But if it won't work with staggering strike, I can't see giving up spiked chain for it.
JamesMaissen 08-02-07, 03:36 AM	Has anyone used the Spell Compendium spell Arrowmind as a primary way to operate in melee? It seems to allow one to function in melee with a bow for most purposes. You threaten adjacent squares and do not provoke aoos. Any obvious drawbacks I'm overlooking? On the other hand, has anyone relied extensively on the spell compendium spell Master's Touch in melee? Okay to using arrowmind to be in melee.. the answer is summarized with one word: Sunder. An archer has problems in melee beyond simply provoking. You trip an archer and they can't fire. You break his fragile bow and he will cry (as possibly will the player controlling him). Master's Touch is a very nice spell. The downsides are almost entirely with the immediate action that you need to live with it. You can't cast an immediate action when flatfooted for example so Combat Reflexes suffers if you are taking an AOO on that first round. Likewise if you have a good number of quickened spells or items activated by them the immediate action will eat up one of those opportunities. That you could be dispelled is also a minor nuisance.. though could be larger if you don't have another Master's Touch to cast afterwards. -James
TWG_Prometheus 08-02-07, 04:37 PM	You can't cast an immediate action when flatfooted for example so Combat Reflexes suffers if you are taking an AOO on that first round. You couldn't take that AOO if you're flat-footed anyway.
bitznarf 08-02-07, 04:43 PM	You can with Combat Reflexes.
myshkingfh 08-02-07, 07:59 PM	You can with Combat Reflexes. Well, I don't have combat reflexes, but I do have uncanny dodge, so either way it's not a big deal. Is a dedicated spell slot better than a feat? I cast Master's Touch in all melee situations but in return I get, say, staggering strike? I also have access to a spell - I forget what it's called, but it's NONC - that allows me to transform my melee weapon into any other melee weapon. I expect to use that one a fair amount too. In that case, I could own a weapon I'm proficient it, but transform it into a spiked chain should the need arise. Spiked chain benefits my character greatly because it is a reach finesse weapon.
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 08:24 PM	I used to have Master's Touch on my light infantry build specifically for Spiked Chain. I also used it for comp long bow (only had proficiency in shortbow). Then I realized that without the feats to back up the weapon (combat reflexes, improved trip) I was better off using a longspear for AoOs, then switch to my main weapon (adamantine longsword) and use Critical Strike or a handful of other swift action spells I had instead. I dropped Master's Touch once I got the chance to redo my 1st level spells. Spiked Chain isn't just a weapon...it's a lifestyle. If you're gonna be an archer, be an archer. What are you doing in melee in the first place? Guided Shot is what you should be memorizing instead.
Hariman 08-02-07, 09:21 PM	Just remember. Arrow mind lets your character THREATEN a square. But threatening with a ranged weapon does nothing because you're not FLANKING. So no bow sneak attacks from arrow mind.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-02-07, 09:29 PM	Just remember. Arrow mind lets your character THREATEN a square. But threatening with a ranged weapon does nothing because you're not FLANKING. So no bow sneak attacks from arrow mind. If you are threatening an opponent and an allied character on the opposite side threatens him, then you are capable of flanking. Normally you cant flank with a bow because you don't threaten any squares with it, but with Arrow Mind you do and therefore you can.
myshkingfh 08-03-07, 10:43 AM	Jay's reading of the flanking rule was certianly my reading as well. My character functions in combat as a spiked chain flanker. I was just wondering if Arrowmind would be a better option. Having one magic item that can be either cold iron, adamantine or silver depending on the ammo you use seems to really simplify a lot of stuff.
CdrcJsn 08-03-07, 01:58 PM	Just wear spiked armor.
solbergb 08-03-07, 02:34 PM	I occasionally used master's touch on my monk12/wiz1 until he got his fighter level, to beef up his attack rolls with his guisarme. I only used it rarely though, my swift action was often consumed by other options (critical strike, flame blade, weapon capsule retainers, cloak of elemental protection,etc) Arrow mind - my archer racks one slot of that when he expects to be in confined areas where threats could appear from any side (Eg, cities). As a rule though, guided shot is so much better for him that it's not high priority. The problem with arrow mind is it doesn't make your bow any less vulnerable to disarming or sundering, or you any less vulnerable to tripping, all of which are very good reasons for an archer to stay the heck out of melee even if you've got the AC/hp to tank. It is just too easy to deprive you of your primary offensive mode. Arrow mind is best on low intelligence enemies with lots of reach or enemies that aren't likely to use or be good at tactical feats (eg, finesse fighters who use light weapons...most city rogues/assassins)
JamesMaissen 08-03-07, 08:07 PM	If you are threatening an opponent and an allied character on the opposite side threatens him, then you are capable of flanking. Normally you cant flank with a bow because you don't threaten any squares with it, but with Arrow Mind you do and therefore you can. There's a difference between providing flanking for someone else and benefiting from flanking that someone else is providing you. I have a character that uses a whip so the opposite case applies to him. Basically with arrowmind you can provide a flank, but so could armor spikes (or a spiked gauntlet even). However you are still making a ranged attack, so there is no benefit for you from those flanking your target. I think that's what the confusion here was. -James
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-07, 09:22 PM	Master's Touch is useful to take advantage of situational items. My Monk Caster Grappler has this, and there are a variety of useful items to take advantage of: Scorpion Claws - add +4 to Grapples. While it hasn't quite happened yet, I fully intend to cast Fist of Stone, move towards my opponent putting on Scorpion Claws, then cast Master's Touch. Needs to happen when Combat Reflexes aren't going to be especially useful. Mancatcher - when fighting medium opponents, useful for Combat Reflexes. Longstaff - when fighting Rogues, you fight defensively, then they can't flank. Spiked Chain - for all the obvious reasons Dwarven Warpike - again, for all the obvious reasons. But as mentioned, the really big problem with Master's Touch, is that unless you're expecting combat, you won't have it up prior to your 1st initiative, which creates issues with combat reflexes.
CdrcJsn 08-03-07, 09:52 PM	A fun use for Master's Touch is wielding improvised weapons without penalty. Now you can answer to the positive if the judge asks you if you're proficient in wielding a dead pixie. Alas, never managed to happen during actual play.
control freak 08-03-07, 09:58 PM	can you be proficient with roper tenticals....?:eek:
CdrcJsn 08-03-07, 10:00 PM	can you be proficient with roper tenticals....?:eek: Sure, the spell allows you proficiency with whatever you hold in your hands. Don't expect the judge to let the tentacles retain their strength draining powers though or give you the same reach as a live roper...
control freak 08-03-07, 10:09 PM	lol i know i just thought that would be funny to be able to do that, and as a larger question, can you chop off pieces of monsters and use them (im looking at you beholder eye ray:rolleyes: lol but other things like a claw that deals a neg level can you use it to deal a neg level?)
Hariman 08-04-07, 02:57 PM	There's a difference between providing flanking for someone else and benefiting from flanking that someone else is providing you. I have a character that uses a whip so the opposite case applies to him. Basically with arrowmind you can provide a flank, but so could armor spikes (or a spiked gauntlet even). However you are still making a ranged attack, so there is no benefit for you from those flanking your target. I think that's what the confusion here was. -James You are correct. Even threatening, ranged attacks can't benefit from flanking. Now, there are some DMs that DO allow arrow mind to let you flank, but not all. So don't rely on it. Also, one of the DMs in my area stated that spells give you exactly what they say, nothing more. So, because Arrow Mind doesn't specifically say "you can now flank with your bow", you don't get to flank with your bow. BUT, now that I know that Arrow Mind is an immediate action, I'll be using it a little more often. Especially combined with Sonic Weapon and Flame Arrow.