Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 11:56 AM	Do they work with each other? Thanks!
Nightmare Beast 01-10-07, 11:59 AM	No, they don't. It's in the description of the dance.
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 12:27 PM	Thanks, Don't currently have my books, so wasn't sure.
Lord Yod 01-11-07, 01:37 PM	Dervish Dance also doesn't work with Wildrunner's Primal Scream, in case anyone was wondering.
Iswald 01-14-07, 02:07 AM	Dervish Dance also doesn't work with Wildrunner's Primal Scream, in case anyone was wondering. Quite untrue, for those misguided people thinking they don't.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-14-07, 03:53 AM	Yeah, Primal Scream has none of the restrictions that rage does...
Lord Yod 01-15-07, 12:02 AM	Dervish Dance says 'cannot dance while in a rage or frenzy.' Barbarian Rage is self-explanatory. Primal Scream says 'induces a state of feral frenzy.' Also, 'while in this frenzy...' It has nothing to do with the restrictions involved with either rage or primal scream, but instead with the fact that both conditions stop you from dancing. So while I guess you might run into a judge that lets you scream and dance at the same time, I would be surprised. Expect table variation if attempting a build that uses both.
_m_ 01-15-07, 12:08 AM	Dervish Dance says 'cannot dance while in a rage or frenzy.' Barbarian Rage is self-explanatory. Primal Scream says 'induces a state of feral frenzy.' Also, 'while in this frenzy...' It has nothing to do with the restrictions involved with either rage or primal scream, but instead with the fact that both conditions stop you from dancing. So while I guess you might run into a judge that lets you scream and dance at the same time, I would be surprised. Expect table variation if attempting a build that uses both. whichever one of you existed here first should keep the super cheese picture (its a magic card u know), and the other should like... not not that i care much... but its like jay is talking to her/his self. *grin*
Mithreinmaethor 01-15-07, 12:10 AM	Actually I dont think that you scream for the entirety of the duration for the primal scream. Its activate and done the way it reads. So screaming then dancing shouldnt affect one another.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-15-07, 12:23 AM	Dervish Dance says 'cannot dance while in a rage or frenzy.' Barbarian Rage is self-explanatory. Primal Scream says 'induces a state of feral frenzy.' Also, 'while in this frenzy...' It has nothing to do with the restrictions involved with either rage or primal scream, but instead with the fact that both conditions stop you from dancing. So while I guess you might run into a judge that lets you scream and dance at the same time, I would be surprised. Expect table variation if attempting a build that uses both. Wow...that is quite a stretch there. It's obvious that the Dervish Ability is in reference to the Frenzy ability of the Frenzied Beserker from the same book. Whereas the description of primal scream is mostly flavor, and clearly does not carry the same restrictions explicitly stated in the rage and frenzy ability descriptions. So, with the exception of a little snag caused by some flavor text, there's no reason that one couldn't combine Primal Scream and Dervish Dance...that said, there's little reason to actually try to combine it, since you are probbably better off just maxing your dervish levels...
_m_ 01-15-07, 12:44 AM	Wow...that is quite a stretch there. It's obvious that the Dervish Ability is in reference to the Frenzy ability of the Frenzied Beserker from the same book. Whereas the description of primal scream is mostly flavor, and clearly does not carry the same restrictions explicitly stated in the rage and frenzy ability descriptions. So, with the exception of a little snag caused by some flavor text, there's no reason that one couldn't combine Primal Scream and Dervish Dance...that said, there's little reason to actually try to combine it, since you are probbably better off just maxing your dervish levels... i agree about mixing probably not being the way to go, and i agree with the general basis of your argument. however, whilst i think also that the frenzy is probably in reference to the frenzied beserker style frenzy, in d&d, whats OBVIOUS is never going to be taken as a rule. sure, it may seem obvious to you, but someone might think it was completely NOT that way :D so whilst i agree with you in principal, and i think you;re could be right (theres good arguments each way), you'll need a stronger argument than: it's obvious, im affraid.
Lord Yod 01-15-07, 01:27 AM	Wow...that is quite a stretch there. It's obvious that the Dervish Ability is in reference to the Frenzy ability of the Frenzied Beserker from the same book. Whereas the description of primal scream is mostly flavor, and clearly does not carry the same restrictions explicitly stated in the rage and frenzy ability descriptions. So, with the exception of a little snag caused by some flavor text, there's no reason that one couldn't combine Primal Scream and Dervish Dance...that said, there's little reason to actually try to combine it, since you are probbably better off just maxing your dervish levels... I agree, the author was most likely referring to the FB ability. However, the rules text of Primal Scream describes it as a frenzy. Also, the dance doesn't say 'because of the restrictions of rage, you cannot combine it with a dance' or something to that effect; it says 'cannot be combined with rage or frenzy'. So you don't really have any room to argue with a judge who reads it my way. whichever one of you existed here first should keep the super cheese picture (its a magic card u know), and the other should like... not When I joined I picked this avatar 'cause it was the silliest M:tG card ever. A couple years later and now I'm seeing it everywhere!:)
Reska 01-15-07, 01:33 AM	When I joined I picked this avatar 'cause it was the silliest M:tG card ever. A couple years later and now I'm seeing it everywhere!:) Hey....the cheese stands alone, after all...
_m_ 01-15-07, 04:50 PM	Hey....the cheese stands alone, after all... hehe, very nice.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 03:43 AM	I agree, the author was most likely referring to the FB ability. However, the rules text of Primal Scream describes it as a frenzy. Also, the dance doesn't say 'because of the restrictions of rage, you cannot combine it with a dance' or something to that effect; it says 'cannot be combined with rage or frenzy'. So you don't really have any room to argue with a judge who reads it my way. There is plenty of room to argue. Dervish Dance says it cannot be combined with rage of frenzy. Primal Scream is niether, it is Primal Scream. When you combine Dervish Dance and Primal Scream, that's what you are combining. The fact that Primal Scream is described as a primal frenzy has no bearing on whether or not it can be combined with Dervish Dance, because you do not combine Dervish Dance with the description of an ability, you combine Dervish Dance with an ability itself. Wildrunner does not possess any ability named frenzy, but it does have an ability named Primal Scream, which, last time I checked, was not named frenzy, and therefore could (with some bizarre build) be combined with Dervish Dance, because Primal Scream is not frenzy. Also note, that if the Dervish Dance restriction were referring to the general concepts of rage or frenzy, it would have been phrased "cannot be combined with a rage or a frenzy", but instead the restriction lacks the "a's", which implies it is referencing specific abilities. In this case, barring the combination of Primal Scream and Dervish Dance based on the description of it being a "primal frenzy" is no different than trying to bar an occult slayer from using magic items or accepting beneficial spells from party members because according to a description of one ability it says they HATE spellcasters. Just another case of a carelessly placed bit of flavor text creating problems...
_m_ 01-16-07, 06:07 PM	a rage or a frenzy", but instead the restriction lacks the "a's", which implies it is referencing specific abilities. ...rage has an a in it *grin* but that was a good argument. i'd be inclined more toward your side from that one.
ShinAkuma2 01-16-07, 06:17 PM	Hey....the cheese stands alone, after all... The meat, however, has frequent visitors.
Iswald 01-21-07, 03:23 AM	The logic I follow is that the description of dervish is using rage and frenzy as game terms. It simply reminds you that rage and frenzy do not work with perform which is required for dervish dance. There are a large number of feats as well that are based on rage and frenzy. Ie, extra rage/frenzy, instantaneous rage/frenzy, reckless rage, etc; or even the greater rage, mighty rage, greater frenzy, deathless frenzy, or inspire frenzy class abilities; or even the rage spell. All of these options prevent the use of perform and therefor dervish dance. But, you can't combine any of these feats with primal scream, since primal scream doesn't meet the rage/frenzy prereq for them. Nor does primal scream itself preclude the use of perform. There are no game mechanics involved when primal scream says that you go into a frenzy, it's just flavor text.
_m_ 01-22-07, 05:04 PM	The logic I follow is that the description of dervish is using rage and frenzy as game terms. It simply reminds you that rage and frenzy do not work with perform which is required for dervish dance. There are a large number of feats as well that are based on rage and frenzy. Ie, extra rage/frenzy, instantaneous rage/frenzy, reckless rage, etc; or even the greater rage, mighty rage, greater frenzy, deathless frenzy, or inspire frenzy class abilities; or even the rage spell. All of these options prevent the use of perform and therefor dervish dance. But, you can't combine any of these feats with primal scream, since primal scream doesn't meet the rage/frenzy prereq for them. Nor does primal scream itself preclude the use of perform. There are no game mechanics involved when primal scream says that you go into a frenzy, it's just flavor text. i would imagine that you are supposed to be concentrating so hard on dancing and weaving with some measure of skill that were you to rage, youd screw up.
LachlarlanIII 01-22-07, 05:12 PM	The meat, however, has frequent visitors. Two muffins are baking in an oven. One muffin says to the other muffin, ‘It's getting hot in here, huh?' The other muffin says, ‘Aagh! A talking muffin! :D Flavor text from the Laughing Hyena card in the Unhinged set.
_m_ 01-22-07, 05:33 PM	Two muffins are baking in an oven. One muffin says to the other muffin, ‘It's getting hot in here, huh?' The other muffin says, ‘Aagh! A talking muffin! :D Flavor text from the Laughing Hyena card in the Unhinged set. GRRR! its meant to be potatoes!!!