Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 11:58 AM	I've pretty much ironed out my Monk 4/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 9 build and I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about it. Dwarf Monk 4/Fighter 2/Pious Templar of Zuoken 9 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 6 1 Monk: Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk: Combat Reflexes 3 Monk: True Believer 4 Monk: STR +1 5 Fighter: Power Attack 6 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Titan Fighting/Mobility 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar: STR +1 9 Pious Templar: Improved Natural Attack 10 Pious Templar: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 11 Pious Templar 12 Pious Templar: STR +1, Titan Fighting/Elusive Target (Retrain 6th level feat to Mobility) 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar: Titan Fighting (Retrain 12th level feat to Elusive Target) 15 Pious Templar: Crushing Strikes The build spends one round buffing, tossing on Stone Fist/Holy Sword and Earth Hammer. This brings your fists to 4d6 with Improved Natural Attack, and up to 6d6 if you manage to squeeze an enlarge out of your friendly Wizard/Strength Cleric. Oops, I forgot it's more Offensive Variant. STR 14 DEX 15 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 6 1 Monk: Improved Grapple, Two-Weapon Fighting 2 Monk: Combat Reflexes 3 Monk: True Believer 4 Monk: STR +1 5 Fighter: Power Attack 6 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Improved Natural Attack 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar: STR +1 9 Pious Templar: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 10 Pious Templar: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 11 Pious Templar 12 Pious Templar: DEX +1, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar: Two-Weapon Rend 15 Pious Templar: Crushing Strikes This version ends up with 8 Attacks including Boots of Speed(4 Primary. 2 Seconday, 2 Tertiary), heavily abusing Crushing Strikes.
Shandronas 03-08-07, 12:07 PM	I don't believe Improved Natural Attack will effect unarmed strikes.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 12:11 PM	I don't believe Improved Natural Attack will effect unarmed strikes. How so? (devil's advocate here)
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 12:19 PM	Thread Hijack in the first 2 replies :( I'll go ahead and end it right here though! :) "Unarmed Strike At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage. " http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm
Shandronas 03-08-07, 12:23 PM	Don't really think the thread had been hijacked yet. Besides, are we even permitted to take feats from Monster Manual?
Lupo 03-08-07, 12:26 PM	I don't believe Improved Natural Attack will effect unarmed strikes. it does, according to the FAQ, but is it worth it? an additional d6 is "only" +3,5 average damage on the whole - roughly the same as your power attack will do (that i would at least switch with true believer, i would take true believer the latest moment one has to) more combat effectiveness might be gained with other feats. some of the "stunning fists ==> does some nasty things to foes feats" might be a better option. ciao martin m.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 12:27 PM	Don't really think the thread had been hijacked yet. Besides, are we even permitted to take feats from Monster Manual? Yes we are: All base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains from the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, MM) are considered Open unless specifically noted otherwise in this appendix. Nowhere in the closed feats section is Improved Natural Attack listed.
LachlarlanIII 03-08-07, 12:28 PM	Don't really think the thread had been hijacked yet. Besides, are we even permitted to take feats from Monster Manual? Yes. LGCS Page 26: "All base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains from the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, MM) are considered Open unless specifically noted otherwise in this appendix."
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 12:35 PM	it does, according to the FAQ, but is it worth it? an additional d6 is "only" +3,5 average damage on the whole - roughly the same as your power attack will do (that i would at least switch with true believer, i would take true believer the latest moment one has to) more combat effectiveness might be gained with other feats. some of the "stunning fists ==> does some nasty things to foes feats" might be a better option. ciao martin m. I see what you're saying, but I really like the feat. If I manage to get an Enlarge Person, it ends up bumping from 4d6 -> 6d6 which is a huge upgrade. I was thinking about taking some Stunning Fist feats, but with only 4 monk levels I don't think I have enough attempts to rationalize taking them.
DuctShuiTengu 03-09-07, 01:49 AM	Maybe I'm missing something here, but why the repeated retraining to move Titan Fighting to progressively higher feat slots? Wouldn't it be simpler to just leave it as your 6th level feat, take Mobility at 12th and Elusive Target at 14th?
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 09:24 AM	Elusive Target isn't a fighter feat. I know it looks weird but that's the only way I could get it to work out.
DuctShuiTengu 03-10-07, 10:26 AM	Aah. That would explain it.
dkay807 03-11-07, 04:41 PM	I've pretty much ironed out my Monk 4/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 9 build and I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about it. Dwarf Monk 4/Fighter 2/Pious Templar of Zuoken 9 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 6 1 Monk: Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk: Combat Reflexes 3 Monk: True Believer 4 Monk: STR +1 5 Fighter: Power Attack 6 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Titan Fighting/Mobility 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar: STR +1 9 Pious Templar: Improved Natural Attack 10 Pious Templar: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 11 Pious Templar 12 Pious Templar: STR +1, Titan Fighting/Elusive Target (Retrain 6th level feat to Mobility) 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar: Titan Fighting (Retrain 12th level feat to Elusive Target) 15 Pious Templar: Crushing Strikes The build spends one round buffing, tossing on Stone Fist/Holy Sword and Earth Hammer. This brings your fists to 4d6 with Improved Natural Attack, and up to 6d6 if you manage to squeeze an enlarge out of your friendly Wizard/Strength Cleric. I actually came up with a very similar build... when I mean similar, I mean same ability scores and same class levels! Dwarf as well. I actually decided to go a slightly different route, in favor of more style and less strategic feat choices (the character will never be broken anyway). I'm thinking more along the lines of a Dwarven Iron Fist monk... Dwarf Monk 4/Fighter 2/Pious Templar of Zuoken 9 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 6 1 Monk: Stunning Fist, True Believer 2 Monk: Fiery Fist 3 Monk: Extra Stunning 4 Monk: STR +1 5 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Improved Natural Attack 6 Fighter: Power Attack 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar: STR +1 9 Pious Templar: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 10 Pious Templar: Dodge (or Weakening Touch) 11 Pious Templar 12 Pious Templar: STR +1, Titan Fighting (or Flying Kick!) 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar: Combat Casting 15 Sacred Fist: Crushing Strikes The idea here is to actually get my wisdom to a decent point - 18 or 20 at higher levels, and make good use of stunning fist (DC 21 or 22). Maybe even take Ability Focus as a feat and bring it up to DC 23 or 24. It won't work on many things, but it will on others. As you can see, 9th level will be absolutely huge for this character. Additionally, I will have to focus on obtaining a couple pearls of power 3 so that I can cast earth hammer in every combat. At higher levels, I'll carry around a rod of lesser quicken so that I can quicken divine favor or stone fist (access to righteous fury would be nice)! Again, the focus is more on style than on pure viability - this is shown by Fiery Fists. I don't see much use for Combat Reflexes in this build, and I don't want to grapple... that's not the point. Fire Fists will make the lower levels MUCH more entertaining and can add a significant chunk of damage to the 75% of creatures or so that would suffer from fire damage (5d6 in total). I decided 9 Pious Templar is pretty useless, so I chose to go over to Sacred Fist. I weighed the uselessness of Combat Casting against the saving throw bumps from Sacred Fist, the skills and the +1 AC. If I decide to wear mithral fullplate, it no longer becomes worthwhile... Any thoughts on whether it's worth it to wear mithral fullplate and deal with some check penalty and the loss of evasion? Something really amuses me about dealing 4d6 bludgenong + 2d6 holy + 1d6 fire with my fists!
Alpha_Nerd 03-11-07, 05:47 PM	Sacred Fist makes you unable to use any weapons though, which could hinder you if your fists didn't bypass the DR you needed them to.
Timlagor 03-11-07, 05:54 PM	Wouldn't you lose Tumble in medium armour too?
Alpha_Nerd 03-11-07, 05:56 PM	Dwarves never lose Tumble unless you wear Mountain Plate.
Franco Un-American 03-11-07, 08:29 PM	You can't take Melee Weapon Mastery without Weapon Specialization. You need to retool your build.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 09:06 PM	You can't take Melee Weapon Mastery without Weapon Specialization. You need to retool your build. He get's Specialization from 3rd level of Pious Templar...I never realized what an awesome combination Earth Hammer and Stone Fist make...combined with Improved Natural Attack...your fists become a damn wrecking ball...that's pretty cool.
Timlagor 03-11-07, 10:39 PM	Dwarves never lose Tumble unless you wear Mountain Plate. Good point -forgot he was a dwarf
dkay807 03-12-07, 06:15 PM	Sacred Fist makes you unable to use any weapons though, which could hinder you if your fists didn't bypass the DR you needed them to. Good call. Also, I think Mithral Fullplate is the way to go... screw Evasion. I'll have to reconsider my 14th level feat. On the plus side, I'll be cracking Adamantine and Cold Iron DR with ease. Silver will be more of a problem, but with melee weapon mastery bludgeoning and flurry of blows, I'd be decently effective with some silvered monk bludgeoning weapon. Are silver-tipped quarterstaffs still possible in LG? I remember they were floating around in Year 1.
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 06:22 PM	You have to remember though, wearing armor get rid of Flurry of Blows. My character will probably invest in either bracers of armor or a couple Pearls of Power 1 or a Pearl of Power 3.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 06:25 PM	Good call. Also, I think Mithral Fullplate is the way to go... screw Evasion. I'll have to reconsider my 14th level feat. On the plus side, I'll be cracking Adamantine and Cold Iron DR with ease. Silver will be more of a problem, but with melee weapon mastery bludgeoning and flurry of blows, I'd be decently effective with some silvered monk bludgeoning weapon. Are silver-tipped quarterstaffs still possible in LG? I remember they were floating around in Year 1. Also, you'll have bless weapon to bypass good DR...Can try to squeeze in water splitting stone for +4 damage when you can't bypass DR. Maybe in place of Greater TWF in the offense build, as an extra tertiary attack isn't so hot anyway...and the build doesn't even qualify for GTWF without gloves of dex...
magebeast 03-12-07, 06:33 PM	Also, you'll have bless weapon to bypass good DR...Can try to squeeze in water splitting stone for +4 damage when you can't bypass DR. Maybe in place of Greater TWF in the offense build, as an extra tertiary attack isn't so hot anyway...and the build doesn't even qualify for GTWF without gloves of dex... Watter Splitting Stone is hilarious VS things with low dr/-...1/- or 2/- and suddenly a monk is doing *more* damage than they would otherwise!
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 06:42 PM	Also, you'll have bless weapon to bypass good DR...Can try to squeeze in water splitting stone for +4 damage when you can't bypass DR. Maybe in place of Greater TWF in the offense build, as an extra tertiary attack isn't so hot anyway...and the build doesn't even qualify for GTWF without gloves of dex... The thing is, with 7 attacks (8 with haste which you will most likely have at 15th) the Crushing Strikes bonuses starts to add up, making you Tertiary attacks at probably +5 to hit.
dkay807 03-12-07, 06:49 PM	You have to remember though, wearing armor get rid of Flurry of Blows. My character will probably invest in either bracers of armor or a couple Pearls of Power 1 or a Pearl of Power 3. Wow, good point. What's the point of the Pearls of Power 1? Is that a reference to getting the party wizard to cast Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor) on you? Ouch, that makes it tougher... no armor and no shield if you want to use Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Fast Movement, etc. Any thoughts on how to get that AC up a little bit higher? I'm starting to think that Elusive Target is a must-have for this PC... All I've thought of (and let's please limit this to realistic, self-supporting options): High Dex High Wis Bracers of Armor Ring of Protection
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 07:00 PM	The thing is, with 7 attacks (8 with haste which you will most likely have at 15th) the Crushing Strikes bonuses starts to add up, making you Tertiary attacks at probably +5 to hit. Good point. I suppose it's a matter of how often you encounter DR you can't bypass vs. how often that last attack seems to hit.
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 07:40 PM	Wow, good point. What's the point of the Pearls of Power 1? Is that a reference to getting the party wizard to cast Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor) on you? Ouch, that makes it tougher... no armor and no shield if you want to use Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Fast Movement, etc. Any thoughts on how to get that AC up a little bit higher? I'm starting to think that Elusive Target is a must-have for this PC... All I've thought of (and let's please limit this to realistic, self-supporting options): High Dex High Wis Bracers of Armor Ring of Protection Yeah the pearls are for Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor, although I can use em myself if I need to. I've got titan fighting in there to help the AC some, although unless I get reduced it will only work against large or bigger creatures. I guess I could push back Melee Weapon Mastery to 14th in order to push Elusive Target foward to 12th, I'll just have to wait and measure his defensive capabilities against his damage output.