Do you really need a 16+ in your main attribute? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do you really need a 16+ in your main attribute? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
02-08-07, 11:41 AM In LG, with points so precious in a point-buy and the desire to compromise between a roleplay and a roll-play character, is a 16 really needed? Or 15 for that matter?

I'm debating this especially on MAD classes (monks, bards, etc.) The more versatility you have the less impact you have in a given speciality.

In your experience, do you play/run into more toons who are 'focused' or spread out? What your take?
trollbill
02-08-07, 11:59 AM I tend to mix both. My builds are usually 'tooned' to be good at something, but I usually leave enough left over to have some other secondary things I am good at as well. I don't think playing an Uber-specialist in LG is a good thing, even from a power gaming POV.

As far as the need to have a 16, it depends on the build. My Sorcerer started with a 15 CH, but all of his Stat bumps are going into CH. My Half-Orc cleric has an 18 ST but only a 14 WS. But again, all of his stat bumps are going into WS. This is more for being able to gain access to higher level spells later on than it is to increase the number of spells they can cast or their DCs. Sure, I could use a stat bump item, but if you lose it or enter an anti-magic field, you are screwed.
Mommy was an Orc
02-08-07, 12:19 PM In LG, with points so precious in a point-buy and the desire to compromise between a roleplay and a roll-play character, is a 16 really needed? Or 15 for that matter?

I'm debating this especially on MAD classes (monks, bards, etc.) The more versatility you have the less impact you have in a given speciality.

In your experience, do you play/run into more toons who are 'focused' or spread out? What your take?

It depends on the build and what it does. Monks do a lot better with a 16+ Strength because it affects everything they do. Bards don't really need a superhigh Charisma. Mounted Charge builds(aka Paladins) don't really need a stat above 14. Casters that depend on opponents blowing saves want a high attribute.

Etc...
jstorrie
02-08-07, 12:43 PM My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.)

There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once.
Daxen
02-08-07, 03:31 PM My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.)

There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once.

I wouldn't say NO conflict, but it is minimal and usually avoidable. I myself am new to the Living Greyhawk campaign setting but the only thing that I have heard consistantly is the 14 CON. Do you need a 16? I doubt it. Should you have one? On most characters I believe so.
Munkwunk
02-08-07, 04:18 PM 16 in the "main" stat always necessary unless you're playing a caster with DC-based spells. Even barbarians can do well with, say, a 14 STR thanks to feats like Power Attack and the ability to rage, which help them bring up their attack/damage potential. They're not over-the-top, but they'll have ability scores to spread around a bit.

That being said, I personally find it more fun to just load up on one stat and have a character who's extra special in one area, even if he has to be weak in another. If everyone were to walk around with all 14s, nobody would stand out.
Ancillary
02-08-07, 04:41 PM I have 4 LG characters. One started with a 20 str, another with a 20 con, and a third with a 20 Int. I design each of my characters with a primary goal, and make sure that they are as good at that as possible. My Wood elf barbarian was going to be attacking or grappling *every* round possible. So it makes sense to make strength as high as possible.

I believe the only time you should be willing to dilute your focus is if it a non-combat one. For instance, If I was going to build a diplomancer, I would not put an 18 into Cha, since I would need to be relevant in combat as well.

It is tougher with MAD classes (my character without a 20 is a gish). For monk and Paladin I would suggest having a 16 in strength and then being a Half-orc or Wood Elf to make it 18.
_m_
02-08-07, 07:32 PM currently my best build is sitting on a 6/8/18/16/8/15

i dump stat every stat i dont need.

my main is (with items ofc) 8/8/18/25/8/16
Gaelforcwynd
02-09-07, 03:58 AM My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.)

There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once.

I agree, a 16 for a stat that gives you bonus spells is a must for the first 2 bumps, you can skip the 3rd and then go back to the original stat for the final bump. This way you only miss out on a bonus spell for one level (7th for a Cleric). If they RPGA starts running higher level campaigns, you would want to put all the bumps into those bonus spell type stats though, to keep up.

I also would always go for a 14 CON, it's a cheap 2 HP/level.

With other stats though, you have to consider burning 4 points for an extra +1 bonus. Not really worth it in a lot of cases. It's probably only worth having an odd stat if you need it to qualify for a feat. By the time you get to bump it, you will already have missed out on the +1 for a few or many levels.
Gaelforcwynd
02-09-07, 04:02 AM currently my best build is sitting on a 6/8/18/16/8/15

i dump stat every stat i dont need.

my main is (with items ofc) 8/8/18/25/8/16

I like to dump each one I don't need too. For non-turning Cleric builds, I like the 12, 12, 14, 10, 16, 10 combination. I haven't tinkered with any other classes really.

I'm playing my first LG game on Sunday with a Cleric and will probably go with that stat spread.
tvknight415
02-09-07, 01:39 PM I think if you have a spellcaster you'll want to have a 15 to start in your attribute that affects spell level (Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, etc) so you can put in stat boosts to be able to cast spells of a given level w/o stat bumps. After that, I don't think it's really key to go any higher. For fighter types, I'd try and get a 16 in a stat if you are a non-spellcasting type (barbarian or fighter) that doesn't also have cause to have souped up int, wis, or cha. Otherwise, keep it at 14's if you do.

I'm generally of the theory that you shouldn't do a dump stat (6 or 8) unless it's part of the character's concept (a cleric who's spent his entire life in the cloister starts with a strength 8, otherwise keep him at 10). And, certainly not more than one (in certain circumstances, those dumped stats can really turn into a bad inconvenience, especially for tanks with wis 8's when those enchantment spells start to fly).
Gaelforcwynd
02-09-07, 01:45 PM I think if you have a spellcaster you'll want to have a 15 to start in your attribute that affects spell level (Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, etc) so you can put in stat boosts to be able to cast spells of a given level w/o stat bumps. After that, I don't think it's really key to go any higher. For fighter types, I'd try and get a 16 in a stat if you are a non-spellcasting type (barbarian or fighter) that doesn't also have cause to have souped up int, wis, or cha. Otherwise, keep it at 14's if you do.

I'm generally of the theory that you shouldn't do a dump stat (6 or 8) unless it's part of the character's concept (a cleric who's spent his entire life in the cloister starts with a strength 8, otherwise keep him at 10). And, certainly not more than one (in certain circumstances, those dumped stats can really turn into a bad inconvenience, especially for tanks with wis 8's when those enchantment spells start to fly).

You really need to consider the saving throw stats (DEX, CON, WIS) as separate from the others when talking about dump stats. Unless your class offers high base saves in these, you can never really write off DEX, CON and WIS as mere dump stats..
sibyl
02-09-07, 01:58 PM Personally, I think having too many 'dump stats' is worse than not having your 'main stat' be 16+. Especially if it affects your saving throws.

I think the best thing to do is look at the type of character you want to play, and pick the best stats for that, and don't let anyone tell you you *have* to have X stat at a certain value or you "aren't playable". Playability has more to do with how you work together at the table than any one stat. And certain classes - Paladins and Monks are the two that come to mind right away - have so many 'important stats' that being somewhat good at them all is a benefit.

(that being said, I really don't recommend playing 'against type' too much - a low INT Wizard isn't going to be very good at his supposed purpose, after all)
LachlarlanIII
02-09-07, 02:01 PM I normally try to make a character's primary stat a 15 before bumps. If it's a caster class, I'll shoot for 16.

I also despise using level bumps to increase Int. I'm OCD when it comes to making symetric characters and bumping Int screws that all up.

I always build characters as if they were going to be 20th at some point. I always try to have one odd ability at creation (usually the primary score). I always try to get the final level 20 HP to be divisible by 5, and I do the same thing with BAB.

I hate multiclassing with medium BAB classes because of the BAB disparity.

A 10 Wiz/10 Sorc has a +10 BAB. A 10 Rgr/10 Ftr has a +20 BAB. A 10 Clr/10 RSoP has a +14 BAB, and I hate it!

I can't help myself!:weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 02-08-07, 11:41 AM	In LG, with points so precious in a point-buy and the desire to compromise between a roleplay and a roll-play character, is a 16 really needed? Or 15 for that matter? I'm debating this especially on MAD classes (monks, bards, etc.) The more versatility you have the less impact you have in a given speciality. In your experience, do you play/run into more toons who are 'focused' or spread out? What your take?
trollbill 02-08-07, 11:59 AM	I tend to mix both. My builds are usually 'tooned' to be good at something, but I usually leave enough left over to have some other secondary things I am good at as well. I don't think playing an Uber-specialist in LG is a good thing, even from a power gaming POV. As far as the need to have a 16, it depends on the build. My Sorcerer started with a 15 CH, but all of his Stat bumps are going into CH. My Half-Orc cleric has an 18 ST but only a 14 WS. But again, all of his stat bumps are going into WS. This is more for being able to gain access to higher level spells later on than it is to increase the number of spells they can cast or their DCs. Sure, I could use a stat bump item, but if you lose it or enter an anti-magic field, you are screwed.
Mommy was an Orc 02-08-07, 12:19 PM	In LG, with points so precious in a point-buy and the desire to compromise between a roleplay and a roll-play character, is a 16 really needed? Or 15 for that matter? I'm debating this especially on MAD classes (monks, bards, etc.) The more versatility you have the less impact you have in a given speciality. In your experience, do you play/run into more toons who are 'focused' or spread out? What your take? It depends on the build and what it does. Monks do a lot better with a 16+ Strength because it affects everything they do. Bards don't really need a superhigh Charisma. Mounted Charge builds(aka Paladins) don't really need a stat above 14. Casters that depend on opponents blowing saves want a high attribute. Etc...
jstorrie 02-08-07, 12:43 PM	My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.) There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once.
Daxen 02-08-07, 03:31 PM	My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.) There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once. I wouldn't say NO conflict, but it is minimal and usually avoidable. I myself am new to the Living Greyhawk campaign setting but the only thing that I have heard consistantly is the 14 CON. Do you need a 16? I doubt it. Should you have one? On most characters I believe so.
Munkwunk 02-08-07, 04:18 PM	16 in the "main" stat always necessary unless you're playing a caster with DC-based spells. Even barbarians can do well with, say, a 14 STR thanks to feats like Power Attack and the ability to rage, which help them bring up their attack/damage potential. They're not over-the-top, but they'll have ability scores to spread around a bit. That being said, I personally find it more fun to just load up on one stat and have a character who's extra special in one area, even if he has to be weak in another. If everyone were to walk around with all 14s, nobody would stand out.
Ancillary 02-08-07, 04:41 PM	I have 4 LG characters. One started with a 20 str, another with a 20 con, and a third with a 20 Int. I design each of my characters with a primary goal, and make sure that they are as good at that as possible. My Wood elf barbarian was going to be attacking or grappling every round possible. So it makes sense to make strength as high as possible. I believe the only time you should be willing to dilute your focus is if it a non-combat one. For instance, If I was going to build a diplomancer, I would not put an 18 into Cha, since I would need to be relevant in combat as well. It is tougher with MAD classes (my character without a 20 is a gish). For monk and Paladin I would suggest having a 16 in strength and then being a Half-orc or Wood Elf to make it 18.
_m_ 02-08-07, 07:32 PM	currently my best build is sitting on a 6/8/18/16/8/15 i dump stat every stat i dont need. my main is (with items ofc) 8/8/18/25/8/16
Gaelforcwynd 02-09-07, 03:58 AM	My grey elf Bladesinger runs an 18 Int, and my non-mounted paladin a 16 Cha; but my girlfriend's rogue is 14s across the board, and she does very well too. Some characters need focus, some don't. Frankly, I really prefer builds that can be focused around one 16, though (and 14 Con is a matter of habit.) There's really no conflict between roleplayer and 'roll-player,' though. You can do both at once. I agree, a 16 for a stat that gives you bonus spells is a must for the first 2 bumps, you can skip the 3rd and then go back to the original stat for the final bump. This way you only miss out on a bonus spell for one level (7th for a Cleric). If they RPGA starts running higher level campaigns, you would want to put all the bumps into those bonus spell type stats though, to keep up. I also would always go for a 14 CON, it's a cheap 2 HP/level. With other stats though, you have to consider burning 4 points for an extra +1 bonus. Not really worth it in a lot of cases. It's probably only worth having an odd stat if you need it to qualify for a feat. By the time you get to bump it, you will already have missed out on the +1 for a few or many levels.
Gaelforcwynd 02-09-07, 04:02 AM	currently my best build is sitting on a 6/8/18/16/8/15 i dump stat every stat i dont need. my main is (with items ofc) 8/8/18/25/8/16 I like to dump each one I don't need too. For non-turning Cleric builds, I like the 12, 12, 14, 10, 16, 10 combination. I haven't tinkered with any other classes really. I'm playing my first LG game on Sunday with a Cleric and will probably go with that stat spread.
tvknight415 02-09-07, 01:39 PM	I think if you have a spellcaster you'll want to have a 15 to start in your attribute that affects spell level (Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, etc) so you can put in stat boosts to be able to cast spells of a given level w/o stat bumps. After that, I don't think it's really key to go any higher. For fighter types, I'd try and get a 16 in a stat if you are a non-spellcasting type (barbarian or fighter) that doesn't also have cause to have souped up int, wis, or cha. Otherwise, keep it at 14's if you do. I'm generally of the theory that you shouldn't do a dump stat (6 or 8) unless it's part of the character's concept (a cleric who's spent his entire life in the cloister starts with a strength 8, otherwise keep him at 10). And, certainly not more than one (in certain circumstances, those dumped stats can really turn into a bad inconvenience, especially for tanks with wis 8's when those enchantment spells start to fly).
Gaelforcwynd 02-09-07, 01:45 PM	I think if you have a spellcaster you'll want to have a 15 to start in your attribute that affects spell level (Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, etc) so you can put in stat boosts to be able to cast spells of a given level w/o stat bumps. After that, I don't think it's really key to go any higher. For fighter types, I'd try and get a 16 in a stat if you are a non-spellcasting type (barbarian or fighter) that doesn't also have cause to have souped up int, wis, or cha. Otherwise, keep it at 14's if you do. I'm generally of the theory that you shouldn't do a dump stat (6 or 8) unless it's part of the character's concept (a cleric who's spent his entire life in the cloister starts with a strength 8, otherwise keep him at 10). And, certainly not more than one (in certain circumstances, those dumped stats can really turn into a bad inconvenience, especially for tanks with wis 8's when those enchantment spells start to fly). You really need to consider the saving throw stats (DEX, CON, WIS) as separate from the others when talking about dump stats. Unless your class offers high base saves in these, you can never really write off DEX, CON and WIS as mere dump stats..
sibyl 02-09-07, 01:58 PM	Personally, I think having too many 'dump stats' is worse than not having your 'main stat' be 16+. Especially if it affects your saving throws. I think the best thing to do is look at the type of character you want to play, and pick the best stats for that, and don't let anyone tell you you have to have X stat at a certain value or you "aren't playable". Playability has more to do with how you work together at the table than any one stat. And certain classes - Paladins and Monks are the two that come to mind right away - have so many 'important stats' that being somewhat good at them all is a benefit. (that being said, I really don't recommend playing 'against type' too much - a low INT Wizard isn't going to be very good at his supposed purpose, after all)
LachlarlanIII 02-09-07, 02:01 PM	I normally try to make a character's primary stat a 15 before bumps. If it's a caster class, I'll shoot for 16. I also despise using level bumps to increase Int. I'm OCD when it comes to making symetric characters and bumping Int screws that all up. I always build characters as if they were going to be 20th at some point. I always try to have one odd ability at creation (usually the primary score). I always try to get the final level 20 HP to be divisible by 5, and I do the same thing with BAB. I hate multiclassing with medium BAB classes because of the BAB disparity. A 10 Wiz/10 Sorc has a +10 BAB. A 10 Rgr/10 Ftr has a +20 BAB. A 10 Clr/10 RSoP has a +14 BAB, and I hate it! I can't help myself!:weep: