Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wooti 09-25-06, 10:27 AM	I was thinking of making a wizard melee fighter. Sort of similar to a Gish but with full cating levels. I'm not really sure if I can pull this off with LG since several spells and classes aren't allowed. Once you hit 11th you can cast tensors transformation but without wraith's strike I'm very doubtful about making it work. (does Acrane strike still work under tensors transformation?) Can anyone suggest anything helpful? I don't want to lose a casting level, the plan would to be a dwarf with high con for hitpoints but I would also lack feat wehen compared to a fighter (which is made up buff spells to certain amount). So are there any PrC that will help with either of these that are LG legal?
Reylance 09-25-06, 11:27 AM	One of the few ways I can think of this to work is to use Arcane Disciple, choosing a domain with Divine Power, such as War. At 9th level, you'd be able to cast the spell twice (once in a 4th level slot, once in a 5th level slot), and between that full BAB and your polymorphed form, you'd be a decent fighter twice a day. Still, I can't see doing that build without a level of fighter. It's too hard to ignore all the benefits it provides. You'll get a few more hit points, ability to wear armor and use martial weapons, and more importantly it will help you qualify for prestige classes like Spellsword and Eldritch Knight. A Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword1/wizard prestige class X loses only one caster level, but here are the benefits: ::You can wear a suit of mithral chain without arcane spell failure penalties. That armor can be enchanted with Heavy Fortification and enhanced with Magic Vestment from War domain ::Your Fort saves are a lot better. ::You can wield weapons better than the longspear. You'll be fighting in Large forms, so you want the large greatsword or greatclub.
SgtHulka 09-25-06, 03:11 PM	It depends on what you mean by "possible". My dwarf wizard has been occasionally required to be the party meat shield when everyone else was very squishy. At level 7, with an 18 Con and False Life, he has ~60 Hit Points. Greater Mage Armor and Troglodyte form his Armor Class is 22 (that's with no Dex bonus). That's without spending any time buffing (since all the aforementioned spells are long-term). Given a round to buff, he can cast Shield to pop his AC to 26, or Polymorph into a Troll to increase his hit points to 74 with no change in armor class, give him reach, give him rend, and give him tremendous strength. This isn't my character's preferred set of choices -- it's generally better to polymorph the party bdf than himself, for example, and there are better spells for him to memorize than Shield and even False Life. But in a pinch it's "possible". Something I've toyed with is a straight wizard wearing full plate and carrying a heavy shield without proficiency. True Strike does not require a Somatic component, so you can cast it in full armor without penalty, and that would go far to negate the -8 attack penalty (giving you a net +12). You'd only attack every other round (since you'd be casting true strike) so it wouldn't be the most effective means of combat, but it would be funny as h*ll. Still spell only increases the spell level by +1, so it's basically the equivelant of losing two caster levels, one of which you'd lose if you multi-classed as fighter, anyway. Plus there are some decent non-somatic spells at each level except two -- flare, true strike, shout, dimension door, teleport, power words, etc.
Lomiat 09-26-06, 01:23 AM	Short answer: No. I don't think a melee wizard would work, or, at least, not very well. Long answer: It's an interesting and uncommon build for LG (quite far from power-gaming). And I don't think dwarf is necessarily the best race for it, either. I'd say human's the way to go since you'll already be suffering for feats. In the meantime, you'll never be as good a fighter as the fighters who don't need to spend a round buffing themselves before entering melee, nor will you be as proficient a caster as one who simply pursues a more standard use of spells (save-or-die, battlefield control, blaster, etc.), but you will have some advantages over both types. Not many, but some. Here's one possible build that illustrates my points: Human - Transmuter (opposed: enchantment, evocation) Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 - Power Attack, Combat Expertise 3 - Improved Trip 5 - Craft Wondrous Items 6 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) 9 - Arcane Strike 10 - Quicken Spell Str 14 is simply to get Power Attack. This is the main difference between a melee wizard build and a wizard who simply buffs himself from time to time. The Combat Expertise stuff becomes a mind-numbingly simple decision when you consider a wizard needs INT, and the best thing a wizard who wants to enter melee can do is apply a knowledge of tactics to the fight. Specialist wizard because you'll need the slots to buff yourself and because later on you'll want to sacrifice them to Arcane Strike. But it's really the spell selection that's going to vary. Here are some options to consider: 1 - Mage Armor, Shield, Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone, Protection from Evil, True Strike, Critical Strike, Master's Touch 2 - Bladeweave, False Life, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Alter Self, Mirror Image 3 - Haste, Fly, Vampiric Touch, Spectral Weapon, Displacement, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mage Armor 4 - Polymorph, Improved Invisibility, Fireshield, Dimension Door 5 - Nightstalker's Transformation (the rogue version of Tenser's Transformation) 6 - Contingency, Tenser's Transformation Now, the key to actually being able to play a melee wizard in LG (where combats rarely last more than 2 - 3 rounds) is to find a way to be effective in the first round, second at the latest. The swift spells go a long way, as do your Quickened spells later on. Contingency is great once you hit 11th level, as you can set up Contingencies for your melee abilities (if by that level, you're still pursuing the melee wizard mold). My plan with my wizard is sometime to spend my first round casting a Quickened Shield, then Tenser's Transformation and drawing a Sizing Longsword to activate a Contingent Polymorhp (annis hag). With the long-term Heroism, Greater Mage Armor, and Greater Magic Weapon, I'll be able to get up to (at 12th level) 37 AC and +25/20/15 to hit for 2d6+12 all within one round. The advantage the above build would give you is that it would allow you to start to use your weapon two-handed and Power Attack. I don't believe that you can use Arcane Strike and Tenser's Transformation, both, but either one will give you a very high to-hit. And crafting your own Boots of Speed, Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Health, etc. can also be also very nice.
Sieylianna 09-26-06, 07:46 AM	You're probably better off with a warmage, if you are serious about not losing caster levels. Ed
clik_ml 09-26-06, 09:01 AM	You're probably better off with a warmage, if you are serious about not losing caster levels. Ed ... in melee? A warmage? That's a really really bad idea. At least wizards get buffs to compensate with. Warmages get... armor proficiency. That isn't enough to even think about mixing it up in melee. A melee straight up wizard will likely want to use polymorph- it's an all-in-one buff that blows away the transformation spells. In fact, the wizard should steer clear of the tenser's (and nightstalker's) transformation trap. You are likely best off using swift/quickened spells, arcane strike and keeping your options open. At higher APLs you'll have no trouble being a convincing melee-er between polymorph, contingency, limited wish, arcane strike, and possibly divine power via arcane disciple. At low to mid levels it's a lot rougher. You can have the HP, but that's about it, early on. Unless you have a cleric or druid buddy/cohort throwing spikes on your quarterstaff, then wizard weapons are the suck. AC buffs don't last long enough for all day usage at low levels. I'd consider a sorcerer by the by, if you were intent on sticking to the full casting melee concept. More arcane strike slots, more staying power in those single-day mods/specials. And since you are fairly specialized, you don't need to worry too much about having a very limited spell selection. Doesn't mix well with the fighty races however. Wood Elf sorcerer 16/14/14/6/8/15 1)PowAtk 3)CraftWonder 6)ImpTough 9)ArcaneStrike 12)Leadership 15)ArcanePrep Spells of interest 1-CriticalStrike,TrueStrike,MageArmor,Prot VsEvil,EnlargePerson 2-AlterSelf,FalseLife,MirrorImage,Heroics( limited) 3-GMW,GreaterMageArmor,Haste,VampricTouch, DolorousBlow(limited) 4-Polymorph,DimDoor,ImpInvis 5-GreaterBlink 6-Contingency 7-LimitedWish You will be fragile when not polymorphed due to elf HP, but hopefully you can power through that in the lower levels until you hit level 8 with polymorph. As an upside you have longsword and longbow proficiencies. I'm definitely not happy with the wood-elf sorc, but it seems about as a good an option as the other full caster wizard fighties. A single level of fighter really does make a huge difference for the melee wizard theme since it opens up spellsword and eldritch knight. My dwarf wizard gish build on deck goes something like this: Dwarf 14/10/18/16/8/6 bump con twice, int last 1Ftr/1Wiz/1Ftr/3Wiz/1SplSwd/7EK 1-PowAtk,MountedCombat 2-Scribe 3-Rideby,PracticedSpellcaster 6-CraftWonder 8-SpiritedCharge 9-ImpFamiliar[howler] 12-ArcaneStrike 15-undecided (between craft arms, quickenspell, imp tough) I mostly just wanted to work in a howler familiar since I like them... and they make good polymorph targets (and so do winterwolf familiars), that's why there's the spirited charge tree in there. One could easily remove that feat tree for combat expertise and more tactically minded feats to facilitate corking and other options. That's all I have time for now folks, - Erik
Japangirl 09-26-06, 01:24 PM	Look at runesmith from Races of Stone. It's dwarf only, and I'm not sure if it's allowed in LG. But if it is, you lose only one caster level (have to take one level of fighter for armor proficiency) and become able to cast spells in full plate and shield, and also melee because, well, you get decent BAB and wear full plate and a shield!
kenobi65 09-26-06, 03:50 PM	Look at runesmith from Races of Stone. It's dwarf only, and I'm not sure if it's allowed in LG. Nope, it's Restricted.
pwilcox 09-26-06, 04:33 PM	Erm, yeah, kenobi65 beat me to it.
celexter 09-27-06, 02:54 AM	I actually just created a new character yesterday. Trying to make the character enter the Enlightened Fist PrC, using Sor 3/Mon 2 to qualify. Starting out with Sor first, first Mon level latest by level 3 (for Ascetic Mage). Reiji Summersky (tribute to Negi Springfield, if you all read manga or watch anime) Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 Feat Plan: 1. Combat Casting 1. Dodge 3. Ascetic Mage 6. Weapon Finesse 9. Practised Spellcaster Mon 1. Improved Unarmed Strike Mon 1. Stunning Strike Mon 2. Combat Reflexes Other possible Feats Mobility Elusive Target Arcane Strike
Lupo 09-27-06, 03:37 AM	I actually just created a new character yesterday. Trying to make the character enter the Enlightened Fist PrC, using Sor 3/Mon 2 to qualify. Starting out with Sor first, first Mon level latest by level 3 (for Ascetic Mage). Reiji Summersky (tribute to Negi Springfield, if you all read manga or watch anime) Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 Feat Plan: 1. Combat Casting 1. Dodge 3. Ascetic Mage 6. Weapon Finesse 9. Practised Spellcaster Mon 1. Improved Unarmed Strike Mon 1. Stunning Strike Mon 2. Combat Reflexes Other possible Feats Mobility Elusive Target Arcane Strike i would concentrate a little bit more on attack value, you still have to score hits, to get the damage from your spells to the target. so either bring your dex up to 16 and take weapon finesse or boost your strength higher. take the needed points from charisma, you will do totally fine with a starting score of 14 and a cloak of charisma. and also consider to take int down to 10 and boost your constitution to 14 or wisdom to 12. actually enlightened fist is one of the prestige classes, that would make a small race monk playable. as the point isn't raw damage from high strength and weapon size, but just scoring hits to deliver the arcane power. ciao martin m.
celexter 09-27-06, 12:31 PM	i would concentrate a little bit more on attack value, you still have to score hits, to get the damage from your spells to the target. so either bring your dex up to 16 and take weapon finesse or boost your strength higher. take the needed points from charisma, you will do totally fine with a starting score of 14 and a cloak of charisma. and also consider to take int down to 10 and boost your constitution to 14 or wisdom to 12. actually enlightened fist is one of the prestige classes, that would make a small race monk playable. as the point isn't raw damage from high strength and weapon size, but just scoring hits to deliver the arcane power. ciao martin m. You do make sense. But as I said... This character is a tribute to Negi Springfield. So the stats was built around that too... Was wondering if the above build is workable... Since my build effectively will only give my Level 6 spells at Level 16, I won't be needing more points for Cha. All future ability points are likely to go to Dex. And the other stats be reinforced with Magic Items.
Timlagor 09-27-06, 12:37 PM	If I did this [EDIT: OP's plan] it would be all about Touch spells and Arcane Strike (offensively anyway) but there are two big problems: - you'll never be as good as a gish - there aren't enough higher level touch spells.
Lomiat 09-27-06, 01:22 PM	If I did this [EDIT: OP's plan] it would be all about Touch spells and Arcane Strike (offensively anyway) but there are two big problems: - you'll never be as good as a gish - there aren't enough higher level touch spells. I've got a melee Rog/Wiz headed toward Arcane Trickster. He's constantly treading on death's doorstep. He's not the most effective character either, but the build can be fun. At any rate, the wizard tricks I've learned from his time in melee: 1) Hold touch spell charges when possible if it looks like you're about to wander into a combat (chill touch or shocking grasp, for example). You have to try to cut down on prep-rounds in combat. 2) Seek out access to some of the limited touch spells if possible. I've got access to Blade of Pain and Fear and am looking forward to using it; that spell will go a long way toward replacing my character's limited weapon proficiencies as well as his low strength score. Spectral Weapon (core) is just as good so long as your opponents fail their Will saves. 3) Some of the swift spells (bladeweave, for one) have really great thematic contributions to combat; however, they don't last long, and each such spell you memorize is one less combat-shaping or creature-killing spell you can prepare. 4) Learn to boss the other PCs around a little. Offer "incentives" (personalized buffs) to get them to work toward your prefered tactics. You're not a fighter; you're a faux-fighter, and that means you have to approach combats differently than a fighter. Meanwhile, I don't think Arcane Strike works in conjunction with touch spells. I could be wrong, but I thought it allowed you to boost your attacks with a single weapon or your unarmed attacks. As a touch spell counts as armed, but is not a weapon, I don't think it gets the bonus. (Though, of course, I'd love to be corrected; my Trickster would benefit.)
Timlagor 09-27-06, 01:26 PM	You can deliver them with your fist -best to have Improved unarmed strike though.
celexter 09-28-06, 12:37 AM	You can deliver them with your fist -best to have Improved unarmed strike though. I get Improved Unarmed Strike for free (at Mon 1)... In fact, you do need it to enter Enlightened Fist. Lol~ Meanwhile, I don't think Arcane Strike works in conjunction with touch spells. I could be wrong, but I thought it allowed you to boost your attacks with a single weapon or your unarmed attacks. As a touch spell counts as armed, but is not a weapon, I don't think it gets the bonus. Ya. It works with melee, unarmed strikes or natural weapons. But then, Enlightened Fist have Arcane Fist class ability, allowing you to cast AND deliver a touch spell as part of unarmed full attack action (spending one stunning attempt). So it works for Enlightened Fist, I think... For a reminder, my Enlightened Fist is Sor/Mon not Wiz/Mon.
wooti 10-02-06, 10:05 AM	I've decided to go with suggested with Reylance's suggestion of Arcane disciple but I have a few questions about how it works 1) the feat stats that you may only prepare a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level. Can I use a higher level spell slot to prepare a second copy of a lower level domain spell (assuming I'm not also preparing the higher level one). EG if I had the war domain, could I prepare a 2 divine power spells with a 4th and 5th level spell slots. 2) Now assuming I can do the above, what happens if I only have 14 wisdom so can only cast 4th level spells using this system? Can I still use my 5th level slot to prepare the 4th level spell? 3) If I can't, I can prepare it at a higher level with a metamagic level adder, right? If I do this do I need enough wisdom to cast at the new level? 4) Can I use a pearl of power to get back a spell from Arcane disciple to cast it again? 5) If the spell happens to be at the my speciality school can use it as my bonus spell?
Iswald 10-02-06, 10:45 AM	1) the feat stats that you may only prepare a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level. Can I use a higher level spell slot to prepare a second copy of a lower level domain spell (assuming I'm not also preparing the higher level one). EG if I had the war domain, could I prepare a 2 divine power spells with a 4th and 5th level spell slots. You only get one of each domain spell each day, so while you could use a higher level slot to prepare the spell, you'd still only be able to use that particular spell once. These are coming from your normal allotment of spell slots, you don't get an extra domain slot like a cleric (just in case you hadn't noticed). 2) Now assuming I can do the above, what happens if I only have 14 wisdom so can only cast 4th level spells using this system? Can I still use my 5th level slot to prepare the 4th level spell? Yes. 3) If I can't, I can prepare it at a higher level with a metamagic level adder, right? If I do this do I need enough wisdom to cast at the new level? Yes. It's still the same level of spell even if it takes a higher spell slot. Your wisdom doesn't need to be higher. Heighten spell is an exception since it treats the spell as if it were a higher level spell. 4) Can I use a pearl of power to get back a spell from Arcane disciple to cast it again? Probably. Since clerics seem to be able to do this without restriction, most DMs will agree that wizards with arcane disciple can also. A few might say that you can still only use it once a day and can't use a PoP to bring it back. 5) If the spell happens to be at the my speciality school can use it as my bonus spell? I would think so. I can't think of any reason why you couldn't.
wooti 10-06-06, 03:04 AM	Ok I have a couple of builds, will they work? The basic idea for them both is to cast Divine power and master's touch and then attack. Using more swift spells and arcane strike combined with power attack for lots of damage. I would like to specialize in Transmutation but can't work out the schools to lose. I can't lose Evocation because of Divine power and don't want to lose conjuration because of the orbs (and mage armour). But what can I lose? Build 1: At low level I buff others and use magic directly, once I can I cast divine power and if possible polymorph and wade into combat. When I get to high enough level craft several pearls of power level 4 so I can do this more than once a day. Race: Dwarf Stats: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6 1 Wizard: Power attack, Scribe Scroll 2 Wizard 3 Wizard: Arcane disciple (War) 4 Wizard: +1 con 5 Wizard: Craft Wonderous 6 Wizard: Improved toughness 7 Wizard 8 Fatespinner: +1 int 9 Fatespinner: Acrane strike 10 Fatespinner 11 Fatespinner 12 Wizard: Metamagic Quicken, +1 int 13 Wizard 14 Wizard: Wizard feat? 15 Wizard: General feat? Build 2: Like before but better mage but will require polymorph to get into the fray. (not hard to alter this one in a Human) Race: Grey elf Stats: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 8 1 Wizard: Metamagic Quicken, Scribe Scroll 2 Wizard 3 Wizard: Arcane disciple (War) 4 Wizard: +1 Int 5 Wizard: Craft Wonderous 6 Wizard: Improved toughness 7 Geometer 8 Geometer: +1 int 9 Fatespinner: Acrane strike 10 Fatespinner 11 Fatespinner 12 Fatespinner: General Feat?, +1 ? 13 Geometer 14 Geometer 15 Geometer: General feat?
Sieylianna 10-06-06, 08:07 AM	Ok I have a couple of builds, will they work? The basic idea for them both is to cast Divine power and master's touch and then attack. Using more swift spells and arcane strike combined with power attack for lots of damage. I don't think either is going to work well. 1) You are limited to wizard weapons. 2) Pearls of power 4 aren't that common on AR's and IME you'll be close to retirement by the time you see them 3) Don't have my books here, but not sure you have the prerequisites for arcane strike at 9th. 4) you've taken the low level wizard problem of needing to buff for a round or two before combat and extended it to higher levels. The first is superior to the second, but that is not saying much. Ed
Lomiat 10-06-06, 09:11 AM	I don't think either is going to work well. 1) You are limited to wizard weapons. 2) Pearls of power 4 aren't that common on AR's and IME you'll be close to retirement by the time you see them 3) Don't have my books here, but not sure you have the prerequisites for arcane strike at 9th. 4) you've taken the low level wizard problem of needing to buff for a round or two before combat and extended it to higher levels. The first is superior to the second, but that is not saying much. Ed 1) Elf wizards can use longswords and longbows. 2) I agree. 3) Both builds qualify by 9th level. 4) Yep. With build #1, the plan was to cast Divine Power 1st round and Polymorph 2nd. Meanwhile, your party is either defeating the bad guy(s) or getting decimated while you fail to aid them. Quicken spell could help a little, here, but you've put it off until 12th (!!!) level. Also, buffing wizards should really think hard about taking Improved Initiative at low levels. The sooner the buffs come into combat, the more useful they are.
wooti 10-06-06, 11:15 AM	1) Master's touch is a 1st level swift spell making you proficient with any one weapon (for level rounds) 2) They are expensive but can crafted using the caster level +2 rule meaning I can make them at 9th (I also don't have books with me either)? 3) Require 3rd level spells and BAB of +4 (both builds are fine) 4) True, not trying to make the twinkiest character just trying to make something different that works (power attack and quicken can be interchanged but quicken doesn't really become useful until 11th anyway (quicken 2nd level spells)) The first is certainly better than the first as a melee character that doesnt require polymorph but the 2nd is a better general wizard thus can fill that spot in a party fill of fighter types.
Reylance 10-06-06, 11:42 AM	Pearls of Power have a LG caster level prerequisite of (level x 2) + 3, or 11th for a Pearl of Power (4th). It's 13th if you haven't found access.
Sieylianna 10-06-06, 01:07 PM	The first is certainly better than the first as a melee character that doesnt require polymorph but the 2nd is a better general wizard thus can fill that spot in a party fill of fighter types. I think you need to take at least one level of a full BAB class for weapons and hit points. My melee wizard started with a level of barbarian and went into wizard. I'm planning on Eldritch Knight, but I could go straight wizard. The one level of barbarian is about four levels of wizard hit points. Ed
Timlagor 10-10-06, 06:53 AM	Neither of your builds compares favourably to a proper 'gish' build when played as you propose. EG: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch KNigh X Why are you averse to such a build? One thing you don't seem to be considering at all is the difference in HD between Arcane and Melee classes: those HP will matter.
wooti 10-10-06, 10:19 PM	Neither of your builds compares favourably to a proper 'gish' build when played as you propose. EG: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch KNigh X Why are you averse to such a build? There are three reasons, the first and more important is that I'm already playing a traditional gish (in fact the exact build above) in another game and wanted to try something different (not only for myself but to anyone else in LG as far as I’m aware). The second reason is I wanted to loose as little spell casting as possible thus being able to fillful either the role as primary arcane caster or melee hack with almost equal ability. Thirdly this is only currently an theoretical exercise in optimization I already have 3 Living Greyhawk characters, I might use a build like this if I every get around to making a 4th but I currently don’t have any plan to do so (if someone does do something like this I’d love to hear about it). I'm not so sure that is does compare that badly with traditional 'gish' builds, they both are pure casters (but don't suffer too much at being so) at lower levels but at higher levels once quicken and contingency are available I think they might well turn out to be better. One thing you don't seem to be considering at all is the difference in HD between Arcane and Melee classes: those HP will matter. While it is true I will be suffering in hp I'm certainly considering it in fact hps along with a shortage of feats are my chief concerns for the builds. The dwarf build has a starting con of 17 going to 18 at 4th and both have improved toughness at 6th (as soon as I can get it). As I stated the elf will need the polymorph before combat. Combine this with crafting wondrous item means being able to create a +2 (or +4 with lucky access) and con amulet at 8th and +6 con at 10th. The elf version polymorphed into a troll at 9th (about the point where it will start to get into combat) and assuming only a +2 con amulet will have 4+8x3=28hp from dice and 8x9=72 hp from con bonus being a total of 100hp which in my experience is more than most fighters of this level (yes a few have more). The unpolymorphed Dwarf would have 82 hp which is on par with most fighters (16 con 9th straight fighter has 85hp). If I went for the gish build above the characters would have a total of 9hp more at 9th and 1 more each level after (6 for the fighter level, 2 for the spellsword and 1 for each EK) but at the cost of a full level of spells. This not including spells that the gish and my spell casters can cast like false life and divine power which will give temp. hps which will mean both builds will be better than most fighters of the same level. Of cause the hps for the elf are very vulnerable to a dispel magic which is another problem (anyone know any good PrCs, items or feats that make it harder to have your spells dispelled?).