Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToddMorgan 04-23-07, 06:32 PM	Hey everyone, thanks for the great advice for the DD builds. Here is what I am going to do: CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 12 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple (Brass) 10 1. Barbarian - Feats: Power Attack, Cleave 2. Sorcerer - Feat: Familiar (Weasel) 3. Fighter - Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Rage Stat Bump: Str 4. Barbarian - Feat: Uncanny Dodge 5. Fighter - Feat: Great Cleave 6. Dragon Disciple - Feat: Practiced Spellcaster +1 Nat Armor +1 1st level spell 7-15 will be all Dragon Disciple He will start out with a Chain Shirt, access to Mithril will help immensly. The two spells he will know are Shield and Enlarge Person. Weapons: Greataxe, Composite Longbow (+2/+3 Str) and the Warhammer Basically he's just going to be a self-buffing tank. Questions I have are thus: Do the added spells from DD count as spells known, spells per day, or both? Should I take the Multiattack feat at 9th to be able to use my claws better?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-23-07, 07:34 PM	Hey everyone, thanks for the great advice for the DD builds. Here is what I am going to do: CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 12 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple (Brass) 10 1. Barbarian - Feats: Power Attack, Cleave 2. Sorcerer - Feat: Familiar (Weasel) 3. Fighter - Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Rage Stat Bump: Str 4. Barbarian - Feat: Uncanny Dodge 5. Fighter - Feat: Great Cleave 6. Dragon Disciple - Feat: Practiced Spellcaster +1 Nat Armor +1 1st level spell 7-15 will be all Dragon Disciple He will start out with a Chain Shirt, access to Mithril will help immensly. The two spells he will know are Shield and Enlarge Person. Weapons: Greataxe, Composite Longbow (+2/+3 Str) and the Warhammer Basically he's just going to be a self-buffing tank. Questions I have are thus: Do the added spells from DD count as spells known, spells per day, or both? Should I take the Multiattack feat at 9th to be able to use my claws better? The bonus spells from DD are slots, the same as you get from a high casting stat...so you will have oodles of 1st level spell slots...and while your feat selections aren't completely useless, they are certainly far short of optimal. Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, and Practiced Spellcaster are all mediocre. And you definately need 2 more points in CON, dump wis or int if you have to. As far as spell selection, Shield is all right, but for enlarge person you are better off just getting wands now that they are open access, and take critical strike instead.
ToddMorgan 04-24-07, 12:11 AM	Yes but are the spell slots from spells known or spell slots to cast, in the case of the sorcerer
Crazy Boro 04-24-07, 12:24 AM	They are from spells to cast. Bonus Spells: Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast. If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted. Your high ability scores only give you the bonus of spells to cast, not bonus to how many spells known.
jimmy_dowdall 04-24-07, 04:20 AM	Shield is all right, but for enlarge person you are better off just getting wands now that they are open access, and take critical strike instead. is critical strike not closed?
gomeztoo 04-24-07, 07:10 AM	is critical strike not closed? Critical Strike from Complete Adventurer is Open. It's pretty ok because: - it's swift - it doesn't draw AoO - No spellfailure chance in armor Whereas enlarge person takes a full round, draws AoO (for the entire round) and may fail in armor. Note that critical strike (one round only) and shield (1 min/level - well past most combats when cast at lvl 1) are not worth getting Practiced Spellcaster for.
jimmy_dowdall 04-24-07, 10:33 AM	looking at the last lgcs 597 page 33 critical strike is on the closed list although is is open to authors
Reylance 04-24-07, 10:47 AM	Critical Strike from Complete Mage is restricted. IIRC, that is an assassin-only spell. Critical Strike from the Spell Compendium is open.
GorTeX 04-24-07, 11:16 AM	...Whereas enlarge person takes a full round, draws AoO (for the entire round) ... no, it only draws AoO when you start to cast it: From The SRD You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. you may have to make multiple concentration checks if you get damaged, but only provoke at the start.
ToddMorgan 04-24-07, 12:50 PM	All right, that makes sense then. I'll be sure to acquire a Wand of Enlarge, possibly a wand of Shield. If I take Critical Strike, what should my other 1st level spell be? It'd be good if I could cast in armor, then I can buy Medium Armor and add 1 more AC. Then Mithril access will get me Heavy Armor for the Medium armor class later on. Oh, and what feats should I take then?
jimmy_dowdall 04-24-07, 02:24 PM	Critical Strike from Complete Mage is restricted. IIRC, that is an assassin-only spell. Critical Strike from the Spell Compendium is open. it's the same spell it makes no sense that it should be open for some classes and closed for others, spells sometimes change what classes can use them, look at hailof stone in complete arcane it was just wu-jen and war mages and in compendium wizards and sourcerers got it too.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-24-07, 02:33 PM	it's the same spell it makes no sense that it should be open for some classes and closed for others, spells sometimes change what classes can use them, look at hailof stone in complete arcane it was just wu-jen and war mages and in compendium wizards and sourcerers got it too. If you actually LOOK at the spell named Critical Strike in BOTH books, you'll notice they do completely different things. Which is why one is closed and one is open.
gomeztoo 04-24-07, 02:43 PM	no, it only draws AoO when you start to cast it. Sorry, I ment you draw AoO and, during the round, if you are attacked your casting can be disrupted. Note that another name used for two different spells is Master's Touch.
jimmy_dowdall 04-24-07, 03:57 PM	If you actually LOOK at the spell named Critical Strike in BOTH books, you'll notice they do completely different things. Which is why one is closed and one is open. can u post where it states which is legal and which is not, as i took the wizard spell for my rogue/diviner (no prizes for guessing where i'm going with that class combo) and then got told i could not use it.
magebeast 04-24-07, 04:05 PM	can u post where it states which is legal and which is not, as i took the wizard spell for my rogue/diviner (no prizes for guessing where i'm going with that class combo) and then got told i could not use it. That would be the most recent LGCS. One, the Complete Arcane version is in the Closed list of spells. The Spell Compendium version, however, is on the open list.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-24-07, 04:06 PM	can u post where it states which is legal and which is not, as i took the wizard spell for my rogue/diviner (no prizes for guessing where i'm going with that class combo) and then got told i could not use it. Yeah, the LGCS. Under open spells you find Critical Strike (SpC), and under closed spells you find Critical Strike (CM).
ToddMorgan 04-24-07, 04:15 PM	What should my other spell be and what feats should I take?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-24-07, 05:32 PM	What should my other spell be and what feats should I take? Critical Strike and True Strike are handy. As far as other feats, Cleave may be worth hanging onto because as a barb/DD, you will be doing a lot of damage per hit, but as far as other stuff, might want to go for shock trooper, which would require improved bull rush. As far as other stuff...maybe improved toughness,as well as upping your con to 14 to give you some real lasting power. If you want to be silly, you could take Improved Natural Armor over and over again...
Reylance 04-25-07, 10:04 AM	I favor the spells Shield and Critical Strike, which not coincidentally are the spells of my retired dragon disciple. I've found that in most combats, you can easily have a round to buff, then having the enemy approach you to make one attack. The alternative is attacking the first round, and suffering a full attack in return. However, I was doing more of a high AC build in light armor, and made good use of the +4 AC. If you go for shock trooper, you won't care about AC. If you rage in combat, you won't be using swift action spells. For feats, consider reckless rage. Don't count on finding access to a wand of shield. I've never seen one on an AR, and it's not in the DMG.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-25-07, 12:00 PM	I favor the spells Shield and Critical Strike, which not coincidentally are the spells of my retired dragon disciple. I've found that in most combats, you can easily have a round to buff, then having the enemy approach you to make one attack. The alternative is attacking the first round, and suffering a full attack in return. However, I was doing more of a high AC build in light armor, and made good use of the +4 AC. If you go for shock trooper, you won't care about AC. If you rage in combat, you won't be using swift action spells. For feats, consider reckless rage. Don't count on finding access to a wand of shield. I've never seen one on an AR, and it's not in the DMG. Oh yeah...good point on the raging thing...comes up so little I forgot you can't cast while raging...So yeah...different spells may be mroe worthwhile then...perhaps Master's Touch if you want to use an exotic weapon without proficiency...
ToddMorgan 04-25-07, 05:09 PM	Ok revised DD build CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 1. Bar 1 Feats: Power Attack, Extra Rage 2. Sor 1 Familiar (Weasel for +2 Reflex) 3. Ftr 1 Feats: Cleave EWP (Greatbow) 4. Bar 2 5. Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush 6. DD 1 Shock Trooper 9. DD 4 Great Cleave? and then I don't know what other feats to take. spells will be shield and critical strike
Hariman 04-25-07, 08:26 PM	Ok revised DD build CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 1. Bar 1 Feats: Power Attack, Extra Rage 2. Sor 1 Familiar (Weasel for +2 Reflex) 3. Ftr 1 Feats: Cleave EWP (Greatbow) 4. Bar 2 5. Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush 6. DD 1 Shock Trooper 9. DD 4 Great Cleave? and then I don't know what other feats to take. spells will be shield and critical strike You'll lose your ability to cast Critical Strike while in Rage. But the extra rage damage will make up for that. And critical strike will make up for the damage lost from fatigue after rage ends.
Efekjek 04-26-07, 02:00 PM	Ok revised DD build CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 1. Bar 1 Feats: Power Attack, Extra Rage 2. Sor 1 Familiar (Weasel for +2 Reflex) 3. Ftr 1 Feats: Cleave EWP (Greatbow) 4. Bar 2 5. Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush 6. DD 1 Shock Trooper 9. DD 4 Great Cleave? and then I don't know what other feats to take. spells will be shield and critical strike Shock Trooper requires 6 BAB, bud.
ToddMorgan 04-26-07, 03:43 PM	Shock Trooper requires 6 BAB, bud. Then switch around Great Cleave with Shock Trooper
TWG_Prometheus 04-27-07, 09:26 AM	Ok revised DD build CG Human Suel Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 1. Bar 1 Feats: Power Attack, Extra Rage 2. Sor 1 Familiar (Weasel for +2 Reflex) 3. Ftr 1 Feats: Cleave EWP (Greatbow) 4. Bar 2 5. Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush 6. DD 1 Shock Trooper 9. DD 4 Great Cleave? and then I don't know what other feats to take. spells will be shield and critical strike The 14 Dexterity and the Barbarian level + Shock Trooper suggests that we're not talking about a heavy armor guy here. If that's the case, consider Warmage as your casting entry into Dragon Disciple over Sorcerer. Warmage doesn't get some of the interesting bits that Sorcerer does as far as total selection goes, but total selection doesn't matter at all after you've taken your two spells. Warmage also has some utility in terms of Fist of Stone and if you can squeeze 4 ranks of Spellcraft into the build, you can get Practiced Spellcaster. Magic Missiles at 3d4+3 are better than shooting a bow at flying opponents. Using Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp on your bite/claw attacks is also worth consideration. You might not get some of the Sorcerer spells you'd like to have, but you get ALL of the Warmage ones, no questions asked. This is only if you're considering an end armor no heavier than a Mithril Breastplate though. (No ASF with Warmage) Spending one feat on CL 5 first level spells isn't unreasonable, but a second feat to make them work with Mithril Fullplate is just over the bar. I'd probably ditch Great Cleave in either case, as you're unlikely to take down two opponents in a single round AND have another still in melee range, but Cleave is fine. If you go the Warmage route I outlined, I'd drop Great Cleave and the EWP(Greatbow) for Practised Spellcaster and Weapon Focus in your melee weapon of choice (Greataxe)? Improved Toughness or Lightning Reflexes wouldn't be out of place either. Your Reflex Save is eventually going to be your worst after you start progressing Dragon Disciple, so consider switching the second level of Barbarian to Ranger for +Reflex and some actual skill points. Or swap in a Hexblade level (making you CN) for a fire-and-forget curse, an early Will save boost and an eased skill point progression up to Knowledge(Arcana) 8. You could also take a second level in your casting class (Warmage/Sorcerer/Whatever) as that will get you a BAB and more side benefits than Barbarian 2 would. Uncanny Dodge is nice, but I don't see this guy really having the Dexterity to need it.
ToddMorgan 04-27-07, 12:39 PM	the problem with taking a warmage class is that it excludes me from both of the 1st level spells that will help me later on. 3d4+3 MM is crap at APL 8 and up, not to mention the orbs (which are nice early on). plus, a warmage cannot cast from scrolls or wands unless the spells are in their list. the level of sorcerer allows me to have shield and critical strike, both of which are great throughout the progression. with shield, practiced spell caster will allow me to have the spell up for 5 min instead of 1, but that's about the only benefit of that feat. great cleave is indeed iffy. the second level of barbarian is there not purely for uncanny dodge but also for the increased hp. critical strike is verbal only, iirc, with no ASF chance, and shield, well i'll take my risks with that one. i'll look into taking a level of ranger, but again, i'd be losing hp.
TWG_Prometheus 04-27-07, 03:26 PM	Critical Strike is a good Dragon Disciple spell. Shield I'm more iffy on. A lot of it comes down to what kind of armor you plan to be wearing. You can't get to Spellsword with your build, so even a Mithril Chain Shirt will cause you ASF. Also, Shield is only min/level. Hour/level buffs aren't even reliable at CL 1 and I couldn't justify Practiced Spellcaster even for a 5 hour buff. I've played a Sorcerer gish as my main character since I started LG, and the ASF on Shield is a killer. The spell is powerful, and once I got a few minutes of duration per cast, it worked out OK. I wouldn't use the spell if I knew I'd be casting it in combat 90% of the time, however. Consuming a standard action to cast the spell AND missing your ASF check didn't happen much once I got a Mithril Chain Shirt, but it was a killer when it happened - typically I had to either enter melee without the buff or I had to change my strategy for the fight. Don't get me wrong. Shield is a powerful spell, but I don't think it's for you. Shield doesn't pay off well without caster levels backing it up. At caster level 1, you can't consider it any more useful than a round/level buff. You won't get more than ten out of it. Even if you kick that up to 50 rounds with Practised Spellcaster (I wouldn't...not just for that) you'll frequently have to cast it in combat and you incur the same problems. If you stay Sorcerer, I'd take a look at any swift spell as an alternative. You're building a raging draconic barbarian here, and you don't want to waste any actions casting namby pamby spells. Swift Expeditious Retreat for a surprisingly long-range charge would be among my top picks. A reason that I like Warmage for Dragon Disciples such as yours that I didn't mention earlier (I'm starting a similar build, but Fighter 4/Warmage1/DD 10) is that part of the attraction was that Warmage already has a lot of the spells that I would have taken if I was playing as a Sorcerer anyway. Fist of Stone and True Strike were solid picks to begin with. The presence of Shocking Grasp and utility ranged spells like Magic Missile and Lesser Acid Orb for SR constructs were also a selling point. A bit of Edge (14 Int Fighter) and the lack of ASF in a Mithril Breastplate helped seal the deal. Warmage isn't the definitive pick though. I REALLY miss being able to select Swift Expeditious Retreat, and Critical Strike would have been nice to have around. Stick with the Swift spells and maybe True Strike if you're going to stay Sorcerer, though. ------------------------------------- As far as hp loss from taking a Ranger level...if you take it after 1st, you're only losing 2 hp on Barbarian. Track, extra skills (including Spot!) and +1 Fortitude/+2 Reflex saves is a fairly strong package when put next to 2 hp and Uncanny Dodge.
Rerednaw 05-02-07, 12:39 PM	Okay, here's my attempt at a draggy disciple. Rather than a dip in DD I decided to go all the way up. Dwarf Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14(16) Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14 (12) 1 Brb1 Reckless Rage (RoS. -2 AC, +2 Str, +2 Con when raging) 1 - 2 R1 Track (bonus ranger feat). Favored enemy: ??? 3 F1 Power Attack, Combat Reflexes 4 Brd1 Stat boost to str. Retrain 4 skill points into Knowledge Arcana (if needed). 1 point to learn Draconic 5 Brd2 retrain into UMD (if needed) 6 DD1 +1 Nat. Armor. Extra Rage (copper dragon) 7 DD2 +2 Str, claws, bite. 8 DD3 2d8 breath weapon (acid). Stat boost to str. 9 DD4 +2 Str, +2 (total) Nat. Armor. Feat? (multi atk?) 10 DD5 Blindsense 30 feet 11 DD6 +2 Con 12 DD7 4d8 breath weapon, +3 (total) Nat. Armor. Feat? (imp nat atk?) 13 DD8 +2 Int 14 DD9 Wings (fly=ground speed, average) 15 DD10 Blindsense 60 feet, +4 Str, +2 Cha, Immunity charm/sleep, low-light, darkvision 60, energy immunity (acid). Stat boost to str. Improved Flight (average-> good) Feat options at 9 and 12: Multiattack + Improved Natural Attack (buy a wand of enlarge and have a friendly mage buff me) OR weapon focus + improved critical if I decide to stay with a 2H crit puppy weapon. Final stats: 26 Str (32 when raging) 14 Dex 14(16) Con (20 when raging) 12 Int 8 Wis 16(14) Cha Hp 12 + d8 + d10 + 10d12 + 45 = 89 + 45 (con) = 134 Base saves Fort +11, Refl +8, Will +10 (F+14, R+10, W+9 with stats) BAB: 11 Combat routine: Round 1 buff: Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage Round 2: Rage + charge. Suggestions, alterations, modifications? Okay? Way below par?
TWG_Prometheus 05-03-07, 09:28 AM	If you're going to 2-hand fight at all (and why aren't you with a Barbarian build?) then I'd go with the Weapon Focus route. Taking Improved Natural Armor feats is relatively pointless if you're going to trash your own AC by raging anyway...you couldn't even make up for Reckless Rage if you tried. I'm not seeing anything in the build that particularly suggests Combat Reflexes, but maybe you have a plan for it stashed away somewhere. What other bard spells are you going to pick? You're going to have WAY more bardic spells than you have baric music after a bit of Dragon Disciple, so it's not something to brush off. As far as power level, I think the basic rules are: * You're probably not going to dominate the power curve if you go further than Dragon Disciple 4. * You're probably not going to be anywhere near the low end of the power curve with a Barbarian/Dragon Disciple. * End result - You ought to be OK.
Rerednaw 05-03-07, 03:56 PM	If you're going to 2-hand fight at all (and why aren't you with a Barbarian build?) then I'd go with the Weapon Focus route. Taking Improved Natural Armor feats is relatively pointless if you're going to trash your own AC by raging anyway...you couldn't even make up for Reckless Rage if you tried. I'm not seeing anything in the build that particularly suggests Combat Reflexes, but maybe you have a plan for it stashed away somewhere. What other bard spells are you going to pick? You're going to have WAY more bardic spells than you have baric music after a bit of Dragon Disciple, so it's not something to brush off....* You're probably not going to be anywhere near the low end of the power curve with a Barbarian/Dragon Disciple. * End result - You ought to be OK. Okay. I'll try the 2H route. I'm not taking any Improved Natural Armor feats...those are from DD levels. Combat Reflexes is on the list...but not sure what to drop to fit it in. Thanks for the advice.
TWG_Prometheus 05-03-07, 05:02 PM	Ah, I see. Your formatting confused me in regard to the Natural Armor feats.