Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToddMorgan 04-13-07, 02:25 PM	It seems that all the Dragon Disciples I see are fighters, which is good. But I'm going to go pure caster for this one: Half-Elf Warmage 4/ Sorc 1 / DD 1-10 Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 10 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 14 With the ability score bumps that the DD gets, and putting all the bumps in Int (for the Warmages edge) you get an end Str of 22, end Int of 19, end Cha of 16. Also Nat Armor +4, Wings, Breath Weapon, Blindsense, to say nothing of the extra bite and claw attacks. This is one caster that will be hard to get to. As for Armor, Chain Shirt right away, then Mithril Breastplate once access is gotten. The sorcerer spells will be Grease and Shield, which will give me some control and the +4 shield bonus. By second level I will have an AC of 20. Progression will go something like: War 1: What feat? Sor 1: War 2-4: another feat, bump Int, gain an extra Wiz/Sor spell, probably Enlarge DD 1-10: bumping Int and putting spells in Warmage
LachlarlanIII 04-13-07, 02:31 PM	It seems that all the Dragon Disciples I see are fighters, which is good. But I'm going to go pure caster for this one: Half-Elf Warmage 4/ Sorc 1 / DD 1-10 Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 10 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 14 With the ability score bumps that the DD gets, and putting all the bumps in Int (for the Warmages edge) you get an end Str of 22, end Int of 19, end Cha of 16. Also Nat Armor +4, Wings, Breath Weapon, Blindsense, to say nothing of the extra bite and claw attacks. This is one caster that will be hard to get to. As for Armor, Chain Shirt right away, then Mithril Breastplate once access is gotten. The sorcerer spells will be Grease and Shield, which will give me some control and the +4 shield bonus. By second level I will have an AC of 20. Progression will go something like: War 1: What feat? Sor 1: War 2-4: another feat, bump Int, gain an extra Wiz/Sor spell, probably Enlarge DD 1-10: bumping Int and putting spells in Warmage Why not drop Wis to 8 and increase Int to 15. That way you end up with 20 Int at 15th instead of an odd ability score. All three classes give good Will saves, so a -1 penalty isn't all that painful to your saves, and with a 10 Wis, chances are you aren't going to be making Wis-based skill checks very frequently anyway. As for your question about which feat to take, make it Practiced Spellcaster so you can do more damage with your Warmage spells. It won't kick in until 5th level though.
dkay807 04-13-07, 02:33 PM	What are you going to cast that's going to be remotely effective at 15th level as a primary tool? As you don't progress in spellcasting and simply gain bonus 1st and 2nd level spells, I don't see how this could be feasible unless you focus on melee and use the spells to support your melee abilities.
Alpha_Nerd 04-13-07, 02:43 PM	I hope you just misread dragon disciple as bumping caster levels, because it doesn't. It actually just gives you another slot of your highest level spell.
Mommy was an Orc 04-13-07, 02:47 PM	Ugh... That's the kind of build that starts off strong at APL 2, weak at APL 4, and then nosedives into oblivion at APL 8 and beyond. Dragon Disciple is a tank class that has some spellcasting capabilities. Trying to make it into a pure caster won't be pretty. At 10th level, you're going to have a +5 BAB and only be casting 2nd level spells.
ToddMorgan 04-13-07, 05:26 PM	I hope you just misread dragon disciple as bumping caster levels, because it doesn't. It actually just gives you another slot of your highest level spell. I never said that it bumped it. I know it gives you more slots in your highest spell levels. I dunno, maybe a caster DD isn't the best idea, but it's great flavor for something that starts out as a sorc/sorc-like class, them being descended from dragons and all. perhaps a human fighter 4/ sorc 1 with draconic feats would be better? or perhaps warmage 6/sorc 5/dd 4 gives the chance to have some AoE and lots of fluidity. i guess basically what i'm saying is that all the characters i've done are arcane casters, i don't like divine magic (go atheism!) and fighters are too dumb for me :P i only wish the ultimate magus prestige class was open but alas, it's not to be
Mommy was an Orc 04-13-07, 05:36 PM	I dunno, maybe a caster DD isn't the best idea, but it's great flavor for something that starts out as a sorc/sorc-like class, them being descended from dragons and all. If you want to do something like that, I'd be a Sorcerer who takes Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath, Draconic Flight, Draconic Resistance, and Draconic Legacy. It isn't the most optimized route, but you'll be a pure caster who is really into his draconic heritage.
ToddMorgan 04-13-07, 05:39 PM	all right, that sounds good, thanks MWaO. What do you think about the fighter 4/sorc1/DD1-10 idea?
Mommy was an Orc 04-13-07, 06:19 PM	all right, that sounds good, thanks MWaO. What do you think about the fighter 4/sorc1/DD1-10 idea? I think it has a couple of issues: Melee Weapon Mastery requires +8 BAB, which means you won't be able to get it until 12th - which I think is a bit on the long side. You also don't get Know(Arcane) as a class skill except once, which will mean various contortions to qualify. 2 levels of Fighter are great, but I'd look to fill up the other two levels with something along the lines of Paladin, Knight, Hexblade, Barbarian, or Monk.
jstorrie 04-13-07, 06:21 PM	If you want to play a DD that casts a fair number of spells, aim for Bard 8 as your qualifying point; that gives you Inspire Courage +2 and third level spells, of which there are a fair number of good Bard combat buffs, and you can burn the bonus slots on Arcane Strike. I'd probably run with a Devoted Performer for that route, to emphasize Charisma synergy, as you'd get smiting and Divine Might out of it.
dkay807 04-13-07, 07:38 PM	If you want to play a DD that casts a fair number of spells, aim for Bard 8 as your qualifying point; that gives you Inspire Courage +2 and third level spells, of which there are a fair number of good Bard combat buffs, and you can burn the bonus slots on Arcane Strike. I'd probably run with a Devoted Performer for that route, to emphasize Charisma synergy, as you'd get smiting and Divine Might out of it. Great idea but Bard 8/Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple 4 is level 16 and you can't get around going for Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple 4 - they're just too good. You basically have to stop at Bard 7, which still gives you 3rd level spells, but not Inspire Courage +2 (+3 with Inspirational Boost). However, I'm not sure that sacrificing another BAB is worth 3rd level spells (although it opens up room for Arcane Strike, which is fantabulous). I think I'd probably go Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Bard 6/Spellsword 1... hmm... I have a Paladin 4/Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 4 now... maybe I'll do that... ~Dave ~Dave
gomeztoo 04-14-07, 10:13 AM	I know of one pure spellcaster DD, and he's an NPC. My PC's boyfriend is (oe was originally) statted as one. With the stats at the time (may have changed since, mind) Nesalia could kick his behind with her eyes closed while being 5 levels lower. Anyway, a pure caster might work with bard, simply because you get other stuff as well, and some bard skills (Knowledge, Diplomacy, language) are also in the DD build. And please don't go for the 4-level-dip build. It really cheapens DD and you can do much better with another PrClass if you are going dipping. The higher level abilities are pretty cool once you get past level 5 (which is a bit feature-poor as it only gives blindsense).
Mommy was an Orc 04-14-07, 11:00 AM	And please don't go for the 4-level-dip build. It really cheapens DD and you can do much better with another PrClass if you are going dipping. The higher level abilities are pretty cool once you get past level 5 (which is a bit feature-poor as it only gives blindsense). 4 levels of DD are a very strong dip. Dragon Disciple 5-9 are of somewhat questionable value to most DDs - they're heavy/light infantry who end up impacting their ability to hit things. Dragon Disciple 10 is a very good payoff for DD 5-9, but in a campaign where you only go to 15th level...
gomeztoo 04-14-07, 02:31 PM	I'm going to DD 10. And I dare say Nesalia is useful enough. lvl 5-9 gives blind sense, a Con boost, AC increase, an Int boost, wings, and finally dragon apothesis. Include a fair BAB progression, 1d12 hp, and two very useful good saves. That's a pretty good Prestige class. Besides, I see DD as a prestige class that is very much story driven. You are becoming a dragon. That process, with all the things that come with it, makes my PCs story. When she retires, she'll be a full dragon. Ther are few Prestoge classes where there is such a clear goal, and whre every change has so much impact socially.
Mommy was an Orc 04-14-07, 04:26 PM	I'm going to DD 10. And I dare say Nesalia is useful enough. Isn't Nesalia a Barbarian Mutt build with the 1st 4 levels of DD...hard not to be useful with that start. lvl 5-9 gives blind sense, a Con boost, AC increase, an Int boost, wings, and finally dragon apothesis. Include a fair BAB progression, 1d12 hp, and two very useful good saves. That's a pretty good Prestige class. That's actually pretty marginal until 15th level. Is DD 10 a good deal? Sure. Is going through 5 subpar levels worth the pain if you only get to keep DD 10 for 1 level? And most of the things you mention there are either easily duplicated with spells, feats, or are actual problems. BAB - because you take a 2 pt hit to BAB from levels 5-9 and you took likely 1 to get into it in the first place, you won't get your 2nd iterative until 15th. When if you switched out, you'd get it at 13th. Saves - yes, you have two good saves - you also got most of the benefit of those two good saves in the 1st 4 levels. +4/1/4 and then +4/2/3 for the next 6. +9 over 6 levels is the expected benefit of going into a new class with only 1 good save.
gomeztoo 04-15-07, 03:04 PM	Isn't Nesalia a Barbarian Mutt build with the 1st 4 levels of DD...hard not to be useful with that start. She's a Barbarian/cleric mutt build with the first 5 levels of DD. I have already had good use for the blindsense ability. It's pretty useful, even though the 5th level is a rather feature-poor level otherwise. And good saves and hit point reserve hasn't hurt her either. Saved her life vs that critted harm... With the upcoming Con boost, she'll just grow tougher. But Nesalia is a flavor build. As written, I build her so she would become a dragon. It's her story, and she is doing good. I don't take levels for what gives me the most bonuses. I just don't like to build my PC that way. But I figure the levels she takes do make her better.