| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| kkbkbl12-24-07, 10:54 AM | First time posting on the boards for a long time. Newcomer, so bear with me please! I have a Spiked Chain wielding 5th level fighter, and can qualify for Occult Slayer next level, and to take Dragon Disciple I probably have to dip one into Occult Slayer to meet the 8 ranks Knowledge Arcana skill rank requirement. Build is as follows: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8( :( ) cha 8 1 Fighter- EXP Spiked Chain, WF Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise. 2 Fighter- Improved Trip. 3 Fighter- Power Attack. 4 Fighter- Weapon Specialisation. 5 Fighter 6 Occult Slayer- Combat Reflexes. 7 Exotic Weapon Master(Take Flurry) After that I can either take the remaining levels of Occult Slayer, or take 4 levels in DD for 2 +2str bumps and a +2 natural armor bump, good fort and will saves, a bite attack and a crappy breath weapon. Or I can take the 4 remaining levels of Occult Slayer and get all the goodies. I plan to take Barbarian and extra rage at 12. Thoughts? |
| Jay_Ibero_91112-24-07, 11:11 AM | First time posting on the boards for a long time. Newcomer, so bear with me please! I have a Spiked Chain wielding 5th level fighter, and can qualify for Occult Slayer next level, and to take Dragon Disciple I probably have to dip one into Occult Slayer to meet the 8 ranks Knowledge Arcana skill rank requirement. Build is as follows: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8( :( ) cha 8 1 Fighter- EXP Spiked Chain, WF Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise. 2 Fighter- Improved Trip. 3 Fighter- Power Attack. 4 Fighter- Weapon Specialisation. 5 Fighter 6 Occult Slayer- Combat Reflexes. 7 Exotic Weapon Master(Take Flurry) After that I can either take the remaining levels of Occult Slayer, or take 4 levels in DD for 2 +2str bumps and a +2 natural armor bump, good fort and will saves, a bite attack and a crappy breath weapon. Or I can take the 4 remaining levels of Occult Slayer and get all the goodies. I plan to take Barbarian and extra rage at 12. Thoughts? You still need some spontaneous arcane casting class to qualify for dragon disciple...ie: Sorc, Bard, Warmage, Beguiler, or Hexblade as far as base classes go. |
| MwaO12-24-07, 11:15 AM | You still need some spontaneous arcane casting class to qualify for dragon disciple...ie: Sorc, Bard, Warmage, Beguiler, or Hexblade as far as base classes go. Beguiler isn't a bad choice for that - lots of useful skills that are then Dragon Disciple skills - Search, Spot, Listen. |
| bitznarf12-24-07, 11:47 AM | I notice an odd number of Fighter levels (ie. 5). If you are trying to optimize, that is very rarely a good thing. |
| kkbkbl12-24-07, 12:15 PM | While it is true I can take another fighter next level, but I have no real idea what feat to take yet, and I want to get Occult Slayer 5 ASAP, so maybe I can hold back taking it for just abit? |
| MwaO12-24-07, 12:27 PM | While it is true I can take another fighter next level, but I have no real idea what feat to take yet, and I want to get Occult Slayer 5 ASAP, so maybe I can hold back taking it for just abit? Remember, Fighter 6 gives you +1 to all saves and a feat. It is a very nice level. Especially as you don't have Improved Initiative to qualify for Occult Slayer yet... |
| kkbkbl12-24-07, 12:29 PM | Remember, Fighter 6 gives you +1 to all saves and a feat. It is a very nice level. Especially as you don't have Improved Initiative to qualify for Occult Slayer yet... omg I'm such a newb...doh ugh. |
| Koushiro12-24-07, 04:58 PM | I'd say take the 16 strength down to 15 and take your first level as barbarian, then go fighter up towards Exotic Weapon Master. Then you could boost your Wisdom up to 10, which might help a little bit. That way you'll be tougher, moving faster and have a better selection of skills at level 1, and you can still take EWP: Spiked Chain and Improved Initiative. You can still trip with the chain even without the feat as it's designed to be a tripping weapon. You could even rage and trip if you wanted too, doubt much is going to stand up to that at APL 2. You'll have a relatively good command of the battlefield with +6 to initiative, 40 feet of movement and 10 foot reach. Ouch. What kind of human were you planning on being anyway? Suel? Oridian? Renhee? Flan? |
| magebeast12-24-07, 06:24 PM | I'd say take the 16 strength down to 15 and take your first level as barbarian, then go fighter up towards Exotic Weapon Master. Then you could boost your Wisdom up to 10, which might help a little bit. That way you'll be tougher, moving faster and have a better selection of skills at level 1, and you can still take EWP: Spiked Chain and Improved Initiative. You can still trip with the chain even without the feat as it's designed to be a tripping weapon. You could even rage and trip if you wanted too, doubt much is going to stand up to that at APL 2. You'll have a relatively good command of the battlefield with +6 to initiative, 40 feet of movement and 10 foot reach. Ouch. What kind of human were you planning on being anyway? Suel? Oridian? Renhee? Flan? The character is already 5th level. |
| Koushiro12-25-07, 12:35 AM | Eh, just cheat it. Who cares at this point honestly? ((Actually I didn't know you were already 5th level, my apologies. Don't go Dragon Disciple either way at this point as it'll take you well past the end of the campaign to get to be a half dragon.)) |
| _metz_12-25-07, 09:03 PM | Eh, just cheat it. Who cares at this point honestly? ((Actually I didn't know you were already 5th level, my apologies. Don't go Dragon Disciple either way at this point as it'll take you well past the end of the campaign to get to be a half dragon.)) That is not something we want to see on these boards. These boards don't exist to encourage new players to cheat. This board tells players how to fix their character. We DON'T just tell em 'cheat'. Whilst LG is coming to an end, and there are increasing amounts of fudging by many players, telling new players to do cheat on an official RPGA board is just plain stupid. I'm sorry if thats offensive but its the truth. If I was a moderator I'd have kicked you off by now. (metz is guilty as everyone else of having fudged things every now and then, but won't tell a new player to cheat on these boards!) |
| Reylance12-26-07, 01:36 AM | I'd say Occult Slayer is the best choice, giving the most power going forward. You are stuck needing to take Ftr6 first, and then I'd suggest getting EWM, then take five levels of Occult Slayer. |
| kkbkbl12-26-07, 04:20 AM | I'd say Occult Slayer is the best choice, giving the most power going forward. You are stuck needing to take Ftr6 first, and then I'd suggest getting EWM, then take five levels of Occult Slayer. Heh that's what I thought too, thanks for supporting! How about some advice on item purchase? I just blew everything I've saved so far on a Animated Heavy Shield +1, Should I focus on AC? Str Bumps or Con bumps? Are items like Cloak of Resistance(they stack with occult slayer bonus right?) worth purchasing? |
| paigeoliver12-26-07, 08:47 AM | Dragon Disciple is almost never the correct choice if you are trying to do, well anything. It is easily one of the worst prestige classes around. It isn't good for fighting because the four points of strength it gives you early on suck at least 2 BAB out of the character, it isn't good for casting since it doesn't properly advance casting, it isn't even particularly good for gishes since almost any other gish prestige class is superior. The breath weapon is so weak as to be meaningless. A 2d8 (save for half) attack on a 10th level character is laughable. The secondary claw attacks are not likely to hit on a LOW BAB character like a dragon disciple unless the character is built around them, and there are better ways to do that. There is a bit of a payoff if you actually ride this terrible class out for all 10 levels, but even turning into the half dragon isn't that hot (you will have gained 8 points of strength at the cost of at least 4 base attack bonus, congrats) The class is basically a trap There are ways to build gish characters or dragon flavored characters that aren't absolutely terrible, but dragon disciple isn't one of them. |
| kkbkbl12-26-07, 08:53 AM | Dragon Disciple is almost never the correct choice if you are trying to do, well anything. It is easily one of the worst prestige classes around. It isn't good for fighting because the four points of strength it gives you early on suck at least 2 BAB out of the character, it isn't good for casting since it doesn't properly advance casting, it isn't even particularly good for gishes since almost any other gish prestige class is superior. The breath weapon is so weak as to be meaningless. A 2d8 (save for half) attack on a 10th level character is laughable. The secondary claw attacks are not likely to hit on a LOW BAB character like a dragon disciple unless the character is built around them, and there are better ways to do that. There is a bit of a payoff if you actually ride this terrible class out for all 10 levels, but even turning into the half dragon isn't that hot (you will have gained 8 points of strength at the cost of at least 4 base attack bonus, congrats) The class is basically a trap There are ways to build gish characters or dragon flavored characters that aren't absolutely terrible, but dragon disciple isn't one of them. Sorry noob question here, but where do you lose 2 bab? DDs are cleric BAB iirc, so I should only lose 1 BAB per 4 levels, isn't that right? |
| MwaO12-26-07, 10:41 AM | There is a bit of a payoff if you actually ride this terrible class out for all 10 levels, but even turning into the half dragon isn't that hot (you will have gained 8 points of strength at the cost of at least 4 base attack bonus, congrats) The class is basically a trap There are ways to build gish characters or dragon flavored characters that aren't absolutely terrible, but dragon disciple isn't one of them. This is actually the exact opposite of what I think of the class. 4 levels is an extremely strong decision - you get an extra attack, good hit die, really good skill list - especially with Beguiler, 4 levels of Dragon Disciple means you can fill the trapfinding slot without making a big sacrifice to pick up Search skill again and you have the skill points to take advantage of DD. The other choices aren't bad either - Blades of Flame or Critical Strike are both effective spells for Sorcerer and will make up for the BAB loss in many ways. 10 levels is just horrible in every way - almost by definition, you end up sacrificing your 2nd iterative for the bite(unless your entry is 4 levels of Hexblade at which point you can't get MWM) |
| Jay_Ibero_91112-26-07, 11:35 AM | This is actually the exact opposite of what I think of the class. 4 levels is an extremely strong decision - you get an extra attack, good hit die, really good skill list - especially with Beguiler, 4 levels of Dragon Disciple means you can fill the trapfinding slot without making a big sacrifice to pick up Search skill again and you have the skill points to take advantage of DD. The other choices aren't bad either - Blades of Flame or Critical Strike are both effective spells for Sorcerer and will make up for the BAB loss in many ways. 10 levels is just horrible in every way - almost by definition, you end up sacrificing your 2nd iterative for the bite(unless your entry is 4 levels of Hexblade at which point you can't get MWM) I've got a friend with a Gnome Copper DD 10 right now. He's got 11 bab total, so he's got the same number of iteratives as everyone else, plus he's got the bite. He's also got ~230 hp in a rage, with AC in the mid/high 20's, and dishes out plenty of damage. Don't diss DD 10 until you've seen one in action in LG... |
| TWG_Prometheus12-26-07, 01:11 PM | I have a Fighter/Warmage Dragon Disciple that I'm still playing. It's not a horrible class at all. I've enjoyed the Warmage entry path so far, using it for things like Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile after I picked up Practised Spellcaster(Warmage) at 6th level. It did force a move down to a Mithral Breastplate from his prior fullplate armor so that I could use , but it's been a good trade I think. I even snagged a set of Arcanist's Gloves, and use them to boost his Magic Missiles or Lesser Orbs to four dice of damage twice a day. I've even gotten a bit of use out of Burning Hands now and then. (Good vs swarms!) I was planning ealier to take the character to Dragon Disciple 10, but not because it was the best decision I could make. It's mildly to moderately suboptimal for a significant number of levels, but I wanted to do it for RP reasons. Assuming I can even get to 10th level with the end of the campaign approaching (where I'll have to choose between Dragon Disciple 5 or something else) I'm not really sure what I'll take, now. DD 5 isn't off the list, but knowing that I can't get to 10 anymore cuts out a lot of the incentive. Side note: I don't think it's totally impossible to get them to 15 anymore, but another character is taking my high-level play slots. |
| jstorrie12-26-07, 05:03 PM | Dragon Disciple isn't something you just throw on to the end of a fighter build–you need to plan ahead to meet the prerequisites properly or it won't pay off. Something like Ranger 2 / Fighter 4 / Trapsmith 4 / Spellsword 1 / Dragon Disciple 4, that works very well. But just tacking on a Beguiler level and going into DD won't, here. And you don't have the space in your build or the Charisma to go Bard-Dragon Disciple-War Chanter. So stick to the more appropriate prestige classes like Exotic Weapon Master and Occult Slayer, yeah. A Barbarian level plus Extra Rage is a fair idea, too. And as pointed out above, if you've gone as far as Fighter 5, go to Fighter 6–though maybe take a Barbarian level at character level 6 so your bonus feat can go to Extra Rage, first. |
| JamesMaissen12-26-07, 05:15 PM | I've got a friend with a Gnome Copper DD 10 right now. He's got 11 bab total, so he's got the same number of iteratives as everyone else, plus he's got the bite. He's also got ~230 hp in a rage, with AC in the mid/high 20's, and dishes out plenty of damage. Don't diss DD 10 until you've seen one in action in LG... So he's a 15th level character and JUST got his 2nd iterative attack? And this is a good thing? Delaying iteratives more than a level puts you away from a fighter and more in line with a rogue. And while the hps are fair for a 15th level character/tank the armor class is not. The problem with looking at 15th level characters is two-fold: first that you might be judging them as 10th-12th level characters and second that you have to get up to 15th level. -James |
| Reylance12-26-07, 05:37 PM | I played a dragon disciple to apotheosis, because I wanted to play a half-dragon. The combination of classes (including paladin and rogue) led to good saving throws, and natural armor led to a good armor class. I had the mobility of a light fighter and the AC of a tank. I played most often in a group where high AC types occupied the monsters while archers and casters dealt the most damage. Still, there are few aspects that can't be better met with other classes. One of the only things dragon disciples are best at is cutting their way out of a monster's stomach, with a Power Attackable light weapon that doesn't need to be readied. |
| Hariman12-26-07, 06:55 PM | Heh that's what I thought too, thanks for supporting! How about some advice on item purchase? I just blew everything I've saved so far on a Animated Heavy Shield +1, Should I focus on AC? Str Bumps or Con bumps? Are items like Cloak of Resistance(they stack with occult slayer bonus right?) worth purchasing? Don't spread yourself too thin with your gold. You can't do everything. A piece of wisdom from one of the more experienced players in my area was: "To Hit bonus, AC, Damage: Pick Two" Personally, I recommend prioritizing damage and attack bonus first, then AC. The faster you kill the enemy, the less it does to you. It's why a cleric in my area carries a +1 vicious greatsword. He realized that the more damage he did early on, the less damage he had to heal later. (even with the vicious 1d6 backlash.) |
| MwaO12-26-07, 11:48 PM | I've got a friend with a Gnome Copper DD 10 right now. He's got 11 bab total, so he's got the same number of iteratives as everyone else, plus he's got the bite. He's also got ~230 hp in a rage, with AC in the mid/high 20's, and dishes out plenty of damage. Don't diss DD 10 until you've seen one in action in LG... That's not particularly that impressive. A Barbarian 1/HD10 14 who starts with a 14 Con, gets a +6 Con amulet, and Reckless Rage will have a 26 Con - that's 216. What you're saying, is despite him being a Gnome, having d12 for hit points for 10 levels and having gotten a +2 Con boost from DD, he's barely better than a standard rage machine for hit points. He's not particularly impressive in the AC department either, despite getting +5 AC that most BDFs won't get. Damagewise, he's missing MWM, he's getting dinged for being a Gnome and small - I'm sure he can do okay, but that's not the specific point being made here - yes, it is quite possible to make a Dragon Disciple that at 15th, will adequately fill the BDF slot. I wouldn't be upset to see him at the table. That doesn't make him the BDF I'd want at my table though. |
| Jay_Ibero_91112-27-07, 12:29 AM | That's not particularly that impressive. A Barbarian 1/HD10 14 who starts with a 14 Con, gets a +6 Con amulet, and Reckless Rage will have a 26 Con - that's 216. What you're saying, is despite him being a Gnome, having d12 for hit points for 10 levels and having gotten a +2 Con boost from DD, he's barely better than a standard rage machine for hit points. He's not particularly impressive in the AC department either, despite getting +5 AC that most BDFs won't get. Damagewise, he's missing MWM, he's getting dinged for being a Gnome and small - I'm sure he can do okay, but that's not the specific point being made here - yes, it is quite possible to make a Dragon Disciple that at 15th, will adequately fill the BDF slot. I wouldn't be upset to see him at the table. That doesn't make him the BDF I'd want at my table though. What happens when you assume...? Seriously, the character more than adequately fills the BDF slot, and also fills the face slot too. Just one case where you can't accurately judge by the race and class alone, you have to see him in action. Sir Snugglesworth is a gnome to be feared by any baddy... |
| MwaO12-27-07, 01:17 AM | What happens when you assume...? Seriously, the character more than adequately fills the BDF slot, and also fills the face slot too. Just one case where you can't accurately judge by the race and class alone, you have to see him in action. Sir Snugglesworth is a gnome to be feared by any baddy... I don't have to see him in action - he has Rage BDF hit points and below par AC according to you. He's a Gnome with a size penalty to Strength which means he's getting +6 total for being a Gnome and DD. He's behind on BAB and based on 10 levels of DD and Rage, can't have MWM. Rage also makes it unlikely that he's doing something very weird with spells consistently. If you have other information you'd like me to go on? Again, I'm sure he's perfectly adequate as a BDF at 15th. That doesn't mean he's capable of doing anywhere near the damage that his very build could do if you replace the last 6 levels of DD with Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/X 1(where X does not lose a BAB), even at 15th. And that would be incredibly obvious at levels 10-14 where he's falling behind on BAB. |
| copperwyrmling12-27-07, 02:04 AM | I don't have to see him in action - he has Rage BDF hit points and below par AC according to you. He's a Gnome with a size penalty to Strength which means he's getting +6 total for being a Gnome and DD. He's behind on BAB and based on 10 levels of DD and Rage, can't have MWM. Rage also makes it unlikely that he's doing something very weird with spells consistently. If you have other information you'd like me to go on? Again, I'm sure he's perfectly adequate as a BDF at 15th. That doesn't mean he's capable of doing anywhere near the damage that his very build could do if you replace the last 6 levels of DD with Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/X 1(where X does not lose a BAB), even at 15th. And that would be incredibly obvious at levels 10-14 where he's falling behind on BAB. To put it another way, just because you can make a strong, viable LG character with 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, that doesn't mean DD 10 is especially powerful as PrC choices go. I have a very effective L15 cleric who two-weapon-fights with a quarterstaff, but I'll be the first to say that the TWF tree on a cleric (given only LG-Open material) is a terrible idea optimization-wise - it's her 15 levels of cleric spellcasting that constitute most of her power, not her feat mix ;) That said... with different feat choices (and a different deity choice), my cleric could be (a lot) more optimized, and I agree with MwaO that when optimizing for damage output + AC + HP, there are better ways to go than DD 10. But... there's a point at which it doesn't really matter anymore. Barring some rare battle interactives, scenarios usually only hit a certain level of difficulty. When you're L15 and can comfortably play APL 16 mods with a party that needed to buy riding dogs to qualify for 16, and you can sit down at an APL 16 Core Special table and know that your PC will pull their weight, then being more powerful just means the monsters die a little quicker. Optimization past that point is mostly irrelevant. What Jay_Ibero's example says to me is that DD 10 isn't the sort of horrible trap that, say, multiclassing too many caster classes is. It's not going to render you ineffective at the high levels. It may not be optimized, but it's viable, and that's really all you need. For the purposes of this thread, though, it seems like Occult Slayer is easier to qualify for than Dragon Disciple for the OP, and is likely to have more immediate payoff - I think I'd go Occult Slayer in his position. |
| Sieylianna12-27-07, 08:38 PM | What Jay_Ibero's example says to me is that DD 10 isn't the sort of horrible trap that, say, multiclassing too many caster classes is. It's not going to render you ineffective at the high levels. It may not be optimized, but it's viable, and that's really all you need. It's like a quote from a book I read ages ago. "A good big man is always going to beat a good little man". Ed |
| Vamroc12-30-07, 12:55 AM | It's a toss up really Occult Slayer has much of it's power sapped when the Mage Slayer feat was closed. Dragon Disciple takes dedication for it to really pay off. Your best bet is to alternate between them |
| magebeast12-30-07, 01:21 AM | It's a toss up really Occult Slayer has much of it's power sapped when the Mage Slayer feat was closed. Dragon Disciple takes dedication for it to really pay off. Your best bet is to alternate between them Could you be more specific? That sounds like a good way to be sub-iconic to me. |
| Vamroc12-30-07, 05:44 PM | Could you be more specific? That sounds like a good way to be sub-iconic to me. It makes you more diverse in the types of combat you can perform and the DD levels give you boosts to stats your OS levels will find helpful. I could be wrong but I think you can treat natural magic weapons as being of master work quality for the purppose of the Weapon Bond ability. Hi cheese you betcha now hopfully you can see the options open by alternating between the two. I would advise starting with DD then take OS because there are more levels to that class. |
| TWG_Prometheus12-31-07, 01:04 PM | Alternating between Dragon Disciple and ... anything else? If someone goes DD, I expect to see either 4 or 10 as soon as possible, and only one of those choices would be for optimization reasons. Once you're in Dragon Disciple, don't leave it unless you're ready to leave it behind for good. |
| Lomiat12-31-07, 02:37 PM | That's not particularly that impressive. A Barbarian 1/HD10 14 who starts with a 14 Con, gets a +6 Con amulet, and Reckless Rage will have a 26 Con - that's 216. What you're saying, is despite him being a Gnome, having d12 for hit points for 10 levels and having gotten a +2 Con boost from DD, he's barely better than a standard rage machine for hit points. He's not particularly impressive in the AC department either, despite getting +5 AC that most BDFs won't get. Damagewise, he's missing MWM, he's getting dinged for being a Gnome and small - I'm sure he can do okay, but that's not the specific point being made here - yes, it is quite possible to make a Dragon Disciple that at 15th, will adequately fill the BDF slot. I wouldn't be upset to see him at the table. That doesn't make him the BDF I'd want at my table though. Meh... I'm familiar with DD "trap." At the benefit of increase strength and other coolness, you lose BAB and other such optimization, but... In the long run, if the table's viable, I'd rather take the *fun* PC (and player) at the table than worry about getting the most optimized PC. If a player makes a DD because he or she wants one and then manages to make it above-average (as in... above base fighter advancement), then that's easily good enough. Likewise, my 15th-level fighter took a few sub-optimal turns throughout his development and **still** won't buy a floating shield that wants to chase him around (who knows what it's planning to do?) or floating rocks (maybe they radiate your thoughts to the monsters...) and won't accept buffs from casters who don't sign his writ of service nor bardic music from bards who don't tell him beforehand - in-character - why he should lower his defenses... He holds his weight, but no one remembers him for how much damage he does in any given round. Rather, people remember him for the roleplay (and every once in a while for his tricks)... So long as the DD isn't getting his party killed and is contributing to the combat, Sir Snugglesworth is just fine... (( Sorry, but sometimes these optimization threads become a bit too critical and not enough helpful. )) |
| MwaO12-31-07, 03:10 PM | So long as the DD isn't getting his party killed and is contributing to the combat, Sir Snugglesworth is just fine... (( Sorry, but sometimes these optimization threads become a bit too critical and not enough helpful. )) The original poster wasn't talking about becoming a DD 10 as he's a Fighter 5...he can't possibly go DD 10... DD 10 is a bad idea because DD 5-9 are subiconic, especially DD 6-8 and especially when you're capped at 15. Remember, Sir Snugglesworth gained an iterative, +4 Str, and +1 Natural armor(among other things) at 15th when regular BDFs mostly just gained a BAB. He ought to be dominating tables if he was at least iconic at 14th. |
| TWG_Prometheus01-02-08, 11:44 AM | The original poster wasn't talking about becoming a DD 10 as he's a Fighter 5...he can't possibly go DD 10... DD 10 is a bad idea because DD 5-9 are subiconic, especially DD 6-8 and especially when you're capped at 15. Remember, Sir Snugglesworth gained an iterative, +4 Str, and +1 Natural armor(among other things) at 15th when regular BDFs mostly just gained a BAB. He ought to be dominating tables if he was at least iconic at 14th. Wouldn't it be fair to say, however, that most 'regular BDFs' in Living Greyhawk are better than iconic? It's not like the average build you see around here isn't heads-and-shoulders better than Fighter 15. DD 4 builds are certainly better than anything i'd call 'iconic'. If you call most of the optimized or semi-optimized builds that we throw around here 'iconic' then you're forcing an undue level of optimization at us. Maybe it's just a difference in terminology, but I view iconic as being substantially weaker than most LG builds I see. The Dragon Disciple 8 or Dragon Disciple 9 may well match iconic strength before getting their last levels, with the power bump at Dragon Disciple 10 only bringing them even or perhaps somewhat below an average LG build. I don't see anything wrong with that if it's what the player wants to do. |
| MwaO01-02-08, 12:21 PM | Maybe it's just a difference in terminology, but I view iconic as being substantially weaker than most LG builds I see. The Dragon Disciple 8 or Dragon Disciple 9 may well match iconic strength before getting their last levels, with the power bump at Dragon Disciple 10 only bringing them even or perhaps somewhat below an average LG build.. I'm using the same standard of iconic that you are. i.e. entry 5/dragon disciple 5-9 is weaker imo than a Fighter 10-14, a Barbarian 10-14, or Ranger 10-14. Substantially weaker than a Paladin 10-14. This is especially true of levels 11-14, where they all gain their 2nd iterative attack, yet the Dragon Disciple has to wait until 15th usually. At 15th, sure, I'll grant them as being better than any of the others at 15th. |
| Vamroc01-02-08, 12:53 PM | A Power build or Iconic build means you found wiggle room to be a cheese weasel hey good for you. A lot of people don't care about being able to solo an APL 6 mod because it just ruins it for everybody else. You can be sub optimal and be just as effective in a mod when the table needs a knowledge check or skill check your the one they'll turn to. Fighter can't make a knowledge check and don't look for the Barbarian to save you with a cure light wand. |
| MwaO01-02-08, 01:15 PM | A Power build or Iconic build means you found wiggle room to be a cheese weasel hey good for you. A lot of people don't care about being able to solo an APL 6 mod because it just ruins it for everybody else. You can be sub optimal and be just as effective in a mod when the table needs a knowledge check or skill check your the one they'll turn to. Fighter can't make a knowledge check and don't look for the Barbarian to save you with a cure light wand. I'm not talking about APL 6 nor am I talking about being able to solo a mod. I'm talking about APL 10-14 where a DD picking LG legal feats is falling behind someone picking feats out of PHB. If at 11th level, your Dragon Disciple is running around making knowledge checks or using a CLW wand in combat, you've got much bigger problems than simply being sub-iconic. |
| magebeast01-02-08, 05:03 PM | A Power build or Iconic build means you found wiggle room to be a cheese weasel hey good for you. A lot of people don't care about being able to solo an APL 6 mod because it just ruins it for everybody else. You can be sub optimal and be just as effective in a mod when the table needs a knowledge check or skill check your the one they'll turn to. Fighter can't make a knowledge check and don't look for the Barbarian to save you with a cure light wand. Just nit-picking but iconic and power builds aren't the same. Iconic pretty much means a straight classed PC with PHB feats. |
| jstorrie01-05-08, 01:43 AM | You can do some fun things with DD10. For example: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Beguiler: Power Attack, Combat Expertise 2 Barbarian 3 Swashbuckler: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Weapon Finesse 4 Swashbuckler 5 Swashbuckler 6 Dragon Disciple: Improved Trip 7 Dragon Disciple 8 Dragon Disciple 9 Dragon Disciple: Extra Rage 10 Dragon Disciple 11 Dragon Disciple 12 Dragon Disciple: Combat Reflexes 13 Dragon Disciple 14 Dragon Disciple 15 Dragon Disciple: Reckless Rage Trapfinding! Tripping! Yeah. |
| bitznarf01-06-08, 12:49 AM | EWP requires +1 BaB. |
| Lomiat01-06-08, 12:26 PM | Jstorrie's build is pretty good, but I'd recommend 2 levels of Fighter and 2 levels of Barbarian instead of the Swashbuckler. 2 extra feats and Uncanny Dodge probably go a lot further than a modicum of INT to damage. In the meantime, DD is *very* good for trip builds where it's simply more important to have strength than BAB in order to make things fall down. The bad guys might not get insta-blinked as quickly by a DD as by a pure melee monster with full BAB, but the AoOs you get when creatures stand up from prone and the beneft you gain from not getting hit when the bad guys are on their backs... over there... add up quickly. My trip-fighter had AC 19 for about 13 levels, and his AC was generally the least important part of his build. His Trip modifier? Close to the top. |
| MwaO01-06-08, 02:05 PM | In the meantime, DD is *very* good for trip builds where it's simply more important to have strength than BAB in order to make things fall down. The bad guys might not get insta-blinked as quickly by a DD as by a pure melee monster with full BAB, but the AoOs you get when creatures stand up from prone and the beneft you gain from not getting hit when the bad guys are on their backs... over there... add up quickly. And that's just reiterating what I'm saying - 4 levels of DD are good for a lot of reasons. But levels 5-9 don't make you a better tripper - it delays the 2nd iterative attack until 15th. And most tripper builds will still manage to touch consistently with that 2nd iterative attack. If you're fighting opponents that can't be tripped, then you're down BAB again. In that context, too, because a DD 10 build with rage built in can't get Exotic Weapon Master or Fighter 4, it ends up being a worse tripper than a PHB Barbarian 15 build - getting an extra trip attempt at 6th/7th and 11th-14th is a big deal when it matters, and Barbarian 11 gets Greater Rage, which doesn't do a bad job of compensating for the +4 Strength a DD gets at 9th. |
| jstorrie01-06-08, 03:56 PM | You could trip with your claw/claw/bite, couldn't you? That's a lot of extra attempts. |
| kkbkbl01-06-08, 08:34 PM | Jstorrie's build is pretty good, but I'd recommend 2 levels of Fighter and 2 levels of Barbarian instead of the Swashbuckler. 2 extra feats and Uncanny Dodge probably go a lot further than a modicum of INT to damage. In the meantime, DD is *very* good for trip builds where it's simply more important to have strength than BAB in order to make things fall down. The bad guys might not get insta-blinked as quickly by a DD as by a pure melee monster with full BAB, but the AoOs you get when creatures stand up from prone and the beneft you gain from not getting hit when the bad guys are on their backs... over there... add up quickly. My trip-fighter had AC 19 for about 13 levels, and his AC was generally the least important part of his build. His Trip modifier? Close to the top. But I was under the impression that there aren't many ways to increase trip mods in the way of items. I'm holding off buying a belt of giant str because in perrenland i can bullstr 1/adventure and boosting spirit(+4 str 1d10 rounds as a free action) 1/adventure, which is enough for about 2 encounters. On the other hand, AC is handy when you're fighting stuff that can't easily be tripped (like greater barghests i was the other day) There are alot of stuff that can't easily be tripped and you're mostly limited to humanoid monsters >Huge, imo |
| MwaO01-06-08, 10:34 PM | You could trip with your claw/claw/bite, couldn't you? That's a lot of extra attempts. It isn't quite the same thing - you're not taking those claw attempts unless you're not using your Spiked Chain. Secondary Natural Attack that can't be dropped or used two-handed is not the same thing as a magical Spiked Chain... Especially when you're playing levels 11-14 where magical Spiked Chain starts contributing significant extra damage on its own. |
| bitznarf01-07-08, 12:12 AM | On the other hand, AC is handy when you're fighting stuff that can't easily be tripped (like greater barghests i was the other day) There are alot of stuff that can't easily be tripped and you're mostly limited to humanoid monsters >Huge, imo This doesn't really say anything much about DD imo, mostly just a limitation of tripping builds. |
| Lomiat01-07-08, 08:15 PM | But I was under the impression that there aren't many ways to increase trip mods in the way of items. I'm holding off buying a belt of giant str because in perrenland i can bullstr 1/adventure and boosting spirit(+4 str 1d10 rounds as a free action) 1/adventure, which is enough for about 2 encounters. On the other hand, AC is handy when you're fighting stuff that can't easily be tripped (like greater barghests i was the other day) There are alot of stuff that can't easily be tripped and you're mostly limited to humanoid monsters >Huge, imo There's actually a good deal that one can do to boost Trip attempts. In addition to the STR (which DD can add) -- and, presumably, rage -- there are prestige classes (Exotic Weapon Master), items (Armband of Might, Brute Gauntlets and the Sweeping enhancement, if you can find it), Size modifiers (Enlarge Person, and every tripper should carry 3 potions at all times, just in case no one's spending an action to make you big), Belts of Strength (I don't know what Boosting Spirit is, but if it's not an enhancement bonus, it should stack), Marshal auras (take Leadership for a cohort, maybe), Ioun Stones (competence bonus), Luck Stones (luck bonus), RPGA reward cards (+8 to one STR check), weird AR favors, etc... But... at the heart of it, STR begins the matter and is the most multi-purpose factor involved. That's why it's okay to lose some BAB as a DD tripper, though I'd agree with Mommy that you want to limit your loss of BAB. |
| dkay80701-07-08, 10:40 PM | Just nit-picking but iconic and power builds aren't the same. Iconic pretty much means a straight classed PC with PHB feats. That is what Iconic may have meant 3 years ago, but there is so much additional content now that you could easily have an Iconic Spellsword, an Iconic Arcane Trickster, an Iconic Radiant Servant of Pelor, or an Iconic Dragon Disciple. Iconic can be very well interpreted as an overall character concept rather than a particular combination of class levels (or lack thereof). |
| magebeast01-08-08, 01:39 AM | That is what Iconic may have meant 3 years ago, but there is so much additional content now that you could easily have an Iconic Spellsword, an Iconic Arcane Trickster, an Iconic Radiant Servant of Pelor, or an Iconic Dragon Disciple. Iconic can be very well interpreted as an overall character concept rather than a particular combination of class levels (or lack thereof). I suppose that it's true but it's still inaccurate to equate iconic with cheese. |
| dkay80701-08-08, 05:51 PM | I suppose that it's true but it's still inaccurate to equate iconic with cheese. Not to hijack this thread but... I can agree with that statement. Something that's cheesey is no longer Iconic, at least in my opinion. My interpretation of cheese from a character-building perspective is when a player constructs a character in such a way that he disregards style entirely in order to achieve a particular number of goals, goals that often blur the rules, whether they be the rules by letter or rules by spirit. Cheesey characters can often be powerful or even broken characters, but don't necessarily have to be. I had a friend who played in the earlier years with a cheesey mutt garrote fighter/thief acrobat that dropped prone every single round. Man was he cheesey, but the character was relatively underpowered. Iconic characters are in my opinion never cheesey but can certainly be overpowered or even broken if built well. |
| kkbkbl01-13-08, 11:19 AM | Random question, I got access to an armbands of might recently, and am kinda curious what "bonus to str checks" mean. Trip is a Str check, right? Attack/Damage rolls aren't right? |
| Jay_Ibero_91101-13-08, 01:41 PM | Random question, I got access to an armbands of might recently, and am kinda curious what "bonus to str checks" mean. Trip is a Str check, right? Attack/Damage rolls aren't right? Yes and Yes. |
| clannagh01-13-08, 11:14 PM | Random question, I got access to an armbands of might recently, and am kinda curious what "bonus to str checks" mean. Trip is a Str check, right? Attack/Damage rolls aren't right? Some of the more literal minded GM's will also rule out grapple as it isnt "pure" strength and includes a BAB component. |
| TWG_Prometheus01-14-08, 03:52 PM | Some of the more literal minded GM's will also rule out grapple as it isnt "pure" strength and includes a BAB component. One more reason to despise the Grapple chapter. It's neither an attack nor a Strength check but some bizarre and poorly defined combination of the two. I personally lean toward grapple checks being a Strength check, so the Armbands would work. Personally I think the Armbands are worth it even if they don't help with grappling though. Bonuses to Strength checks to break out of Entangle or Web, boosts to Climb/Jump/Swim, and an efficiency boost to Power Attack usage makes it a big boon for any build that uses Power Attack. More importantly, there's nothing better for that magic item slot generally speaking. |
| Wyvernhand01-14-08, 03:58 PM | I have a level 15 spiked chain occult slayer exotic weapons master clone. I must say, OS stuff, while being nice, has only come into play once so far. Something about a trio of huge advanced Umber Hulks taking a round of Flurry of Strikes about the head and neck. Other than that, I used it once to block out a boxed text dream sequence, which gave me an opportunity to leave the room and forage for food. I still haven't used Mind over Magic, much less twice in one day. The only time Visious Strike comes into play is when closing distance on an enemy spellcaster and then only if they are within single move distance, otherwise a charge is needed. The save bonuses are what comes up most often. The thing that kind of hurts about it is most of the time you give up bard song and Righteous Wrath. All in all, its a fine class. It shores up a few of the weaknesses of a fighter, but thats nothing that a newly FAQed Protection from Evil can't fix 9/10 times. It comes with feature that is a double edged sword though. I think I get more mileage out of the 2 levels of barbarian than I do for the better part from my 5 levels of OS. EDIT: More importantly, there's nothing better for that magic item slot generally speaking. Bracers of Spellsharing are pretty nifty. The ability to mooch off your friendly arcane casters Dragon Skin is a very tasty prospect indeed. |
| Maesto01-14-08, 04:43 PM | Bracelets of Spellsharing? There's only a handful of those around in the campaign, surely? If somebody else is offering them to you, go for it, but that's really no reason not to pick up something else for your bracers slot! |
| kkbkbl01-14-08, 10:44 PM | I have a level 15 spiked chain occult slayer exotic weapons master clone. I must say, OS stuff, while being nice, has only come into play once so far. Something about a trio of huge advanced Umber Hulks taking a round of Flurry of Strikes about the head and neck. Other than that, I used it once to block out a boxed text dream sequence, which gave me an opportunity to leave the room and forage for food. I still haven't used Mind over Magic, much less twice in one day. The only time Visious Strike comes into play is when closing distance on an enemy spellcaster and then only if they are within single move distance, otherwise a charge is needed. The save bonuses are what comes up most often. The thing that kind of hurts about it is most of the time you give up bard song and Righteous Wrath. All in all, its a fine class. It shores up a few of the weaknesses of a fighter, but thats nothing that a newly FAQed Protection from Evil can't fix 9/10 times. It comes with feature that is a double edged sword though. I think I get more mileage out of the 2 levels of barbarian than I do for the better part from my 5 levels of OS. EDIT: Bracers of Spellsharing are pretty nifty. The ability to mooch off your friendly arcane casters Dragon Skin is a very tasty prospect indeed. Wait a minute, isn't suppressing the mind blank effect a free action? Couldn't you free action turn it off and turn it back on? You haven't used mind over magic not even once? You've never been a target of a spell since you've got it? |
| magebeast01-14-08, 11:40 PM | Wait a minute, isn't suppressing the mind blank effect a free action? Couldn't you free action turn it off and turn it back on? You haven't used mind over magic not even once? You've never been a target of a spell since you've got it? I think one issue with Mind Over Magic is that RAW you cannot take free actions outside of your turn so you have to decide to use it before you actually get any spells cast on you. |
| kkbkbl01-14-08, 11:51 PM | I think one issue with Mind Over Magic is that RAW you cannot take free actions outside of your turn so you have to decide to use it before you actually get any spells cast on you. No errata? :( I'm alittle more hesitant on taking more EWP nao. But my lvl 9 feat is for MWM so the earliest i can take extra rage(and barbarian) is 12 unless i dump even more levels into fighter :| Edit: Where's this Protection from Evil yummyness you speak of. |
| Jay_Ibero_91101-15-08, 12:03 AM | No errata? :( I'm alittle more hesitant on taking more EWP nao. But my lvl 9 feat is for MWM so the earliest i can take extra rage(and barbarian) is 12 unless i dump even more levels into fighter :| Edit: Where's this Protection from Evil yummyness you speak of. Can you nab a copy or two of the "One more time" campaign card...with 2 of them in your stack...you don't even need extra rage....as far as the Protection from Evil thing, it's in the FAQ....in a nutshell it says that it now protects against all charms and compulsions with a duration of anything other than instantaneous. |
| magebeast01-15-08, 12:57 AM | No errata? :( I'm alittle more hesitant on taking more EWP nao. But my lvl 9 feat is for MWM so the earliest i can take extra rage(and barbarian) is 12 unless i dump even more levels into fighter :| Edit: Where's this Protection from Evil yummyness you speak of. None that I've seen. I mean, it's not an awful ability if you're smart about it. It's "as the spell" with a caster level of OS level + 5 so it's got a minimum duration of 70 minutes, so if you know you're going to be fighting a spell caster in the near future you can throw it up and be fairly certain you'll have it up when you hit the combat. If you enter a combat with a spellcaster you might as well just throw it up. It's a free action so it doesn't eat up any of your actions and it's a supernatural ability so the spellcaster cannot spellcraft the ability. One thing that's tricky is that it says it can cause a spell or spell like ability to be reflected so you might want to ask your DM if you should roll like the spell indicates for spell levels or just reflect a single spell or spell like ability per use. |
| bitznarf01-15-08, 01:06 AM | Can you nab a copy or two of the "One more time" campaign card...with 2 of them in your stack...you don't even need extra rage....as far as the Protection from Evil thing, it's in the FAQ....in a nutshell it says that it now protects against all charms and compulsions with a duration of anything other than instantaneous. It suggests it, it doesn't actually rule that it *does*. |
| jstorrie01-15-08, 03:35 AM | To get back to your original question–the build issue–I might eschew Occult Slayer altogether. You could go– 1 Ftr: EWP, WF, C. Ex 2 Ftr: Imp Trip 3 Ftr: PA 4 Ftr: WS 5 Ftr 6 Brb: Extra Rage 7 Ftr: Combat Reflexes 8 Exotic Weapon Master: Flurry of Strikes 9 Ftr: MWM 10 Ftr: Greater WF Spiked Chain 11 Brb 12 Rog: Staggering Strike 13 Rog 14 Rog 15 Rog: Improved Buckler Defense |
| Wyvernhand01-15-08, 07:23 AM | While it doesn't explicitly say, suppressing an OS' Mind Blank ability is a standard action, just like suppressng SR. Its also a standard to reraise. So the one time you might want to lower it, combat where you would benefit from bard songs and Righteous Wrath and such, it costs you precious actions that you could be hitting stuff till it stops twitching, and also the exact place where you are most likely to need its protection, such as vs an enemy caster, creature with fear aura, or creature with other mind affecting at-will or aura ability. Its just a sacrifice my character is willing to take, especially after having been mind-affected in 3 encounters in a row one day in Furyondy (Curse you Bronzeblood Keep!! CURSE YOU!!!) |
| kkbkbl01-15-08, 07:45 AM | While it doesn't explicitly say, suppressing an OS' Mind Blank ability is a standard action, just like suppressng SR. Its also a standard to reraise. So the one time you might want to lower it, combat where you would benefit from bard songs and Righteous Wrath and such, it costs you precious actions that you could be hitting stuff till it stops twitching, and also the exact place where you are most likely to need its protection, such as vs an enemy caster, creature with fear aura, or creature with other mind affecting at-will or aura ability. Its just a sacrifice my character is willing to take, especially after having been mind-affected in 3 encounters in a row one day in Furyondy (Curse you Bronzeblood Keep!! CURSE YOU!!!) Wait a minute there, it's explicitly stated in the mind blank ability description that "She can suppress or resume this ability as a free action". |
| Timlagor01-18-08, 01:31 PM | For the Mind over Magic I treat it as an immediate action that doesn't use up your Swift/Immediate action for the round. Most people treat it that way ime. Strict reading of the RAW could certainly lead you to treat it differently but I'm pretty confident I'm on the intent of this very badly worded ability. |
| magebeast01-18-08, 02:00 PM | For the Mind over Magic I treat it as an immediate action that doesn't use up your Swift/Immediate action for the round. Most people treat it that way ime. Strict reading of the RAW could certainly lead you to treat it differently but I'm pretty confident I'm on the intent of this very badly worded ability. I've never had to rule on it myself (I only DM once in a blue moon) but we had to have the DM rule on it during our RHoD game. The player picked it up during part 5 near the end and it never actually mattered because he had a circle against evil on him pretty much all the time through part 5. I disagree that the intent is clearly in that direction, but it's not an argument that I think is all that important. |
| JamesMaissen01-18-08, 05:10 PM | For the Mind over Magic I treat it as an immediate action that doesn't use up your Swift/Immediate action for the round. Most people treat it that way ime. Strict reading of the RAW could certainly lead you to treat it differently but I'm pretty confident I'm on the intent of this very badly worded ability. While that's the way it's played at most tables where I've seen it, I would not go so far as to agree with intent. Nor would I say that is what it even should be. Consider how many other things, that while wrong, are more common at tables than the correct way. The fact that the writer used the term free action is very bad for this to be reactive as you wish. But what's worse n my mind is the caster level for the ability being given. If used in the manor you suggest it has absolutely no use and just takes up printing space. If it is used as written as a free action during one's turn then it does to compute the duration. -James |