| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| ToddMorgan04-11-07, 06:20 PM | Is the DD a worthy Prestige class? Would I want to start out as a Fighter and do Sorc levels or start out as a Sorc and do a level of fighter? What would good Ability scores be for a DD |
| dkay80704-11-07, 10:54 PM | In my opinion, DD is a fantastic prestige class. It has many, many strengths and only a few weaknesses. Pros: - High Fort and Will Save - D12 Hit Die - Great Class Skills - Ability Score Boosts - Natural Armor Boosts - Spells per day increase Cons: - 3/4 BAB - Low class skills The best way to go is typically a melee PC with some decent amount of spellcasting without sacrificing too much BAB. Many people like to take Hexblade levels, which I think is a mistake. 1st level Hexblade spells are garbage. Sorcerer is a fun idea, and Bard is also fun, since you have the advantage of gaining the Bard song. I would also recommend only taking 4 levels as you would get the maximum benefit out of the class. The only real reason to take more levels is if you want to become a full half-dragon for style points in which case, don't take any more than 5 levels in other classes. Typical DD builds are: Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/DD 4... Barbarian 1/Bard 4/DD 4... Fighter 4/Bard 2/DD 4... Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Bard 1/DD 4... Paladin 4/Sorc 1/DD 4... Beguiler is a popular class for Dragon Disciples as well, but I'm not a fan at all so I won't propose any of those options. I'll let one of the other character building experts out there add on with Beguiler ideas. Taking one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow is a popular option since you'll have high strength and can increase your damage substantially. If you choose the Barbarian route, your strength will be extremely high. You'll be dealing large amounts of damage effortlessly. Make sure you use a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands... Bastard Sword, Maul, Dire Pick all work nicely. I use a Bastard Sword for Whirling Blade purposes. You get the point. As for Ability Scores, it depends on your style of play, and how much min-maxing you want to do. Let's take a human example: Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12 This is a nicely-rounded DD build without any serious min-maxing. Your charisma doesn't need to be any higher since you're only casting level 1 spells unless you are a Paladin or took 4 Bard or Sorceror levels. The expectation is that you'll pump Strength 3 times, at 4th 8th and 12th. I personally used this build with the exception of dropping Int to 8 and raising Charisma to 14. I currently play a Paladin 4/Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 4 soon to be EWM 1, making use of Devoted Performer and Battle Caster so that I can cast my Bard spells in Mithral Fullplate with no spell failure. The Dragon Disciple levels give me quite a nice strength boost as well as bonus Bard spells so that I can toss around plenty of Whirling Blades, Mirror Images, Critical Strikes, Focusing Chants and Inspirational Boosts with my Inspire Courage ability. I have a few Memento Magica for extra spells per day. Paladin 4 and Divine Might allow me some nice extra damage on my attacks (4 currently). The character is extremely versatile. |
| bhale18704-11-07, 11:11 PM | I have just started what will end up as a Barb2/Fighter2/Beguiler1/RDD10 he is a half-orc with starting stats S-20/D-10/C-14/I-10/W-8/C-6 |
| dkay80704-11-07, 11:43 PM | I have just started what will end up as a Barb2/Fighter2/Beguiler1/RDD10 he is a half-orc with starting stats S-20/D-10/C-14/I-10/W-8/C-6 Keep in mind you can't choose a chromatic dragon to be a DD of without campaign documentation. |
| King Kashue04-12-07, 12:28 AM | I have just started what will end up as a Barb2/Fighter2/Beguiler1/RDD10 he is a half-orc with starting stats S-20/D-10/C-14/I-10/W-8/C-6 Also keep in mind that with those stats, you'll only be able to cast 0th level spells without wearing a headband of Int, or wasting a precious stat boost point on INT |
| Morgen04-12-07, 01:08 AM | Paladin 4/Warmage 1/Dragon Diciple 10 is what my current character is building for. You stuff the bonus spell slots into your Paladin spells and have a ton of them. Take multiple Bless Weapon/Divine Sacrifice/Lesser Restorations and you get to be a pretty decent tank. The bonuses later on stack well with making you a very well rounded character. Plus being a Half-Gold Dragon Paladin of Bahumat works really nicely with a lot of the mods out there these days. |
| magebeast04-12-07, 01:12 AM | Also keep in mind that with those stats, you'll only be able to cast 0th level spells without wearing a headband of Int, or wasting a precious stat boost point on INT He doesn't have an odd stat, so he can spare the point. |
| King Kashue04-12-07, 01:23 AM | He doesn't have an odd stat, so he can spare the point. It's still a terrible waste. As for "sparing the point", my Bear Warrior began with a 20 str, but he'll hit 24 next level at 12. Never assuming anything about the course of a character's career. ;) Point buy-wise you're using the bump to buy a 1 point stat instead of an 8-10 point. That's just bad math :D |
| Alpha_Nerd04-12-07, 02:40 AM | Well, there isn't much else better for your head slot than a headband +2. Seems like a very worthwhile 4k if you ask me. |
| King Kashue04-12-07, 02:57 AM | Well, there isn't much else better for your head slot than a headband +2. Seems like a very worthwhile 4k if you ask me. For a dragon disciple? A Hat of Disguise often comes in quite handy when you need to conceal your "eczema" :D Though I suppose you could go without 1st level spells in general, if you're going with Beguiler. There's not much terribly handy for a combat beast there. Expeditious retreat could be nice, but I'm not sure with Barbarian movement, I'd take a round to cast it. |
| jstorrie04-12-07, 03:21 AM | Pal 4 / Sor 1 is probably your best bet, as you can use the Paladin slots to keep a complement of good tactical spells: Rhino's Rush, Divine Sacrifice, Resurgence, etc. Pick a small number of no-somatic Sorceror spells for your first-level arcane slot, like Critical Strike, Swift Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall, and you have many options in combat. Just be aware that your low BAB is going to cut your full attack damage significantly–hey, maybe use a suglin or something. |
| gomeztoo04-12-07, 03:50 AM | Another possibility is Barbarian/Bard. Good hp, rage, and bard song. Spells don't do much then unless you take 2 bard levels. My own PC is a Brb/Ftr/Clr/Sor/Rgr/DD5. Sky-rocketing Fort saves. Good hp, not-so-good BAB though. Domain powers are luck and travel. The sorcerer spells are swift spells that aid in combat (such as Critical Strike). She divides her DD spells betwen cleric and sorcerer. My build has a few odd, non-optimal elements (such as Master's Touch so she can fight with exotic weapons), but the idea is good, I think. I'll note that I personally encourage people enter a prestige class to seenk to finish it. Especially a class such as Dragon Disciple. That prestige class really deserves to be run to the end. |
| bhale18704-12-07, 07:35 AM | For a dragon disciple? A Hat of Disguise often comes in quite handy when you need to conceal your "eczema" :D Though I suppose you could go without 1st level spells in general, if you're going with Beguiler. There's not much terribly handy for a combat beast there. Expeditious retreat could be nice, but I'm not sure with Barbarian movement, I'd take a round to cast it. That's the idea. I took beguiler because I knew with an half-Orc I was going to end up dumping either INT or CHA, and I would rather not loose 2 skill points every level due to a dumped INT. By level 5 when I take beguiler there are no level 1 spells that were worth taking the time to cast. I know there were better ways to spend the points, but I wanted to max out STR from the start just because I love bashing things to the extreme at level 1 and 2. |
| gomeztoo04-12-07, 07:55 AM | Oh, and as for disguises: My dragon disicple has not seen necessity to hide her features yet. Some people initially react with fear/disgust, but most (eventually) recognize her as 'weird, but mostly harmless'. So a hat of disguise seems money thrown away unless you want to be really subtle. |
| LachlarlanIII04-12-07, 09:49 AM | I'm going Hexblade3/Marshal1/Warmage1/DD10. He's going to be the trip-fighter extraordinaire. |
| Rerednaw04-12-07, 10:17 AM | Another possibility is Barbarian/Bard. Good hp, rage, and bard song. Spells don't do much then unless you take 2 bard levels. My own PC is a Brb/Ftr/Clr/Sor/Rgr/DD5. Sky-rocketing Fort saves. Good hp, not-so-good BAB though. Domain powers are luck and travel. The sorcerer spells are swift spells that aid in combat (such as Critical Strike). She divides her DD spells betwen cleric and sorcerer. My build has a few odd, non-optimal elements (such as Master's Touch so she can fight with exotic weapons), but the idea is good, I think. I'll note that I personally encourage people enter a prestige class to seenk to finish it. Especially a class such as Dragon Disciple. That prestige class really deserves to be run to the end. Out of curiousity, what race and what were your stats? |
| Grantor04-12-07, 03:00 PM | It's still a terrible waste. As for "sparing the point", my Bear Warrior began with a 20 str, but he'll hit 24 next level at 12. Never assuming anything about the course of a character's career. ;) Point buy-wise you're using the bump to buy a 1 point stat instead of an 8-10 point. That's just bad math :D The weirdness of the math also stems from an LG character getting three bumps in their career. That's also a "terrible waste." |
| ToddMorgan04-12-07, 03:47 PM | I was thinking of making a Casting DD instead of a Tank DD. What do you think of Warmage 3/Sorc 2 or Sorc 3/War 2 or even Warmage 4 / Sorc 1. The level of Sorc is to be able to cast some non-damage spells like grease and sleep. Heck I guess that means you could also have a level of Wizard and prepare a few different spells. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-12-07, 04:07 PM | For a dragon disciple? A Hat of Disguise often comes in quite handy when you need to conceal your "eczema" :D Though I suppose you could go without 1st level spells in general, if you're going with Beguiler. There's not much terribly handy for a combat beast there. Expeditious retreat could be nice, but I'm not sure with Barbarian movement, I'd take a round to cast it. I think it depends on the build. The interesting thing about Beguiler from a Dragon Disciple 4 standpoint is that with a level of Rogue, you can pretty easily qualify for Unseen Seer 1-4. It isn't hard to get to 3rd level spells and arcane strike that way by 9th level. Not to mention functioning pretty well as the party trapfinder. Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Beguiler 2/Unseen Seer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Something +2 BAB for 2 levels. |
| Jay_Ibero_91104-12-07, 04:07 PM | I don't know why the BAB bothers anybody anyway...with the strength boosts, 9th level of DD is the only level of the class where your total attack bonus from the class (strength+bab) is less than your level, and then at 10th you are above the curve again...and while you do delay your 2nd and 3rd attacks on a full attack, you do get the fun little bite attack to suplement your damage... |
| King Kashue04-12-07, 04:54 PM | That's the idea. I took beguiler because I knew with an half-Orc I was going to end up dumping either INT or CHA, and I would rather not loose 2 skill points every level due to a dumped INT. Good point. In actuality, you can barely afford to lose them, because you need at least 10 skill points to make Dragon Disciple. If you don't start with Beguiler (though it'd be silly not to), you need 6 skill points prior to Beguiler, which with an Int of 6 is exactly what you'd get (which would leave you zero to spare). |
| gomeztoo04-13-07, 04:37 AM | [/SIZE]Out of curiousity, what race and what were your stats? High elf. Original stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10 Current stats: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10 (12 with cloak) Note that she relies on her cloak to cast spells, but she is primarily a light fighter with a lot of tricks. You could sacrifice Int for Cha. |
| gomeztoo04-13-07, 04:39 AM | I don't know why the BAB bothers anybody anyway... More attacks sooner. You really miss that extra attack when you get past lvl 6. Gomez |
| bhale18704-13-07, 09:21 AM | More attacks sooner. You really miss that extra attack when you get past lvl 6. Gomez Unless of course you are claw/bite attacker, then you are only 1 level behind on getting the second attack. |
| KShaver04-13-07, 10:15 AM | I'm going Hexblade3/Marshal1/Warmage1/DD10. He's going to be the trip-fighter extraordinaire. Curious, why not hexblade 4 and drop warmage? |
| LachlarlanIII04-13-07, 11:30 AM | Curious, why not hexblade 4 and drop warmage? True Strike + Armored Casting. That's really the only reason. Taking a hit to BAB doesn't matter when you're +20 before modifiers to Disarm checks. I'm considering forsaking armor, taking Sorcerer instead of Warmage and taking the Draconic Claw feat. True Strike -> Swift Action Claw attack Disarm attempt = foe weaponless and me with his weapon. Toss in Master's Touch for added sillyness. :D Edit: I forgot True Strike was Vocal only... Guess I don't have to forsake armor after all. :) |
| KShaver04-13-07, 11:52 AM | True Strike + Armored Casting. Taking a hit to BAB doesn't matter when you're +20 before modifiers to Disarm checks. I heard tripper, so I was counting out true strike. I'm considering forsaking armor, taking Sorcerer instead of Warmage and taking the Draconic Claw feat. True Strike -> Swift Action Claw attack Disarm attempt = foe weaponless and me with his weapon. Very nice combo. You'll be stretched on feats though, 2 for draconic heritage and draconic claw, 3 for expertise, imp disarm and imp trip, plus possible a few more like EWP:spiked chain and/or combat reflexes. |
| gomeztoo04-13-07, 12:05 PM | Toss in Master's Touch for added sillyness. :D What's silly about being able to use any weapon you can get your hands on? Double weapons, spiked chain, whip/whip-dagger, boomerang, bolas... Especially now most exotic weapons are Open access. |
| LachlarlanIII04-13-07, 02:23 PM | I heard tripper, so I was counting out true strike. Very nice combo. You'll be stretched on feats though, 2 for draconic heritage and draconic claw, 3 for expertise, imp disarm and imp trip, plus possible a few more like EWP:spiked chain and/or combat reflexes. I usually count Disarm in there if someone makes an Int-fighter. No need to take EWP with spells like Master's Touch (which I believe is also 1st level, vocal only, swift, and lasts minutes per level.) |
| Alpha_Nerd04-13-07, 03:23 PM | Fighter 1/Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10. STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 12 Disarming Machine. |
| KShaver04-13-07, 03:26 PM | I got a lot to say about some of these builds, but its not for the here. Perhaps a new thread later. |
| LachlarlanIII04-13-07, 05:41 PM | I got a lot to say about some of these builds, but its not for the here. Perhaps a new thread later. Good or bad? |
| boolean04-15-07, 01:22 AM | I don't know why the BAB bothers anybody anyway...with the strength boosts, 9th level of DD is the only level of the class where your total attack bonus from the class (strength+bab) is less than your level, and then at 10th you are above the curve again...and while you do delay your 2nd and 3rd attacks on a full attack, you do get the fun little bite attack to suplement your damage... At 4th level you're ahead of the curve. +3 to attack from BAB, +2 from strength. +5 to hit from four levels is better than most classes get. It's true that levels 5-8 put you at the curve, but why drop back to being merely standard when you can stay ahead of the curve by stopping at four levels and taking a full BA class instead? |
| King Kashue04-15-07, 01:40 AM | It's true that levels 5-8 put you at the curve, but why drop back to being merely standard when you can stay ahead of the curve by stopping at four levels and taking a full BA class instead? Because not everyone is merely engaging in mathematic exercises with their characters? |
| TWG_Prometheus04-15-07, 11:18 PM | Not only that, but Dragon Disciple 5-8 does give some other interesting toys to play with. Bonus spells and Int/Con bumps aren't much for a four level drop, but Blindsense is a very handy ability and the +1 natural Armor Class is excellent for tank builds. I see a lot of hate for feats that give one AC, but characters that already have high armor class get a lot of mileage out of them. A Shield Specialization/Shield Ward Dragon Disciple would be a tough rock to crack. If the Dragon Disciple dips their standard AC just a bit for Mithril Breastplate and some Dex instead of a Fullplate variant, they could have a very reasonable Touch AC. |
| jstorrie04-16-07, 12:51 AM | If you are willing to plan around a special mission (possibly a shaky proposal) you could do Half-elf Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 16 1 Fighter: Iron Will, Power Attack 2 Paladin 3 Paladin: Combat Casting 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Outcast Champion: Divine Might 7 Outcast Champion 8 Suel Arcanamach 9 Suel Arcanamach: Leadership 10 Suel Arcanamach 11 Suel Arcanamach 12 Dragon Disciple: Arcane Strike 13 Dragon Disciple 14 Dragon Disciple 15 Dragon Disciple: Skill Focus (Craft: Basketweaving) I completely disagree that characters who already have a high armor class get more mileage out of AC-increasing feats. Once your AC is high enough that Power Attack is not a threat, you should diversify your defenses. Being unhittable is not worth all that much if you're already going to be missed enough that you won't die. |
| King Kashue04-16-07, 03:45 AM | I completely disagree that characters who already have a high armor class get more mileage out of AC-increasing feats. Once your AC is high enough that Power Attack is not a threat, you should diversify your defenses. Being unhittable is not worth all that much if you're already going to be missed enough that you won't die. Have you played APL 10 mods with creatures with unbuffed 5 attacks at +25 with 2d8+14 and 15 foot reach? I have. There is no such thing as being too hard to hit. |
| Japangirl04-16-07, 03:49 AM | Have you played APL 10 mods with creatures with unbuffed 5 attacks at +25 with 2d8+14 and 15 foot reach? I have. There is no such thing as being too hard to hit. Agreed. There are also things that PA for full with full attack bonus, because if PCs can do it so can NPCs . . . and those things are unpleasant to say the least. |
| TWG_Prometheus04-16-07, 07:21 AM | There is such a thing as sacrificing too much for AC feats and becoming a non-issue in battle even if the enemies can't hit you reliably, but more AC is never a bad thing. With the Strength bumps Dragon Disciples get from 1-4, they are in little danger of becoming obsolete in battle, (especially if they can squeeze in the ever-popular Melee Weapon Mastery) and the +3 effective AC increase if they go further, they are a good option for tanks, although Dwarves may find that they have to sacrifice too many build points for the Charisma required. Again, I'd never knock Blindsense either. Dragon Disciple 5-8 isn't worthless at all...it's just not for the standard pure-damage melee blender type. |
| Mommy was an Orc04-16-07, 09:28 AM | Again, I'd never knock Blindsense either. Dragon Disciple 5-8 isn't worthless at all...it's just not for the standard pure-damage melee blender type. The problem with Dragon Disciple 5-8 is that you're already a caster level 1 - and there are numerous options that will get you to caster level 4+(Ruathar, Unseen Seer - DD happens to have the 2 hardest prereqs as class skills) and once that happens, you can start filling in with fullBAB PrCs such as Spellsword/Eldritch Knight for 2 quick fighter feats in 4 levels + 3rd level spells. Blindsense is nice, but so is See Invisibility, False Life, Improved Toughness, and Arcane Strike. And if you're in Unseen Seer 4, you can pick up Listening Lorecall, too...Blindsense and Blindsight for when you need it. And that's completely ignoring what happens if you have a level in Rogue or something else with +1d6 Sneak - +3d6 Sneak Damage for that bite of yours can turn it into a real weapon... |
| TWG_Prometheus04-16-07, 09:47 AM | The problem with Dragon Disciple 5-8 is that you're already a caster level 1 - and there are numerous options that will get you to caster level 4+(Ruathar, Unseen Seer - DD happens to have the 2 hardest prereqs as class skills) and once that happens, you can start filling in with fullBAB PrCs such as Spellsword/Eldritch Knight for 2 quick fighter feats in 4 levels + 3rd level spells. Blindsense is nice, but so is See Invisibility, False Life, Improved Toughness, and Arcane Strike. And if you're in Unseen Seer 4, you can pick up Listening Lorecall, too...Blindsense and Blindsight for when you need it. And that's completely ignoring what happens if you have a level in Rogue or something else with +1d6 Sneak - +3d6 Sneak Damage for that bite of yours can turn it into a real weapon... None of that is an actual problem with Dragon Disciple 5-8, MwaO. It only means that you can do better than Dragon Disciple 5-8 or even Dragon Disciple 5-10. I don't think anyone is contesting that, but it still doesn't make Dragon Disciple 5+ problematic. It's merely non-optimal. Dragon Disciple holds to the power curve well enough to justify itself even if it's possible to make a better 15th level character. Most who are talking about it like it for flavor reasons anyway. |
| Reylance04-16-07, 11:30 AM | I was thinking of making a Casting DD instead of a Tank DD. What do you think of Warmage 3/Sorc 2 or Sorc 3/War 2 or even Warmage 4 / Sorc 1. The level of Sorc is to be able to cast some non-damage spells like grease and sleep. Heck I guess that means you could also have a level of Wizard and prepare a few different spells. Dragon Disciple is not a good prestige class from the perspective of being a caster. You really need caster levels for that. There's a prestige class in Races of the Dragon (Dragonheart Mage?) that combines draconic features (the Draconic Heritage-based feats and better breath weapons) with 8/10 spellcasting advancement. I'd be interested in trying it out. |
| Reylance04-16-07, 12:54 PM | I think Dragon Disciple is a good class for a fighting character, offering a lot of opportunities for greater character flexibility. First, the spellcasting level offers Will saves and, if a sorcerer, a familiar and combat utility spells. Second, the class has good Will saves and good skill options, including Spot and Listen. Third, you're always armed, and your claws go good with Power Attack when you're swallowed whole. You do need to decide if you want the four level dip or if you want to go all the way to half dragon. |
| ithardin04-16-07, 01:25 PM | Half-elf .... 8 Suel Arcanamach 9 Suel Arcanamach: Leadership 10 Suel Arcanamach 11 Suel Arcanamach .... Please keep your half-breed abominations out of our precious arcane knowledge :) Arno "the Shrike" Williams, Suel Arcanamach |