Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 03-29-07, 07:17 PM	I've hashed this guy out pretty well with my friends already, but I thought I'd run it past the forums for a validity check and maybe some suggestions. Human Fighter 4/Warmage 1/Dragon Disciple 10 Strength 15 Dexterity 12 Constitution 14 Intelligence 14 Wisdom 8 Charisma 12 01 Fighter 1: Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Current Level) 02 Fighter 2: Weapon Focus(Armor Spikes) 03 Fighter 3: Phalanx Fighting 04 Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization(Armor Spikes) - Strength 16 05 Warmage 1: Retrain Iron Will to Deadly Defense 06 Dragon Disciple 1: Practiced Spellcaster(Warmage) 07 Dragon Disciple 2: Strength 18 08 Dragon Disciple 3: Strength 19 09 Dragon Disciple 4: Multiattack - Strength 21 10 Dragon Disciple 5 11 Dragon Disciple 6: Constitution 16 12 Dragon Disciple 7: Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing) - Strength 22 13 Dragon Disciple 8: Intelligence 16 14 Dragon Disciple 9 15 Dragon Disciple 10: 15th level Feat - Strength 26, Charisma 14 The skill requirements in this build are pretty tight for qualifying for Dragon Disciple and Practiced Spellcaster so: Level 1 - Knowledge (Arcana) 2 cross-class ranks Level 3 - Knowledge (Arcana) 1 cross-class rank Level 5 - Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks Level 6 - Spellcraft 4 ranks Preferred Weapons & Armor: Mithril Breastplate, Mirthil Heavy Shield (5% ASF), Armor Spikes By level 7, his attack routine should be up to Armor Spikes/-5 Bite/-5 Claw, with the first iterative Armor Spikes attack following the level after. Taking Deadly Defense instead of Power Attack forced me into a lighter Mithril Breastplate armor, but allows me to keep the 30' movement as well as getting an average of 3.5 bonus damage on each attack at a cost of only -2 Attack. A steady Combat Expertise for 2 keeps the AC at only one less than it would be with no Combat Expertise in Fullplate. Another player in the area is planning on a Cleric with Phalanx Fighting, making the feat worth the investment twice over when he's at the table. When he's not, Phalanx Fighting still meets the power curve (+1 AC for a feat) given the weaponry choices I've already made. (Hopefully I'll be able to talk some other people in the area into Phalanx Fighting too!) Warmage over Bard or Beguiler keeps Armored Caster but gives me some neat tricks with Practiced Spellcaster, such as a 1d4+6d6+2+Strength charging claw attack when I can precast Shocking Grasp before a battle starts, as well as worthwhile ranged utility for the times I really don't want to get close to a bad guy. (3d4+5 Magic Missiles if everything else fails) The 15th level feat may be reserved for Leadership to enter the top echelons of Nyrond's IX Legion, but it's otherwise non-essential to the build, as appropriate for a 15th level character. I note in advance that taking more than four levels in Dragon Disciple is not optimal. It's what I want to do, though, and it does provide a lot of perks to justify the expense. (More natural AC, blindsense, Con bump, Dragon Apotheosis, Wings) What I would like to fit into the build if I could find a way: Improved Grapple. Grappling is far more effective than tripping against some creatures, but the AoO is obnoxious. I could probably sacrifice Multiattack for Improved Grapple if I had to (Gloves of Dexterity +2 to meet the Dex 13 requirement) but it's unclear to me whether having natural attacks in any way counts as having Improved Unarmed Strike. I suspect it doesn't. There isn't room for a two-drop Monk dip in the build if I'm going to make Dragon Apotheosis before retiring either, and besides...that would suggest a flurry/natural attack routine that I don't want to get into. The build maintains Iron Will until 5th to keep out of the negatives and zero modifier range on my Will Save. Party members appreciate it I hear. A Belt of Giant Strength +4 will be critical to this build since the natural attacks won't get any benefit from enhancement modifiers. When is generally a good level to start saving for a horribly expensive but very important item like that? My gut tells me that around level 6 sounds right.
Mommy was an Orc 03-29-07, 09:01 PM	Why are you going Armor Spikes with this - especially with such a high strength? In a sense, you're a TWF build that gets 1d6 of bonus damage. That's not a lot, especially in the context that you could be doing significantly more. I'd go Monk 2/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1 - Sorcerer spells are a lot better for you(Critical Strike, Master's Touch, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Fist of Stone) are all pretty good choices. Plus you can then get Practiced Spellcaster, which puts you at the point where you can qualify for CWI - and thereby read scrolls to craft magic items...
TWG_Prometheus 03-31-07, 09:08 AM	Took a while to review the build in light of MwAO's suggestions, and I'm not sure why the armor spikes would be particularly a bad idea given a high Strength score. Light weapons don't fail to work well with high Strength scores, they fail to work well with Power Attack, which is a different thing. High Strength scores and Power Attack tend to go together well, but the statistic that actually provides the Power behind Power Attack is different: a melee character's Base Attack Bonus, a metric that a full Dragon Disciple tends to be short on. I looked at it this way: Power Attack: +2 damage for -2 attack - can go for more Two-handed power attack: +4 damage for -2 attack - can go for more - costs a claw attack Deadly Defense: +3.5 damage and +2 AC for -2 attack - can't go for more Given that the character is short on BAB (even more than my Gish is) I find it unlikely that I'll want to Power Attack or Combat Expertise for more than two anyway in most situations. Did a little research into Strength application into damage and got the following result. We're ignoring iterative attacks here because all builds would get those. Assumes Multiattack: Shield/Armor Spikes build: Spikes (+0 for x1 Str), Claw (-2 for x.5 Str), Bite (-2 for x.5 Str) = x2 Strength application Armor Spikes build: Spikes (+0 for x1 Str), Claw/Claw (-2 for x1 Str), Bite (-2 for x.5 Str) = x2.5 Strength application Flurry build: Flurry/Flurry (-2 for x2 Str), Claw/Claw (-4 for x1 Str), Bite (-2 for x.5 Str) = x3.5 Strength application Two-handed build: (+0 for x1.5 Str), Bite (-2 for x.5 Str) = x2 Strength Application (x.5 Strength application more than other builds per iterative attack, so this is better than it looks) Obviously, the Flurry build is technically a better 'Strength application' build from that standpoint. However, the loss of a 5th Base Attack as well as the natural -2 to hit on all attacks caused by Flurry AND the inability of such a build to get Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery makes me question whether the increase in raw Strength application would be worth an increased miss chance against an average foe. (One that isn't trivial to hit) I'm sure that Monk 2 would fit spectacularly into the build if I wasn't planning on Dragon Disciple 10 and could fit more Fighter levels or even Pious Templar levels in, but it just isn't the case here. Moreover, the loss of armor and shield to go with the top Strength application build would cost me a mountain of Armor Class. This character doesn't have the Dex/Wisdom to pull off a Monk build unless I want to be a damage sponge like a typical Barbarian rager build, and I don't have the Rage-based Constitution for that. (But I COULD get it) When Weapon Specialization, cheaper enhancement bonuses for Armor Spikes as opposed to Unarmed Strikes, and Melee Weapon Mastery at 12th were figured in, I found that the Armor Spikes/Claw/Claw/Bite build actually had the highest damage curve, assuming the originally stated progression path. I perhaps could have made a mistake in my math, but that's what I came up with. The Shield/Armor Spikes/Claw/Bite build was around 18% lower in damage than that, but was also the only build I ran calculations on that had a relevant armor class. Assuming only +2 armor enhancement bonuses and no shield wall buddy to work with Phalanx Fighting, I got an AC estimate of 29 without using any deflection bonuses or natural armor enhancement bonuses at level 12. (APL+17) The fact that the same build can use a move action to shift to what I found to be my highest-damage build was very attractive. Level 12 AC = 10 + 2 Dexterity with Gloves of Dexterity +2 + 3 class ability natural armor + 5 Mithril Breastplate + 2 Mithril Heavy Shield + 2 Combat Expertise for Deadly Defense + 1 Phalanx Fighting + 2 armor enhancement + 2 shield enhancement = 29 - I consider this a very low estimate, and it is easily buffable via spells and Combat Expertise/Shield Wall. In regard to the Warmage vs Sorcerer pick, I had originally intended to go with Sorcerer myself. My intended spell selection was something like Swift Expeditious Retreat (for some truly ridiculous Charging) and Critical Strike in order to avoid ASF. MwAO's use of somatic spells and a DD/Sorcerer appears to assume a Monk build I'm not finding to be efficient, as noted above. Two of the spells he listed as good choices for a Dragon Disciple (I agree with that list) are also on the Warmage spell list, (Chill Touch and Fist of Stone) and a Fighter 4/Warmage 1 can cast the same spells with only 5% ASF from a Mithril Heavy Shield if I cast the spells without the shield equipped, as well as having additional ranged utility if needed. I can definitely see how a Monk/Dragon Disciple would work very well, but I suspect that progression path has a lot more synergy with DD4 and not as much with DD10. ------------------------- Just a rules check: I'm pretty confident that I recall seeing a rule that touch attacks could be delivered with unarmed strikes so long as you hit the target's normal AC instead of their touch AC, and I thought that ruling would also work with natural weapons. (but not armor spikes) However, I'm having trouble locating the rule now. Does anyone know where that is? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the natural weapons qualifying (or not qualifying) as Improved Unarmed Strike for the purpose of obtaining Improved Grapple?
Mommy was an Orc 03-31-07, 10:04 AM	Took a while to review the build in light of MwAO's suggestions, and I'm not sure why the armor spikes would be particularly a bad idea given a high Strength score. Light weapons don't fail to work well with high Strength scores, they fail to work well with Power Attack, which is a different thing. You can't swing armor spikes two-handed...if you're carrying a shield, I'd go Improved Shield Bash - get a Heavy Spiked Shield and do WS with that. With the Bashing property, you can do 2d6 and wield it two-handed when you need to do so.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 12:07 AM	Let me explain some details on my thinking here - you're claiming that Dragon Disciple represents a hit to your BAB, and that's why Power Attack won't work for you. But that's not really all that true - At 9th level, you'll have +4 Strength over the usual Fighter and will have spent 2 BAB for that. i.e. you're effectively the same BAB at that point. Prior to that and right after that, you're behind by 1 - but your to-hit chance is very similar to a straight fighter build with your MWM, where you replace your iteratives with a claw and bite. You're not limited in using Power Attack, you're limited in how much you can Power Attack. Note there's a feat called Versatile something in PHB II which lets you switch what kind of damage your unarmed strike does.
TWG_Prometheus 04-01-07, 02:49 PM	It's not so much that Power Attack would be specifically bad for a Dragon Disciple, but that the lower BAB suggests that I'll get less out of it than a full BAB progression fighter. The Strength modifiers can act as a BAB replacement, and do in more common DD4 builds, but those same builds don't drop BAB for DD5 or DD9, and there's no Strength-as-BAB replacement during that long period of levels. Due to this, I'm not expecting that I would want to Power Attack for more than two in most situations. This is also somewhat of a playstyle decision, as I usually go light on my Power Attack even with two-handed fighting builds unless I'm fighting a very low AC opponent. Those factors make Deadly Defense's limited but very efficient bonuses look attractive in comparison to Power Attack. I note though that I don't actually disagree with the notion that a Power Attack build could work very well here. If I was using Power Attack instead of Deadly Defense, I'd probably shift to a Heavy Spiked Shield with Improved Shield Bash attack strategy and shift the armor to Fullplate. That would also lead me toward non-Somatic Sorcerer spells rather than Warmage since Armored Caster wouldn't help. I don't personally see the disadvantage of not being able to two-hand armor spikes as being a very severe one. The damage lost by not being able to two-hand a Dragon Disciple's manufactured weapon is made up for largely by not having to devote any hands to the use of that weapon, and essentially gaining claw attacks out of it. Since each claw gives 1/2 Strength application, it would take an iterative attacks with a two-handed weapon to get the same Strength application rate as an Armor Spikes/Claw/Claw/Bite routine and a second iterative to exceed it. (DD 10 only gets +11 BAB at level 15) Trading off one of those Claw attacks for a Shield to boost my armor class depending on the situation is just an optional perk I'll either use or not depending on the matter at hand. Largely I think we agree with each other, but are just ending up on different sides of the same coin. In most situations, Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon, using flurry with a Dragon Disciples additional claw attacks, or using armor spikes and the claw attacks will work out to roughly the same damage after miss rates are figured in. Two-hand Power Attacking has a lot of advantages when fighting against DR and I'll likely keep some big DR-break weapons around for that reason. The Armor Spikes route gives me options that two-hand power attacking lacks in terms of the ability to go high-defense when I want to (Improved Shield Bash would be a way around that) and I personally like that tradeoff the best. Since no one has spoken up about any major errors in the build, I'll assume that if I've made any mistakes they're at least not obvious. Thank you for the input...even if we don't agree it at least forced me to determine the justification for the build myself and become more familiar with the tradeoffs I'll be making. As far as Grappling goes, I'll probably just try using Combat Expertise for five and take the attack of opportunity. Chances are pretty good if I'm wearing a shield that they'll miss, and a Touch AC attack with two natural weapons should be fairly reliable against most opponents. High Strength and a 3/4-ish BAB ought to be enough to make it work when it's important that I do so.
Iswald 04-02-07, 10:41 PM	...if you're carrying a shield, I'd go Improved Shield Bash - get a Heavy Spiked Shield and do WS with that. With the Bashing property, you can do 2d6 and wield it two-handed when you need to do so. Would it do 2d6 or 1d10? Originally, I'd thought you should read across but, after reading someone else's post, maybe you should read down the chart (PHB pg 114).