Dragonheart Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragonheart Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
delewobmesid
04-13-07, 11:58 AM My Triad has opened up the Dragonheart Mage class to the County of Urnst; what I'm wondering is the prestidge class worth giving up a couple of caster levels, and if so, what dragon heritadges feats make the most sense?
Sieylianna
04-13-07, 12:46 PM I'd like to have access to it for my sorcerer, but it's not offered in my region.

It's all about maximizing your dragon breath. IMO, it's worth the sacrifice, but it depends on your breath weapon type. There are lots of creatures which are immune or resistant to various elemtnts, so you need to think about what you commonly encounter in your region.

Ed
delewobmesid
04-13-07, 04:21 PM how does one 'max out' the breath weapon ability from the Draconic feats?
human,8,14,14,14,8,16 Draconic Heritage (lightning?),Draconic Breath retrain out at 6th;

what feats pump the DC/Damage of the Draconic Breath feat?
danhenneke
04-17-07, 10:45 PM what feats pump the DC/Damage of the Draconic Breath feat?

Breath Channeling Feats from Races of the Dragon.
lostpike
04-17-07, 10:57 PM Arent those feats limited?
trollbill
04-18-07, 10:30 AM I'm looking at asking for a special mission to gain access with my Sorcerer at 10th. The way I look at it, if you aren't going to make it to 10th level in the class before you retire, it isn't worth all 10 levels. Since I couldn't get access back when I was 5th, I don't plan on taking more than 5 levels of it. The bonuses to you breath weapon at 10th make the 2 caster level hit worth it, but only if you can get that high.

Draconic Feat-wise:
Draconic Heritage: You must have this, of course.
Draconic Breath: You get this for free when you become a Dragonheart Mage but it is so incredibly useful I would recommend getting it as early as you can and retraining to a different feat when you get your first level of Dragonheart Mage.
Draconic Claw: Useful if your build has you casting defensively when threatened a lot and you have some strength. Also useful in tight binds as you are never without a light weapon. If you multiclass with a fighter-type build it can be really nice.
Draconic Flight: One of several kinda-lame feats because they only function for a breif period after casting a spell. This one is probably the most useful.
Draconic Legacy: A must for any sorcerer going this route.
Draconic Power: Useful only if you want to focus on a particular type of energy spell, which is usually a bad idea for a sorcerer.
Draconic Presense: This one is kinda neat but is going to be a pain to your DMs in keeping tract of its effects and will slow down combats accordingly.
Draconic Resistance: Generally useful. This one is worthwhile.
Draconic Skin: If you really want some AC, its okay.
Draconic Persuasion: [NONC] Since most Charisma based skill checks occur BEFORE you start casting spells this one is only useful if you make a build designed to specifically make use of it.
Draconic Toughness: [NONC] Useful only if you average 1 Draconic feat per 2 levels. Otherwise Improved Toughness is better.

Non-Draconic feat-wise I would definitely look at Ability Focus [breath weapon].

Spell-wise I would look at requesting a special mission to gain access to Breath Weapon Substitution when you get close to 10th.
Reylance
04-18-07, 01:26 PM Don't forget the absolutely glorious (and NONC) Draconic Arcane Grace (I think that's the name), from Races of the Dragon. As an immediate action, burn an arcane spell slot to add the spell slot's level to your saving throw. It's especially good when you have an idea the exact saving throw you need.
delewobmesid
04-18-07, 02:29 PM What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'?
trollbill
04-18-07, 02:50 PM What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'?

I don't consider any of them a 'must,' but many can be very useful. Since a Sorcerer's biggest weakness is versitility, metamagic feats like Energy Substitution and Sculpt Spell can be especially useful. My own Sorcerer gets by with Metamagic Rods.
copper_wyrmling
04-18-07, 07:53 PM I don't consider any of them a 'must,' but many can be very useful. Since a Sorcerer's biggest weakness is versitility, metamagic feats like Energy Substitution and Sculpt Spell can be especially useful. My own Sorcerer gets by with Metamagic Rods.

*sigh* My L12 sorcerer has been hoping for access to a full metamagic rod of energy substitution for three years. No luck so far... (I have seen access. Once. With a different character...)

Your metamagic feats depend on your planned spell selection. Figure them both out at the same time. If you want to blast with direct damage, take Empower, as it's almost required to break the d6/level damage cap and it means you can get by with far fewer damage spells among your precious spells known (i.e. you can still use low-level spells as effective blasting spells at high level, and spend your high-level spells-known slots on other stuff, if you pile enough metamagic on). If you want to use a lot of save-or-be-in-trouble spells and focus on high save DCs, Heighten may be worthwhile (again, you want to make a few low-level spells known go a long way). Sculpt Spell is nice if you have a lot of area spells, particularly ones with small areas (grease, glitterdust, shadowbinding, etc) And so on... if you're using a lot of metamagic, Rapid Metamagic (from Complete Mage) is a nice feat in its own right, and opens up Quicken Spell.

My sorcerer has Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray and Rapid Metamagic, and will have Quicken Spell next level (retraining) unless something weird happens. She'll probably take Ocular Spell (NONC) at L15 - it's hard to resist a feat that lets you shoot rays out of your eyes when you're playing a ray-specialist wild mage :)

I've also seen a very effective sorcerer who at L12 will have (iirc) Enlarge Spell, Sculpt Spell and Chain Spell as her metamagics. Her direct-damage option is Telekinesis, which doesn't metamagic very well. (It synergizes rather nicely with Chained Greater Magic Weapon, though...)

It just depends on what you want to do, but yeah, Empower is almost a must for anyone with an interest in doing direct damage. Sorcerers don't all have to do that, though ;)
JamesMaissen
04-18-07, 07:59 PM What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'?

The ones that compliment your spells and role in the party. Empower is useful as it lessens the pressure on damage spells for your spells known list.

I like transdimensional spell, sculpt, and empower on 'traditional' half+ blaster sorcerers.

Some metamagics are more sorcerer focused and some are more wizard focused. Pick the ones that will augment your spells the best. Go with a theme/ party role and cover what you can and let go of what you can't cover.

-James
trollbill
04-18-07, 09:26 PM *sigh* My L12 sorcerer has been hoping for access to a full metamagic rod of energy substitution for three years. No luck so far... (I have seen access. Once. With a different character...)

I'm sure you don't want to hear this but I just passed on a Metamagic Rod of Fire Substitution. Considering Ray of Frost is the only spell I know that deals energy damage, it is useless to me. If I want to deal damage I cast Magic Missile or breath on it, which I can't substitute unless I get access to a particular 5th-level spell. And if I every get that spell, I doubt I will need anything but my breath weapon for damage.

BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer?
magebeast
04-18-07, 11:37 PM BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer?

The feat Rapid Metamagic.
copper_wyrmling
04-18-07, 11:45 PM I'm sure you don't want to hear this but I just passed on a Metamagic Rod of Fire Substitution.

If it's in a high-APL Core, :) I really doubt it's in a Core though :(

(and fire sub is the one I want least... the whole point is to make those 24d6 metamagicked scorching rays do something other than fire damage ;) )

Considering Ray of Frost is the only spell I know that deals energy damage, it is useless to me. If I want to deal damage I cast Magic Missile or breath on it, which I can't substitute unless I get access to a particular 5th-level spell. And if I every get that spell, I doubt I will need anything but my breath weapon for damage.

Yeah, while for me, Energy Substitution has always been the next feat that my sorc would pick if she had a free feat slot... retraining gave her two free feat slots while simultaneously granting access to Rapid Metamagic and Quicken :rolleyes:

BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer?

Rapid Metamagic feat. (Someone asked for clarification on whether it worked with Quicken around the time of the LGCS revision, Britt said yes (and left his Circle signature on ;) ) )
magebeast
04-19-07, 10:32 AM Rapid Metamagic feat. (Someone asked for clarification on whether it worked with Quicken around the time of the LGCS revision, Britt said yes (and left his Circle signature on ;) ) )

That was me!
ToddMorgan
05-15-07, 06:25 PM To gain access to this PrC could I just start a character (sorcerer) in the County? Or is there a meta org one must belong to?
Reylance
05-16-07, 01:45 PM According to what I read, you must first belong to the Hails from an Archbarony metaorg, which is a no-cost metaorg with requirement Home Region Must Be County of Urnst, no benefit outside of getting DC 15 Gather Information information in your home archbarony, and serves as the prerequisite for other metaorgs.

Then you join the Obsidian Conclave, which requires the Hailing From metaorg and being an arcane caster. Dragonheart Mage access comes from the Adept tier, which requires 3rd level arcane spellcasting, 3 TU, and 200 gp.

Thus, you'll have to wait until 7th level to take the class, which isn't a bad thing, since having 3rd level spells will help mitigate the immediate loss of a spellcasting level.
delewobmesid
05-16-07, 02:05 PM umm...you can get in at 6th, which isn't a bad thing; the meta org/prc lets you qualify at 6th, which if your going to go for this class makes more sense...
trollbill
05-16-07, 04:01 PM umm...you can get in at 6th, which isn't a bad thing; the meta org/prc lets you qualify at 6th, which if your going to go for this class makes more sense...

The Metaorg requires you to be able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells to become an Adept which then opens up the PrC to you. Since you have to have at least 1 level of Sorcerer to have qualify for Dragonheart Mage, that means the earliest you could qualify for Adept is 6th-level, so you can't take your first level of Dragonheart Mage till 7th.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
delewobmesid 04-13-07, 11:58 AM	My Triad has opened up the Dragonheart Mage class to the County of Urnst; what I'm wondering is the prestidge class worth giving up a couple of caster levels, and if so, what dragon heritadges feats make the most sense?
Sieylianna 04-13-07, 12:46 PM	I'd like to have access to it for my sorcerer, but it's not offered in my region. It's all about maximizing your dragon breath. IMO, it's worth the sacrifice, but it depends on your breath weapon type. There are lots of creatures which are immune or resistant to various elemtnts, so you need to think about what you commonly encounter in your region. Ed
delewobmesid 04-13-07, 04:21 PM	how does one 'max out' the breath weapon ability from the Draconic feats? human,8,14,14,14,8,16 Draconic Heritage (lightning?),Draconic Breath retrain out at 6th; what feats pump the DC/Damage of the Draconic Breath feat?
danhenneke 04-17-07, 10:45 PM	what feats pump the DC/Damage of the Draconic Breath feat? Breath Channeling Feats from Races of the Dragon.
lostpike 04-17-07, 10:57 PM	Arent those feats limited?
trollbill 04-18-07, 10:30 AM	I'm looking at asking for a special mission to gain access with my Sorcerer at 10th. The way I look at it, if you aren't going to make it to 10th level in the class before you retire, it isn't worth all 10 levels. Since I couldn't get access back when I was 5th, I don't plan on taking more than 5 levels of it. The bonuses to you breath weapon at 10th make the 2 caster level hit worth it, but only if you can get that high. Draconic Feat-wise: Draconic Heritage: You must have this, of course. Draconic Breath: You get this for free when you become a Dragonheart Mage but it is so incredibly useful I would recommend getting it as early as you can and retraining to a different feat when you get your first level of Dragonheart Mage. Draconic Claw: Useful if your build has you casting defensively when threatened a lot and you have some strength. Also useful in tight binds as you are never without a light weapon. If you multiclass with a fighter-type build it can be really nice. Draconic Flight: One of several kinda-lame feats because they only function for a breif period after casting a spell. This one is probably the most useful. Draconic Legacy: A must for any sorcerer going this route. Draconic Power: Useful only if you want to focus on a particular type of energy spell, which is usually a bad idea for a sorcerer. Draconic Presense: This one is kinda neat but is going to be a pain to your DMs in keeping tract of its effects and will slow down combats accordingly. Draconic Resistance: Generally useful. This one is worthwhile. Draconic Skin: If you really want some AC, its okay. Draconic Persuasion: [NONC] Since most Charisma based skill checks occur BEFORE you start casting spells this one is only useful if you make a build designed to specifically make use of it. Draconic Toughness: [NONC] Useful only if you average 1 Draconic feat per 2 levels. Otherwise Improved Toughness is better. Non-Draconic feat-wise I would definitely look at Ability Focus [breath weapon]. Spell-wise I would look at requesting a special mission to gain access to Breath Weapon Substitution when you get close to 10th.
Reylance 04-18-07, 01:26 PM	Don't forget the absolutely glorious (and NONC) Draconic Arcane Grace (I think that's the name), from Races of the Dragon. As an immediate action, burn an arcane spell slot to add the spell slot's level to your saving throw. It's especially good when you have an idea the exact saving throw you need.
delewobmesid 04-18-07, 02:29 PM	What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'?
trollbill 04-18-07, 02:50 PM	What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'? I don't consider any of them a 'must,' but many can be very useful. Since a Sorcerer's biggest weakness is versitility, metamagic feats like Energy Substitution and Sculpt Spell can be especially useful. My own Sorcerer gets by with Metamagic Rods.
copper_wyrmling 04-18-07, 07:53 PM	I don't consider any of them a 'must,' but many can be very useful. Since a Sorcerer's biggest weakness is versitility, metamagic feats like Energy Substitution and Sculpt Spell can be especially useful. My own Sorcerer gets by with Metamagic Rods. sigh My L12 sorcerer has been hoping for access to a full metamagic rod of energy substitution for three years. No luck so far... (I have seen access. Once. With a different character...) Your metamagic feats depend on your planned spell selection. Figure them both out at the same time. If you want to blast with direct damage, take Empower, as it's almost required to break the d6/level damage cap and it means you can get by with far fewer damage spells among your precious spells known (i.e. you can still use low-level spells as effective blasting spells at high level, and spend your high-level spells-known slots on other stuff, if you pile enough metamagic on). If you want to use a lot of save-or-be-in-trouble spells and focus on high save DCs, Heighten may be worthwhile (again, you want to make a few low-level spells known go a long way). Sculpt Spell is nice if you have a lot of area spells, particularly ones with small areas (grease, glitterdust, shadowbinding, etc) And so on... if you're using a lot of metamagic, Rapid Metamagic (from Complete Mage) is a nice feat in its own right, and opens up Quicken Spell. My sorcerer has Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray and Rapid Metamagic, and will have Quicken Spell next level (retraining) unless something weird happens. She'll probably take Ocular Spell (NONC) at L15 - it's hard to resist a feat that lets you shoot rays out of your eyes when you're playing a ray-specialist wild mage :) I've also seen a very effective sorcerer who at L12 will have (iirc) Enlarge Spell, Sculpt Spell and Chain Spell as her metamagics. Her direct-damage option is Telekinesis, which doesn't metamagic very well. (It synergizes rather nicely with Chained Greater Magic Weapon, though...) It just depends on what you want to do, but yeah, Empower is almost a must for anyone with an interest in doing direct damage. Sorcerers don't all have to do that, though ;)
JamesMaissen 04-18-07, 07:59 PM	What meta magic feats are a must for a Sorcerer? Empower Spell? Is there a good thread on what spells are 'must have'? The ones that compliment your spells and role in the party. Empower is useful as it lessens the pressure on damage spells for your spells known list. I like transdimensional spell, sculpt, and empower on 'traditional' half+ blaster sorcerers. Some metamagics are more sorcerer focused and some are more wizard focused. Pick the ones that will augment your spells the best. Go with a theme/ party role and cover what you can and let go of what you can't cover. -James
trollbill 04-18-07, 09:26 PM	sigh My L12 sorcerer has been hoping for access to a full metamagic rod of energy substitution for three years. No luck so far... (I have seen access. Once. With a different character...) I'm sure you don't want to hear this but I just passed on a Metamagic Rod of Fire Substitution. Considering Ray of Frost is the only spell I know that deals energy damage, it is useless to me. If I want to deal damage I cast Magic Missile or breath on it, which I can't substitute unless I get access to a particular 5th-level spell. And if I every get that spell, I doubt I will need anything but my breath weapon for damage. BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer?
magebeast 04-18-07, 11:37 PM	BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer? The feat Rapid Metamagic.
copper_wyrmling 04-18-07, 11:45 PM	I'm sure you don't want to hear this but I just passed on a Metamagic Rod of Fire Substitution. If it's in a high-APL Core, :) I really doubt it's in a Core though :( (and fire sub is the one I want least... the whole point is to make those 24d6 metamagicked scorching rays do something other than fire damage ;) ) Considering Ray of Frost is the only spell I know that deals energy damage, it is useless to me. If I want to deal damage I cast Magic Missile or breath on it, which I can't substitute unless I get access to a particular 5th-level spell. And if I every get that spell, I doubt I will need anything but my breath weapon for damage. Yeah, while for me, Energy Substitution has always been the next feat that my sorc would pick if she had a free feat slot... retraining gave her two free feat slots while simultaneously granting access to Rapid Metamagic and Quicken :rolleyes: BTW, how are you planning on getting use out of Quicken Spell? Did you get access to the alternate class feature for sorcerer? Rapid Metamagic feat. (Someone asked for clarification on whether it worked with Quicken around the time of the LGCS revision, Britt said yes (and left his Circle signature on ;) ) )
magebeast 04-19-07, 10:32 AM	Rapid Metamagic feat. (Someone asked for clarification on whether it worked with Quicken around the time of the LGCS revision, Britt said yes (and left his Circle signature on ;) ) ) That was me!
ToddMorgan 05-15-07, 06:25 PM	To gain access to this PrC could I just start a character (sorcerer) in the County? Or is there a meta org one must belong to?
Reylance 05-16-07, 01:45 PM	According to what I read, you must first belong to the Hails from an Archbarony metaorg, which is a no-cost metaorg with requirement Home Region Must Be County of Urnst, no benefit outside of getting DC 15 Gather Information information in your home archbarony, and serves as the prerequisite for other metaorgs. Then you join the Obsidian Conclave, which requires the Hailing From metaorg and being an arcane caster. Dragonheart Mage access comes from the Adept tier, which requires 3rd level arcane spellcasting, 3 TU, and 200 gp. Thus, you'll have to wait until 7th level to take the class, which isn't a bad thing, since having 3rd level spells will help mitigate the immediate loss of a spellcasting level.
delewobmesid 05-16-07, 02:05 PM	umm...you can get in at 6th, which isn't a bad thing; the meta org/prc lets you qualify at 6th, which if your going to go for this class makes more sense...
trollbill 05-16-07, 04:01 PM	umm...you can get in at 6th, which isn't a bad thing; the meta org/prc lets you qualify at 6th, which if your going to go for this class makes more sense... The Metaorg requires you to be able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells to become an Adept which then opens up the PrC to you. Since you have to have at least 1 level of Sorcerer to have qualify for Dragonheart Mage, that means the earliest you could qualify for Adept is 6th-level, so you can't take your first level of Dragonheart Mage till 7th.