Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 05-08-07, 06:28 PM	I'm looking to build a druid who focuses on his animal companion. It will be my primary focus, then spells, and last my own combat skills. I was thinking of making a snow elf as I haven't made on yet. I could work towards Animal Lord or maybe Beastmaster. I know a lot of people say that straight druid is just as good as many prestiage classes as it is so versatile, but I'm interested in any suggestions.
Japangirl 05-08-07, 06:58 PM	My animal-with-a-druid-cohort build is really simple, but I'm still satisfied with it. Admittedly, that character is still level 1, so it's hard to say how well it will work. But it's just druid 14/beastmaster 1, with Natural Bond if I ever get access to it and using a Brown Bear as the animal companion. Then when I can wild shape, I spend all day as a tiny bird or snake taking full cover behind my bear except when actually casting something (Natural Spell as a 6th level feat).
Jay_Ibero_911 05-08-07, 08:09 PM	Alternately there is Wiz3/Druid3/Beastmaster1/Arcane Hierophant8...get a smart beasty, and can benefit from Natural Bond too..Natural Bond does nothing for a straight druid or druid beastmaster...
clannagh 05-08-07, 08:26 PM	Alternately there is Wiz3/Druid3/Beastmaster1/Arcane Hierophant8...get a smart beasty, and can benefit from Natural Bond too..Natural Bond does nothing for a straight druid or druid beastmaster... This option also lets you apply familiar enhancement feats/spells to the animal companian (enhance/augment familiar etc). I suspect the downside might be that animal growth may no longer work on it.
Necrochaos 05-08-07, 09:24 PM	I love this build. I was thinking Snow Elf, since I have the card and I've been wanting to use it. Do I take Druid first and alternate with Wizard, take Beastmaster at 7 and Hierophant at 8? Take Skill Focus first level? I would make sure to have a 16 Wis and Int 16 and at least a 10 or 12 Cha. I'm not sure what other feats I would put in here. Natural Bond if I get access. Practiced Spell Caster?
bitznarf 05-08-07, 10:16 PM	You could also go the Dru3/Wiz3/MT2/AH7 if you don't want to lose another spellcasting level.
clannagh 05-08-07, 10:59 PM	I love this build. I was thinking Snow Elf, since I have the card and I've been wanting to use it. Do I take Druid first and alternate with Wizard, take Beastmaster at 7 and Hierophant at 8? Take Skill Focus first level? I would make sure to have a 16 Wis and Int 16 and at least a 10 or 12 Cha. I'm not sure what other feats I would put in here. Natural Bond if I get access. Practiced Spell Caster? You kinda need practiced spell caster twice cos your caster levels suck otherwise. Natural Bond is good though. Most people also take natural spell so they can wildshape and cast though cheeky_kitty from these boards has a summoning sorceror AH variant that works well and she dropped natural spell and went with spell focus conjuration and augmented summoning.
Umbra_Kaitou 05-09-07, 12:15 AM	Pardon the n00b question but, how exactly does the druid/WIzard combination work. I was under the impression a druids animal cant be counted as a familiar? Or is it just solely for the Arcane Heirophant?
clannagh 05-09-07, 12:52 AM	Pardon the n00b question but, how exactly does the druid/WIzard combination work. I was under the impression a druids animal cant be counted as a familiar? Or is it just solely for the Arcane Heirophant? you need something special like arcane heirophant
Japangirl 05-09-07, 01:09 AM	Alternately there is Wiz3/Druid3/Beastmaster1/Arcane Hierophant8...get a smart beasty, and can benefit from Natural Bond too..Natural Bond does nothing for a straight druid or druid beastmaster... I really don't want to start up this argument again, but my understanding of the rules is that it would offset the penalties for taking a higher-leveled animal companion (ie a druid level -3 or whatever companion). It is definitely table variation though.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 01:46 AM	To be honest, the first I ever heard of the possibility of it offsetting the cost of higher level companions is on this board. I've *never* seen it ruled that way.
Lupo 05-09-07, 02:35 AM	To be honest, the first I ever heard of the possibility of it offsetting the cost of higher level companions is on this board. I've *never* seen it ruled that way. it CAN be interpreted this way, especcially when using the FAQ example of wild mage with practiced spellcaster, but until there is an official ruling on this i wouldn't build anything around it - as one might have a wasted feat at most tables AND having a rules discussion with the DM is most often a bad start of an adventure. if a ruling falls to this side one can always retrain into it ;) ciao martin m. ps: my druid would love to have his animal companion being "promoted" one tier up - he is a straight druid, while the druid/beastmaster combo, with this feat as icing on the cake would become nightmares at the edge of total brokeness. as a DM i wouldn't like such a combo, so in spite of my druid's drooling for it, i am fine with the conservative interpretation - although i am fine with allowing rangers to beef up their animals a little bit - there the question is wether each level adds half an effective druid level or every second level adding a druid level - the fiirst reading wouldn't allow natural bound to grant a bonus, as it only applies to levels that normally do not grant any animal companion progression.
King Kashue 05-09-07, 02:50 AM	it CAN be interpreted this way, especcially when using the FAQ example of wild mage with practiced spellcaster, but until there is an official ruling on this i wouldn't build anything around it - as one might have a wasted feat at most tables AND having a rules discussion with the DM is most often a bad start of an adventure. if a ruling falls to this side one can always retrain into it ;) ciao martin m. ps: my druid would love to have his animal companion being "promoted" one tier up - he is a straight druid, while the druid/beastmaster combo, with this feat as icing on the cake would become nightmares at the edge of total brokeness. as a DM i wouldn't like such a combo, so in spite of my druid's drooling for it, i am fine with the conservative interpretation - although i am fine with allowing rangers to beef up their animals a little bit - there the question is wether each level adds half an effective druid level or every second level adding a druid level - the fiirst reading wouldn't allow natural bound to grant a bonus, as it only applies to levels that normally do not grant any animal companion progression. I think the FAQ's ruling on Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster is nonsense, however, in the light of that ruling, I can't find any sound logic that says Natural Bond doesn't work the same way for a Druid (As much as I want to say "nope, doesn't work" :D)... The language and terms are nearly identical, substituting "Effective Druid Level" for "Effective Caster Level"...It seems a really narrow reading of the FAQ to say it doesn't work (though, as I said, I think the FAQ made a bad ruling on Practiced/Wild Mage)... However, I don't actually think it's overpowered. It's a bump of +2 HD, +2 Nat Armor, +1 Str/Dex...For a character, that'd be really amazing, but for an animal, it's a nice, though not staggering, boost, and seems a powerful, though reasonable feat (even if I think that's not how it's supposed to work ;))
Japangirl 05-09-07, 03:05 AM	I do agree that it shouldn't work that way and even though I plan on using it to the best of my abilities, I don't really like it. But I too came to the conclusion that it worked after looking at the FAQ's (erroneous) ruling on Practiced Spellcaster + Wild Mage.
Lupo 05-09-07, 03:20 AM	I think the FAQ's ruling on Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster is nonsense, however, in the light of that ruling, I can't find any sound logic that says Natural Bond doesn't work the same way for a Druid (As much as I want to say "nope, doesn't work" :D)... The language and terms are nearly identical, substituting "Effective Druid Level" for "Effective Caster Level"...It seems a really narrow reading of the FAQ to say it doesn't work (though, as I said, I think the FAQ made a bad ruling on Practiced/Wild Mage)... However, I don't actually think it's overpowered. It's a bump of +2 HD, +2 Nat Armor, +1 Str/Dex...For a character, that'd be really amazing, but for an animal, it's a nice, though not staggering, boost, and seems a powerful, though reasonable feat (even if I think that's not how it's supposed to work ;)) the boost kicks in when combined natural bond with the one-level-dip in beastmaster - promoting the animal companion TWO tiers up :D having a tiger animal companion with a druid 5/beastmaster 1 that gains the benefits of +4 HD, +4 natural armor, +2 str, +2 dex, 3 bonus tricks, share spells, evasion, devotion and an additional feat - take power attack just for fun - at APL 6 is scary :smirk: . ciao martin m.
clannagh 05-09-07, 03:43 AM	Just be careful guys as Natural bond cannot take the companion above your hit die. That is a circle ruling. http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#naturalbond Natural Bond and Companion Advancement Source: perrenland Message #16985, January 15th, 2007 1. level 10 druid takes natural bond and a level 10 critter (say polar bear) 2. natural bond cannot take your EDL above character level so if you have a base critter natural bond does nothing 3. however for stat boost purposes in the sidebar of teh PHB the EDL of a polar bear is " 1" (10-9)4. therefore it appears possible the natural bond will allow the bear to get EDL level 4 stats even though the original EDL is the same as caster level No. You can't use Natural Bond to get an animal companion that would normally require a druid with more levels than you have HD.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 04:47 AM	While that is true, it does not answer the question. A level 10 druid can always take a polar bear (EDL -9) and according to the nonsense about Practiced Spellcaster, with Natural Bond it would be considered a polar bear at EDL 4 advancement. It appears to me that the person answering the question did not understand it, because the answer is a non sequitur. It does not follow.
pimeister 05-09-07, 06:39 AM	Arcane Hierophant is tasty. I would highly recommend it since the animal companion gains a real intelligence, and you dont have to worry about tricks at all. Also, the buffs get insane later on. hope this helps with the natural bond issue http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=795991
Necrochaos 05-09-07, 06:57 AM	You could also go the Dru3/Wiz3/MT2/AH7 if you don't want to lose another spellcasting level. What is MT2? I can't figure it out unless it's Mystic Theurage. If it is MT, does it fit in well with this build? I'm starting this character on Sunday as we start Scourge of the Howling Horde Snow Elf Str 8 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 10 1-Druid- Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 2- Wiz 3- Druid Practiced Spell Caster (Wizard) 4- Wiz 5- Druid 6- Wiz Practiced Spell Caster (Druid) 7- Beast Master 8- Arcane Heirophant 9- Arcane Heirophant Natural Spell 10-16 AH
Sieylianna 05-09-07, 07:33 AM	I think straight druid is your best bet. IIRC, snow elf is -2 Charisma which hurts your handle animal score. (For when you need a DC 25 handle animal check to feed your tiger a potion of fly). Arcane Hierophant is a nice class, but the three level hit to your druid spell casting and animal companion (I've never seen access to natural bond) is probably not a good fit, if you want to focus on your companion. Ed
Cynric 05-09-07, 08:57 AM	I have a Druid 12 Beastmaster 1. The tiger tends to get a lot of attention at most tables, mainly when the DM sees how much damage it can punch out. I have seriously worked at getting a bunch of items and spells that will allow the tiger to punch through most things, the only thing I need to work out is a way for cloak of displacement minor to work and allow me to cast touch spells on it, or get the tiger to be able to activate a major cloak.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 10:18 AM	Yes, MT is Mystic Theurge. The point of the Mystic Theurge levels is to make sure you don't lose any more caster levels then you have to. It does come at the cost of familiar companion advancement though. Druid 1 Wiz 1 Druid 2 Wiz 2 Druid 3 Wiz 3 MT 1 MT 2 <- BAB 4 now AH 1-7
King Kashue 05-09-07, 12:12 PM	the boost kicks in when combined natural bond with the one-level-dip in beastmaster - promoting the animal companion TWO tiers up :D And there, you're taking a caster level hit and a wild shape hit in order to boost the companion up. Again, powerful, but it seems a relatively fair trade, considering how valuable a caster level is.
TWG_Prometheus 05-09-07, 12:21 PM	While that is true, it does not answer the question. A level 10 druid can always take a polar bear (EDL -9) and according to the nonsense about Practiced Spellcaster, with Natural Bond it would be considered a polar bear at EDL 4 advancement. It appears to me that the person answering the question did not understand it, because the answer is a non sequitur. It does not follow. I'm not really sure how much clearer they could be. Using the LG ruling that you're referring to... 'No. You can't use Natural Bond to get an animal companion that would normally require a druid with more levels than you have HD." How many effective Druid levels does it 'normally require' to make a Polar Bear animal companion with the +2 HD stat bump? Do you have that many HD? The question of how the Beastmaster bump interacts with Natural Bond is more tricky, but it would take a build that is missing effective druid levels for it to even matter.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 01:30 PM	That, however has no consistency with prior campaign rulings or the FAQ. None. D&D is a game of rules and rules consistency (or at least it's supposed to be) so by the wording of the feat, which is essentially the wording of Practiced Spellcaster, it works. And the answer just says you cannot have an animal companion through Natural Bond that you normally would not be able to have, ie polar bear, not that you can't advance it once you have it. Rules work the way they do regardless of whether people like it or not. Given how Practiced Spellcaster + Wild Mage works, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind how Natural Bond + Beastmaster works, and it does work. Sigh. I almost didn't post because I knew this would happen. I will not be posting on this subject again because I didn't want to start this old argument again. No one's mind is likely to be changed.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 01:59 PM	The thing is, even with the Practiced Spellcaster FAQ, you don't apply part of the Wild Magic, then Practiced Spellcaster, then the rest of Wild Magic. So for example it isn't casterlevel - 3 + Practiced Spellcaster bump + 1d6. In the same way it isn't part of animal choice, then Natural Bond, then rest of animal choice. Your EDL is determined, then you chose your animal. A Wiz3/Dru3/BM1 with Natural Bond does absolutly have a animal companion of a 10th level druid. A Dru5/BM1 with Natural Bond has a wasted feat.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 03:03 PM	OK so I lied above. I am posting again. Actually, the process you described as not happening is exactly what does happen, because you apply the feat in the most advantageous order possible to the player. So for a Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster, they lose three caster levels, gain the three back from Practiced Spellcaster, and then add 1d6 on top of it. I hate the ruling, I think it's dead wrong, but that's what it is and we all have to abide by it. Given that, you would do the same thing with Natural Bond and add it at the most advantageous to the player point in the process. That means you add it at the end to bring up effective druid level after the advanced animal companion has brought it down, letting druids take fewer penalties to their animals than otherwise. It means a Druid 5/BM 1 with Natural Bond can take a Brown Bear animal companion at full progression (6th level char, 6th level advancement on a -6 animal companion). This is stupid and dumb and maybe shouldn't work, but a Wild Mage shouldn't be able to just add +1d6 caster levels either and they can. Now I do think that Natural Bond would work without this ruling anyway, because of the wording, but the Practiced Spellcaster ruling puts it on much more solid ground.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 03:08 PM	OK so I lied above. I am posting again. Actually, the process you described as not happening is exactly what does happen, because you apply the feat in the most advantageous order possible to the player. So for a Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster, they lose three caster levels, gain the three back from Practiced Spellcaster, and then add 1d6 on top of it. I hate the ruling, I think it's dead wrong, but that's what it is and we all have to abide by it. I recommend you go read it again. You can apply Wild Magic then Practiced Spellcaster or vice versa. Not part of Wild Magic, then Practiced Spellcaster, then the rest of Wild Magic. "The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level." The examples used in the FAQ (pg 33 of the April FAQ) are well designed examples. Oh, and by the way, if you use Spellforge, it calculates your caster level incorrectly when the 2 are combined.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 03:12 PM	The feat is a passive effect, always in place. It does not interrupt a single-step process to decide when it takes effect because it is, in effect, always on. I haven't checked Spellforge on how it does it, just going by FAQ and RPGA rulings on how the two combine. Like I said, even absent that, the Natural Bond thing still works. It's just more complicated to explain and I'm feeling lazy right now, but it has to do with the wording of the feat and the druid animal companion explanation.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 03:23 PM	The feat is a passive effect, always in place. It does not interrupt a single-step process to decide when it takes effect because it is, in effect, always on. Exactly. So this.. "so for a Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster, they lose three caster levels, gain the three back from Practiced Spellcaster, and then add 1d6 on top of it" is actually dead wrong, and is the direct opposite of what the FAQ says.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 03:41 PM	I don't really care what Wild Mage does. I think it does work like that (one step, -3 then add 1d6, then if it's lower than HD add Practiced Spellcaster so that you go back up to HD, making Wild Mage an effective +0-3 to CL) but there is argument that it works the way I described based on RPGA rulings of how Practiced Spellcaster works. It isn't even really the point though. However Wild Mage + Practiced Spellcaster works, it doesn't effect how Beastmaster + Natural Bond works because the justification is found in the wording of the feat and druid animal companion. The Practiced Spellcaster argument is merely an easier one to explain and so I went with that one first. Also, if Practiced Spellcaster does work in the most abusive way possible, then there can be no question of how Natural Bond works, while a RAW argument will always see table variation no matter how correct it is.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 04:19 PM	Umm.. the FAQ rules in the non broken direction. Once again I recommend going and reading it. Perhaps re-read my posts as well as you seem to have missed my point.
Necrochaos 05-09-07, 08:52 PM	Natural Bond does have access through Metaorgs in my region. So I could get it there. I could change to human. Any ideas for the extra feet, or stats? I do like the MT/AH a lot. Getting into the org would give me Natural bond, which would make up for my lack of druid levels, as I will still have the same hit dice as I would straight druid. I think I'm going to consider it. The casting seems very interesting. Any other ideas for feats, or was I on the right path.
Japangirl 05-10-07, 01:50 PM	Does this metaorg require residency requirements? There are two BK druid metaorgs and neither allows access to Natural Bond :weep:.
Necrochaos 05-10-07, 06:36 PM	You have to be a resident for all metaorg in my region except for the Mercenary Metaorg. The problem with the NB metaorg is that I have to have the track feat. I'd have to drop a level of ranger into the build or take track at 6th level.
Japangirl 05-10-07, 07:56 PM	Heh. My druid took Track at 1st level, just so that I could take full advantage of high wisdom and max ranks in survival. I want to move to your region! (whatever that might be)
Necrochaos 05-10-07, 09:05 PM	I think I'm going to do this build. Human Track and Skill Focus Handle Animal at first level. Any idea of feats? I have Practiced Spellcaster for both classes and looking to get natural bond and natural spell. Any other spellcasting feats I should be looking for? Or others that will help my animal friend? Should I keep the one level of beastmaster in there? Human Str 8 Dex 8 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 12 Druid - SF Handle Animal, Track Wiz Druid- Practiced Spellcaster Wiz Wiz Druid Wiz- Practice Spellcaster Druid Beastmaster? MT MT2 AH1 AH2
TWG_Prometheus 05-11-07, 11:19 AM	Should I keep the one level of beastmaster in there? In my opinion, no. If you're an Arcane Heirophant, your animal companion/familiar is bound to be pretty beefy, but it needs you to do it. You're a severely mutted caster at this point on the Mystic Theurge scale, and losing even more casting capability isn't going to help either of you. Strengthen your (animal companion/familiar/whatever that thing is) via False Life and the Druidic animal boost spells. There are some REALLY nice Open options for strengthening your buddy.
Necrochaos 05-12-07, 03:26 PM	So I'm starting this character tomorrow. If I'm not taking SF Handle Animal since I'm not going Beastmaster anymore, what feats should I take at first level? I have track, need it for the metaorg to get natural bond. The other I selected was improved initiave, because I found nothing else I could use. Any thoughts?
King Kashue 05-12-07, 03:57 PM	Alertness is nice, primarily to allow you to use the "Not This Time" card, but it will also provide even more boost to spot and listen (most druids being spot/listen monsters)....I'd take that over improved init.
Lupo 05-12-07, 04:32 PM	So I'm starting this character tomorrow. If I'm not taking SF Handle Animal since I'm not going Beastmaster anymore, what feats should I take at first level? I have track, need it for the metaorg to get natural bond. The other I selected was improved initiave, because I found nothing else I could use. Any thoughts? rapid spell => get your summon nature's ally as a standard action transdimensional spell => druids have few effects to deal with incorporeals, a transdimensional entangle, a transdimensional produce flame, or transdimensuonal flame blade work wonderful scribe scroll => loads of druid spells one wants to have on scroll are not from the PHB anyway improved initiative is always a good choice for a caster who has some means of battlefield control :) ciao martin m.
clannagh 05-13-07, 09:04 PM	Alertness is nice, primarily to allow you to use the "Not This Time" card, but it will also provide even more boost to spot and listen (most druids being spot/listen monsters)....I'd take that over improved init. once he goes AH he gets it for free whenever the familiar/companian is within "arms reach" one thing to consider is familar augmenting feats and spells, also the SF conjuration augmented summon track.
Necrochaos 05-14-07, 07:30 AM	The familiar/companion feats, are you talking abut bonded familiar and combat familiar? Are these feats worth much?