Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 05-09-07, 01:57 AM	What kind of prestige classes and feats are there for a druid summoner? I don't want to post a build until I know what I am working with, and I have no idea on what would make a good build.
Lupo 05-09-07, 02:44 AM	What kind of prestige classes and feats are there for a druid summoner? I don't want to post a build until I know what I am working with, and I have no idea on what would make a good build. prestige classes: straight, genuine, plain-vanilla DRUID :) feats: 1: spell focus [conjuration], augment summoning 3: rapid spell 6: metamagic school focus [conjuration] 9: craft wonderous items this works best with an human druid, as one dearly needs the bonus feat to get craft wondrous items at level nine. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 05-09-07, 02:47 AM	Spell focus conjuration and augment summoning are no brainers... As for prestige classes, I really don't know many for druids... Personally I like Alienist summoners, or clerics...
Lupo 05-09-07, 02:56 AM	Spell focus conjuration and augment summoning are no brainers... As for prestige classes, I really don't know many for druids... Personally I like Alienist summoners, or clerics... alienist would be cool BUT it explicitely only works with "summmon monster" spells :mad: gues which of my characters has three time access to the alienist prestige class :cool: ciao martin m.
_metz_ 05-09-07, 03:46 AM	prestige classes: straight, genuine, plain-vanilla DRUID :) feats: 1: spell focus [conjuration], augment summoning 3: rapid spell 6: metamagic school focus [conjuration] 9: craft wonderous items this works best with an human druid, as one dearly needs the bonus feat to get craft wondrous items at level nine. ciao martin m. I think you need craft wondrous item at 6, its soo important to get those stat boosters/pearls early, especially as a druid...
Lupo 05-09-07, 10:10 AM	I think you need craft wondrous item at 6, its soo important to get those stat boosters/pearls early, especially as a druid... yes, that looks really tasty, but look at how much gp you actually are able to sink into crafting before level 9, and then compare it to be guaranteed to have your summoned critters as standard actions WITHOUT using up a higher spell slot. as a summoning druid one is not as dearly in need for crafted items as some other casters ;) ok, the cheesy way around, for squaring the circle: take craft wondrous at sixth level, sink all your money into a periapt +4 and some pearls of power, retrain CWI to metamagic school focus at seventh level and take craft wondrous again at level nine :rolleyes: ciao martin m. PS: actually there should be a rule about "burnt" feats to avoid such cheese, i still don't like builds that include "convenient" retraining in-out-in of feats.
_metz_ 05-09-07, 10:44 AM	take craft wondrous at sixth level, sink all your money into a periapt +4 and some pearls of power, retrain CWI to metamagic school focus at seventh level and take craft wondrous again at level nine :rolleyes: PS: actually there should be a rule about "burnt" feats to avoid such cheese, i still don't like builds that include "convenient" retraining in-out-in of feats. I recall a ruling somewhere (not sure where) That said if you retrain out of a crafting feat you have to pay the difference of all your crafted items. I can't remember where I saw it, but it makes sense, otherwise everyone will take all the crafting feats at low levels and change them...
CSHunt68 05-09-07, 10:55 AM	I recall a ruling somewhere (not sure where) That said if you retrain out of a crafting feat you have to pay the difference of all your crafted items. I can't remember where I saw it, but it makes sense, otherwise everyone will take all the crafting feats at low levels and change them... This is why you recall the ruling. ;) You can't retrain a crafting feat unless you can IMMEDIATELY repay all the gold you've saved by crafting. ... Makes it kinda pointless. ;)
Rerednaw 05-09-07, 11:46 AM	prestige classes: straight, genuine, plain-vanilla DRUID :) feats: 1: spell focus [conjuration], augment summoning 3: rapid spell 6: metamagic school focus [conjuration] 9: craft wonderous items this works best with an human druid, as one dearly needs the bonus feat to get craft wondrous items at level nine. ciao martin m. That's pretty much my druid build. I currently play a wizard summoner/battlefield controller (conj) and I've been considering a druid. One feat that may interest you is Imbued Summoning (PlayHbook2). +1 level adjustment makes it MMSFable. You essentially get to cast a touch range buff (spell level 1-3) on your summons at the same time you summon. So you could bring in your critter with Magic Fang if you're trying to bypass the pesky DR/Magic, or Barkskin to help their pathetic AC. I do not know which feat I'd consider better, bringing in a critter as a standard action, or bringing in a critter with a buff as a full round action. Tough call considering that as a druid you are starved for feats. If you had feats to spare, cloudy conjuration (Comp Mage) is a fun one. Bring in your pet with his own sickening fog bank. And you get a +1 caster level for conjuration (calling). Not top tier, but interesting.
magebeast 05-09-07, 01:27 PM	This is why you recall the ruling. ;) You can't retrain a crafting feat unless you can IMMEDIATELY repay all the gold you've saved by crafting. ... Makes it kinda pointless. ;) It's really not though. Ever had an item on your AR that you'd have been willing to pay full price for - and then some - but it was adventure access and you didn't have the cash for it in time? This is your solution.
CSHunt68 05-09-07, 02:35 PM	It's really not though. Ever had an item on your AR that you'd have been willing to pay full price for - and then some - but it was adventure access and you didn't have the cash for it in time? This is your solution. You're gonna blow a Feat on this, just in case you find access that you don't have money for in time?? As I said - pointless.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 03:02 PM	What kind of prestige classes and feats are there for a druid summoner? I don't want to post a build until I know what I am working with, and I have no idea on what would make a good build. Really the best PrC for Druid is, well, Druid. Nothing else even comes close. Well, I guess Arcane Hierophant sorta does, but thats an entirely different beast. You would be looking for one that progresses both wild shape and your animal companion. As far as I am aware the only one that does so is AH. Oh, and don't forget Natural Spell if you can get it. So your feats could be SF(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, MMSF(Conjuration), CWI, Natural Spell,<your choice if human>. If you are not human I would seriously consider dropping out Rapid Spell and MMSF(Conjuration) and bumping up CWI and Natural Spell to 9 and 12 respectively. That allows you to get something like Quicken Spell at 15, when those levels of spell slot are available for use on Quickens.
Japangirl 05-09-07, 03:10 PM	You're gonna blow a Feat on this, just in case you find access that you don't have money for in time?? As I said - pointless. I am seriously considering it on my bard. I've seen a Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic and Mementos Magica 1st and 2nd level so far that I haven't been able to affort, and I'm only level 4. Would I take a 6th or 9th level feat to craft those and then pay the extra to be able to keep them and have my level 6 or 9 feat become something actually useful? The answer is YES. I expect I will see many other options for a CWI used only to preserve access as well. It's worth doing IMO.
Mommy was an Orc 05-09-07, 04:08 PM	I am seriously considering it on my bard. I've seen a Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic and Mementos Magica 1st and 2nd level so far that I haven't been able to affort, and I'm only level 4. Would I take a 6th or 9th level feat to craft those and then pay the extra to be able to keep them and have my level 6 or 9 feat become something actually useful? The answer is YES. I expect I will see many other options for a CWI used only to preserve access as well. It's worth doing IMO. Except CWI is extremely useful for a Bard. Cloak of Charisma, Vest of Resistance, and a Amulet of Constitution. UMD if necessary. The payback isn't as good once you need 3rd level scrolls and simply out of the picture for items that require multiple spells or 4th level scrolls to cast. But 1st and 2nd are well worth it.
GreatSiron 05-10-07, 12:16 AM	Well, first off I have a confession to make: this isn't a new character. This is a druid that I started in one game and never played again. I've decided to revisit him and use his free rebuild. (I built him a LONG time ago, back when I first started). And he's a high elf, so I don't get the free feat. (Can't rebuild his race). This is what I was thinking of doing: High Elf Druid Str: 10 Con:12 Dex:16 Int: 12 Wis:15 Cha:10 Druid 1: Spell Focus (Conj) Druid 2 Druid 3: Augment Summoning Druid 4: Stat Bump Wis Druid 5 Druid 6: CWI Druid 7 Druid 8: Stat Bump Wis Druid 9: Natural Spell Druid 10 Druid 11 Druid 12: Stat Bump Wis, Imbued Summoning Druid 13 Druid 14 Druid 15: Quicken Spell Skills will be Concentration, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, and Survival. So what do you think?
bitznarf 05-10-07, 12:56 AM	Well, first off I have a confession to make: this isn't a new character. This is a druid that I started in one game and never played again. I've decided to revisit him and use his free rebuild. (I built him a LONG time ago, back when I first started). And he's a high elf, so I don't get the free feat. (Can't rebuild his race). This is what I was thinking of doing: High Elf Druid Str: 10 Con:12 Dex:16 Int: 12 Wis:15 Cha:10 Druid 1: Spell Focus (Conj) Druid 2 Druid 3: Augment Summoning Druid 4: Stat Bump Wis Druid 5 Druid 6: CWI Druid 7 Druid 8: Stat Bump Wis Druid 9: Natural Spell Druid 10 Druid 11 Druid 12: Stat Bump Wis, Imbued Summoning Druid 13 Druid 14 Druid 15: Quicken Spell Skills will be Concentration, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, and Survival. So what do you think? I think Imbued Summoning is a waste of a feat and a +1 Metamagic cost. Perhaps Empower or Sculpt might work better for you.
CSHunt68 05-10-07, 11:19 AM	I am seriously considering it on my bard. I've seen a Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic and Mementos Magica 1st and 2nd level so far that I haven't been able to affort, and I'm only level 4. Would I take a 6th or 9th level feat to craft those and then pay the extra to be able to keep them and have my level 6 or 9 feat become something actually useful? The answer is YES. I expect I will see many other options for a CWI used only to preserve access as well. It's worth doing IMO. I have no idea why you wouldn't keep CWI, and want to pay TU and scads of money on top of losing the ability to craft.
Japangirl 05-10-07, 02:07 PM	I have no idea why you wouldn't keep CWI, and want to pay TU and scads of money on top of losing the ability to craft. Bards don't get great crafting spells, so there's a lot of useful things they have to craft out of scrolls or not at all (unless you UMD, and my bard isn't that type of bard. She's a face and I just didn't have the skill points to put into UMD, Decipher Script, and Spellcraft). Once I've made the things that I want to preserve access to, I see no reason to keep the feat when I could get something else instead.
CSHunt68 05-10-07, 02:47 PM	Once I've made the things that I want to preserve access to, I see no reason to keep the feat when I could get something else instead. Costly play option, frankly.
jimmy_dowdall 05-10-07, 02:50 PM	and you might find other to make as you go along or craft xtra items to loan out
magebeast 05-10-07, 03:17 PM	I have no idea why you wouldn't keep CWI, and want to pay TU and scads of money on top of losing the ability to craft. 4 TUs isn't that big of an issue on a tertiary character (which her bard is), and it's maybe 800 gold when she retrains out of it - a small cost for lost access. Hell, I'm sure there are a lot of high level non crafters that'd pay 4 TUs and 800 gold to get regain access to a few of the things they lost access to at lower levels.
bitznarf 05-10-07, 03:29 PM	4 TUs isn't that big of an issue on a tertiary character (which her bard is), and it's maybe 800 gold when she retrains out of it - a small cost for lost access. Hell, I'm sure there are a lot of high level non crafters that'd pay 4 TUs and 800 gold to get regain access to a few of the things they lost access to at lower levels. Also note that the gold loss is somewhat balanced out by the XP loss from crafting.
CSHunt68 05-10-07, 03:29 PM	4 TUs isn't that big of an issue on a tertiary character (which her bard is), and it's maybe 800 gold when she retrains out of it - a small cost for lost access. Hell, I'm sure there are a lot of high level non crafters that'd pay 4 TUs and 800 gold to get regain access to a few of the things they lost access to at lower levels. No, it's that PLUS half the market value of everything you've used that Feat to craft. As I said - costly.
bitznarf 05-10-07, 03:31 PM	No, it's that PLUS half the market value of everything you've used that Feat to craft. As I said - costly. No more so than never having had the feat in the first place.
Rerednaw 05-10-07, 05:53 PM	Well, first off I have a confession to make: this isn't a new character. This is a druid that I started in one game and never played again. I've decided to revisit him and use his free rebuild. (I built him a LONG time ago, back when I first started). And he's a high elf, so I don't get the free feat. (Can't rebuild his race). This is what I was thinking of doing: High Elf Druid Str: 10 Con:12 Dex:16 Int: 12 Wis:15 Cha:10 Druid 1: Spell Focus (Conj) Druid 2 Druid 3: Augment Summoning Druid 4: Stat Bump Wis Druid 5 Druid 6: CWI Druid 7 Druid 8: Stat Bump Wis Druid 9: Natural Spell Druid 10 Druid 11 Druid 12: Stat Bump Wis, Imbued Summoning Druid 13 Druid 14 Druid 15: Quicken Spell Skills will be Concentration, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, and Survival. So what do you think? You took Natural Spell, implying you will be spending a great deal of time wild-shaped. Do you need the (14) 16 dex? Once wildshaped, you will lose benefits from any +wis items...so even though it is expensive, 16 wis (17 if you can scrape the extra points) may be worth considering. Just wanted to mention Rapid Spell again. I'm torn myself between the two (Imbued and Rapid). Of course if you are lucky enough to get a Rod of Metamagic (Rapid Spell) it's moot.
bitznarf 05-10-07, 05:54 PM	Once wildshaped, you will lose benefits from any +wis items...so even though it is expensive, 16 wis (17 if you can scrape the extra points) may be worth considering. You can always put the amulet on after you wildshape.
magebeast 05-10-07, 10:34 PM	No, it's that PLUS half the market value of everything you've used that Feat to craft. As I said - costly. As Bitznarf pointed out, and I've been saying repeatedly the point of it is not to take the normal advantage that crafting allows - it's a way to regain lost access!
GreatSiron 05-10-07, 11:54 PM	I have another question: what spells are good for a first lvl Druid to prepare (other than entangle, that seriously is a given).
magebeast 05-11-07, 12:48 AM	I have another question: what spells are good for a first lvl Druid to prepare (other than entangle, that seriously is a given). Lesser Vigor, for healing. More healing than a cure light for out of combat. Produce Flame does some decent damage, although it really does more when you have a fewer caster levels to bump it. Dunno about SpC spells.
berpo 05-11-07, 12:36 PM	I have another question: what spells are good for a first lvl Druid to prepare (other than entangle, that seriously is a given). Fearie fire is so nice to make the invisible guy not so invisible...
Genghis Cohen 05-13-07, 05:41 PM	Well, first off I have a confession to make: this isn't a new character. This is a druid that I started in one game and never played again. I've decided to revisit him and use his free rebuild. (I built him a LONG time ago, back when I first started). And he's a high elf, so I don't get the free feat. (Can't rebuild his race). This is what I was thinking of doing: High Elf Druid Str: 10 Con:12 Dex:16 Int: 12 Wis:15 Cha:10 Druid 1: Spell Focus (Conj) Druid 2 Druid 3: Augment Summoning Druid 4: Stat Bump Wis Druid 5 Druid 6: CWI Druid 7 Druid 8: Stat Bump Wis Druid 9: Natural Spell Druid 10 Druid 11 Druid 12: Stat Bump Wis, Imbued Summoning Druid 13 Druid 14 Druid 15: Quicken Spell Skills will be Concentration, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, and Survival. So what do you think?I play a gray elven summoning druid who is now 10th level. He was my first LG character. At the recent rebuild, I did a few things. I lowered his charisma to 8 and raised his con from 10 to 12. I also have a 16 int, but I really like skill points. If you don't need a higher int, I recommend that you drop the charisma and raise your wisdom to 16. As far as feats go, you don't really need Rapid Spell at low levels. Once you start getting into APL 8 territory, you will be lucky to get a summoning spell off after initiative is rolled without it. At the recent conversion, I dropped Natural Spell for Rapid Spell. I decided to keep Track. Otherwise I would have added Metamagic School Focus. If I wasn't so close to 11th level, I'd train out of Track for Metamagic School Focus. Its that important. At 12th level I'll pick it up. Because my druid is my primary, I don't miss CWI. I need the TUs. Imbued Summoning is a cool feat, but its not very useful. As far as prestige classes for druids go, they are all less prestigious than straight druid. If you're determined to play an elven summoning druid, I strongly recommend the following feat progression: 1. Spell Focus (Conjuration) 3. Augment Summoning 6. Rapid Spell 9. Metamagic School Focus 12. pick a feat 15. pick a feat You could take CWI at 6th, Rapid Spell at 9h and Metamagic School Focus at 12th. Also, keep the following skills maxed out: Concentration, Listen and Spot. Don't even think otherwise. I also keep Knowledge (Nature) and Survival (because I have Track) maxed out, and I am close to maxed out in Handle Animal. You should also consider having at least one rank on Spellcraft for Detect Magic. I also have ranks in other things for metaorgs, and I've picked up several languages with crossclass skill points. There is debate about how many ranks you need for Handle Animal. Some people say that you only need 5. Some people say that you need enough to auto succeed on a DC25 check with your animal companion. Your experience will show a level of table variation from judges, so you'll eventually make your own decision about this. As far as additional languages go, Sylvan is the obvious in character choice. I remember using it once. I've been picking up all the elemental languages. They are more useful. Auran might eventually be the best because once you hit 11th level, you can summon Huge Air Elementals. That's when a druid's abuse of NPCs really begins. I'm not even close to my ramblings about druids, so lets get to 2nd level spells. 1st level druid spells are pretty good. 3rd level druid spells aren't so hot. GMF is the star here. 4th level druid spells are really good. 5th level druid spells are off the hook! If a druid could only cast Wall of Thorns and Animal Growth for 5th level spells, he would still be doing very well. 2nd level druid spells, in my opinion, are as good as 5th level druid spells relative to their level. A lot of druids use their 3rd level slots to memorize 2nd level druid spells. That says a lot. This leads me to equipping a druid. I won't go heavily into this except for three items that all druids should have. With your maxed out ranks in Spot, and your high wisdom, get Eyes of the Eagle (and memorize Raptor's Sight.) If you think that a +30 in spot is overkill at APL10, wait until you tell the DM that you got a 43 and its not good enough. Wicked high Spot and Listen checks mean that you usually act in the surprise round. The other two items for a druid? Remember how good 2nd level druid spells are? Pearls of Power 2 and Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend are the answer. You can make 10 minute/level spells like Barkskin (cast on you and your animal companion) and Listening Lorecall last all day long with these. Its not cheap, but its worth it. Paying for all of those Pearl 2s is what might drive you to CWI at 6th level. Finally, if you follow only one thing that I suggested, its this: NEVER MULTICLASS A DRUID!!!
Genghis Cohen 05-13-07, 05:53 PM	I have another question: what spells are good for a first lvl Druid to prepare (other than entangle, that seriously is a given).Its a good idea to consult with the players at each table. I've found that druids need to be flexible in order maintain their effectiveness. If there is no cleric at the table, you could find yourself memorizing Cure Light Wounds with all of your slots. If there is a cleric at the table, Entangle are Produce Flame are good. I wouldn't memorize Lesser Vigor at 1st level. You have too few slots. If you're healing, you need to be able to effectively do so in combat. If there is a cleric at the table, let him heal so that you can cast other spells. Entangle is probably your best 1st level spell. Summoning isn't very good at 1st level because it lasts one round.
Iswald 05-14-07, 10:25 AM	Its a good idea to consult with the players at each table. I've found that druids need to be flexible in order maintain their effectiveness. If there is no cleric at the table, you could find yourself memorizing Cure Light Wounds with all of your slots. If there is a cleric at the table, Entangle are Produce Flame are good. I wouldn't memorize Lesser Vigor at 1st level. You have too few slots. If you're healing, you need to be able to effectively do so in combat. If there is a cleric at the table, let him heal so that you can cast other spells. Entangle is probably your best 1st level spell. Summoning isn't very good at 1st level because it lasts one round. Asking what others can use isn't a bad idea. But, I don't bother since most everything I prepare gets turned into summoning spells. :) This last weekend, though, I had to use three first level slots for endure elements (and use 2 PoP to get everyone in the party), two second level slots for swim and one third level slot for water breathing. My last first level slot was used for lesser vigor, the second level slots were for nature's favor and something I can't think of at the moment. The last two third level slots were for mass lesser vigor. Even when there's not a cleric in the party, I only use the vigors. If I must heal in combat, I use wands. Normally, I'd use entangle, produce flame, etc as first level spells. On the other hand, I have a melee character with levels in druid. He has no magic weapon at this time. So, he uses shillelagh on his oak club. His second spell is lesser vigor. Again, he uses wands if he has to heal in combat.
Rerednaw 05-14-07, 11:54 AM	You can always put the amulet on after you wildshape. Um, well you get to keep the will save, skill checks and spell save DC if your DM allows you to do that. I guess that's not too bad. I would prefer to keep my full casting stat at all times (or at least as high as possible.) So you don't lose all those bonus spells.
lseelba 05-30-07, 04:35 PM	prestige classes: straight, genuine, plain-vanilla DRUID :) feats: 1: spell focus [conjuration], augment summoning 3: rapid spell 6: metamagic school focus [conjuration] 9: craft wonderous items this works best with an human druid, as one dearly needs the bonus feat to get craft wondrous items at level nine. ciao martin m. Can you rapid spell a spontaneously cast summon spell?
bitznarf 05-30-07, 05:07 PM	Can you rapid spell a spontaneously cast summon spell? I believe it would become a full round action to cast at this point, with the critter still appearing the round you started casting: SNA has a 1 round casting time Rapid Spell reduces the casting time to 1 standard action Spontaneous Metamagic increases it to 1 full round action In order to get it down to a standard action the spell would need to be prep'd that way. I think the above is right, if not, I'm sure someone will correct me.
Lupo 05-30-07, 06:36 PM	I believe it would become a full round action to cast at this point, with the critter still appearing the round you started casting: SNA has a 1 round casting time Rapid Spell reduces the casting time to 1 standard action Spontaneous Metamagic increases it to 1 full round action In order to get it down to a standard action the spell would need to be prep'd that way. I think the above is right, if not, I'm sure someone will correct me. yea, one has to prepare the summoning natures ally spell, but still a VERY powerful build, you can benefit with only three summoning spells anyway, due to the "metamagic school focus" limitation :) ciao martin m.
lseelba 05-30-07, 07:22 PM	yea, one has to prepare the summoning natures ally spell, but still a VERY powerful build, you can benefit with only three summoning spells anyway, due to the "metamagic school focus" limitation :) ciao martin m. But bitz is saying that you can summon the monster in the same round you cast the spontaneous metamagic spell as a full round action (not a 1-round spell). Is he right?
Lupo 05-30-07, 08:26 PM	But bitz is saying that you can summon the monster in the same round you cast the spontaneous metamagic spell as a full round action (not a 1-round spell). Is he right? i think so, it is somewhere in the PHB adding a metamagic feat to a spontaneously casted spell makes it use up all your actions for the round - the move action and the standard action - all you can do in addition is a five-foot step. the problem with NOT having at least one or two summoning spells prepared, is the always dreaded "surprise round", for a summoning druid, it is most useful to summon critters during the surprise round, and then be able to cast enlarge animal in the next round, just BEFORE the critters attack ;) ciao martin m.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 10:18 AM	I believe it would become a full round action to cast at this point, with the critter still appearing the round you started casting: SNA has a 1 round casting time Rapid Spell reduces the casting time to 1 standard action Spontaneous Metamagic increases it to 1 full round action In order to get it down to a standard action the spell would need to be prep'd that way. I think the above is right, if not, I'm sure someone will correct me. This is correct. There is also a new Feat that you can take at 9th level (spellcraft requirement iirc) which I believe is called Rapid Metamagic that negates the increased time for spontaneously adding metamagic.