Dual Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dual Wielder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Franco Un-American
03-11-07, 08:23 PM I've been running up a few concepts for a TWF'er, and I came up with this. Does anyone have any ideas of how to bring it up to par?

Wood Elf
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8

Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Rogue 1: Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6
Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
Rogue 2: Evasion, Strength 21
Rogue 3: Trap Sense +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
Fighter 3: Telling Blow
Fighter 4: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Rogue 4: Uncanny Dodge, Strength 22
Rogue 5: Sneak Attack +3d6, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Fighter 5:
Fighter 6: Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing)
Rogue 6: Trap Sense +2, Dexterity 17, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
Rogue 7: Sneak Attack +4d6
Fighter 7:
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

This gives 6 attacks/round at 4d6 sneak attack, an attack bonus of +27ish after magic weapons and strength boosts, and good base damage even without SA. I'm considering using warmaces instead of bastard swords, for increased damage, but the AC penalty would hurt, and both Improved Critical and Telling Blow would be much less useful. Any thoughts?
Timlagor
03-11-07, 10:36 PM Well start by dropping the Bastard Sword for a Longsword or better still Scimitar. I can see no reason to use an Exotic Weapon in that build.

Take Rogue at 1st level for loads more skill points and only 2 less HP..but with 6Int 1 level of Rogue is probably enough.

Decide if you're a Rogue or a Fighter: Rogues don't bother with PA and OTWF.
Take Staggering Strike.

Take a long hard look at PrCs. In particular Dervish and Wildrunner.
Franco Un-American
03-11-07, 11:11 PM I used bastard sword for it's greater damage in melee, to help bolster the character's usefulness against crit-immune or high-DR creatures. Scimitar actually exasperates this problem

It's 4 hp lost, not 2, and this build really doesn't care about skill points in the least. Rogue at first level does little for either immediate or long-term survival.

I don't have power attack, and OTWF is there to combine the higher damage of one handed weapons with lesser attack penalties. It works just fine for a rogue.

Staggering Strike is a good idea. Not sure what I'll drop for it yet, though.

Neither Dervish nor Wildrunner seemed to work when I reviewed them. The Combat Expertise prerequisite for Dervish put it completely at odds with the Int-penalty Wood Elf, and Wildrunner almost requires Ranger levels, and doesn't offer much beyond the Pounce until high levels anyway, which utterly invalidates an attempt to build either feats or sneak attack, the two things this character is built on right now.
magebeast
03-11-07, 11:54 PM It's 4 hp lost, not 2, and this build really doesn't care about skill points in the least. Rogue at first level does little for either immediate or long-term survival.

Fighter1/Rog1 nets you 14 HP before con. Rog1/Fighter1 nets you 12 HP before con. You lose two hp in the long term.
Franco Un-American
03-11-07, 11:58 PM Bah. I was thinking immediately. Silly me.
Timlagor
03-12-07, 02:52 AM The difference in damage from weapon dice really isn't that significant (especially on high strength builds). The average +1 damage compared to a Longsword simply isn't worth a Feat. Scimitars Crit more often which is actually rather more important.

I hadn't actually noticed the absence of Power Attack: don't take OTWF without Power Attack.

I can't see any reason you wouldn't want Barbarian in there.

If you don't care about skills you probably shouldn't have nearly that many levels of Rogue.

Anyone taking ITWF should probably have Ranger 2 in their build already: you get a lot from it (wands, skills, Fav Enemy, Saves, Track even if you only assist) and you have the Dex to be wearing light armour anyway.

Telling Blow looks rather pointless: even with lots of SnAt dice, the times when you'll be fighting something that is subject to SnAt and you aren't already getting them *and* you'll score a critical hit will be pretty darn few and far between.
Franco Un-American
03-12-07, 03:22 AM Hmmm. Good points, all. How's this for a 'revised' build?

Wood Elf
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 12

Ranger 1: Power Attack, Track, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy (human)
Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Barbarian 1: Rage 1/day, Fast Movement, Extra Rage
Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Dexterity 17
Ranger 3: Endurance
Wildrunner 1: Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Wildrunner 2: Primal Scream, Scent
Wildrunner 3: Endure Elements, Strength 21
Wildrunner 4: Primal Scream (enemies shaken), Reckless Rage
Wildrunner 5: Hide in Plain Sight
Wildrunner 6: Primal Scream (pounce)
Wildrunner 7: Unfettered Stride, Two-Weapon Rend, Strength 22
Wildrunner 8: Primal Scream (enemies cower)
Wildrunner 9: Feyheart
Wildrunner 10: Primal Scream (fast healing), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Completely ditched the sneak attack aspect of this build, and went more for strength-based damage. Wildrunner is excellent in this build now that SA's been ditched. Note that this build needs some sort of dexterity enhancement at the end to qualify for GTWF, though I'm considering dropping that entirely. I definately feel TWR is more valuable at lvl 12. Somehow I want to smash Shock Trooper into this build. What would you drop for the last 2 feats?
Timlagor
03-12-07, 04:27 AM That looks alright.. except why are you using TWF now?
it seems to me that you'd get almost exactly the same damage with this precise character using 2HF.

I know I'm rather telling you not to take SnAt and then telling you you need it: the problem is that making TWF worthwhile is very difficult and just doesn't generally suit bigDUMBfighters.
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 02:43 PM The only way for Two-Weapon Fighting to be useful is by doing damage besides STR-based damage. For Example, this is(in my opinion) a very good Two-Weapon Fighter.

Human Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2/Swashbuckler 9

STR 12
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 8

1 Rogue: Two-Weapon Fighting, Open Feat
2 Swashbuckler
3 Swashbuckler: Open Feat
4 Diviner: INT +1
5 Rogue
6 Unseen Seer: Daring Outlaw
7 Unseen Seer
8 Swashbuckler: INT +1
9 Fighter Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Staggering Strike
10 Swashbuckler
11 Swashbuckler
12 Swashbuckler: INT +1, Craft Wondrous Item
13 Swashbuckler
14 Swashbuckler
15 Swashbuckler: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

You end up with 7d6 Sneak attack, Golem Strike and Grave Strike, Trapfinding, and not terrible saves. Prohibited Schools are Enchantment and Abjuration probably.
Franco Un-American
03-12-07, 04:23 PM Not a bad one, actually. The biggest problem I see is low attack rolls at low levels, something I like to avoid. Why diviner, though? Yes, it fits with Unseen Seer, but divination doesn't seem incredibly useful to this build, aside from the Strike spells. I'd think Transmutation may be a more effective choice. Also, with so few spells, would Craft Wondrous still be useful? I don't have much experience with crafters, personally. Perhaps Extend Spell might be more useful. Lastly, with only a +12 BAB and you boosting your non-attacking stat, Two-Weapon Rend may be more effective than Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, though I'll have to check up on the latter to see if it qualifies as an 'attack'.
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 05:29 PM The Strike spells are the number one reason you're taking Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2. At 3rd level wizard you get 2 base with 1 first level spell. Going Diviner lets you take an extra strike in a first and second level slot, without losing too much.

As far as crafting goes, with 3rd level wizard you're going to be able to cast all the stat boost spells, cutting a good chunk off all your +4 -> +6 upgrades. If you take practiced spellcaster too you'll be a 7th level caster for using scrolls so you can use scrolls up to 4th level without any chance of failure, giving you a much larger range of spells you can craft with.

As far as the low to-hit at early levels, 4th and 6th are the only levels you ever drop below Rogue BAB, and from 7th on you are either Rogue BAB or Rogue BAB+1. It's just a necessary sacrifice for more versatility later on. You could take Focus at 3rd to help you out, and take like Imp Init at 1st, retraining it into Practiced Spellcaster at 4th.
Franco Un-American
03-12-07, 05:59 PM Hmmm. You have a point, but rogue BAB on a primary meleeist doesn't seem like a tremendous accomplishment. You only have a +19 to hit at 15th, assuming a +6 dex item and a +3 weapon. To me, that seems really, really low. I expect +19's at level 10, let alone level 15, and your bonuses at lower levels are in a similarly bad way. Versatility is nice, but it means jack when you can't hit a thing. I'll take a look at what I can do with this.
Grantor
03-12-07, 06:14 PM Hmmm. You have a point, but rogue BAB on a primary meleeist doesn't seem like a tremendous accomplishment. You only have a +19 to hit at 15th, assuming a +6 dex item and a +3 weapon. To me, that seems really, really low. I expect +19's at level 10, let alone level 15, and your bonuses at lower levels are in a similarly bad way. Versatility is nice, but it means jack when you can't hit a thing. I'll take a look at what I can do with this.

Well, yes, but how much to hit is lost by a Power Attacker that tries to match the damage-per-round output of this character when making full-round attacks?

And since it is going to take a round of maneuvering to get into proper sneak attack position, it's not like the loss of a full-round attack the first round is going to set this charcter behind on anything that has lots of HP.
Franco Un-American
03-12-07, 07:14 PM Perhaps you're right. I'll think on it some more.

Also, does anyone have any enlightenment on whether Greater Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Rend would be better for this build? I honestly can't decide one way or the other, though I'm leaning toward TWR.
Timlagor
03-12-07, 09:15 PM I'd go with the Rend given the high Strength. GTWF is often skipped because the attacks are likely to miss. -oops confused about which build
Alpha_Nerd
03-13-07, 12:18 AM I wouldn't pick up rend for the build I posted simply becuase the build doesn't rely on strength at all, it's all precision damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Franco Un-American 03-11-07, 08:23 PM	I've been running up a few concepts for a TWF'er, and I came up with this. Does anyone have any ideas of how to bring it up to par? Wood Elf Str 20, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8 Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Rogue 1: Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue 2: Evasion, Strength 21 Rogue 3: Trap Sense +1, Sneak Attack +2d6 Fighter 3: Telling Blow Fighter 4: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue 4: Uncanny Dodge, Strength 22 Rogue 5: Sneak Attack +3d6, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Fighter 5: Fighter 6: Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) Rogue 6: Trap Sense +2, Dexterity 17, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword) Rogue 7: Sneak Attack +4d6 Fighter 7: Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting This gives 6 attacks/round at 4d6 sneak attack, an attack bonus of +27ish after magic weapons and strength boosts, and good base damage even without SA. I'm considering using warmaces instead of bastard swords, for increased damage, but the AC penalty would hurt, and both Improved Critical and Telling Blow would be much less useful. Any thoughts?
Timlagor 03-11-07, 10:36 PM	Well start by dropping the Bastard Sword for a Longsword or better still Scimitar. I can see no reason to use an Exotic Weapon in that build. Take Rogue at 1st level for loads more skill points and only 2 less HP..but with 6Int 1 level of Rogue is probably enough. Decide if you're a Rogue or a Fighter: Rogues don't bother with PA and OTWF. Take Staggering Strike. Take a long hard look at PrCs. In particular Dervish and Wildrunner.
Franco Un-American 03-11-07, 11:11 PM	I used bastard sword for it's greater damage in melee, to help bolster the character's usefulness against crit-immune or high-DR creatures. Scimitar actually exasperates this problem It's 4 hp lost, not 2, and this build really doesn't care about skill points in the least. Rogue at first level does little for either immediate or long-term survival. I don't have power attack, and OTWF is there to combine the higher damage of one handed weapons with lesser attack penalties. It works just fine for a rogue. Staggering Strike is a good idea. Not sure what I'll drop for it yet, though. Neither Dervish nor Wildrunner seemed to work when I reviewed them. The Combat Expertise prerequisite for Dervish put it completely at odds with the Int-penalty Wood Elf, and Wildrunner almost requires Ranger levels, and doesn't offer much beyond the Pounce until high levels anyway, which utterly invalidates an attempt to build either feats or sneak attack, the two things this character is built on right now.
magebeast 03-11-07, 11:54 PM	It's 4 hp lost, not 2, and this build really doesn't care about skill points in the least. Rogue at first level does little for either immediate or long-term survival. Fighter1/Rog1 nets you 14 HP before con. Rog1/Fighter1 nets you 12 HP before con. You lose two hp in the long term.
Franco Un-American 03-11-07, 11:58 PM	Bah. I was thinking immediately. Silly me.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:52 AM	The difference in damage from weapon dice really isn't that significant (especially on high strength builds). The average +1 damage compared to a Longsword simply isn't worth a Feat. Scimitars Crit more often which is actually rather more important. I hadn't actually noticed the absence of Power Attack: don't take OTWF without Power Attack. I can't see any reason you wouldn't want Barbarian in there. If you don't care about skills you probably shouldn't have nearly that many levels of Rogue. Anyone taking ITWF should probably have Ranger 2 in their build already: you get a lot from it (wands, skills, Fav Enemy, Saves, Track even if you only assist) and you have the Dex to be wearing light armour anyway. Telling Blow looks rather pointless: even with lots of SnAt dice, the times when you'll be fighting something that is subject to SnAt and you aren't already getting them and you'll score a critical hit will be pretty darn few and far between.
Franco Un-American 03-12-07, 03:22 AM	Hmmm. Good points, all. How's this for a 'revised' build? Wood Elf Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 12 Ranger 1: Power Attack, Track, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy (human) Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting Barbarian 1: Rage 1/day, Fast Movement, Extra Rage Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Dexterity 17 Ranger 3: Endurance Wildrunner 1: Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Wildrunner 2: Primal Scream, Scent Wildrunner 3: Endure Elements, Strength 21 Wildrunner 4: Primal Scream (enemies shaken), Reckless Rage Wildrunner 5: Hide in Plain Sight Wildrunner 6: Primal Scream (pounce) Wildrunner 7: Unfettered Stride, Two-Weapon Rend, Strength 22 Wildrunner 8: Primal Scream (enemies cower) Wildrunner 9: Feyheart Wildrunner 10: Primal Scream (fast healing), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Completely ditched the sneak attack aspect of this build, and went more for strength-based damage. Wildrunner is excellent in this build now that SA's been ditched. Note that this build needs some sort of dexterity enhancement at the end to qualify for GTWF, though I'm considering dropping that entirely. I definately feel TWR is more valuable at lvl 12. Somehow I want to smash Shock Trooper into this build. What would you drop for the last 2 feats?
Timlagor 03-12-07, 04:27 AM	That looks alright.. except why are you using TWF now? it seems to me that you'd get almost exactly the same damage with this precise character using 2HF. I know I'm rather telling you not to take SnAt and then telling you you need it: the problem is that making TWF worthwhile is very difficult and just doesn't generally suit bigDUMBfighters.
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 02:43 PM	The only way for Two-Weapon Fighting to be useful is by doing damage besides STR-based damage. For Example, this is(in my opinion) a very good Two-Weapon Fighter. Human Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2/Swashbuckler 9 STR 12 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 15 WIS 8 CHA 8 1 Rogue: Two-Weapon Fighting, Open Feat 2 Swashbuckler 3 Swashbuckler: Open Feat 4 Diviner: INT +1 5 Rogue 6 Unseen Seer: Daring Outlaw 7 Unseen Seer 8 Swashbuckler: INT +1 9 Fighter Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Staggering Strike 10 Swashbuckler 11 Swashbuckler 12 Swashbuckler: INT +1, Craft Wondrous Item 13 Swashbuckler 14 Swashbuckler 15 Swashbuckler: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting You end up with 7d6 Sneak attack, Golem Strike and Grave Strike, Trapfinding, and not terrible saves. Prohibited Schools are Enchantment and Abjuration probably.
Franco Un-American 03-12-07, 04:23 PM	Not a bad one, actually. The biggest problem I see is low attack rolls at low levels, something I like to avoid. Why diviner, though? Yes, it fits with Unseen Seer, but divination doesn't seem incredibly useful to this build, aside from the Strike spells. I'd think Transmutation may be a more effective choice. Also, with so few spells, would Craft Wondrous still be useful? I don't have much experience with crafters, personally. Perhaps Extend Spell might be more useful. Lastly, with only a +12 BAB and you boosting your non-attacking stat, Two-Weapon Rend may be more effective than Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, though I'll have to check up on the latter to see if it qualifies as an 'attack'.
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 05:29 PM	The Strike spells are the number one reason you're taking Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2. At 3rd level wizard you get 2 base with 1 first level spell. Going Diviner lets you take an extra strike in a first and second level slot, without losing too much. As far as crafting goes, with 3rd level wizard you're going to be able to cast all the stat boost spells, cutting a good chunk off all your +4 -> +6 upgrades. If you take practiced spellcaster too you'll be a 7th level caster for using scrolls so you can use scrolls up to 4th level without any chance of failure, giving you a much larger range of spells you can craft with. As far as the low to-hit at early levels, 4th and 6th are the only levels you ever drop below Rogue BAB, and from 7th on you are either Rogue BAB or Rogue BAB+1. It's just a necessary sacrifice for more versatility later on. You could take Focus at 3rd to help you out, and take like Imp Init at 1st, retraining it into Practiced Spellcaster at 4th.
Franco Un-American 03-12-07, 05:59 PM	Hmmm. You have a point, but rogue BAB on a primary meleeist doesn't seem like a tremendous accomplishment. You only have a +19 to hit at 15th, assuming a +6 dex item and a +3 weapon. To me, that seems really, really low. I expect +19's at level 10, let alone level 15, and your bonuses at lower levels are in a similarly bad way. Versatility is nice, but it means jack when you can't hit a thing. I'll take a look at what I can do with this.
Grantor 03-12-07, 06:14 PM	Hmmm. You have a point, but rogue BAB on a primary meleeist doesn't seem like a tremendous accomplishment. You only have a +19 to hit at 15th, assuming a +6 dex item and a +3 weapon. To me, that seems really, really low. I expect +19's at level 10, let alone level 15, and your bonuses at lower levels are in a similarly bad way. Versatility is nice, but it means jack when you can't hit a thing. I'll take a look at what I can do with this. Well, yes, but how much to hit is lost by a Power Attacker that tries to match the damage-per-round output of this character when making full-round attacks? And since it is going to take a round of maneuvering to get into proper sneak attack position, it's not like the loss of a full-round attack the first round is going to set this charcter behind on anything that has lots of HP.
Franco Un-American 03-12-07, 07:14 PM	Perhaps you're right. I'll think on it some more. Also, does anyone have any enlightenment on whether Greater Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Rend would be better for this build? I honestly can't decide one way or the other, though I'm leaning toward TWR.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 09:15 PM	I'd go with the Rend given the high Strength. GTWF is often skipped because the attacks are likely to miss. -oops confused about which build
Alpha_Nerd 03-13-07, 12:18 AM	I wouldn't pick up rend for the build I posted simply becuase the build doesn't rely on strength at all, it's all precision damage.