Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 03-01-07, 03:03 PM	Since Duskblade is NONC (*sniff*), this doesn't impact many, but.... As written, Duskblade does not get simple weapon proficiency. This is rather odd, and Customer Service has passed it on for possible errata. In the meantime, it creates a little pocket of inconsistency for the full BAB guys. David
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 03:07 PM	Since Duskblade is NONC (*sniff*), this doesn't impact many, but.... As written, Duskblade does not get simple weapon proficiency. This is rather odd, and Customer Service has passed it on for possible errata. In the meantime, it creates a little pocket of inconsistency for the full BAB guys. David Random Duskblade "Well, I've mastered the use of this here flail, but for the life of me I can't figure out how the heck you use this dagger right...."
Zanzibax 03-02-07, 08:52 AM	Sounds like something for errata.
Hariman 03-03-07, 12:49 AM	No argument on the "needs errata" point. BUT... With blanket Martial Weapon Proficiency, who needs simple weapons? The statistically better weapons are all MARTIAL weapons. You only lose out on holdout weapons like the Morningstar without simple weapon proficiency. Most DMs will houserule that Duskblades get simple weapon proficiency. If you do gain Duskblade access in LG, all you need to do is carry a couple backup weapons.
rex_subterrae1008 09-06-07, 11:31 AM	Why WOULD a Duskblade use a simple weapon? I can just imagine one trying to use a club... lol.
UMiskatonic 09-06-07, 11:57 AM	This might come up if you are grappled, and can't use a dagger or a gauntlet to do damage. Is spiked gauntlet martial? I can't remember... Normally, you would use a martial weapon, so it's not a big deal, but it is a curious omission.
rex_subterrae1008 09-06-07, 12:18 PM	This might come up if you are grappled, and can't use a dagger or a gauntlet to do damage. Is spiked gauntlet martial? I can't remember... Normally, you would use a martial weapon, so it's not a big deal, but it is a curious omission. Simple Answer: Don't get grappled... Actually, my personal guess is that it was either originally designed to be a PrC, or it's just another typo...
solbergb 09-06-07, 06:07 PM	Why WOULD a Duskblade use a simple weapon? I can just imagine one trying to use a club... lol. um...javelins? Javelins are what you use until you can get the strength bow, and they still see use until you are BAB6 because they're shield-friendly and polearm-friendly (you only need one hand, you don't have to drop your 2h-weapon or sling your shield to draw and use like a bow) For the rest - you'd need armor spikes instead of spiked gauntlet, you'd use ranseur instead of longspear, kukri instead of dagger, hammers instead of mace or morningstar - it mostly works. Being unable to use a club, sling or crossbow is kind of weird though. The only thing I'd miss is Javelins. The martial list doesn't have any d6 damage 30' range increment thrown weapons. I'd probably pack tridents and pretend I cared more about the d8 damage than the range mod drop to 10'.
Mommy was an Orc 09-06-07, 08:07 PM	The statistically better weapons are all MARTIAL weapons. You only lose out on holdout weapons like the Morningstar without simple weapon proficiency. That's not quite true - there are a bunch of interesting simple weapons that aren't really duplicated elsewhere: Dagger - light weapon, can be thrown, decent crit range(only thrown simple/martial weapon that has this) Club - can be thrown, does just as much damage most of the time as any of the martial throwing weapons. Sickle - only light simple/martial trip weapon. This is surprisingly useful for TWF Rogues. Longspear - can be readied against a charge. Against mindless chargers, can be useful. Club/Quarterstaff - only weapons that can use Oil of Shillelagh. Both daggers and clubs are good for archers who don't yet have Rapid Shot. Clubs being free, means if you drop it, you don't have to hunt it down later if the situation is dire. You shoot, draw a club as you move. Next round, you either throw the club, swing it, or drop the club, shoot, move and draw another one. And Shillelagh on a TWF'er with a Quarterstaff is just nasty at low level. Without doing a crit, in a dungeon delve intro mod, I managed to do 31 hp of damage in a round without critting.
RLWilde 09-07-07, 12:25 AM	Taking the Simple Weapon Proficiency feat will allow the use of all Simple weapons, IIRC.
magebeast 09-07-07, 12:56 AM	Taking the Simple Weapon Proficiency feat will allow the use of all Simple weapons, IIRC. Yes, but why on earth would you waste a feat slot on that?
paigeoliver 09-07-07, 07:59 AM	Since duskblade is NONC then all Living Greyhawk Duskblades will already have one or more levels of some other class, and thus will be proficient in at least some of the simple weapons, likely all of them.
GeorgeFHarris 09-07-07, 10:15 AM	Since duskblade is NONC then all Living Greyhawk Duskblades will already have one or more levels of some other class, and thus will be proficient in at least some of the simple weapons, likely all of them. Not true. My cleric got access to Duskblade, and she is going to take a Dwarven Duskblade Cohort when she levels to 12 and takes the leadership feat. The cohort will be a straight Duskblade. Primarily to take advantage of Arcane Strike and have more spells. GH
solbergb 09-07-07, 12:01 PM	Longspear - can be readied against a charge. Against mindless chargers, can be useful. . Ranseur is strictly superior to longspear and can also be readied against a charge.
mowaca 09-07-07, 02:33 PM	Since Duskblade is NONC (*sniff*), this doesn't impact many, but.... As written, Duskblade does not get simple weapon proficiency. This is rather odd, and Customer Service has passed it on for possible errata. In the meantime, it creates a little pocket of inconsistency for the full BAB guys. David I'm curious why you didn't just ask customer service that question, then post their answer. Even though their answers are not official for LG its helpful for structuring the debate.
KarmaInferno 09-07-07, 02:36 PM	It might help if CS was more consistant. I've emailed the same question twice as a test and come back with two different answers before. -karma
Howie23 09-07-07, 02:53 PM	I'm curious why you didn't just ask customer service that question, then post their answer. Even though their answers are not official for LG its helpful for structuring the debate. Sorry, I don't have a reason for not doing it the way you would have preferred. :) Here you go, from six months ago: Q: My 8-year old noticed this. Duskblades get martial weapon proficiency, but not simple weapon proficiency. This is fairly unusual for full BAB classes. Is this intended, or it is an error? A: As written, no indeed they aren't! This has been noted before and passed along to the appropriate departments internally, but so far no errata is forthcoming. So for now, officially it stands as written, no simple weapon proficiency! Any errata released can be found at the following link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a David
Vamroc 09-07-07, 04:09 PM	It would also make an already gross class even sicker even without rouge levels. Imagine you get grappled now you could Arcane Channel and Dimension hop it away releasing you from the grapple without having to make the check.
Mommy was an Orc 09-07-07, 04:14 PM	Ranseur is strictly superior to longspear and can also be readied against a charge. Ranseurs cannot be readied against a charge for the double damage special. They give +2 to disarm checks. Only Halberds, Tridents, Spear, and Longspears are weapons that can be normally be readied against a charge(of the Simple/Martial variety) - and Longspear is the only reach weapon among them.
solbergb 09-07-07, 07:39 PM	That's what I thought too until somebody showed me I was wrong. I will however not comment further until I get home and look at my PHB, because the SRD disagrees with what I remember being shown in a book....
Mommy was an Orc 09-07-07, 08:09 PM	That's what I thought too until somebody showed me I was wrong. I will however not comment further until I get home and look at my PHB, because the SRD disagrees with what I remember being shown in a book.... I think you're dating yourself Brad :) Ranseurs used to have the ability in 1st, maybe 2nd edition. They definitely didn't have it in 3.0 or 3.5.
Hariman 09-07-07, 09:07 PM	That's not quite true - there are a bunch of interesting simple weapons that aren't really duplicated elsewhere: Dagger - light weapon, can be thrown, decent crit range(only thrown simple/martial weapon that has this) Club - can be thrown, does just as much damage most of the time as any of the martial throwing weapons. Sickle - only light simple/martial trip weapon. This is surprisingly useful for TWF Rogues. Longspear - can be readied against a charge. Against mindless chargers, can be useful. Club/Quarterstaff - only weapons that can use Oil of Shillelagh. Both daggers and clubs are good for archers who don't yet have Rapid Shot. Clubs being free, means if you drop it, you don't have to hunt it down later if the situation is dire. You shoot, draw a club as you move. Next round, you either throw the club, swing it, or drop the club, shoot, move and draw another one. And Shillelagh on a TWF'er with a Quarterstaff is just nasty at low level. Without doing a crit, in a dungeon delve intro mod, I managed to do 31 hp of damage in a round without critting. From what I've seen, Shillelagh only works on ONE end of a quarterstaff. So you'd need TWO Shillelaghs. Also, that character must have either rolled max damage twice or been enlarged. Either case requires a high Strength score. And yes, shillelagh is good. I've used it with my rogue at low levels. As for the other weapons, losing them isn't good. But it's not insurmountable. Duskblades aren't rogues, so tripping with sickles isn't exactly vital. Carrying one or two extra weapons to cover a damage type or two isn't that bad either. Light martial weapons are cheap enough in the long run that losing a few doesn't matter too much.
solbergb 09-07-07, 11:32 PM	I think you're dating yourself Brad :) Ranseurs used to have the ability in 1st, maybe 2nd edition. They definitely didn't have it in 3.0 or 3.5. or the guy who did it and the GM who allowed it. I could have sworn that I made him show it to me, but I was a player at that table, not a judge. Still not home to look it up. Oh well.
mowaca 09-07-07, 11:39 PM	Sorry, I don't have a reason for not doing it the way you would have preferred. :) Here you go, from six months ago: David Thanks! I got a similar answer when I wrote earlier today - Duskblades have simple weapon proficiency, its just missing from page 19. Obviously, a DM could point to page 19 and rule otherwise, but that's unlikely considering the example characters all have javelins.
Mommy was an Orc 09-07-07, 11:54 PM	From what I've seen, Shillelagh only works on ONE end of a quarterstaff. So you'd need TWO Shillelaghs. Also, that character must have either rolled max damage twice or been enlarged. Either case requires a high Strength score. And yes, shillelagh is good. I've used it with my rogue at low levels. Shillelagh specifically mentions in the spell that it works on both ends of a quarterstaff. 31 hp of damage isn't that difficult either. (2d6+5)*2 + animal companion dog bite for 1d6+3 - he was a first level Woodelf Druid with an 18 Str and TWF. Scarily enough, the average damage from all that is about 31 hp of damage. He took out a 3rd or 4th level NPC in one round. We defeated an EL + 5 or so combat.
Howie23 09-08-07, 01:29 AM	Thanks! I got a similar answer when I wrote earlier today - Duskblades have simple weapon proficiency, its just missing from page 19. Obviously, a DM could point to page 19 and rule otherwise, but that's unlikely considering the example characters all have javelins. These are similar replies? Could you post the reply you rec'd? I'm curious as to why you didn't. ;) David
RLWilde 09-08-07, 01:30 AM	Yes, but why on earth would you waste a feat slot on that? Because you want to be able to use simple weapons, for whatever reason? That does seem to be the gist of the thread.
Hariman 09-08-07, 02:31 AM	Shillelagh specifically mentions in the spell that it works on both ends of a quarterstaff. 31 hp of damage isn't that difficult either. (2d6+5)*2 + animal companion dog bite for 1d6+3 - he was a first level Woodelf Druid with an 18 Str and TWF. Scarily enough, the average damage from all that is about 31 hp of damage. He took out a 3rd or 4th level NPC in one round. We defeated an EL + 5 or so combat. Actually, that should be 2d6+5, 2d6+3, and 1d6+3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure that the "off hand" side of a TWFed quartestaff is wielded as a light weapon while two weapon fighting. But that's only a small difference, and it's a useful low level tactic. Also, a duskblade gets a number of spells that let him enhance any weapon without resorting to potions.
rex_subterrae1008 09-08-07, 09:09 AM	Because you want to be able to use simple weapons, for whatever reason? That does seem to be the gist of the thread. Or you could just take a level of Cleric, and get more touch spells to channel as well... lol.
copper_wyrmling 09-08-07, 06:31 PM	Actually, that should be 2d6+5, 2d6+3, and 1d6+3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure that the "off hand" side of a TWFed quartestaff is wielded as a light weapon while two weapon fighting. But that's only a small difference, and it's a useful low level tactic. The problem tends to be hitting - the wood elf druid is at +3/+3 to hit (+4 Str +1 staff -2 TWF), so it's easy for one or both attacks to miss. It is very nice if it all gets through, though.
mowaca 09-08-07, 07:10 PM	These are similar replies? Could you post the reply you rec'd? I'm curious as to why you didn't. ;) David LOL Thank you for writing in. In this case, the examples are in fact correct. Duskblades do have the Simple Weapon proficiency. It was mistakenly left off of page 19. Q.E.D.
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-07, 07:16 PM	The problem tends to be hitting - the wood elf druid is at +3/+3 to hit (+4 Str +1 staff -2 TWF), so it's easy for one or both attacks to miss. It is very nice if it all gets through, though. You're forgetting the potential extra +6 :) +2 Flank, +4 Opponent Prone due to Animal Companion Tripping them
Hariman 09-08-07, 08:27 PM	You're forgetting the potential extra +6 :) +2 Flank, +4 Opponent Prone due to Animal Companion Tripping them Better yet, have the party TWF rogue use an oil of Shillelagh on HIS staff, so that his damage goes up. All you need is a flanker for SA goodness! At first level, being able to double the weapon damage alone means a great deal.
copper_wyrmling 09-08-07, 08:40 PM	You're forgetting the potential extra +6 :) +2 Flank, +4 Opponent Prone due to Animal Companion Tripping them Hahaha. Yes, this is a good point, and makes it much easier to pull off :)
Howie23 09-08-07, 09:17 PM	Q.E.D. I'd say the reply you rec'd has evolved from mine. Customer Service is now identifying it as an error, even if errata hasn't been published for it yet. So, progress continues, albeit slowly. :) Thanks for sharing, and for the sense of humor. David
Hariman 09-08-07, 11:22 PM	Hahaha. Yes, this is a good point, and makes it much easier to pull off :) Ask your local wizard to toss in a Ray of Clumsiness to make it even more fun!
solbergb 09-10-07, 01:40 PM	The other problem with the TWF first level druid with 18 strength at APL4 is his hitpoint total.... if he fails to kill the bad guy, he's going to get swatted.
Mommy was an Orc 09-10-07, 07:50 PM	The other problem with the TWF first level druid with 18 strength at APL4 is his hitpoint total.... if he fails to kill the bad guy, he's going to get swatted. That wasn't a big issue - in the event I'm referring to, you were routinely expecting to fight level 3 to 6 level characters with beginning intro characters that would get no AR, xp or gold as a result, but it would influence what happened at the interactive. Getting swatted tended to leave people dying regardless of what their hit points were. It was actually kind of funny - my Beguiler build I was planning to use I ran through the first time, and he ended up being part of a group that defeated a 6th level archer. Which he took as a sign he should take up adventuring.