Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gaelforcwynd 01-22-07, 02:57 AM	Any suggestions on improving this Dwarven Fighter build. Again, this is for Perrenland. Any Alignment Dwarf Fighter ABILITY SCORES STR: 14 (+2) DEX: 14 (+2) CON: 18 (+4) INT: 8 (-1) WIS: 14 (+2) CHA: 6 (-2) I was thinking that decent DEX and WIS scores will help with Ref and Will saves, which the Fighter class is weak in. Low INT and CHA don't really matter for a pure Fighter. SKILLS Tumble - Max (This seems to have some potential) I'm thinking that Tumble looks pretty good for getting into the thick of things and flanking enemies. Battlefield mechanics isn't my strong point though. I would only get 4 skill points at 1st lvl with an INT of 8 anyway. Help me out here. FEATS Power Attack Cleave I might consider Skill Focus: Tumble as well, but the others seem better. I don't know what skills and feats will be available after 3rd lvl, because I only have the PHB and DMG at the moment. I will have to get a copy of the CA or something. I wish there was a website outlining all the core skills and feats somewhere on the internet. So am I on the right track here? Is this a potentially good build?
Cynric 01-22-07, 04:10 AM	I have a fighter barbarian that has moved from Perrenland to Ratik recently. 2 levels of barbarian Fighter to 6 then go one level of accoult slayer for every two levels of fighter. Even with a wisdom of 10 he still handles himself well. From memory. Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 or 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 6 Feats 1 Power Attack 3 Weapon foces Waraxe and dodge 4 imp initiative 6 Mobility and Elusive target. 7 Occoult Slayer This is where he is at now 9 Imp Tougness and Titan fighting. 12 Sunder and combat brute 15 Bullrush and Shocktrooper. So far he is going ok in his mithral full plate. He may not hit like the spiked chain\great sword build, but things have a hell of a time hitting him. Plus he can deal out the damage when needed.
clannagh 01-22-07, 06:01 PM	Any suggestions on improving this Dwarven Fighter build. Again, this is for Perrenland. Any Alignment Dwarf Fighter ABILITY SCORES STR: 14 (+2) DEX: 14 (+2) CON: 18 (+4) INT: 8 (-1) WIS: 14 (+2) CHA: 6 (-2) I was thinking that decent DEX and WIS scores will help with Ref and Will saves, which the Fighter class is weak in. Low INT and CHA don't really matter for a pure Fighter. SKILLS Tumble - Max (This seems to have some potential) I'm thinking that Tumble looks pretty good for getting into the thick of things and flanking enemies. Battlefield mechanics isn't my strong point though. I would only get 4 skill points at 1st lvl with an INT of 8 anyway. Help me out here. FEATS Power Attack Cleave I might consider Skill Focus: Tumble as well, but the others seem better. I don't know what skills and feats will be available after 3rd lvl, because I only have the PHB and DMG at the moment. I will have to get a copy of the CA or something. I wish there was a website outlining all the core skills and feats somewhere on the internet. So am I on the right track here? Is this a potentially good build? Unless you are doing straight fighter for ascetic reasons you need to think a bit laterally. The standard dwarf fighter build you usually see uses levels of deepwarden meaning dex can be a dump stat. A typical dwarf "fighter" builds usually starts with a level of Barbarian (dwarf con mean a good rage build) or some ranger (because ranger is the easiest way to qualify for deepwarden) as either of these gives better skill points than fighter at level one.
Gaelforcwynd 01-25-07, 01:35 AM	Unless you are doing straight fighter for ascetic reasons you need to think a bit laterally. Well, yes I was thinking of the aesthetics of it. So you're saying that there's no real point in developing a pure Fighter? I only have access to the PHB at the moment so I don't really know what's available PrC wise. The Dwarven Defender PrC in the DMG looks attractive though. I wasn't too concerned with skill points either.
jstorrie 01-25-07, 01:26 PM	There's nothing wrong with straight fighter in the early levels, if you're aiming for Dwarven Defender - 1 Fighter Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting 2 Fighter Improved Shield Bash 3 Fighter Shield Charge 4 Fighter Dodge 5 Fighter 6 Fighter Endurance, Shield Slam 7 Fighter 8 Dwarven Defender 9 Dwarven Defender Power Attack &c. But consider that if you're making a lawful, tough and disciplined dwarf, you can hit the same feel with some multiclassing - and maybe eke a little extra power out: 1 Ranger Toughness, Track 2 Monk Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple 3 Monk Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line 4 Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting 5 Fighter Dodge 6 Fighter Improved Shield Bash, Endurance 7 Deepwarden 8 Deepwarden 9 Dwarven Defender Shield Charge &c. It all depends how enamoured you are with the aesthetic of 'pure fighter.' There are a number of variations you can fit into either build - EWM for Uncanny Blow or the Three Mountains weapon style feat are both alternative choices to shield-bashing, for example. If you don't plan to use a shield you can easily go for two-handed Power Attacking with either build. But I should note that if you multiclass into Monk and/or Ranger, you don't need Dex to get TWF or Combat Reflexes, and likewise if you dip Deepwarden you don't need Dex for AC, allowing you to start with 16 Str and 16 (18) Con, a great boost in the low levels.
Gaelforcwynd 01-26-07, 02:01 AM	It all depends how enamoured you are with the aesthetic of 'pure fighter.' There are a number of variations you can fit into either build - EWM for Uncanny Blow or the Three Mountains weapon style feat are both alternative choices to shield-bashing, for example. If you don't plan to use a shield you can easily go for two-handed Power Attacking with either build. But I should note that if you multiclass into Monk and/or Ranger, you don't need Dex to get TWF or Combat Reflexes, and likewise if you dip Deepwarden you don't need Dex for AC, allowing you to start with 16 Str and 16 (18) Con, a great boost in the low levels. Which splat book can I find the Deepwarden PrC in?
jstorrie 01-26-07, 02:55 AM	Races of Stone.
Gaelforcwynd 01-26-07, 04:59 PM	Races of Stone. Ok thanks. What I'm really trying to do is find optimal builds for core base classes, hence the Dwarven Fighter idea.
jstorrie 01-26-07, 05:11 PM	I was toying with a Dwarven Defender build earlier this afternoon, and it's (forgive the abbreviations! it's just fighter, ranger, deepwarden, dwarven defender) 1 Rgr Track, Dodge 2 Rgr Rapid Shot 3 Ftr Brutal Throw, Quick Draw 4 Ftr Toughness 5 Rgr Endurance 6 Dwd Power Attack 7 Dwd 8 DwDf 9 DwDf Mobility 10 DwDf 11 DwDf 12 DwDf Elusive Target 13 DwDf 14 DwDf 15 DwDf Power Throw Brutal Throw/Quickdraw are for those annoying situations when you Defensive Stance and people just move out of reach. Deepwarden/Ranger is a nice combination because you can get your full AC potential out of a mithril breastplate, without losing your combat style.
trollbill 01-26-07, 05:44 PM	I was looking at the DDM Thundertusk Cavalry and thinking it might make for a fun dwarf build. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mg/bw Came up with the following: Race: Hill Dwarf ST: 16 DX: 8 CN: 17 IN: 14 WS: 12 CH: 6 Level 1: Ranger- Improved Shield Bash, Favored Enemy-Giant+2, Wild Empathy, Track Level 2: Ranger- Two-Weapon Fighting Level 3: Ranger- Endurance, Power Attack Level 4: Ranger- CN+1, Animal Companion Level 5: Ranger- Favored Enemy-Giant+4, Favored Enemy-Goblinoid+2 Level 6: Deepwarden- Skill Focus (handle animal), Trap Sense +1 Level 7: Deepwarden- Stonewarden Level 8: Ranger- CN+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Level 9: Beastmaster- Mounted Combat, Animal Companion, Wild Empathy Level 10: Wild Plains Outrider- Animal Companion, Wild Plains Stalker, Ride bonus Level 11: Wild Plains Outrider- Wild Plains Swiftness Level 12: Wild Plains Outrider- CN+1, Ride-by Attack, Wild Plains Offense Level 13: Fighter- Spirited Charge Level 14: Deepwarden- Animal Messenger Level 15: Deepwarden- Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2, Blindfight He doesn't really become cavalry until Level 9, and even with a spiked heavy shield his AC will be mediocre until he hits level 7, at which point it shoots through the roof. He makes a great meat shield and doesn't suck in combat (albeit he'd be more effective with a two handed weapon), and brings a fair amount of useful skills to the table.
SYB 01-26-07, 07:06 PM	Don't get too dismayed by the general responses. Most of the people responding have become jaded. Straight fighter is still a perfectly reasonable way to go. Just don't forget to take advantage of Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization and try to follow a nice powerful chain of feats. All the Dwarven Defenders and Deepwardens will be jealous of your 12 feats at 12th level. -SYB
JamesMaissen 01-26-07, 08:19 PM	Don't get too dismayed by the general responses. Most of the people responding have become jaded. Straight fighter is still a perfectly reasonable way to go. Just don't forget to take advantage of Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization and try to follow a nice powerful chain of feats. All the Dwarven Defenders and Deepwardens will be jealous of your 12 feats at 12th level. -SYB Well perhaps I'm a bit jaded, but 3rd edition D&D changed multiclassing into design your own class. Towards that 'pure fighter' isn't really 'pure' in any sense. It's merely an option like any other. It is not better or worse, just an option. Take a look at what each level you take will give you and what it won't. Make the decisions based upon that. The mechanics of your class have nothing to do with the roleplaying of your character. Make the decision based on what you want for the character. If you have need for more feats then levels of fighter are valuable. While skills and other special class abilities might be flashy if you have need for the feats then another pair of fighter levels to get one can be very valid. However don't just stay fighter to be a 'pure' fighter as your character's mechanical build is not tattoo'd on their forehead. Likewise don't be blinded by the flash of a PrC, either it's name or some 'cool' special ability. I would take a step back and go slower. Ask yourself what you want out of your character and then look to achieve it. I would suggest that for a 'fighter' (archetype not mechanical class) that you take atmost one BAB hit in your build upto atleast 12th level, as anymore and you are closer to a combat rogue without sneak attack. Decide if you want to be lightly armored or heavily armored, and if you want to be more offensive oriented or defensive oriented. This will start to give you ideas. Start considering how you will act in combat. While it's possible to be malliable in fighting styles, it's a harder road to tread. -James PS: Deepwarden is a nice PrC, but can suffer from 'paying early for later abilities'. In general decide if its worthwhile for you to be less effective early on to be more effective later on. If you take a hollistic view of your character then such decisions can be made in proper perspective.
Mithreinmaethor 01-26-07, 10:25 PM	Here is a Dwarven build I was working on. He will be armed with a Dwarven Warpike (2d6 / x3 with Reach and can Trip with and Brace against a Charge) and a Dwarven Axe Buckler (1d6 / x3). 1 - Fighter - Combat Expertise / Bonus Feat: Improved Trip 2 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Power Attack 3 - Fighter - Toughness 4 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Improved Weapon Familiarity 5 - Fighter 6 - Fighter - Endurance / Bonus Feat: Dodge 7 - Barbarian - Fast Movement +10' / Rage 1/day 8 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 1/day 9 - Dwarven Defender - Cleave / Uncanny Dodge 10 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 2/day 11 - Dwarven Defender - Trap Sense +2 12 - Dwarven Defender - Extra Rage / Defensive Stance 3/day 13 - Dwarven Defender - DR 3/- / Improved Uncanny Dodge 14 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 4/day 15 - Dwarven Defender - (Feat ?) / Mobile Defense / Trap Sense +3 I am not really sold on going Dwarven Defender yet though. And see no reason to take the Deepwarden levels (most of the heavy armors I will wear only offer a 1 dex bonus). Of course I cant get access to my cool weapons until 4th level in this build which sucks. Which is why I am thinking of dropping the Dwarven Defender completely or until a much later level.
jstorrie 01-27-07, 02:59 PM	Mithril Fullplate offers a max dex of +3. If you're going with a dex of 10, that's three points of AC that Deepwarden squeezes out; it also saves you 6000gp if you go with Mithril Breastplate, instead, and also allows you to carry a medium instead of heavy load. Are you sure you can get access to Dwarven Warpike and Dwarven Axe-Buckler?
Mithreinmaethor 01-27-07, 04:38 PM	Yeah my Dwarven Meta-org has access to both items. And if I stick with wanting to take levels of Dwarven Defender my Dex will have to be at least a 13 to get Dodge. And with Endurance and Toughness not being Fighter Bonus Feats it really shrinks how I can lay out my feats. I may do this though. 1 - Fighter - Combat Expertise / Bonus Feat: Improved Trip 2 - Barbarian - Fast Movement +10' / Rage 1/day 3 - Fighter 4 - Fighter - Improved Weapon Familiarity / Bonus Feat: Power Attack 5 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (Dwarven Warpike) 6 - Fighter - Toughness 7 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Warpike) 8 - Fighter 9 - Fighter - Endurance / Bonus Feat: Dodge 10 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 1/day 11 - Dwarven Defender - Uncanny Dodge 12 - Dwarven Defender - Extra Rage / Defensive Stance 2/day 13 - Dwarven Defender - Trap Sense +1 14 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 3/day 15 - Dwarven Defender - (Feat ?) / Improved Uncanny Dodge / DR 3/- You know I am surprised no one caught this or at least posted that they caught it. But I cant have a Barbarian level and be a Dwarven Defender. Damn having to be lawful :)
Gaelforcwynd 01-27-07, 09:43 PM	Don't get too dismayed by the general responses. Most of the people responding have become jaded. Straight fighter is still a perfectly reasonable way to go. Just don't forget to take advantage of Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization and try to follow a nice powerful chain of feats. All the Dwarven Defenders and Deepwardens will be jealous of your 12 feats at 12th level. -SYB OK SYB, Thank you! :D
Gaelforcwynd 01-27-07, 09:46 PM	Well perhaps I'm a bit jaded, but 3rd edition D&D changed multiclassing into design your own class. Towards that 'pure fighter' isn't really 'pure' in any sense. It's merely an option like any other. It is not better or worse, just an option. Take a look at what each level you take will give you and what it won't. Make the decisions based upon that. The mechanics of your class have nothing to do with the roleplaying of your character. Make the decision based on what you want for the character. If you have need for more feats then levels of fighter are valuable. While skills and other special class abilities might be flashy if you have need for the feats then another pair of fighter levels to get one can be very valid. However don't just stay fighter to be a 'pure' fighter as your character's mechanical build is not tattoo'd on their forehead. Likewise don't be blinded by the flash of a PrC, either it's name or some 'cool' special ability. I would take a step back and go slower. Ask yourself what you want out of your character and then look to achieve it. I would suggest that for a 'fighter' (archetype not mechanical class) that you take atmost one BAB hit in your build upto atleast 12th level, as anymore and you are closer to a combat rogue without sneak attack. Decide if you want to be lightly armored or heavily armored, and if you want to be more offensive oriented or defensive oriented. This will start to give you ideas. Start considering how you will act in combat. While it's possible to be malliable in fighting styles, it's a harder road to tread. -James PS: Deepwarden is a nice PrC, but can suffer from 'paying early for later abilities'. In general decide if its worthwhile for you to be less effective early on to be more effective later on. If you take a hollistic view of your character then such decisions can be made in proper perspective. Point taken James. Cheers. :)
trollbill 01-27-07, 11:25 PM	Point taken James. Cheers. :) Yes, by all means, build whatever you want to play. These are just some ideas we are tossing out. And certainly not the only way to go. In the end, it doesn't matter how optimized your character is if you aren't having fun playing it.
Asaris 01-28-07, 01:54 PM	I really enjoy playing my Dwarven fighter/future tempest. (six levels of fighter, then tempest). Yeah, it's probably not ideal from a technical perspective, but he's a lot of fun to play. 2 waraxes is nice :)
Mithreinmaethor 01-29-07, 12:47 AM	Well I have thought and thought about this. And I think I have come up with where I am going with my Dwarf. Please feel free to critique it and give me adivce. Thanks Hill Dwarf (S:16 D:12 C:16 I:14 W:10 C:6) 1 - Fighter - Combat Expertise (Bonus Feat: Improved Trip) 2 - Fighter - (Bonus Feat: Power Attack) 3 - Fighter - Improved Weapon Famliarity 4 - Fighter - (Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus: Dwarven Warpike) 5 - Ranger 6 - Ranger - Dodge 7 - Ranger 8 - Deepwarden 9 - Deepwarden - Toughness 10 - Dwarven Defender 11 - Dwarven Defender 12 - Dwarven Defender - Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Warpike 13 - Dwarven Defender 14 - Dwarven Defender 15 - Dwarven Defender - Feat ?????
jstorrie 01-29-07, 01:41 AM	I think that'd do very well, yes. It's well-rounded and pretty high-power (and warpikes are just sick!)
Mithreinmaethor 01-29-07, 01:54 AM	now now. its just a greatsword with reach and you can trip with it :) would it be asking too much I wonder if since it says its a halberd with a longer shaft etc that it qualify for the spinning halberd combat feat :)
Nutation 01-29-07, 03:35 AM	If you can start with Ranger and postpone a feat 1 level, it's worth 12 skill points to you.
Mithreinmaethor 01-29-07, 03:58 AM	Yes unfortunatey I wish I would have thought about that. But this character is already 2nd level (was my Bright Lands character). And he will be 3rd level soon. I just made him to play the 1st Bright Sands mod. But figured since I have him I might as well make something out of him :)
GeorgeFHarris 01-29-07, 01:39 PM	I'm working on a: Ranger3/Barbarian2/DeepWarden2/Bear Warrior(1 or 5)/Warshaper build. You get the Constitution through the roof in Bear form, and that constitution adds to your AC. GH
SYB 01-29-07, 04:22 PM	To Mith, Keep in mind that you are going to have to boost your Dexterity by 1 at 4th level to qualify for the Dodge feat. -SYB
Mithreinmaethor 01-29-07, 04:52 PM	Yep thats where it was heading :) I hate having to waste a good stat bump ike that :)
_m_ 01-29-07, 05:36 PM	stop going fighter at first lvl. mechanically, you gain precisely.... nothing by going fighter first. if you plan to go barbarian or ranger somewhere in your first few lvls, do it first. ranger 1, or barbarian 1 are significantly better than fighter 1.
Mithreinmaethor 01-29-07, 07:00 PM	stop going fighter at first lvl. mechanically, you gain precisely.... nothing by going fighter first. if you plan to go barbarian or ranger somewhere in your first few lvls, do it first. ranger 1, or barbarian 1 are significantly better than fighter 1. Well he was just created on the fly to play the Bright Sands intro mod. Didnt have many plans for him past that. But well now that I have him and have actually had need to play him enough to get him 2nd level I thought I better plan out the rest of his life. So by the time I figured out what I should do with him it was too late to go back and take Ranger for 1st level.
JamesMaissen 01-29-07, 08:01 PM	Yep thats where it was heading :) I hate having to waste a good stat bump ike that :) Consider what dwarven defender is costing you. Ask yourself if it's worth the cost. What does it give you for that cost? Personally I would see what else you could do with the stat bump and feats (and somewhat class selection) if not deciding on Dwf Def and see if I might be better off. For example barbarian and exotic weapon master might prove to be better for you, or they might not. Et cetera. -James
jhorred 01-29-07, 08:33 PM	Our local Deep Warden wears a Mithral Chain shirt to get the max dex/con bonus to his AC for the Touch AC. He has almost 100HP at 8th level. I think he plans on running the DW class out to the end.
_m_ 01-29-07, 09:52 PM	Well he was just created on the fly to play the Bright Sands intro mod. Didnt have many plans for him past that. But well now that I have him and have actually had need to play him enough to get him 2nd level I thought I better plan out the rest of his life. So by the time I figured out what I should do with him it was too late to go back and take Ranger for 1st level. thats fair enough, but in general, fighter isnt a better first lvl than ANYTHING. *grin*
Japangirl 01-30-07, 01:22 AM	thats fair enough, but in general, fighter isnt a better first lvl than ANYTHING. *grin* Unless you want to do paladin/fighter. Sadly, you can't go paladin 1/fighter 1/paladin X because of the ex-paladin rules. Same with monk.
_m_ 01-30-07, 04:45 PM	Unless you want to do paladin/fighter. Sadly, you can't go paladin 1/fighter 1/paladin X because of the ex-paladin rules. Same with monk. lol thanks japan. here i am looking all smrat and u had to go ruin it.
Alpha_Nerd 01-30-07, 04:52 PM	lol thanks japan. here i am looking all smrat and u had to go ruin it. lol smrat
_m_ 01-30-07, 05:26 PM	lol smrat *grin*
clannagh 01-30-07, 06:04 PM	lol thanks japan. here i am looking all smrat and u had to go ruin it. there are exceptions for paladins including hospitaller, ranger if you take devoted tracker and (or so i believe without looking it up) wild plains outrider .. but fighter "aint wun o' dem"
_m_ 01-30-07, 06:17 PM	there are exceptions for paladins including hospitaller, ranger if you take devoted tracker and (or so i believe without looking it up) wild plains outrider .. but fighter "aint wun o' dem" there are also chaotic good paladins...
Japangirl 01-30-07, 11:27 PM	lol thanks japan. here i am looking all smrat and u had to go ruin it. Ahahahahaha my task here is done!
_m_ 01-31-07, 06:46 PM	Ahahahahaha my task here is done! lol, ur as bad at derailment as i am *grin*