Dwarf Tank Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dwarf Tank Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oogar
09-16-06, 03:49 PM Building a Dwarf Tank, looking for some Input (Current builds owe some homage to a build by MWAO).

Yes, there will be an XP penalty - part of the plan.

The single level of EWM (Exotic Weapon Master) can be adjusted earlier in builds if Animated Shield Access is found.

Version 1

Level Class Feats Fort Ref Will HP
1 Barbarian 1 WF: Dwarven War Axe 2 0 0 16
2 Ranger 1 Track 4 2 0 25
3 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Extra Rage 6 2 0 35
4 Ranger 2 Two Weapon Fighting 7 3 0 44
5 Ranger 3 Endurance 7 3 1 53
6 Deepwarden 1 True Believer 9 3 3 64
7 Deepwarden 2 10 3 4 75
8 Pious Templar 1 *Mettle* 12 3 6 85
9 Pious Templar 2 Improved Bullrush 13 3 7 95
10 Pious Templar 3 WS: Dwarven War Axe 13 4 7 105
11 Pious Templar 4 Shock Trooper 14 4 8 115
12 EWM 1 Imp Sunder, *uncanny blow* 16 4 8 125
13 Fighter 2 Combat Brute 17 4 8 135
14 Deepwarden 3 17 5 8 146
15 Deepwarden 4 Reckless Rage? 18 5 9 157

Version 2

Level Class Feats Fort Ref Will HP
1 Barbarian 1 WF: Dwarven War Axe 2 0 0 16
2 Ranger 1 Track 4 2 0 25
3 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Extra Rage 6 2 0 35
4 Ranger 2 Two Weapon Fighting 7 3 0 44
5 Ranger 3 Endurance 7 3 1 53
6 Deepwarden 1 Improved Initiative 9 3 3 64
7 Deepwarden 2 10 3 4 75
8 Occult Slayer 1 10 3 6 84
9 Occult Slayer 2 Reckless Rage 10 3 7 93
10 Occult Slayer 3 11 4 7 102
11 Occult Slayer 4 11 4 8 111
12 Occult Slayer 5 True Believer 11 4 8 120
13 Pious Templar 1 *Mettle* 13 4 10 130
14 EWM 1 *Uncanny Blow* 15 4 10 140
15 Fighter 2 Imp Bullrush + Shock Trooper? 17 4 10 150
Mommy was an Orc
09-16-06, 04:51 PM The builds don't work - Gendwar Argrim is LN and the only one who lets you get into Pious Templar. Can't be non-lawful as only Neutral Deities can have Neutral Pious Templars, which means no raging...

That's the reason I skipped over the obvious Barbarian 1 level.
JamesMaissen
09-16-06, 05:40 PM Building a Dwarf Tank, looking for some Input (Current builds owe some homage to a build by MWAO).

Yes, there will be an XP penalty - part of the plan.

The single level of EWM (Exotic Weapon Master) can be adjusted earlier in builds if Animated Shield Access is found.

List out your goals and what you want to look to avoid.

1. Consider for example how a pair of Monk levels will benefit you. Your dex is tanked, but depending on your CON you may soon find yourself out of armor anyway.. might as well get WIS to add to the AC as well.

2. Consider simply ditching Pious Templar (which you will have to do for Diety based reasons anyway) as it's causing too much trouble for you. The spells are nice and the weapon spec is cute... but spells and mettle are not worth cramping your stride for... tap Occult slayer for the will saves if they are dire and you have a feat to burn.

3. Consider EWM with the urgosh or spiked chain instead of Dwf War Axe and use the flurry instead of just more strength.

4. Don't focus too late in your character's career that you don't understand how long a road it is to get there. Don't get me wrong.. it's ESSENTIAL to plan. Just don't have all the payoffs at the end of the character and all the payment up front or you may find yourself just as unhappy.

-James
Oogar
09-16-06, 06:08 PM The builds don't work - Gendwar Argrim is LN and the only one who lets you get into Pious Templar. Can't be non-lawful as only Neutral Deities can have Neutral Pious Templars, which means no raging...

That's the reason I skipped over the obvious Barbarian 1 level.

I accept that I must have overlooked something, and you are probably right. Can you give me the location of this information though? True Believer only says that you must be one step from the God's Alignment - not the same alignment, so I thought I was correct in the requirements for this build.

James - I appreciate the comments, and will consider them, but currently I am more curious about how badly I messed up on the understanding of Pious Templar =)
Mommy was an Orc
09-16-06, 06:36 PM I accept that I must have overlooked something, and you are probably right. Can you give me the location of this information though? True Believer only says that you must be one step from the God's Alignment - not the same alignment, so I thought I was correct in the requirements for this build.

Page 2 of the Deities 2.0 document - PrCs that worship specific deities are treated as being clerics/favored souls for purposes of alignment restrictions. And specifically, a cleric/favored soul may not be neutral unless its deity's alignment is also neutral and you're not allowed to go more than 1 step away from your deity's alignment on one axis.

Tricky - lots of people get messed up on that - I've seen a Paladin of Kelanen once...
Oogar
09-16-06, 08:10 PM Page 2 of the Deities 2.0 document - PrCs that worship specific deities are treated as being clerics/favored souls for purposes of alignment restrictions. And specifically, a cleric/favored soul may not be neutral unless its deity's alignment is also neutral and you're not allowed to go more than 1 step away from your deity's alignment on one axis.

Tricky - lots of people get messed up on that - I've seen a Paladin of Kelanen once...

So that means that a Cleric or Favored Soul of Moradin MUST be Lawful Good, Because Moradin is not Neutral on either Axis? So... really the only freedom of alignment choices fall to those gods that don't care either way about 1 ethos axis? How very, very strange. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I see the ruling as awful, but that IS the ruling.
JosephKell
09-16-06, 08:37 PM So that means that a Cleric or Favored Soul of Moradin MUST be Lawful Good, Because Moradin is not Neutral on either Axis? So... really the only freedom of alignment choices fall to those gods that don't care either way about 1 ethos axis? How very, very strange. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I see the ruling as awful, but that IS the ruling.No. That means a Cleric/Favored Soul/Pious Templar must be LG, NG, or LN.

I'm gonna use the "Priest" to represent the Clerics, Favored Souls, and Pious Templars.

The rule is 1 step off on only one axis (or less). But, Neutral-Neutral Priest must worship Neutral-Neutral Deities.

So since Gendwar Argrim is LN. You must be LG or LN to worship Gendwar Argrim as a Priest.

You could just do Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Dwarven Defender 2/Pious Templar 4 and be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good.

Example 1: Pelor is Neutral Good. Priests of Pelor must be Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good. Because a Neutral-Neutral Priest can't worship a non-Neutral-Neutral Deity.

Example 2: St. Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral. Priests of St. Cuthbert can only be Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good because St. Cuthbert grants Turn Undead (not Rebuke).
Oogar
09-16-06, 08:44 PM No. That means a Cleric/Favored Soul/Pious Templar must be LG, NG, or LN.

With Moradin? It looks like "A Cleric/ Favored Soul may not be Neutral unless it's Diety is also Neutral." (from the Dieties Document) says otherwise. Unless they meant 'Neutral' to be standing in for 'Neutral-Neutral'. But it doesn't say that.

Either way, I accept that my build is shot - Oh well.
JosephKell
09-16-06, 08:47 PM With Moradin? It looks like "A Cleric/ Favored Soul may not be Neutral unless it's Diety is also Neutral." (from the Dieties Document) says otherwise. Unless they meant 'Neutral' to be standing in for 'Neutral-Neutral'. But it doesn't say that.

Either way, I accept that my build is shot - Oh well.Are you trying to be difficult?

When you just see "Neutral" it means they aren't Good or Evil and not Lawful or Chaotic. Basically it is "Neutral-Neutral" or "True Neutral"

A Priest of Moradin (LG Diety) must be LG, LN, or NG.

LG is the same as the Diety. LN is one step different on ONE axis (the GvE axis). And NG is one step different on ONE axis (the LvC axis).
Oogar
09-16-06, 08:54 PM *chuckle* not trying to be difficult, sometimes I just am. I do wish they had used the term True Neutral though, that would have saved me minutes when I was looking at it. Now that I think on it, I wish it were worded that way in the cleric section of the PHB as well.
beyowulf
09-17-06, 09:39 AM 1. Consider for example how a pair of Monk levels will benefit you. Your dex is tanked, but depending on your CON you may soon find yourself out of armor anyway.. might as well get WIS to add to the AC as well.

You have to Lawful to become a Monk. That means if you're going to take Monk levels, you need to take them before Barbarian levels, as a Barbarian who becomes Lawful can no longer rage.
Cynric
09-17-06, 07:00 PM I have something similar at level 5. Barbarian 2 Fighter 3, Going to take 1 level of Occult slayer, but apart from that it is going to be fighter ao barbarian till retiremant. Already have dodge, mobilty, Power attack and Weapon focus (waraxe). Planning on Improved toughness, elusive target, titan fighting at least. That way I should have lots of hit points and a decent AC, only problem is will saves.
clik_ml
09-18-06, 08:39 AM For a dwarf hp-monster type tank, going 15 Barbarian isn't a horrible option.

14/14/18/8/14/6
bumps to con
Feats
1)PowAtk
3)ImpToughness
6)RecklessRage

You'll be packing at least 95HP at level 6 when raging, and at least 305HP at level 15 (and you will rage all day every day of course)

One could also sub in a level of EWMaster to either add double strength to a waraxe or flurry with a spiked chain of course.

Alternate Dwarven Tank if you still like the Pious Templar... as a plus, it works with the Dwarven Waraxe deity (Gendwar Argrim) too. It's a build I was pondering for a very old suel human worshiper of Lendor(greatsword), but minor tweaking can make it dwarf-friendly.

5 Pal/10 Pious Templar
14/8/16/8/14/14
bumps to cha
1)WFocus
3)TrueBeliever
6)DivineMight
8)WSpec
9)PowAtk
9)ExtraTurning
12)Leadership(mostly for help forming tables at high APL, since that's often a burden)
13)ImpTough
15)DivineVigor

Notion being smite/divine might/divine sacrifice, for loads of damage.
3 smites by level 6 is kind of nice.

A non-cha based version of the build might go:
7 Cleric (Gendwar Argrim)/8 PiousTemplar
14/14/18/8/14/6
bumps to con or wis
1)WFocus
1)PowAtk
3)TrueBeliever
6)CraftWonder
9)PracticedSpellcaster(cleric, for item crafting)
10)WSpec

11,12,15,15)
Options:
ImpTough, ExtraSmite, CraftArms, ImpBullRush+ShockTrooper, GreaterResiliency,ImpInit(since by this point you may be sick of cleric speed jokes)

One could fiddle with the stats to swap con and wis for 16/16 instead of 18/14, then put a couple bumps to wisdom in order to get three 4th level spells per day. It's sad missing out on Righteous Wrath of the Faithful tho. My bard will be using that spell with limited wishes some day and still thinking it a bargain.

My favorite thing about all of the builds above are that they have respectable HP and will saves... damage output isn't bad either.
Gelth
09-18-06, 12:26 PM I have a Dwarf Tank, currently Fighter 10 and climbing. You could do worse.
The extra 1 hitpoint/level for Barbarian gets less relevant with a high Con, it's a smaller percent of your hitpoints.
Lawful fits dwarves much, much better than nonlawful, and particularly barbarian, thematically.
Fighter gets you tower shield access for that extra AC.

My current feat list is as follows (not in the order I took them):
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
Elusive Traget
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Titan Fighting

This gets me to a starting AC of 30, and it just goes up (say, any time I can dodge, or use mobility, or expertise....). I also have lots of hitpoints and can hit reasonably hard.
Best of all, nothing the build relies on is anything other than Core access.

--Penn, Ket Triad
chesspiece
09-18-06, 12:27 PM 5 Pal/10 Pious Templar
14/8/16/8/14/14
bumps to cha
1)WFocus
3)TrueBeliever
6)DivineMight
8)WSpec
9)PowAtk
9)ExtraTurning

Those are some fine dwarf builds! One correction though - I believe that Power Attack is a prereq for Divine Might. You could do it this way:
6)ExtraTurning
8)WSpec
9)PowAtk
9)DivineMight

It's a long time to wait for Power Attack though. That could be remedied with a Ftr level, but you'd lose 1 smite & your mount or else delay PT.
clik_ml
09-18-06, 05:30 PM One correction though - I believe that Power Attack is a prereq for Divine Might. You could do it this way:
...
It's a long time to wait for Power Attack though. That could be remedied with a Ftr level, but you'd lose 1 smite & your mount or else delay PT.

Whoops, sorry bout the error. The human version took PowAtk at level 1 and didn't have any fuss. I concur on the long wait being much to bear. I might just sub in Divine Vigor early and bump extra turning back to 15th level. Oh well. Who would have thought that losing 1 feat would be such a bother?

Thanks for the heads-up.
JosephKell
09-19-06, 03:53 PM Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 10 also works.

Sure you don't get a special mount, but unless you are gonna keep your mount progression going, it turns into a summonable that just dies for you (which isn't very paladin-like and also requires you to wait 4 TU before you can use it again).

1 Pal 1: Smite Evil 1/day, Detect Evil, Weapon Focus (Waraxe)
2 Pal 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
3 Pal 3: True Believer, Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4 Pal 4: Turn Undead
5 Pal 4/Ftr 1: Power Attack
6 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 1: Mettle, Divine Might
7 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 2: Smite 1/day
8 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Waraxe)
9 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 4: Bonus Feat*, Feat*

*9th level is a good opportunity to get Combat Brute (Improved Bullrush) or Shock Trooper (Improved Sunder). Or you could take Divine Vigor (+10 ft speed and +2 Temp hp per HD for 1 min per Cha modifier, standard action to start uses 1 Turn attempt) and Improved Initiative (take levels of Occult Slayer). Or Divine Vigor and Extra Turning.

Also, Exotic Weapon Master has only 3 extra skill investments for a Pious Templar of Gendwar Argrim (Craft - Weaponsmithing). It could make your 2H style with the Waraxe a lot more devastating. In fact, you could take EWM as your 9th level, pick up Improved Initiative, then your 10th level as Occult Slayer.

Divine Grace is gonna be very important because your Reflex save is gonna be a joke (better than most Muts though). But hey, Dwarves get +2 vs spells and spell-like abilities... so Dodging Fireballs as a Dwarf Paladin can't be that hard.

Alternatively, you get feats (asterisked ones are Fighter list) at 1st, 3rd, 5th*, 6th, 9th, 9th*.
The first two are sort of set (WF and True Believer).
6: Practiced Spellcaster (Pious Templar)
9: Craft Wonderous Item (CL 8)

To make Pearls of Power, you need a CL twice the level +3. So:
1st - 5
2nd - 7 (9 without access)
3rd - 9 (11)
4th - 11 (13)

There are a lot of awesome Paladin spells, having enough Pearls to get them back can be amazing. Also, the stat boost items are CL 8. So you could make a +Cha, +Str, and +Wis items for half cost (those are the only 3 stat spells Paladins have access to).

8,000 gp for +4 Cha cloak? And Vest of Resistance +1 seems to appear on every 3rd AR. Plus a Vest of Resistance +2 is CL 6 (8 without access). So yeah, a Craft Pious Templar would look silly as a level by level build, but when you imagine the extra gear you will have, it comes together and makes for one stand strong tank. Especially if you eventually get to 7th level PT: Holy Sword (by level 12, you should be able to make your own +4 Periapt of Wisdom). And if you some how get access to a PoP4, you could make one (or two) to have multiple Holy Swords a day. At PT 9 though, you would have the CL 13 to make it without access.

Unfortunately Detect Magic isn't on the Paladin spell list (I know... "wtf"), so you can't make a Scarab of Golem Bane (CL 8, must be 10th level to make it). Unless you can get 3 scrolls of Detect Magic and make the UMD check. DC is only 21 to use a CL 1 Orison. Perhaps there is a way to get Detect Magic as a spell from some class that gives full BAB. Preferably a Base Class so that you don't delay PT progression.
TWG_Prometheus
09-21-06, 09:38 AM *9th level is a good opportunity to get Combat Brute (Improved Bullrush) or Shock Trooper (Improved Sunder).

Improved Sunder is the prereq for Combat Brute and Improve Bullrush for Shock Trooper unless I'm missing some pretty major errata.

I like the basic idea of using a Paladin into Pious Templar build, but I'm not sure I'd rely so much on the Charisma aspects of the class to save me. With a Dwarf character, you're going to need a base 14 Cha to even get a bonus, and going higher is really going to cost the build ability score points you want elsewhere. (Str/Con - Dwarven Tank, right?) One could take Paladin levels solely to get the bonuses that don't rely on Charisma. You still get a +4 damage Smite Evil, Aura of Courage and Divine Health by level 3, with level 2 being an unfortunate waste. You could pick up an extra Fighter feat by going Paladin 3/Fighter 2, though. A Charisma/Divine Feat Paladin into Dwarven Tank build just seems too MADdy to me.

If the Reflex saves are a concern, you can always pick up Lightning Reflexes anyway, or just save True Believer for Fireballs.
JosephKell
09-21-06, 12:44 PM Improved Sunder is the prereq for Combat Brute and Improve Bullrush for Shock Trooper unless I'm missing some pretty major errata.Yippee for Dyslexia! Yes Improved Sunder is a prereq for Combat Brute and Improved Bullrush is the prereq for Shock Trooper.

Well with 28 points you can get Str 14, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16 before racial modifiers. It really just depends on whether you want to be able to use Divine feats. If you don't plan on taking them, then Charisma starts to become a non-issue. Especially if you plan on making a Cha Cloak later, then a 14 pre-race Charisma is probably fine.

Lay on Hands is just a nice class feature since it doesn't provoke AoO's when you use it. But again, it is just Paladin 4, if it was straight Paladin, I suppose having 3 or 4 times you level in restorable hit points is nice.

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 12 will probably serve the character better than a 14 in Str and Charisma.

Note: Pious Templar Smite is +4 to hit and PT level in damage. Also, your skills are basically: Level 1: Knowledge (Religion), level 2: +1 Knowledge (Religion). It isn't until level 3 (and 4) that you can put ranks in Diplomacy.

I suppose Str 15, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 would allow for Diplomacy and Knowledge (Religion).

Crazy idea! If you have a Favor that says something along the lines of "You may have 5 levels of spells cast for you for free after Regional Modules set in ____" does that mean you could use that favor to get say 3 Orisons/Cantrips cast (like Detect Magic)? Because that could be a way for a Paladin/PT crafter to make a Scarab of Golembane... Each 0th level is half a spell level right?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oogar 09-16-06, 03:49 PM	Building a Dwarf Tank, looking for some Input (Current builds owe some homage to a build by MWAO). Yes, there will be an XP penalty - part of the plan. The single level of EWM (Exotic Weapon Master) can be adjusted earlier in builds if Animated Shield Access is found. Version 1 Level Class Feats Fort Ref Will HP 1 Barbarian 1 WF: Dwarven War Axe 2 0 0 16 2 Ranger 1 Track 4 2 0 25 3 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Extra Rage 6 2 0 35 4 Ranger 2 Two Weapon Fighting 7 3 0 44 5 Ranger 3 Endurance 7 3 1 53 6 Deepwarden 1 True Believer 9 3 3 64 7 Deepwarden 2 10 3 4 75 8 Pious Templar 1 Mettle 12 3 6 85 9 Pious Templar 2 Improved Bullrush 13 3 7 95 10 Pious Templar 3 WS: Dwarven War Axe 13 4 7 105 11 Pious Templar 4 Shock Trooper 14 4 8 115 12 EWM 1 Imp Sunder, uncanny blow 16 4 8 125 13 Fighter 2 Combat Brute 17 4 8 135 14 Deepwarden 3 17 5 8 146 15 Deepwarden 4 Reckless Rage? 18 5 9 157 Version 2 Level Class Feats Fort Ref Will HP 1 Barbarian 1 WF: Dwarven War Axe 2 0 0 16 2 Ranger 1 Track 4 2 0 25 3 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Extra Rage 6 2 0 35 4 Ranger 2 Two Weapon Fighting 7 3 0 44 5 Ranger 3 Endurance 7 3 1 53 6 Deepwarden 1 Improved Initiative 9 3 3 64 7 Deepwarden 2 10 3 4 75 8 Occult Slayer 1 10 3 6 84 9 Occult Slayer 2 Reckless Rage 10 3 7 93 10 Occult Slayer 3 11 4 7 102 11 Occult Slayer 4 11 4 8 111 12 Occult Slayer 5 True Believer 11 4 8 120 13 Pious Templar 1 Mettle 13 4 10 130 14 EWM 1 Uncanny Blow 15 4 10 140 15 Fighter 2 Imp Bullrush + Shock Trooper? 17 4 10 150
Mommy was an Orc 09-16-06, 04:51 PM	The builds don't work - Gendwar Argrim is LN and the only one who lets you get into Pious Templar. Can't be non-lawful as only Neutral Deities can have Neutral Pious Templars, which means no raging... That's the reason I skipped over the obvious Barbarian 1 level.
JamesMaissen 09-16-06, 05:40 PM	Building a Dwarf Tank, looking for some Input (Current builds owe some homage to a build by MWAO). Yes, there will be an XP penalty - part of the plan. The single level of EWM (Exotic Weapon Master) can be adjusted earlier in builds if Animated Shield Access is found. List out your goals and what you want to look to avoid. 1. Consider for example how a pair of Monk levels will benefit you. Your dex is tanked, but depending on your CON you may soon find yourself out of armor anyway.. might as well get WIS to add to the AC as well. 2. Consider simply ditching Pious Templar (which you will have to do for Diety based reasons anyway) as it's causing too much trouble for you. The spells are nice and the weapon spec is cute... but spells and mettle are not worth cramping your stride for... tap Occult slayer for the will saves if they are dire and you have a feat to burn. 3. Consider EWM with the urgosh or spiked chain instead of Dwf War Axe and use the flurry instead of just more strength. 4. Don't focus too late in your character's career that you don't understand how long a road it is to get there. Don't get me wrong.. it's ESSENTIAL to plan. Just don't have all the payoffs at the end of the character and all the payment up front or you may find yourself just as unhappy. -James
Oogar 09-16-06, 06:08 PM	The builds don't work - Gendwar Argrim is LN and the only one who lets you get into Pious Templar. Can't be non-lawful as only Neutral Deities can have Neutral Pious Templars, which means no raging... That's the reason I skipped over the obvious Barbarian 1 level. I accept that I must have overlooked something, and you are probably right. Can you give me the location of this information though? True Believer only says that you must be one step from the God's Alignment - not the same alignment, so I thought I was correct in the requirements for this build. James - I appreciate the comments, and will consider them, but currently I am more curious about how badly I messed up on the understanding of Pious Templar =)
Mommy was an Orc 09-16-06, 06:36 PM	I accept that I must have overlooked something, and you are probably right. Can you give me the location of this information though? True Believer only says that you must be one step from the God's Alignment - not the same alignment, so I thought I was correct in the requirements for this build. Page 2 of the Deities 2.0 document - PrCs that worship specific deities are treated as being clerics/favored souls for purposes of alignment restrictions. And specifically, a cleric/favored soul may not be neutral unless its deity's alignment is also neutral and you're not allowed to go more than 1 step away from your deity's alignment on one axis. Tricky - lots of people get messed up on that - I've seen a Paladin of Kelanen once...
Oogar 09-16-06, 08:10 PM	Page 2 of the Deities 2.0 document - PrCs that worship specific deities are treated as being clerics/favored souls for purposes of alignment restrictions. And specifically, a cleric/favored soul may not be neutral unless its deity's alignment is also neutral and you're not allowed to go more than 1 step away from your deity's alignment on one axis. Tricky - lots of people get messed up on that - I've seen a Paladin of Kelanen once... So that means that a Cleric or Favored Soul of Moradin MUST be Lawful Good, Because Moradin is not Neutral on either Axis? So... really the only freedom of alignment choices fall to those gods that don't care either way about 1 ethos axis? How very, very strange. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I see the ruling as awful, but that IS the ruling.
JosephKell 09-16-06, 08:37 PM	So that means that a Cleric or Favored Soul of Moradin MUST be Lawful Good, Because Moradin is not Neutral on either Axis? So... really the only freedom of alignment choices fall to those gods that don't care either way about 1 ethos axis? How very, very strange. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I see the ruling as awful, but that IS the ruling.No. That means a Cleric/Favored Soul/Pious Templar must be LG, NG, or LN. I'm gonna use the "Priest" to represent the Clerics, Favored Souls, and Pious Templars. The rule is 1 step off on only one axis (or less). But, Neutral-Neutral Priest must worship Neutral-Neutral Deities. So since Gendwar Argrim is LN. You must be LG or LN to worship Gendwar Argrim as a Priest. You could just do Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Dwarven Defender 2/Pious Templar 4 and be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good. Example 1: Pelor is Neutral Good. Priests of Pelor must be Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good. Because a Neutral-Neutral Priest can't worship a non-Neutral-Neutral Deity. Example 2: St. Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral. Priests of St. Cuthbert can only be Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good because St. Cuthbert grants Turn Undead (not Rebuke).
Oogar 09-16-06, 08:44 PM	No. That means a Cleric/Favored Soul/Pious Templar must be LG, NG, or LN. With Moradin? It looks like "A Cleric/ Favored Soul may not be Neutral unless it's Diety is also Neutral." (from the Dieties Document) says otherwise. Unless they meant 'Neutral' to be standing in for 'Neutral-Neutral'. But it doesn't say that. Either way, I accept that my build is shot - Oh well.
JosephKell 09-16-06, 08:47 PM	With Moradin? It looks like "A Cleric/ Favored Soul may not be Neutral unless it's Diety is also Neutral." (from the Dieties Document) says otherwise. Unless they meant 'Neutral' to be standing in for 'Neutral-Neutral'. But it doesn't say that. Either way, I accept that my build is shot - Oh well.Are you trying to be difficult? When you just see "Neutral" it means they aren't Good or Evil and not Lawful or Chaotic. Basically it is "Neutral-Neutral" or "True Neutral" A Priest of Moradin (LG Diety) must be LG, LN, or NG. LG is the same as the Diety. LN is one step different on ONE axis (the GvE axis). And NG is one step different on ONE axis (the LvC axis).
Oogar 09-16-06, 08:54 PM	chuckle not trying to be difficult, sometimes I just am. I do wish they had used the term True Neutral though, that would have saved me minutes when I was looking at it. Now that I think on it, I wish it were worded that way in the cleric section of the PHB as well.
beyowulf 09-17-06, 09:39 AM	1. Consider for example how a pair of Monk levels will benefit you. Your dex is tanked, but depending on your CON you may soon find yourself out of armor anyway.. might as well get WIS to add to the AC as well. You have to Lawful to become a Monk. That means if you're going to take Monk levels, you need to take them before Barbarian levels, as a Barbarian who becomes Lawful can no longer rage.
Cynric 09-17-06, 07:00 PM	I have something similar at level 5. Barbarian 2 Fighter 3, Going to take 1 level of Occult slayer, but apart from that it is going to be fighter ao barbarian till retiremant. Already have dodge, mobilty, Power attack and Weapon focus (waraxe). Planning on Improved toughness, elusive target, titan fighting at least. That way I should have lots of hit points and a decent AC, only problem is will saves.
clik_ml 09-18-06, 08:39 AM	For a dwarf hp-monster type tank, going 15 Barbarian isn't a horrible option. 14/14/18/8/14/6 bumps to con Feats 1)PowAtk 3)ImpToughness 6)RecklessRage You'll be packing at least 95HP at level 6 when raging, and at least 305HP at level 15 (and you will rage all day every day of course) One could also sub in a level of EWMaster to either add double strength to a waraxe or flurry with a spiked chain of course. Alternate Dwarven Tank if you still like the Pious Templar... as a plus, it works with the Dwarven Waraxe deity (Gendwar Argrim) too. It's a build I was pondering for a very old suel human worshiper of Lendor(greatsword), but minor tweaking can make it dwarf-friendly. 5 Pal/10 Pious Templar 14/8/16/8/14/14 bumps to cha 1)WFocus 3)TrueBeliever 6)DivineMight 8)WSpec 9)PowAtk 9)ExtraTurning 12)Leadership(mostly for help forming tables at high APL, since that's often a burden) 13)ImpTough 15)DivineVigor Notion being smite/divine might/divine sacrifice, for loads of damage. 3 smites by level 6 is kind of nice. A non-cha based version of the build might go: 7 Cleric (Gendwar Argrim)/8 PiousTemplar 14/14/18/8/14/6 bumps to con or wis 1)WFocus 1)PowAtk 3)TrueBeliever 6)CraftWonder 9)PracticedSpellcaster(cleric, for item crafting) 10)WSpec 11,12,15,15) Options: ImpTough, ExtraSmite, CraftArms, ImpBullRush+ShockTrooper, GreaterResiliency,ImpInit(since by this point you may be sick of cleric speed jokes) One could fiddle with the stats to swap con and wis for 16/16 instead of 18/14, then put a couple bumps to wisdom in order to get three 4th level spells per day. It's sad missing out on Righteous Wrath of the Faithful tho. My bard will be using that spell with limited wishes some day and still thinking it a bargain. My favorite thing about all of the builds above are that they have respectable HP and will saves... damage output isn't bad either.
Gelth 09-18-06, 12:26 PM	I have a Dwarf Tank, currently Fighter 10 and climbing. You could do worse. The extra 1 hitpoint/level for Barbarian gets less relevant with a high Con, it's a smaller percent of your hitpoints. Lawful fits dwarves much, much better than nonlawful, and particularly barbarian, thematically. Fighter gets you tower shield access for that extra AC. My current feat list is as follows (not in the order I took them): Combat Expertise Dodge Mobility Power Attack Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe) Elusive Traget Heavy Armor Optimization Greater Heavy Armor Optimization Titan Fighting This gets me to a starting AC of 30, and it just goes up (say, any time I can dodge, or use mobility, or expertise....). I also have lots of hitpoints and can hit reasonably hard. Best of all, nothing the build relies on is anything other than Core access. --Penn, Ket Triad
chesspiece 09-18-06, 12:27 PM	5 Pal/10 Pious Templar 14/8/16/8/14/14 bumps to cha 1)WFocus 3)TrueBeliever 6)DivineMight 8)WSpec 9)PowAtk 9)ExtraTurning Those are some fine dwarf builds! One correction though - I believe that Power Attack is a prereq for Divine Might. You could do it this way: 6)ExtraTurning 8)WSpec 9)PowAtk 9)DivineMight It's a long time to wait for Power Attack though. That could be remedied with a Ftr level, but you'd lose 1 smite & your mount or else delay PT.
clik_ml 09-18-06, 05:30 PM	One correction though - I believe that Power Attack is a prereq for Divine Might. You could do it this way: ... It's a long time to wait for Power Attack though. That could be remedied with a Ftr level, but you'd lose 1 smite & your mount or else delay PT. Whoops, sorry bout the error. The human version took PowAtk at level 1 and didn't have any fuss. I concur on the long wait being much to bear. I might just sub in Divine Vigor early and bump extra turning back to 15th level. Oh well. Who would have thought that losing 1 feat would be such a bother? Thanks for the heads-up.
JosephKell 09-19-06, 03:53 PM	Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 10 also works. Sure you don't get a special mount, but unless you are gonna keep your mount progression going, it turns into a summonable that just dies for you (which isn't very paladin-like and also requires you to wait 4 TU before you can use it again). 1 Pal 1: Smite Evil 1/day, Detect Evil, Weapon Focus (Waraxe) 2 Pal 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands 3 Pal 3: True Believer, Aura of Courage, Divine Health 4 Pal 4: Turn Undead 5 Pal 4/Ftr 1: Power Attack 6 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 1: Mettle, Divine Might 7 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 2: Smite 1/day 8 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Waraxe) 9 Pal 4/Ftr 1/PT 4: Bonus Feat, Feat 9th level is a good opportunity to get Combat Brute (Improved Bullrush) or Shock Trooper (Improved Sunder). Or you could take Divine Vigor (+10 ft speed and +2 Temp hp per HD for 1 min per Cha modifier, standard action to start uses 1 Turn attempt) and Improved Initiative (take levels of Occult Slayer). Or Divine Vigor and Extra Turning. Also, Exotic Weapon Master has only 3 extra skill investments for a Pious Templar of Gendwar Argrim (Craft - Weaponsmithing). It could make your 2H style with the Waraxe a lot more devastating. In fact, you could take EWM as your 9th level, pick up Improved Initiative, then your 10th level as Occult Slayer. Divine Grace is gonna be very important because your Reflex save is gonna be a joke (better than most Muts though). But hey, Dwarves get +2 vs spells and spell-like abilities... so Dodging Fireballs as a Dwarf Paladin can't be that hard. Alternatively, you get feats (asterisked ones are Fighter list) at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 9th, 9th*. The first two are sort of set (WF and True Believer). 6: Practiced Spellcaster (Pious Templar) 9: Craft Wonderous Item (CL 8) To make Pearls of Power, you need a CL twice the level +3. So: 1st - 5 2nd - 7 (9 without access) 3rd - 9 (11) 4th - 11 (13) There are a lot of awesome Paladin spells, having enough Pearls to get them back can be amazing. Also, the stat boost items are CL 8. So you could make a +Cha, +Str, and +Wis items for half cost (those are the only 3 stat spells Paladins have access to). 8,000 gp for +4 Cha cloak? And Vest of Resistance +1 seems to appear on every 3rd AR. Plus a Vest of Resistance +2 is CL 6 (8 without access). So yeah, a Craft Pious Templar would look silly as a level by level build, but when you imagine the extra gear you will have, it comes together and makes for one stand strong tank. Especially if you eventually get to 7th level PT: Holy Sword (by level 12, you should be able to make your own +4 Periapt of Wisdom). And if you some how get access to a PoP4, you could make one (or two) to have multiple Holy Swords a day. At PT 9 though, you would have the CL 13 to make it without access. Unfortunately Detect Magic isn't on the Paladin spell list (I know... "wtf"), so you can't make a Scarab of Golem Bane (CL 8, must be 10th level to make it). Unless you can get 3 scrolls of Detect Magic and make the UMD check. DC is only 21 to use a CL 1 Orison. Perhaps there is a way to get Detect Magic as a spell from some class that gives full BAB. Preferably a Base Class so that you don't delay PT progression.
TWG_Prometheus 09-21-06, 09:38 AM	*9th level is a good opportunity to get Combat Brute (Improved Bullrush) or Shock Trooper (Improved Sunder). Improved Sunder is the prereq for Combat Brute and Improve Bullrush for Shock Trooper unless I'm missing some pretty major errata. I like the basic idea of using a Paladin into Pious Templar build, but I'm not sure I'd rely so much on the Charisma aspects of the class to save me. With a Dwarf character, you're going to need a base 14 Cha to even get a bonus, and going higher is really going to cost the build ability score points you want elsewhere. (Str/Con - Dwarven Tank, right?) One could take Paladin levels solely to get the bonuses that don't rely on Charisma. You still get a +4 damage Smite Evil, Aura of Courage and Divine Health by level 3, with level 2 being an unfortunate waste. You could pick up an extra Fighter feat by going Paladin 3/Fighter 2, though. A Charisma/Divine Feat Paladin into Dwarven Tank build just seems too MADdy to me. If the Reflex saves are a concern, you can always pick up Lightning Reflexes anyway, or just save True Believer for Fireballs.
JosephKell 09-21-06, 12:44 PM	Improved Sunder is the prereq for Combat Brute and Improve Bullrush for Shock Trooper unless I'm missing some pretty major errata.Yippee for Dyslexia! Yes Improved Sunder is a prereq for Combat Brute and Improved Bullrush is the prereq for Shock Trooper. Well with 28 points you can get Str 14, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16 before racial modifiers. It really just depends on whether you want to be able to use Divine feats. If you don't plan on taking them, then Charisma starts to become a non-issue. Especially if you plan on making a Cha Cloak later, then a 14 pre-race Charisma is probably fine. Lay on Hands is just a nice class feature since it doesn't provoke AoO's when you use it. But again, it is just Paladin 4, if it was straight Paladin, I suppose having 3 or 4 times you level in restorable hit points is nice. Str 16, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 12 will probably serve the character better than a 14 in Str and Charisma. Note: Pious Templar Smite is +4 to hit and PT level in damage. Also, your skills are basically: Level 1: Knowledge (Religion), level 2: +1 Knowledge (Religion). It isn't until level 3 (and 4) that you can put ranks in Diplomacy. I suppose Str 15, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 would allow for Diplomacy and Knowledge (Religion). Crazy idea! If you have a Favor that says something along the lines of "You may have 5 levels of spells cast for you for free after Regional Modules set in ____" does that mean you could use that favor to get say 3 Orisons/Cantrips cast (like Detect Magic)? Because that could be a way for a Paladin/PT crafter to make a Scarab of Golembane... Each 0th level is half a spell level right?