dwarven beastmaster/bear warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

dwarven beastmaster/bear warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clannagh
12-22-06, 12:25 AM I have been fiddling about with the concept of a dwarven build that uses bear warrior and also takes a bear companion

These are the two build variants of levels 1 to 10

Seems variant #1 has better base attack and saves variant #2 has level 2 druid spells .... any other comments ???

1. Ranger (skill focus handle animal)
2. Barbarian
3. Ranger (extra rage)
4. Ranger (free endurance)
5. Ranger
6. beastmaster (power attack)
7 deep warden
8. deepwarden
9, bear warrior (feat ??)
10. war shaper

1. Druid (skill focus handle animal)
2. Barbarian
3. Fighter (extra rage) (endurance)
4. Druid
5. Druid
6. beastmaster (power attack)
7 deepwarden
8. deepwarden
9, bear warrior (feat ??)
10. war shaper
Akhamshyy
12-22-06, 12:44 AM Druid spells are nice but when you're running around as a bear you're not going to be able to cast any. You might want to go with the ranger build, not the least of which are the reasons you outlined. You won't miss the one or two spells a day.
Sieylianna
12-22-06, 10:53 AM I'd seriously consider taking barbarian at 1st level for the extra hit points (particularly for the druid build where you won't lose skill points).

The druid levels could be helpful if you wanted to take an item creation feat (would probably required practiced spellcaster too).

Ed
Alpha_Nerd
12-22-06, 11:07 AM I like the idea, but it's hard to be able to balance out making yourself a good combatant and keeping your animal up to par. The only real way for this build to work would to cut deepwarden. With Wild armor and tower shield your AC is going to be huge enough so you don't need Con to AC. I'd go like Druid 4/Barbarian 1/Beast Master 5/ Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 4. With Natural Bond that gives you a 15th level animal companion or a 12th level without, which you can play the guy up to 11th level before getting access increasing your chances. Your feat choice would look something like

1: Skill Focus: Handle Animal
3: Extra Rage
6: Power Attack
9: Weapon Focus: Claw
12: Natural Bond if Access, if not Improved Critical: Claw
15: Something
clannagh
12-23-06, 10:09 PM I like the idea, but it's hard to be able to balance out making yourself a good combatant and keeping your animal up to par. The only real way for this build to work would to cut deepwarden. With Wild armor and tower shield your AC is going to be huge enough so you don't need Con to AC. I'd go like Druid 4/Barbarian 1/Beast Master 5/ Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 4. With Natural Bond that gives you a 15th level animal companion or a 12th level without, which you can play the guy up to 11th level before getting access increasing your chances. Your feat choice would look something like

1: Skill Focus: Handle Animal
3: Extra Rage
6: Power Attack
9: Weapon Focus: Claw
12: Natural Bond if Access, if not Improved Critical: Claw
15: Something

Assuming access to wild armor. Our local level 8/9 druid has only seen it once and that was in a game she had to play with a lower level non-druid partner. natural bond also seems exceeding rare.

Nevertheless dropping deep warden also eliminates teh need for deep warden and the investment of a lot of skills in things like dungeneering .. it may be a good plan.
Sieylianna
12-24-06, 12:33 PM Assuming access to wild armor. Our local level 8/9 druid has only seen it once and that was in a game she had to play with a lower level non-druid partner. natural bond also seems exceeding rare.

My 12th level druid saw wild armor offered once on an AR at APL 12, but she was 10th level then and it was an APL 10 table.

None of my PCs has seen natural bond and that was the only wild armor access.

Ed
clannagh
12-24-06, 06:23 PM My 12th level druid saw wild armor offered once on an AR at APL 12, but she was 10th level then and it was an APL 10 table.

None of my PCs has seen natural bond and that was the only wild armor access.

Ed

Given that natural bond (unlike beastmaster) cannot take the effective druid level above that of the character level (which limits any abuse of the feat) I find it odd its not core ... but you have to work with what you get :)

Despite the roleplaying funkiness of a bear as animal companian think i may forget the beastmaster till late in the build and hope that natural bond eventually pops up somewhere to get me the bear earlier .. maybe something like barbarian1/ranger4/deepwarden2/bearwarrior5/warshaper2/beastmaster1
Reska
12-25-06, 11:46 AM Given that natural bond (unlike beastmaster) cannot take the effective druid level above that of the character level (which limits any abuse of the feat) I find it odd its not core ... but you have to work with what you get :)

Not entirely.....if you apply Natural Bond the same way you'd apply Practiced Spellcaster, it would be applied in whichever manner helps you the most.

For instance: My full spec is Druid 6/Beastmaster 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 5. At Beastmaster 1, I have a Effective Druid Level of 10. If I take Natural Bond at 9th (which is Wiz 2 for me), I could have an effective druid level of 12 (Druid 6 + 2 Natural Bond (for the 2 wiz levels), + 4 Beastmaster). At 15th, my EDL would be 18.

Though, your mileage may vary on whether Natural Bond is applied in the same manner of Practiced Spellcaster.
Japangirl
12-25-06, 05:38 PM At 15th, your EDL cannot exceed 15 by use of the feat as it is worded. The Sage might disagree though, as he did on Practiced Spellcaster. However, if you take an animal companion that decreases your EDL, you can use Natural Bond to raise it back up to 15. Ie, take a -3 animal companion (ape, black bear, large viper, etc. The list is in the PHB). You lose three from that, three from wiz levels, gain three from Beastmaster and three from Natural Bond to take you back to your character level as effective druid level.

Wiz levels: -3 EDL
Companion: -3 EDL
Natural Bond: +3 EDL
Beastmaster: +3 EDL
______________
+0 EDL
Reska
12-25-06, 09:51 PM At 15th, your EDL cannot exceed 15 by use of the feat as it is worded. The Sage might disagree though, as he did on Practiced Spellcaster. However, if you take an animal companion that decreases your EDL, you can use Natural Bond to raise it back up to 15. Ie, take a -3 animal companion (ape, black bear, large viper, etc. The list is in the PHB). You lose three from that, three from wiz levels, gain three from Beastmaster and three from Natural Bond to take you back to your character level as effective druid level.

Wiz levels: -3 EDL
Companion: -3 EDL
Natural Bond: +3 EDL
Beastmaster: +3 EDL
______________
+0 EDL

Technically, you gain +4 from Beastmaster (Beastmaster level + 3).

And as I wrote it out, using the feat doesn't increase my EDL above 15. Beastmaster does that. The Natural Bond would apply prior to the Beastmaster EDL bump, pushing me to my max level, then Beastmaster would put it 4 beyond (counting in the Beastmaster level itself).

However, in my case it doesn't really matter...I have my Dire Tortoise (EDL-9), and at 15th level he'll be nastier. Provided I get that far.
Japangirl
12-26-06, 12:34 AM The thing is, the feat says it can't cause you to exceed your HD. So the way I read it, and it is subject to variation, is that if you get something that does allow you to exceed your HD, the feat stops having an effect.

Er, that sounds confusing. Lets take a druid 5/beastmaster 1, it's easier that way. At level 6 this druid has an EDL of 9. If he took Natural Bond, it has no effect. If this same druid takes a -3 companion, under your rules he's still EDL 9 (+3 Natural Bond, +4 Beastmaster, +5 druid levels, -3 companion = 9). The way I read it, as soon as you exceed your HD Natural Bond stops working, and with a -3 companion you are still only EDL 6, same as without the feat because the feat cannot cause you, alone or in combination with anything else, to exceed your HD. However, say you take a -6 companion. Then you are EDL 6 (+3 Natural Bond, +4 BM, +5 druid levels, -6 companion = 6) regardless of whose reading we use, because you only ever are your HD in EDL, never above.

I also think that's the way Practiced Spellcaster is *supposed* to work. However, because the Sage ruled the way he did on Practiced Spellcaster, your reading probably is correct for LG. In a home game, I like my rules better; I think it makes both feats significantly less broken.
TWG_Prometheus
12-26-06, 09:38 AM To me, the whole part of this that doesn't work is the part where people say that taking an advanced form of an animal companion decreases the druid's effective druid level. I don't buy it. The advanced animal companion forms use a lower effective druid level on the chat to determine their bonuses, but nothing about a druid's effective level has changed. If a level 6 character without beastmaster has a dire badger animal companion, that dire badger can be at most EDL 3. If one of those levels is beastmaster, the dire badger could be EDL 6, but only because a riding dog animal companion for the same character could be EDL 9.

I'll grant that the feat is not worded so hot, and that someone could try to make arguments the other way. A Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond isn't going to have an EDL 9 dire badger at my table, though. (Dire Badger isn't the most broken choice I'm sure, but it was one I knew was EDL-3 off the top of my head.)

The Natural Bond feat is a catch up feat, meant for Rangers or multiclass Druids that want a stronger animal companion. A pure Druid wouldn't have any use for it, in my book.
Japangirl
12-26-06, 04:24 PM To me, the whole part of this that doesn't work is the part where people say that taking an advanced form of an animal companion decreases the druid's effective druid level. I don't buy it. The advanced animal companion forms use a lower effective druid level on the chat to determine their bonuses, but nothing about a druid's effective level has changed. If a level 6 character without beastmaster has a dire badger animal companion, that dire badger can be at most EDL 3. If one of those levels is beastmaster, the dire badger could be EDL 6, but only because a riding dog animal companion for the same character could be EDL 9.

I'll grant that the feat is not worded so hot, and that someone could try to make arguments the other way. A Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond isn't going to have an EDL 9 dire badger at my table, though. (Dire Badger isn't the most broken choice I'm sure, but it was one I knew was EDL-3 off the top of my head.)

The Natural Bond feat is a catch up feat, meant for Rangers or multiclass Druids that want a stronger animal companion. A pure Druid wouldn't have any use for it, in my book.

How about a druid 5/BM 1 with a brown bear at EDL 6? You're sixth level, taking a -6 companion, for a companion's level that doesn't exceed your HD. Just saying . . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 12-22-06, 12:25 AM	I have been fiddling about with the concept of a dwarven build that uses bear warrior and also takes a bear companion These are the two build variants of levels 1 to 10 Seems variant #1 has better base attack and saves variant #2 has level 2 druid spells .... any other comments ??? 1. Ranger (skill focus handle animal) 2. Barbarian 3. Ranger (extra rage) 4. Ranger (free endurance) 5. Ranger 6. beastmaster (power attack) 7 deep warden 8. deepwarden 9, bear warrior (feat ??) 10. war shaper 1. Druid (skill focus handle animal) 2. Barbarian 3. Fighter (extra rage) (endurance) 4. Druid 5. Druid 6. beastmaster (power attack) 7 deepwarden 8. deepwarden 9, bear warrior (feat ??) 10. war shaper
Akhamshyy 12-22-06, 12:44 AM	Druid spells are nice but when you're running around as a bear you're not going to be able to cast any. You might want to go with the ranger build, not the least of which are the reasons you outlined. You won't miss the one or two spells a day.
Sieylianna 12-22-06, 10:53 AM	I'd seriously consider taking barbarian at 1st level for the extra hit points (particularly for the druid build where you won't lose skill points). The druid levels could be helpful if you wanted to take an item creation feat (would probably required practiced spellcaster too). Ed
Alpha_Nerd 12-22-06, 11:07 AM	I like the idea, but it's hard to be able to balance out making yourself a good combatant and keeping your animal up to par. The only real way for this build to work would to cut deepwarden. With Wild armor and tower shield your AC is going to be huge enough so you don't need Con to AC. I'd go like Druid 4/Barbarian 1/Beast Master 5/ Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 4. With Natural Bond that gives you a 15th level animal companion or a 12th level without, which you can play the guy up to 11th level before getting access increasing your chances. Your feat choice would look something like 1: Skill Focus: Handle Animal 3: Extra Rage 6: Power Attack 9: Weapon Focus: Claw 12: Natural Bond if Access, if not Improved Critical: Claw 15: Something
clannagh 12-23-06, 10:09 PM	I like the idea, but it's hard to be able to balance out making yourself a good combatant and keeping your animal up to par. The only real way for this build to work would to cut deepwarden. With Wild armor and tower shield your AC is going to be huge enough so you don't need Con to AC. I'd go like Druid 4/Barbarian 1/Beast Master 5/ Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 4. With Natural Bond that gives you a 15th level animal companion or a 12th level without, which you can play the guy up to 11th level before getting access increasing your chances. Your feat choice would look something like 1: Skill Focus: Handle Animal 3: Extra Rage 6: Power Attack 9: Weapon Focus: Claw 12: Natural Bond if Access, if not Improved Critical: Claw 15: Something Assuming access to wild armor. Our local level 8/9 druid has only seen it once and that was in a game she had to play with a lower level non-druid partner. natural bond also seems exceeding rare. Nevertheless dropping deep warden also eliminates teh need for deep warden and the investment of a lot of skills in things like dungeneering .. it may be a good plan.
Sieylianna 12-24-06, 12:33 PM	Assuming access to wild armor. Our local level 8/9 druid has only seen it once and that was in a game she had to play with a lower level non-druid partner. natural bond also seems exceeding rare. My 12th level druid saw wild armor offered once on an AR at APL 12, but she was 10th level then and it was an APL 10 table. None of my PCs has seen natural bond and that was the only wild armor access. Ed
clannagh 12-24-06, 06:23 PM	My 12th level druid saw wild armor offered once on an AR at APL 12, but she was 10th level then and it was an APL 10 table. None of my PCs has seen natural bond and that was the only wild armor access. Ed Given that natural bond (unlike beastmaster) cannot take the effective druid level above that of the character level (which limits any abuse of the feat) I find it odd its not core ... but you have to work with what you get :) Despite the roleplaying funkiness of a bear as animal companian think i may forget the beastmaster till late in the build and hope that natural bond eventually pops up somewhere to get me the bear earlier .. maybe something like barbarian1/ranger4/deepwarden2/bearwarrior5/warshaper2/beastmaster1
Reska 12-25-06, 11:46 AM	Given that natural bond (unlike beastmaster) cannot take the effective druid level above that of the character level (which limits any abuse of the feat) I find it odd its not core ... but you have to work with what you get :) Not entirely.....if you apply Natural Bond the same way you'd apply Practiced Spellcaster, it would be applied in whichever manner helps you the most. For instance: My full spec is Druid 6/Beastmaster 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 5. At Beastmaster 1, I have a Effective Druid Level of 10. If I take Natural Bond at 9th (which is Wiz 2 for me), I could have an effective druid level of 12 (Druid 6 + 2 Natural Bond (for the 2 wiz levels), + 4 Beastmaster). At 15th, my EDL would be 18. Though, your mileage may vary on whether Natural Bond is applied in the same manner of Practiced Spellcaster.
Japangirl 12-25-06, 05:38 PM	At 15th, your EDL cannot exceed 15 by use of the feat as it is worded. The Sage might disagree though, as he did on Practiced Spellcaster. However, if you take an animal companion that decreases your EDL, you can use Natural Bond to raise it back up to 15. Ie, take a -3 animal companion (ape, black bear, large viper, etc. The list is in the PHB). You lose three from that, three from wiz levels, gain three from Beastmaster and three from Natural Bond to take you back to your character level as effective druid level. Wiz levels: -3 EDL Companion: -3 EDL Natural Bond: +3 EDL Beastmaster: +3 EDL ______________ +0 EDL
Reska 12-25-06, 09:51 PM	At 15th, your EDL cannot exceed 15 by use of the feat as it is worded. The Sage might disagree though, as he did on Practiced Spellcaster. However, if you take an animal companion that decreases your EDL, you can use Natural Bond to raise it back up to 15. Ie, take a -3 animal companion (ape, black bear, large viper, etc. The list is in the PHB). You lose three from that, three from wiz levels, gain three from Beastmaster and three from Natural Bond to take you back to your character level as effective druid level. Wiz levels: -3 EDL Companion: -3 EDL Natural Bond: +3 EDL Beastmaster: +3 EDL ______________ +0 EDL Technically, you gain +4 from Beastmaster (Beastmaster level + 3). And as I wrote it out, using the feat doesn't increase my EDL above 15. Beastmaster does that. The Natural Bond would apply prior to the Beastmaster EDL bump, pushing me to my max level, then Beastmaster would put it 4 beyond (counting in the Beastmaster level itself). However, in my case it doesn't really matter...I have my Dire Tortoise (EDL-9), and at 15th level he'll be nastier. Provided I get that far.
Japangirl 12-26-06, 12:34 AM	The thing is, the feat says it can't cause you to exceed your HD. So the way I read it, and it is subject to variation, is that if you get something that does allow you to exceed your HD, the feat stops having an effect. Er, that sounds confusing. Lets take a druid 5/beastmaster 1, it's easier that way. At level 6 this druid has an EDL of 9. If he took Natural Bond, it has no effect. If this same druid takes a -3 companion, under your rules he's still EDL 9 (+3 Natural Bond, +4 Beastmaster, +5 druid levels, -3 companion = 9). The way I read it, as soon as you exceed your HD Natural Bond stops working, and with a -3 companion you are still only EDL 6, same as without the feat because the feat cannot cause you, alone or in combination with anything else, to exceed your HD. However, say you take a -6 companion. Then you are EDL 6 (+3 Natural Bond, +4 BM, +5 druid levels, -6 companion = 6) regardless of whose reading we use, because you only ever are your HD in EDL, never above. I also think that's the way Practiced Spellcaster is supposed to work. However, because the Sage ruled the way he did on Practiced Spellcaster, your reading probably is correct for LG. In a home game, I like my rules better; I think it makes both feats significantly less broken.
TWG_Prometheus 12-26-06, 09:38 AM	To me, the whole part of this that doesn't work is the part where people say that taking an advanced form of an animal companion decreases the druid's effective druid level. I don't buy it. The advanced animal companion forms use a lower effective druid level on the chat to determine their bonuses, but nothing about a druid's effective level has changed. If a level 6 character without beastmaster has a dire badger animal companion, that dire badger can be at most EDL 3. If one of those levels is beastmaster, the dire badger could be EDL 6, but only because a riding dog animal companion for the same character could be EDL 9. I'll grant that the feat is not worded so hot, and that someone could try to make arguments the other way. A Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond isn't going to have an EDL 9 dire badger at my table, though. (Dire Badger isn't the most broken choice I'm sure, but it was one I knew was EDL-3 off the top of my head.) The Natural Bond feat is a catch up feat, meant for Rangers or multiclass Druids that want a stronger animal companion. A pure Druid wouldn't have any use for it, in my book.
Japangirl 12-26-06, 04:24 PM	To me, the whole part of this that doesn't work is the part where people say that taking an advanced form of an animal companion decreases the druid's effective druid level. I don't buy it. The advanced animal companion forms use a lower effective druid level on the chat to determine their bonuses, but nothing about a druid's effective level has changed. If a level 6 character without beastmaster has a dire badger animal companion, that dire badger can be at most EDL 3. If one of those levels is beastmaster, the dire badger could be EDL 6, but only because a riding dog animal companion for the same character could be EDL 9. I'll grant that the feat is not worded so hot, and that someone could try to make arguments the other way. A Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond isn't going to have an EDL 9 dire badger at my table, though. (Dire Badger isn't the most broken choice I'm sure, but it was one I knew was EDL-3 off the top of my head.) The Natural Bond feat is a catch up feat, meant for Rangers or multiclass Druids that want a stronger animal companion. A pure Druid wouldn't have any use for it, in my book. How about a druid 5/BM 1 with a brown bear at EDL 6? You're sixth level, taking a -6 companion, for a companion's level that doesn't exceed your HD. Just saying . . .