Dwarven defender [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dwarven defender [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
06-18-07, 11:18 PM i want to build a dwarven defender for ruins and i want a stupid high AC and touch AC thats decent so here my build any tips?

dwarf

Str 16
dex 12
con 18
int 8
wis 10
cha 8 (for the +1 knights challange although i can oly use it 4 times)

Knight 1 : dodge
Fighter 1 : combat expertise
Fighter 2 : toughness and sheild spec
Knight 2 : (the sheild ablity)
hexblade 1 :
hexblade 2 : endurance (for the pre req)
hexblade 3 :
Dwarven defender 1:
Dwarven defender 2: improved combat expertise
Dwarven defender 3:
Dwarven defender 4:
Dwarven defender 5: improved toughness
Dwarven defender 6:
Dwarven defender 7:
Dwarven defender 8: improved resiliance

i tryed to calculate AC and kept being unable to calculate the + bonuses

another idea is pious templar for the mettle and smite (mettle at high APLS is important)
dkay807
06-19-07, 07:50 AM First of all, you need a 13 dex for dodge. I'd recommend a 14 and then try to get your hands on Mithral Fullplate and buy Gloves of Dex +2.

Second of all, I don't see the purpose of the Hexblade levels. Why not just go Knight 3/Fighter 4? That way, opponents won't be 5-foot stepping away from you. You could also go Knight 6/Fighter 1 if you want some of the other Knight abilities. I'm personally a big fan of Melee Weapon Mastery, so I'd recommend the 4 Fighter levels.

Third of all, 18 Con is cool but you don't really need it. You could drop it to a 17 and raise your dex to a 14... this way, you'll still be able to bump it at 12th level after you've bumped your strength up to 18 at 8th. Also, I'd advise more than an 8 int. 1 skill per level is really rough... you can't even cross-class one skill you really like!
Gwumph
06-19-07, 09:01 AM second point: You need Int 13 to get combat expertise.

Third point: feats are the best way for a high AC so take more levels of Figher
thorinXXX
06-19-07, 04:27 PM You could also go with ranger 3 fighter 4 deepwarden 2 dwarven defender 6.
Drop your Ch to 6 and increase Int to 10. You need the skills.
1 Rng 1 Toughness (Track)-you get the most mileage out of Toughness at 1st
2 Ftr 1 Power Attack
3 Ftr 2 Weap Focus (whatever), Quickdraw
4 Rng 2 +1 Dx (TWF)
5 Rng 3 (Endurance)
6 DW 1 Dodge
7 DW 2
8 DD 1 +1 St
9 DD 2 Improved Toughness
10 DD 3
11 Ftr 3
12 Ftr 4 Weapon spec, Melee Weapon Mastery +1 St
13 DD 4
14 DD 5
15 DD 6

At 7th level you use you Con bonus in place of your DX bonus. This should give you a respectable touch AC. It only gets better when you enter your defensive stance. At that point you should be relying on your local arcanit for mage armor of some sort to take full advantage of your obnoxious Con bonus.:D
Quickdraw is because you will need a reach weapon when you enter a defensive stance, and will often need to switch weapons.

Another option is to put a level of EWM in some place for uncanny blow. You would have to give up a shield to make the most of that.
TWG_Prometheus
06-19-07, 04:34 PM Deepwarden really wouldn't help here. As per the D&D FAQ, Deepwarden can only give an AC Bonus from Con (instead of Dexterity) up to your armor's maximum Dex bonus anyway.

Technically, you could dump use Deepwarden to allow you to dump Dexterity for other stats, but I wouldn't want my frontliner starting with a -1 Initiative and a penalty to their Reflex save.

Edit: I see now that you're suggesting the use of Mage Armor to allow the Deepwarden Con bonus to act fully, but even with 6 AC from Greater Mage Armor. You'd need an extremely high Con score to actually pull that off, but it's doable.

The wisdom of designing a build around the presence and willingness of a Wizard to provide Greater Mage Armor for a Dwarven Defender's basic defenses is another matter.
thorinXXX
06-19-07, 04:59 PM Another option for armor is Gnome twistcloth. (for true obnoxiousness you could put spikes on it:D )

As far as relying on an arcanist for mage armor at 7th level, I don't see much problem. If your region is low on arcanists it might be an issue, but it is a problem that I have rarely seen. Get a PoP1 and the problem is almost completely non-existant.

Your init is +1, not -1. You need a 13 dex for Dodge for Dwarven Defender. If you are really worried about it take Improved Initiative in place of some other feat.
TWG_Prometheus
06-19-07, 05:11 PM Another option for armor is Gnome twistcloth. (for true obnoxiousness you could put spikes on it:D )

As far as relying on an arcanist for mage armor at 7th level, I don't see much problem. If your region is low on arcanists it might be an issue, but it is a problem that I have rarely seen. Get a PoP1 and the problem is almost completely non-existant.

Your init is +1, not -1. You need a 13 dex for Dodge for Dwarven Defender. If you are really worried about it take Improved Initiative in place of some other feat.

But then how much are you gaining out of Dwarven Defender, really?

In order for a PoP 1 Mage Armor + Deepwarden Con to come up to the level of +1 Mithril Fullplate + Dex, you need a Con of 26. (8 Mithril Fullplate + 3 Dexterity + 1 enhancement = 12 AC - 4 Mage Armor = 8 Con modifier) That's not out of the question for Dwarves, but it's a long way to go just to make a trick work. You're probably putting a starting 20 into Con for that, which means with the 13 Dex required you'll have a low Strength. Getting Deepwarden 2 by level 7 also pushes Dwarven Defender back a level, slowing your AC progression from the class.

Also note that passing a PoP to your buddy still assumes that your arcanist for the module is a Wizard, not just an arcanist. Sorcerers might have enough spells to provide the armor for you, but they may not even have the spell as a spell known.

There's probably a decent build in the works somewhere that can use Deepwarden to boost their armor class, but I think it's an overrated option given the D&D FAQ. I'd prefer to see a build that uses a smart selection of armor and feats to boost the armor class up. With Shield Ward in play, there are significant benefits to that path.
DuctShuiTengu
06-19-07, 05:52 PM First of all, you need a 13 dex for dodge. I'd recommend a 14 and then try to get your hands on Mithral Fullplate and buy Gloves of Dex +2.

Another option, if you can get the access would be to go Mithral Heavy Plate instead (found in RoS). Its Armor Check penalty is 2 worse, and its dex bonus (when Mithral) is +2, but it's armor bonus is one better (and it leaves you with money and a glove slot free compared to the full plate + gloves of dex option)
thorinXXX
06-20-07, 05:48 PM But then how much are you gaining out of Dwarven Defender, really?

In order for a PoP 1 Mage Armor + Deepwarden Con to come up to the level of +1 Mithril Fullplate + Dex, you need a Con of 26. (8 Mithril Fullplate + 3 Dexterity + 1 enhancement = 12 AC - 4 Mage Armor = 8 Con modifier) That's not out of the question for Dwarves, but it's a long way to go just to make a trick work. You're probably putting a starting 20 into Con for that, which means with the 13 Dex required you'll have a low Strength. Getting Deepwarden 2 by level 7 also pushes Dwarven Defender back a level, slowing your AC progression from the class.

Also note that passing a PoP to your buddy still assumes that your arcanist for the module is a Wizard, not just an arcanist. Sorcerers might have enough spells to provide the armor for you, but they may not even have the spell as a spell known.

There's probably a decent build in the works somewhere that can use Deepwarden to boost their armor class, but I think it's an overrated option given the D&D FAQ. I'd prefer to see a build that uses a smart selection of armor and feats to boost the armor class up. With Shield Ward in play, there are significant benefits to that path.

Well, frst you have 11500 GP more to spend on other stuff, and you do not have to wait for access. And honestly, how often have you adventured without someone in the party able to cast one of the mage armors at APL 6+?

With a starting 18 Con, and a +4 Ammy you have a +6 AC bonus from Con, and a +8 when in defensive stance. This is all touch, which is what the OP asked for.

Now if we go with the twist cloth we can get +3 twist cloth, which is +4 to AC and no armor check penalty for under 10K. If the character can shake loose a feat for it, all of that is touch AC as well.
TWG_Prometheus
06-20-07, 05:59 PM The OP didn't ask for all Touch AC...just a decent Touch AC which one could obtain through Shield Ward.

As far as how often you go through adventures without a Mage Armor caster? Too often if you're depending on them for your defensive viability as a tank. Depending on Defensive Stance for your Armor Class to meet the goals isn't a good path to go either. It's rare that you can count on being able to stick in one spot for an extended amount of time, and rarer still that some big huge grapple monster won't move you out of your stance.

Deepwarden isn't bad, but I'm not seeing nearly enough advantage to it to justify dropping a Dwarven Defender level.
jstorrie
06-21-07, 01:01 AM Deepwarden isn't going to be needed, though, is it? You already want Dex 14 because you need Dodge, so there's really no point in picking it up. You can already hit the max Dex for the best armor you can wear.
Gwumph
06-21-07, 03:23 AM Here’s a super high AC Dwarven character. By level 13, spending 10k on magical defense, fighting defensively, going total combat expertise you can achieve AC 50, touch 39, flat-footed 50.

Goes like this:
Str:14, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 13, Wis: 14, Char: 9

Level 1: Ranger 1: Endurance
Level 2: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
Level 3: Fighter 2: Shield Specialization/Shield Ward
Level 4: Fighter 3: + Con
Level 5: Fighter 4: Heavy Armor Special
Level 6: DeepWarden 1: Intimidating strike
Level 7: DeepWarden 2: Stone Warden
Level 8: Stonelord 1: + Con (18)
Level 9: Stonelord 2: Stone power-Earth Endurance (+4 Con 1 hour) (22)/ Improved Combat Expert
Level 10: DeepWarden 3:
Level 11: DeepWarden 4: Uncanny Dodge
Level 12: Fighter 5: Steadfast determination
Level 13: Fighter 6: Greater Armor Special

I have bought you a +2 magical armour (4k) a +2 tower shield (4k) and ring +1 (2k), I also figured you would be using Heavy plate, but armour is changeable.

Your saves would be (+2 vest resist): Fort +23, Reflex +7 Will +15

Your thoughts?
Ira_Dei
06-21-07, 06:30 AM Base 10 + Heavy plate 11 + Max Dex/ Con 2 (If armour is Mithral) + tower shield 7 (with shield spec) + Ring 1 is AC 30. If your Heavy armour specializations are actually Optimizations, that add +2. Max combat expertise of +13 makes AC45, and fighting defensively makes that AC47. Touch AC will be around 36, and Flat footed means no fighting defensively and no use of combat expertise, so flat footed AC will be 10 + Armour (11) + Shield (7) + Ring (1) or 28. So AC47/ T36/ FF28, quite a bit less than 50/ 39/ 50 Gwumph. If I'm wrong, or have been stupid, please tell me how so I'll be able to build a better AC next time.
Gwumph
06-21-07, 07:17 AM I give you on the Flat-footed, my mistake there.

Add +1 for fighting defensive (5 ranks tumble) = AC 48

Next part is where it gets tricky.....

The Stonewarden ability specifically mentions it applying when you would lose your dex bonus as being flat-footed. But it does not mention being limited by max dex bonus on Armour.

Now when I built this I used hero-forge and it added Con AC with no regard to armour. So that's a point for discussion, and I am sure some people will oppose. but following the RAW
the armour goes as this.

+13 armour(heavy plate +armour opt +greater armor opt+2mag
+7 shield (tower shield + shield spec + 2 magic)
+6 Con (start 16 + 2 for levels +4 bears endurance/earths end
+1 ring
+13 combat expertise
+3 fight defensive

+53 AC Total (in surpise round it's quite abit lower, But I
was going for max AC)

Now that I did a proper add up I see I was low by 3 points:D
Banor
06-21-07, 07:53 AM the FAQ state that the max dex bonus from armor is applied to deepwarder CON to armor

(or is it the LGCS ?)
Gwumph
06-21-07, 10:02 AM What page Banor?
Ira_Dei
06-21-07, 10:36 AM Gwumph,

when it works, it works. Although I haven't checked the rules myself, local triad/ GM's would be of the opinion that CON bonus is limited by armour. Otherwise, it's great to hide behind, but the attack roll is +2 modded by equipment, -4 for fighting defensively. So 20's needed to hit and doing no damage. What does intimidating strike do?

I'm currently on a fighter with AC32 at 11th level, and for what it's worth, I'd love to smile at the GM and tell them my AC was 53. :evillaugh
GorTeX
06-21-07, 10:41 AM page 11 of the LGCS: Under the 'Class Clarifications' section.

Deepwarden: Stone Warden is limited by the maximum
Dexterity bonus to AC for the type of armor worn
Gwumph
06-21-07, 12:20 PM Intimidating Strike allows you to deduct BAB and add it to your Intimidate skill.

If you hit the monster, you get to make an intimidate roll, if you succeed the monster is shaken for the entire encounter. Which mean -2 to attack rolls, or +2 armor :D

LOL thinking about it's totally do-able. You can even drop the Stonelord level for something else. And drop a couple of con points. you should be able to AC 45+

+12 Armor (mithiral full plate + heavy op + great heavy op
+2 magical)
+ 7 shield (tower shield + shield special + 2 magical)
+ 3 Con (16 easy to get)
+ 1 ring
+13 combat expertise
+ 3 fight defensive

+49 Total: (if you hit with the intimidating strike it goes up
to 51)

So there you go totally legal AC 49 (and not really that hard to get, mithiral full plate easy/ mithiral tower shield easy/ +2 to each peice of armor easy/ +1 ring easy / 16 constitution easy

you buy a higher ring +2 or amulet natural +2 or upgrade both armors by another +1 (all less than 10k) by level 15 you should be over AC 55

Sickening isn't it:D
GorTeX
06-21-07, 12:31 PM ...
+12 Armor (mithiral full plate + heavy op + great heavy op
+2 magical)...

Expect Table Variation on the Heavy/Greater Armor optimizaion.

I stongly feel that the DMG would allow these feats to work with Mithral Full Plate.

However, WOTC has ruled (in the FAQ, Customer service, in Dragon, in sage advice, etc) that Mithral armor is one category lighter for ALL purposes--so Heavy Armor Optimizaion feats will not work on Mithral Full Plate. (bunch of BS..DMG says it's lighter for Movement and other Limitations--not for all purposes...)
Gwumph
06-21-07, 12:34 PM Sorry for the double post

but drop fighting defensive and only combat expertise for +8 and you would have a 42 AC and that would add +8 to hit (+ str and other bonuses)
Franco Un-American
06-22-07, 01:31 AM Also, you can't take Shield Specialization for a tower shield. The feat specifies choose buckler, light shield, or heavy shield. A tower shield is none of the above.
bitznarf
06-22-07, 01:40 AM Level 12: Fighter 5: Steadfast determination
Steadfast Determination is Closed.
Gwumph
06-22-07, 01:57 AM Damn! Franco you are right.....

You now I remember, you take shield specialzation. so you can take shield ward.

Shield Ward applys your shield bonus to touch AC and bullrush,disarm,grapple,overrun,and trips checks against you. Shield ward also applies to all shields, not just heavy light or buckler.

As for Steadfast determination, that was a throw out feat. You can put anything there instead.

I still says its possible to have a walk around AC +35 and when really pumping it up have a +50 AC
bitznarf
06-22-07, 10:34 AM Can you do that and still be considered enough of a threat by the bad guys that they will target you? If not, then your huge AC is going to waste.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 06-18-07, 11:18 PM	i want to build a dwarven defender for ruins and i want a stupid high AC and touch AC thats decent so here my build any tips? dwarf Str 16 dex 12 con 18 int 8 wis 10 cha 8 (for the +1 knights challange although i can oly use it 4 times) Knight 1 : dodge Fighter 1 : combat expertise Fighter 2 : toughness and sheild spec Knight 2 : (the sheild ablity) hexblade 1 : hexblade 2 : endurance (for the pre req) hexblade 3 : Dwarven defender 1: Dwarven defender 2: improved combat expertise Dwarven defender 3: Dwarven defender 4: Dwarven defender 5: improved toughness Dwarven defender 6: Dwarven defender 7: Dwarven defender 8: improved resiliance i tryed to calculate AC and kept being unable to calculate the + bonuses another idea is pious templar for the mettle and smite (mettle at high APLS is important)
dkay807 06-19-07, 07:50 AM	First of all, you need a 13 dex for dodge. I'd recommend a 14 and then try to get your hands on Mithral Fullplate and buy Gloves of Dex +2. Second of all, I don't see the purpose of the Hexblade levels. Why not just go Knight 3/Fighter 4? That way, opponents won't be 5-foot stepping away from you. You could also go Knight 6/Fighter 1 if you want some of the other Knight abilities. I'm personally a big fan of Melee Weapon Mastery, so I'd recommend the 4 Fighter levels. Third of all, 18 Con is cool but you don't really need it. You could drop it to a 17 and raise your dex to a 14... this way, you'll still be able to bump it at 12th level after you've bumped your strength up to 18 at 8th. Also, I'd advise more than an 8 int. 1 skill per level is really rough... you can't even cross-class one skill you really like!
Gwumph 06-19-07, 09:01 AM	second point: You need Int 13 to get combat expertise. Third point: feats are the best way for a high AC so take more levels of Figher
thorinXXX 06-19-07, 04:27 PM	You could also go with ranger 3 fighter 4 deepwarden 2 dwarven defender 6. Drop your Ch to 6 and increase Int to 10. You need the skills. 1 Rng 1 Toughness (Track)-you get the most mileage out of Toughness at 1st 2 Ftr 1 Power Attack 3 Ftr 2 Weap Focus (whatever), Quickdraw 4 Rng 2 +1 Dx (TWF) 5 Rng 3 (Endurance) 6 DW 1 Dodge 7 DW 2 8 DD 1 +1 St 9 DD 2 Improved Toughness 10 DD 3 11 Ftr 3 12 Ftr 4 Weapon spec, Melee Weapon Mastery +1 St 13 DD 4 14 DD 5 15 DD 6 At 7th level you use you Con bonus in place of your DX bonus. This should give you a respectable touch AC. It only gets better when you enter your defensive stance. At that point you should be relying on your local arcanit for mage armor of some sort to take full advantage of your obnoxious Con bonus.:D Quickdraw is because you will need a reach weapon when you enter a defensive stance, and will often need to switch weapons. Another option is to put a level of EWM in some place for uncanny blow. You would have to give up a shield to make the most of that.
TWG_Prometheus 06-19-07, 04:34 PM	Deepwarden really wouldn't help here. As per the D&D FAQ, Deepwarden can only give an AC Bonus from Con (instead of Dexterity) up to your armor's maximum Dex bonus anyway. Technically, you could dump use Deepwarden to allow you to dump Dexterity for other stats, but I wouldn't want my frontliner starting with a -1 Initiative and a penalty to their Reflex save. Edit: I see now that you're suggesting the use of Mage Armor to allow the Deepwarden Con bonus to act fully, but even with 6 AC from Greater Mage Armor. You'd need an extremely high Con score to actually pull that off, but it's doable. The wisdom of designing a build around the presence and willingness of a Wizard to provide Greater Mage Armor for a Dwarven Defender's basic defenses is another matter.
thorinXXX 06-19-07, 04:59 PM	Another option for armor is Gnome twistcloth. (for true obnoxiousness you could put spikes on it:D ) As far as relying on an arcanist for mage armor at 7th level, I don't see much problem. If your region is low on arcanists it might be an issue, but it is a problem that I have rarely seen. Get a PoP1 and the problem is almost completely non-existant. Your init is +1, not -1. You need a 13 dex for Dodge for Dwarven Defender. If you are really worried about it take Improved Initiative in place of some other feat.
TWG_Prometheus 06-19-07, 05:11 PM	Another option for armor is Gnome twistcloth. (for true obnoxiousness you could put spikes on it:D ) As far as relying on an arcanist for mage armor at 7th level, I don't see much problem. If your region is low on arcanists it might be an issue, but it is a problem that I have rarely seen. Get a PoP1 and the problem is almost completely non-existant. Your init is +1, not -1. You need a 13 dex for Dodge for Dwarven Defender. If you are really worried about it take Improved Initiative in place of some other feat. But then how much are you gaining out of Dwarven Defender, really? In order for a PoP 1 Mage Armor + Deepwarden Con to come up to the level of +1 Mithril Fullplate + Dex, you need a Con of 26. (8 Mithril Fullplate + 3 Dexterity + 1 enhancement = 12 AC - 4 Mage Armor = 8 Con modifier) That's not out of the question for Dwarves, but it's a long way to go just to make a trick work. You're probably putting a starting 20 into Con for that, which means with the 13 Dex required you'll have a low Strength. Getting Deepwarden 2 by level 7 also pushes Dwarven Defender back a level, slowing your AC progression from the class. Also note that passing a PoP to your buddy still assumes that your arcanist for the module is a Wizard, not just an arcanist. Sorcerers might have enough spells to provide the armor for you, but they may not even have the spell as a spell known. There's probably a decent build in the works somewhere that can use Deepwarden to boost their armor class, but I think it's an overrated option given the D&D FAQ. I'd prefer to see a build that uses a smart selection of armor and feats to boost the armor class up. With Shield Ward in play, there are significant benefits to that path.
DuctShuiTengu 06-19-07, 05:52 PM	First of all, you need a 13 dex for dodge. I'd recommend a 14 and then try to get your hands on Mithral Fullplate and buy Gloves of Dex +2. Another option, if you can get the access would be to go Mithral Heavy Plate instead (found in RoS). Its Armor Check penalty is 2 worse, and its dex bonus (when Mithral) is +2, but it's armor bonus is one better (and it leaves you with money and a glove slot free compared to the full plate + gloves of dex option)
thorinXXX 06-20-07, 05:48 PM	But then how much are you gaining out of Dwarven Defender, really? In order for a PoP 1 Mage Armor + Deepwarden Con to come up to the level of +1 Mithril Fullplate + Dex, you need a Con of 26. (8 Mithril Fullplate + 3 Dexterity + 1 enhancement = 12 AC - 4 Mage Armor = 8 Con modifier) That's not out of the question for Dwarves, but it's a long way to go just to make a trick work. You're probably putting a starting 20 into Con for that, which means with the 13 Dex required you'll have a low Strength. Getting Deepwarden 2 by level 7 also pushes Dwarven Defender back a level, slowing your AC progression from the class. Also note that passing a PoP to your buddy still assumes that your arcanist for the module is a Wizard, not just an arcanist. Sorcerers might have enough spells to provide the armor for you, but they may not even have the spell as a spell known. There's probably a decent build in the works somewhere that can use Deepwarden to boost their armor class, but I think it's an overrated option given the D&D FAQ. I'd prefer to see a build that uses a smart selection of armor and feats to boost the armor class up. With Shield Ward in play, there are significant benefits to that path. Well, frst you have 11500 GP more to spend on other stuff, and you do not have to wait for access. And honestly, how often have you adventured without someone in the party able to cast one of the mage armors at APL 6+? With a starting 18 Con, and a +4 Ammy you have a +6 AC bonus from Con, and a +8 when in defensive stance. This is all touch, which is what the OP asked for. Now if we go with the twist cloth we can get +3 twist cloth, which is +4 to AC and no armor check penalty for under 10K. If the character can shake loose a feat for it, all of that is touch AC as well.
TWG_Prometheus 06-20-07, 05:59 PM	The OP didn't ask for all Touch AC...just a decent Touch AC which one could obtain through Shield Ward. As far as how often you go through adventures without a Mage Armor caster? Too often if you're depending on them for your defensive viability as a tank. Depending on Defensive Stance for your Armor Class to meet the goals isn't a good path to go either. It's rare that you can count on being able to stick in one spot for an extended amount of time, and rarer still that some big huge grapple monster won't move you out of your stance. Deepwarden isn't bad, but I'm not seeing nearly enough advantage to it to justify dropping a Dwarven Defender level.
jstorrie 06-21-07, 01:01 AM	Deepwarden isn't going to be needed, though, is it? You already want Dex 14 because you need Dodge, so there's really no point in picking it up. You can already hit the max Dex for the best armor you can wear.
Gwumph 06-21-07, 03:23 AM	Here’s a super high AC Dwarven character. By level 13, spending 10k on magical defense, fighting defensively, going total combat expertise you can achieve AC 50, touch 39, flat-footed 50. Goes like this: Str:14, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 13, Wis: 14, Char: 9 Level 1: Ranger 1: Endurance Level 2: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise Level 3: Fighter 2: Shield Specialization/Shield Ward Level 4: Fighter 3: + Con Level 5: Fighter 4: Heavy Armor Special Level 6: DeepWarden 1: Intimidating strike Level 7: DeepWarden 2: Stone Warden Level 8: Stonelord 1: + Con (18) Level 9: Stonelord 2: Stone power-Earth Endurance (+4 Con 1 hour) (22)/ Improved Combat Expert Level 10: DeepWarden 3: Level 11: DeepWarden 4: Uncanny Dodge Level 12: Fighter 5: Steadfast determination Level 13: Fighter 6: Greater Armor Special I have bought you a +2 magical armour (4k) a +2 tower shield (4k) and ring +1 (2k), I also figured you would be using Heavy plate, but armour is changeable. Your saves would be (+2 vest resist): Fort +23, Reflex +7 Will +15 Your thoughts?
Ira_Dei 06-21-07, 06:30 AM	Base 10 + Heavy plate 11 + Max Dex/ Con 2 (If armour is Mithral) + tower shield 7 (with shield spec) + Ring 1 is AC 30. If your Heavy armour specializations are actually Optimizations, that add +2. Max combat expertise of +13 makes AC45, and fighting defensively makes that AC47. Touch AC will be around 36, and Flat footed means no fighting defensively and no use of combat expertise, so flat footed AC will be 10 + Armour (11) + Shield (7) + Ring (1) or 28. So AC47/ T36/ FF28, quite a bit less than 50/ 39/ 50 Gwumph. If I'm wrong, or have been stupid, please tell me how so I'll be able to build a better AC next time.
Gwumph 06-21-07, 07:17 AM	I give you on the Flat-footed, my mistake there. Add +1 for fighting defensive (5 ranks tumble) = AC 48 Next part is where it gets tricky..... The Stonewarden ability specifically mentions it applying when you would lose your dex bonus as being flat-footed. But it does not mention being limited by max dex bonus on Armour. Now when I built this I used hero-forge and it added Con AC with no regard to armour. So that's a point for discussion, and I am sure some people will oppose. but following the RAW the armour goes as this. +13 armour(heavy plate +armour opt +greater armor opt+2mag +7 shield (tower shield + shield spec + 2 magic) +6 Con (start 16 + 2 for levels +4 bears endurance/earths end +1 ring +13 combat expertise +3 fight defensive +53 AC Total (in surpise round it's quite abit lower, But I was going for max AC) Now that I did a proper add up I see I was low by 3 points:D
Banor 06-21-07, 07:53 AM	the FAQ state that the max dex bonus from armor is applied to deepwarder CON to armor (or is it the LGCS ?)
Gwumph 06-21-07, 10:02 AM	What page Banor?
Ira_Dei 06-21-07, 10:36 AM	Gwumph, when it works, it works. Although I haven't checked the rules myself, local triad/ GM's would be of the opinion that CON bonus is limited by armour. Otherwise, it's great to hide behind, but the attack roll is +2 modded by equipment, -4 for fighting defensively. So 20's needed to hit and doing no damage. What does intimidating strike do? I'm currently on a fighter with AC32 at 11th level, and for what it's worth, I'd love to smile at the GM and tell them my AC was 53. :evillaugh
GorTeX 06-21-07, 10:41 AM	page 11 of the LGCS: Under the 'Class Clarifications' section. Deepwarden: Stone Warden is limited by the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC for the type of armor worn
Gwumph 06-21-07, 12:20 PM	Intimidating Strike allows you to deduct BAB and add it to your Intimidate skill. If you hit the monster, you get to make an intimidate roll, if you succeed the monster is shaken for the entire encounter. Which mean -2 to attack rolls, or +2 armor :D LOL thinking about it's totally do-able. You can even drop the Stonelord level for something else. And drop a couple of con points. you should be able to AC 45+ +12 Armor (mithiral full plate + heavy op + great heavy op +2 magical) + 7 shield (tower shield + shield special + 2 magical) + 3 Con (16 easy to get) + 1 ring +13 combat expertise + 3 fight defensive +49 Total: (if you hit with the intimidating strike it goes up to 51) So there you go totally legal AC 49 (and not really that hard to get, mithiral full plate easy/ mithiral tower shield easy/ +2 to each peice of armor easy/ +1 ring easy / 16 constitution easy you buy a higher ring +2 or amulet natural +2 or upgrade both armors by another +1 (all less than 10k) by level 15 you should be over AC 55 Sickening isn't it:D
GorTeX 06-21-07, 12:31 PM	... +12 Armor (mithiral full plate + heavy op + great heavy op +2 magical)... Expect Table Variation on the Heavy/Greater Armor optimizaion. I stongly feel that the DMG would allow these feats to work with Mithral Full Plate. However, WOTC has ruled (in the FAQ, Customer service, in Dragon, in sage advice, etc) that Mithral armor is one category lighter for ALL purposes--so Heavy Armor Optimizaion feats will not work on Mithral Full Plate. (bunch of BS..DMG says it's lighter for Movement and other Limitations--not for all purposes...)
Gwumph 06-21-07, 12:34 PM	Sorry for the double post but drop fighting defensive and only combat expertise for +8 and you would have a 42 AC and that would add +8 to hit (+ str and other bonuses)
Franco Un-American 06-22-07, 01:31 AM	Also, you can't take Shield Specialization for a tower shield. The feat specifies choose buckler, light shield, or heavy shield. A tower shield is none of the above.
bitznarf 06-22-07, 01:40 AM	Level 12: Fighter 5: Steadfast determination Steadfast Determination is Closed.
Gwumph 06-22-07, 01:57 AM	Damn! Franco you are right..... You now I remember, you take shield specialzation. so you can take shield ward. Shield Ward applys your shield bonus to touch AC and bullrush,disarm,grapple,overrun,and trips checks against you. Shield ward also applies to all shields, not just heavy light or buckler. As for Steadfast determination, that was a throw out feat. You can put anything there instead. I still says its possible to have a walk around AC +35 and when really pumping it up have a +50 AC
bitznarf 06-22-07, 10:34 AM	Can you do that and still be considered enough of a threat by the bad guys that they will target you? If not, then your huge AC is going to waste.