Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane Guyver 07-03-07, 12:02 AM	I'm a little curious, how many folks here have used base classes outside the PHB, what were they, and how did it work out for you?
Lupo 07-03-07, 09:53 AM	I'm a little curious, how many folks here have used base classes outside the PHB, what were they, and how did it work out for you? i don't have any character with levels in non-PHB base classes yet and mostly have no intent to change this ;) • Beguiler (Player’s Handbook 2) most of the gadgets only work in melee, not a favorable place for ANY arcane caster type. • Favored Soul (Complete Divine) just way inferior to almost ANY cleric build, the only build that i ever came up with is a favored soul/stormlord :) • Healer (Miniatures Handbook) even worse than a favored soul, and all this for unicorn riding :) • Hexblade (Complete Warrior) can be a good start for an archer, but another player around here already has this build. • Knight (Player’s Handbook 2) not to appealing to me. • Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) utterly broken mechanism for the aurae just needs an errata. apart from this broken feature and a bonus feat at first level the class offers zero. guess why everyone is just taking a dip ;) • Scout (Complete Adventurer) skirmish damage is a shiny booby trap, works good UNTIL secondary or iterative or haste attacks kick in, then it falls behind the sneak damage quite fast. • Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) so far i haven't needed another bonus feat, especially not "weapon finesse" :), ok, it offers some more skill points and skills as well. might be a good start for whisperknife or invisible blade, but i haven't done a build for one of these yet. • Warmage (Complete Arcane) arcane artillery with near to zero buffing or utility spells. a warmage makes another arcane caster at the table mandatory. ciao martin m.
Banor 07-03-07, 11:22 AM	-Beguiler Saw it in action in an home game (he was using only LG open feats/spells) and it has to be one of the most annoying character i ever saw (Favored quote : Please get out of invisbility and do something or i'm killing the fighter !) -Favored soul Its a trap ! All good saves and weapon feats. Too bad its in a class that loose Turn undead, Divine spell list (you don't want this small restricted spell list as a Divine caster), and spontaneous casting (Favored quote : Sorry Mr. I can't drop this empower cure on you that be a full round action) -Hexblade Not too bad, curses can be fun but you need to max the class to get any monster not saving the pathetic will save. At least its a free action. Aura of unluck is nice at higher level and so is Mettle (love it :)) (Favored Quote : Sorry, you Disintegrate was totally ignored) -Knight d12 are good in an home game but as long as LG keeps the 1/2+1 of your HD, d12 arent worth it. Test of mettle make you a quite good tank but that will be the only you can dream about. Don't worry you will be very good at it. (Favored Quote : 5 foot step ? Not on my shift !) -Scout If you are planning on a spring attacker that might be usefull. Swift Hunter feat help a lot to be able to dish some damage. I agree with Lupo, once you get your iterative skirmish is lack luster. (Favored quote: Damn natural 1 on that listen check... I guess that make 20.) -Swashbuckler Good for wannabe rogue (Weapon finesse at L1) and Daring outlaw later on. You are basically a rogue that trade out his skills for BAB. or a fighter that trade Feats for skills points (Favored Quote :Why must Weapon finesse have a BAB +1 requirement !!!) -Warmage You are a fighter shooting magic. Make sure that everybody understand that as long as you arent fighting you are not able to do anything. (Favored Quote : So what Orb should i toss on that BBEG ?)
copper_wyrmling 07-03-07, 11:41 AM	I also don't have any PCs with levels in non-PHB base classes, but here's my take on some of them: - Beguiler: interesting skilful sorcerer/rogue replacement, should work perfectly well so long as you're willing to do no damage (focusing instead on buffs, save-or-be-in-trouble and utility spells). Works nicely with shadowcraft mage for gnomes. - Favored soul: spontaneous divine casting is very nice, and they get quite a lot of spells known, but in general, clerics are significantly stronger due to favored souls' lack of turning and domains and their split casting attribute. Still perfectly playable. - Hexblade: sort of meh, I've never been able to find a concept for it that I couldn't implement better with arcane/fighter prestige classes (spellsword, eldritch knight, etc). Most of the class features don't seem very interesting, and the bonus feat list is weak. - Swashbuckler: used to make an okay three-level dip but the abilities beyond that were weak, but now works well with rogue and the daring outlaw feat as a full-sneak-attack-and-BAB-progression class. - Scout: I like the concept, the mechanics of skirmish make the class fairly weak unless you can use Dervish or a similar ability to skirmish and still full attack. Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish are great feats. - Warmage: basically fragile archers with interesting magic "arrows" and some battlefield control, not true arcanists - they seem to work fine if the party acknowledges this. - Marshal: one-level dip is very nice, the class is unfortunately front-loaded and there's not a lot of reason to take more than one level. I haven't taken a good look at Healer and Knight yet.
Mommy was an Orc 07-03-07, 12:27 PM	Beguiler is pretty cool as a buffer/enchanter. They've got their weaknesses, but they're basically a Rogue with Haste and Glitterdust. Hard not to be useful with those two spells. Greater Mirror Image is an awesome spell as well. I've got a Beguiler 2 who is taking Arcane Disciple a few times, so he'll have a range of useful spells against undead or mindless creatures. Swashbuckler is now the best 4 skill point fullBAB 'Rogue' class with the addition of retraining and Daring Outlaw. Scout is good with the TWF charge, Swift Hunter and/or Dervish options. Marshal is a great dip, but the class itself is actually pretty well balanced. Once you've got people going first, it doesn't hurt to switch to a different aura. 7 levels is actually a great stopping point for it.
MatteBlack 07-03-07, 12:39 PM	I have a Marshall 4 that I will probably take through 8th. The others are right about it being front loaded but, it can be a nice help to the right party. Early on you are basically a dude with this surrounding aura and diplomacy. At fourth it has become a bit more interesting to play in combat as I am able to swap auras and give the extra movement. You are not going to be the rockstar but, the effect of your auras can add up as more and more use them. I don't know that you'll ever be a huge combat contributors but, you can likely help alot in other parts of a mod. By 6th I'll be giving DEX bonuses to initiative and combat tumbling then swapping to give bonuses while flanking and giving bonuses to INT in between to help with knowlege rolls and rogue skills. Not to mention adding +2damage to attacks or 10ft of movement to the whole party. The high charisma lessened demand for crucial feats will alow me to take leadership for an extra person(probably/fighter or cleric) to take my bonuses and or just walk around some fights through diplomacy. The extra movement can also be a life saver. I'll definitely be soft in combat but, I can wear enough armor to help where needed and be that extra utility guy while the iconic roles get to work. In all honestly, my character would be an awesome cohort. Marshal would probably also be good for a new player since its powers come on slowly keeping it easy to play at first. Again, it is an awesome dip but, a neat challenge to play. I haven't done bards so its unlike anything else I have played.
Nutation 07-03-07, 02:50 PM	-Knight d12 are good in an home game but as long as LG keeps the 1/2+1 of your HD, d12 arent worth it. Why not? The fixed value is higher than the average (7 vs. 6.5). Does your d12 in a home game roll above average?
Sieylianna 07-03-07, 06:33 PM	I have a rogue who is likely to go into beguiler and then to unseen seer. It's an interesting class, but I think the combat focus of LG weakens it. I have a favored soul archer. If I can get access to Ruathar, I'll be able to do something with a prestige class. Otherwise, it's going to get steadily weaker as it increases in APL. I also have a swashbuckler who was planned to go into rogue and invisible blade. The addition of daring outlaw is going to provide a boost, although damage output at high levels may still be an issue against creatures which are immune to sneak attack. I've wanted to play a healer for years and am seriously looking at creating one for the "Scourge" adaptable. But the class is weak and my future RSoP isn't far behind in healing and can turn undead, etc. I may even create another favored soul instead (my existing one is a devoted Highfolk PC, so play opportunities are limited). Ed
Munchausen 07-03-07, 09:36 PM	Knight: I started a Knight and so far it is great for 1st lvl (D12 is nice.. but really compared to d8 after 1st the only HP difference is 2 pts and d10 1 pt diff till u add con and the +1 LG rule). But with mine at 2nd lvl I took Favored soul.. nice for a backup healer IF needed (NICE to have those cure minors) but mostly for buffs (Hate it when your in a group with 2 clerics and not 1 of them do bless..Uggg). I MIGHT dip 1 lvl (or 2) into marshall.. but the BAB will hurt me alot as a tank.. as someone pointed out my idea.. i am just about a glorified Paladin..minus the LG alignment (heh) (Like to see the face of a GM when he asks how a knight is casting spells.. heh) Scout: This is my main.. so far Scout 3/ Ranger 1 and luv it.. very nice class (now if only i can unlock coordinated shot I would be set). Skills are nice.. and IF GM's/MODS would allow it so that we can acuttaly SCOUT ahead instead of having the GM/Mod go 'rush rush we need to finish this takign no longer than 4 hrs (UGH) Favored Soul: I have a lvl 2 and it is different.. yes you dont get to turn undead.. BUT just strait across you do get nice saves and more spells per day than a cleric (but clerics get the spell lvls faster.. but still FS cast more per day than a cleric.. just stay away from the mods that sound undead'ish) and lookign at Clerics.. After 1st lvl you get nothing else form the class.. just a dead zone.. to where FS you get something here and there as you lvl up. Swashbuckler: My wife started playing one and is very nice in cmbt.. its bad when a SB can get more agro than the tank. I would like to start one then at 2nd lvl go wizard to get a familiar.. something along the lines of a Raven (then get permission from Triad instead of a raven get a parrot) for roleplaying purposes. Thats the only non basic that we have played (though my wife wants to maybe try a marshall)
Hariman 07-05-07, 01:22 AM	I can't say much about all the classes, but I will say: - Beguiler: I haven't played or seen one yet. You won't be able to do much damage, but you should be able to support your party quite well and use buffs/debuffs and save VS shafting spells to good effect. - Favored soul: Good, but honestly, not as good as a cleric. It requires more work to keep a favored soul effective and alive at higher APLs than it does a cleric. - Hexblade: If you focus on one role, either Melee or Ranged Combat, you can do it well. Casting WILL be a secondary concern, and the curse eill only be significant if you level SOLELY in Hexblade. Choose one route and stick with it. I recommend either support/archer, Spring Attacker, or a high dex melee build. Using hexblade4 and fighter1 or barbarian1 is a great way to enter dragon disciple without losing any BAB. If you want a dragon disciple. - Warmage: Artillery, nothing more, nothing less. They are the best at blasting, but get little else. - Healer? We have that. It's called a Cleric, who can do a healer's job just as well and still turn. - Knight? The knight is an interesting alternate take on the paladin archetype. I think the knight is one of the BEST of the open non PHB classes. Play to it's strengths and you'll have a good melee character. One thing to keep in mind though: Be careful when playing a Non PHB class. There is something about all of them that makes them more risky. It's an odd quirk that they tend to die a little more in my area than the PHB classes do.
Detlar 07-07-07, 02:21 PM	Okay I have played a beguiler. I believe that many people underestimate the rogue abilities of the beguiler and at least at low levels the beguilers have sleep and color spray. Used sleep at lvl 1 to take down the ogre, like to see the fighter or rogue do that, the mage can, but can the mage disable the trap or can the mage properly use diplomacy in order to overcome an unnecessary battle. The greatest advantage of the beguiler class is the flexibility and this is true of some of the other classes, on the other hand the war mage creates the focused killing machine that so many players seem to favor by focusing the abilities into combat. From what I have read it appears to me that diplomacy is a lost art.:weep: Several of the mods I have participated in called for some degree of diplomacy or intelligence gathering and a couple have put warrior types in really bad situations, by taking away their weapons, leaving the warrior types as meat shields for those not needing such crutches in order to be useful.:P There is a place for any class played with due diligence and care.:) I mean if everyone was a fighter who would disarm traps or in a group full of mages who stops the charging ogre. Balance is the key in a party in a character and in life itself.:) Without the balance, we are all doomed I say:eek:
Donald_Cannith 07-08-07, 01:43 PM	My girlfriend plays a beguiler and she loves it. Oddly, it suffers from alot of the same problems as the rogue( she cannot really effect mindless undead, constructs, ect.) but, she has buffs also so she has something else to do if that comes up. Also the beguiler is one ofthefew base classes yo ucan take 1-15 and feel good about yourself. She is an enchantment specialist and we have been able to avoid several combats through charm person of all things. The spontaneousness is good too because you never know with enchantments and illusion which mahy be useful andthis really eliminates that as a problem. I have a fighter4/knight3 right now and I love it. I am a spiked gouda wielder and the Bulwark of defense really keeps the squishies so much safer than the average cork, especialy while enlarged :). Hoping to get an animated shield to Ac it up a bit. Swashbuckler is nice. It is cool to have a strength independent fighter capable of damage. The Rogue mix is perfect, and it makes a great lead in to invisible blade(IMO a great build).Though, those types arent really my cup of tea. Hexblade is an interesting class. Mixed with ranger it does make one hell of an archer(metle+evasion= awesome). I have played one in a home game
Mommy was an Orc 07-08-07, 07:11 PM	My girlfriend plays a beguiler and she loves it. Oddly, it suffers from alot of the same problems as the rogue( she cannot really effect mindless undead, constructs, ect.) but, she has buffs also so she has something else to do if that comes up. A lot of people underestimate just how effective a beguiler can be against mindless. A Silent Image(mindless are not immune to figments) of a wall, some creatures for them to attack, etc...Glitterdust is usually just as effective.
Hariman 07-09-07, 12:24 AM	My girlfriend plays a beguiler and she loves it. Oddly, it suffers from alot of the same problems as the rogue( she cannot really effect mindless undead, constructs, ect.) but, she has buffs also so she has something else to do if that comes up. Also the beguiler is one ofthefew base classes yo ucan take 1-15 and feel good about yourself. She is an enchantment specialist and we have been able to avoid several combats through charm person of all things. The spontaneousness is good too because you never know with enchantments and illusion which mahy be useful andthis really eliminates that as a problem. I have a fighter4/knight3 right now and I love it. I am a spiked gouda wielder and the Bulwark of defense really keeps the squishies so much safer than the average cork, especialy while enlarged :). Hoping to get an animated shield to Ac it up a bit. Swashbuckler is nice. It is cool to have a strength independent fighter capable of damage. The Rogue mix is perfect, and it makes a great lead in to invisible blade(IMO a great build). Though, those types aren't really my cup of tea. Hexblade is an interesting class. Mixed with ranger it does make one hell of an archer(metle+evasion= awesome). I have played one in a home game About Knights: You can actually save a feat if you wield a polearm and either armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet. This can also increase damage output, as normal polearms often have slightly better damage and better crit multipliers. Swashbucklers are actually best (Statistically) if they have a good strength score AND a good intelligence score. The higher your STR is the more you'll get out of the Int bonus to damage, as you base damage before int bonus will be higher. Hexblades are odd. They're good, but not great. They have to have a niche role to master, or they're just a generic character. One thing to keep in mind is that the curse will only be useful if you invest the majority of the character's levels into Hexblade.
Iswald 07-09-07, 11:54 AM	Hexblade and knight are options if you don't want to play paladin (disliking the lawful good requirement). Unless you go dervish, scout is better in a home game or for NPCs. Consider fighting a group of elven scout/shadowdancers in a forest with thick underbrush using the sniping rules and shot on the run. It's quire rare for PCs to be better off moving and shooting than standing in place and shooting.
CdrcJsn 07-09-07, 01:53 PM	I'm currently playing a 4th level half-elven Healer. Yeah, I know. Healer? Half-elf? Am I purposely nerfing myself before I start play? Probably, but I enjoy playing non-standard builds/classes and trying to make them work (single classed melee bard!). She's been fun to play and effective in the mods I've played her in so far (mostly adaptables). More effective than a cleric of her level in healing. For combat, her ranks in Handle Animal lets her control a riding dog and her tactic of Calm Emotions to split the enemy in the early rounds of the fight seems to be working. After she gets her little pony (unicorn) at 8th, I'll probably take a one level dip into Seeker of the Misty Isles for the Travel domain, adding a bit of utility. Then Contemplative for an extra domain after she picks up her level 12 mount.
Mattastrophic 07-09-07, 04:40 PM	I'm currently playing a 4th level half-elven Healer. Holy moley, you're actually running that build?!? Complete with SpellFocus and GrSpellFocus(Enchantment???) Let me know how it works out. Your melee bard remains an inspiration to us all. I love underdog builds. -Matt's primary is an optimized Virtuoso.
Britt 07-09-07, 05:38 PM	I played a healer in a home game a long time ago, without an expanded spell list. With the expanded spell list from the LGCS, the healer class is a perfectly valid choice, IMO. Without the expanded spell list, it's subpar, but definitely interesting and playable. It may be weaker than a cleric, but it's not just a weaker cleric (like favored soul is).
CdrcJsn 07-09-07, 06:12 PM	I played a healer in a home game a long time ago, without an expanded spell list. With the expanded spell list from the LGCS, the healer class is a perfectly valid choice, IMO. Without the expanded spell list, it's subpar, but definitely interesting and playable. It may be weaker than a cleric, but it's not just a weaker cleric (like favored soul is). It's pretty nice so far. The team just needs to know you're playing a healer with a narrow focus and not a cleric (so they shouldn't expect buffs, boom or bashing). Sorta like a warmage isn't a primary caster, but rather artillery. The only thing I think lacking from the spell list is Insignia of Healing. This is such a staple of mid level adventurers that I'm surprised it got left out of the expanded spells.
CdrcJsn 07-09-07, 06:17 PM	Holy moley, you're actually running that build?!? Complete with SpellFocus and GrSpellFocus(Enchantment???) I've decided against the spell focus for now, but will eventually take Heighten Spell. Currently only have Augment Healing and Spontaneous Healer so far. I might take fey heritage since it fits her personality, but will most likely take some of the newer feats that have come out.
mowaca 07-09-07, 11:28 PM	Beguiler is pretty cool as a buffer/enchanter. They've got their weaknesses, but they're basically a Rogue with Haste and Glitterdust. Hard not to be useful with those two spells. Greater Mirror Image is an awesome spell as well. I've got a Beguiler 2 who is taking Arcane Disciple a few times, so he'll have a range of useful spells against undead or mindless creatures.. I created a Beguiler Divine Oracle (for evasion) with Arcane Disciple Strength domain for my cohort and its working out great for our RHoD party. We spend a lot of combats hasted attacking blind enemies. It seems like Arcane Disciple is the way to go with Beguilers. Unseen Seer is a good dip too. And if you can use surprised casting effectively, my hat is off to you.
Britt 07-10-07, 02:08 AM	The only thing I think lacking from the spell list is Insignia of Healing. This is such a staple of mid level adventurers that I'm surprised it got left out of the expanded spells. It's not in the SpC and I wanted to stick solely to one book for the expanded spells.
Cardinal Teplin 07-10-07, 06:27 AM	I play a marshal. I really love the class. I may play a knight if I can get a build together that does more than just cork. I'm unlikely to play any of the others.
Grantor 07-10-07, 02:02 PM	I play a marshal. I really love the class. I may play a knight if I can get a build together that does more than just cork. I'm unlikely to play any of the others. I took Druid levels (and soon Beastmaster, stay close to full BAB) so that I could have a powerful mount later on. Thus, my Knight still corks, but my mount tears into the foes with my support. Being able to negate a hit on him with a ride check and keep foes from charging makes my mount a cork too, even without good barding access. Druid 1 [Wolf] Knight 1, 2, 3 [Wolf + Warhorse mount] Druid 2 Beastmaster X [start with Bison mount, then Rhino] Not sure if I can have the Rhino take the Tunnelfighter feat, but that is on the list of things to plan for if I can. And if the mounted thing really works out, I can always take Wild Plains Outrider and other mount-oriented PrCs.
Donald_Cannith 07-10-07, 07:24 PM	About Knights: You can actually save a feat if you wield a polearm and either armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet. This can also increase damage output, as normal polearms often have slightly better damage and better crit multipliers. True, but I am into saving money, the spiked chain has to be enhanced only once. Maybe later when I have more money and I can afford having two enchanced weapons. For now, I will take my chances. Plus the Spiked chain both trips and disarms, the others do not and the flail doesnt have reach.
CdrcJsn 07-10-07, 07:39 PM	It's not in the SpC and I wanted to stick solely to one book for the expanded spells. For the record (in case you decide to update the list in the next LGCS), I don't mind carrying an extra book (or three) if it means more spell options :P
Sieylianna 07-15-07, 02:12 PM	I ended up creating and playing a healer for the scourge adaptable (it's PC number 11, so no big deal). We also had a druid and a cleric, so we had plenty of healing. My healer had 4 cure minor wounds for 4 points of healing each and 4 cure light wounds for 1d8+6. (Augment healing and 16 Charisma). I poked a few things with my longspear, but healing was definitely the main combat role. The PC has decent diplomacy and skills, but they didn't really come into play in the module. My main concern is whether the PC is too one-dimensional for enjoyable play in the long term. The biggest factor in the game was open access to the elven courtblade. Two of six PCs were elves using courtblades (one swashbuckler and one fighter). The 18-20 critical threat range combined with a d10 for damage made a huge difference in the module. Combine that with weapon finesse and two handed power-attack and I think that weapon is a bargain even as an exotic weapon. Ed