Extra Smite with Two Smites [Archive] - Wizards Community

Extra Smite with Two Smites [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mommy was an Orc
04-01-07, 12:34 AM I was wondering how people ruled on Extra Smite when a character has smites from two different sources?

Example:
Cleric 1(St. Cuthbert - Destruction Domain)/Paladin 5 with Extra Smite with his 6th level feat.

He has 1 Cleric Smite and 2 Paladin smites normally per day. Does he:
Get to pick which one the smite goes to and has to stick to it?
Get to have a floating two smites?
Get to have 3 Cleric smites and 4 Paladin smites?

Just a question that's been bugging me, not really planning to make a character concept out of it, and I don't have a natural feeling to which way I'd rule on it.
Arvagor
04-01-07, 12:52 AM Unlike Divine Metamagic's wording, Extra Smiting doesn't say (for example), "When you take this feat, choose a smiting ability that you have. This feat applies only to that smiting ability." But it also doesn't say "For each smiting ability that you have..."

Based on the wording ("Use whatever smite ability you have"), I'd say it's two floating smites... So in the course of a day, you could do:
- 3 Cleric and 2 Paladin
- 2 Cleric and 3 Paladin
- 1 Cleric and 4 Paladin
Mithreinmaethor
04-01-07, 12:58 AM I was wondering how people ruled on Extra Smite when a character has smites from two different sources?

Example:
Cleric 1(St. Cuthbert - Destruction Domain)/Paladin 5 with Extra Smite with his 6th level feat.

He has 1 Cleric Smite and 2 Paladin smites normally per day. Does he:
Get to pick which one the smite goes to and has to stick to it?
Get to have a floating two smites?
Get to have 3 Cleric smites and 4 Paladin smites?

Just a question that's been bugging me, not really planning to make a character concept out of it, and I don't have a natural feeling to which way I'd rule on it.

I would think that #3 is the correct answer. Since the Destruction domains Smite doesnt stack with the Paladins, it is considered a different Smite source. So when you take the Extra Smiting Feat you would choose which of your 2 smiting abilities you apply it to.
Mommy was an Orc
04-01-07, 08:48 AM Unlike Divine Metamagic's wording, Extra Smiting doesn't say (for example), "When you take this feat, choose a smiting ability that you have. This feat applies only to that smiting ability." But it also doesn't say "For each smiting ability that you have..."

Based on the wording ("Use whatever smite ability you have"), I'd say it's two floating smites... So in the course of a day, you could do:
- 3 Cleric and 2 Paladin
- 2 Cleric and 3 Paladin
- 1 Cleric and 4 Paladin

It also doesn't have Extra Turning's 'If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.'

Complete Divine is sometimes extremely hard to read for intent...
Mommy was an Orc
04-01-07, 08:48 AM I would think that #3 is the correct answer. Since the Destruction domains Smite doesnt stack with the Paladins, it is considered a different Smite source. So when you take the Extra Smiting Feat you would choose which of your 2 smiting abilities you apply it to.

It sounds like you mean #1?
King Kashue
04-01-07, 11:45 AM It also doesn't have Extra Turning's 'If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.'

Complete Divine is sometimes extremely hard to read for intent...

Do you mean Complete Warrior? :confused:

Important to note, Improved Smiting out of Complete Divine does have the "this applies to all your smites" statement, so your point becomes more convincing to me.

And in general, this rule may be among of the least clearly written ever :D

Benefit: "When you take this feat, you gain two extra attempts to smite per day. Use whatever smite ability you have (the paladin's smite evil ability or the hunter of the dead's ability to smite undead, for example)." (CW p. 98).

"Use whatever smite ability you have" could mean any of the three interpretations you have at the top.

For me, I'd probably go with the middle interpretation of "two floating smites". It's not overpowered to rule it that way, the rule is definitely unclear, but as you note, it doesn't have the "you get two extra smites to all your smiting abilities" (and Imp. Smiting does, suggesting that the absence is important).
jstorrie
04-01-07, 03:36 PM This came up on Infinite Monkeys a while back and the consensus was that you get bonus smites of every type that you have.

Not super-useful unless you mix same-attribute-dependant smites, I guess. Paladin/Hunter of the Dead/Topaz Guardian? Destruction Cleric/Pious Templar?
Mommy was an Orc
04-01-07, 04:03 PM This came up on Infinite Monkeys a while back and the consensus was that you get bonus smites of every type that you have.

Not super-useful unless you mix same-attribute-dependant smites, I guess. Paladin/Hunter of the Dead/Topaz Guardian? Destruction Cleric/Pious Templar?

A Cleric 1/Paladin 5 with Power Attack, Divine Might, and 7 smites per day might not be getting iteratives, but with a 16 charisma, it will be doing quite a bit of damage.
jstorrie
04-01-07, 04:42 PM Destruction domain smite is only +4 to hit / cleric level to damage. Is that really worth a cleric dip and a feat?

I think the only optimal use of Extra Smite would be for Clerics with Pious Templar dips, or crazy Paladin mutts with multiple types of Charisma smites.
Mommy was an Orc
04-01-07, 06:18 PM Destruction domain smite is only +4 to hit / cleric level to damage. Is that really worth a cleric dip and a feat?

I think the only optimal use of Extra Smite would be for Clerics with Pious Templar dips, or crazy Paladin mutts with multiple types of Charisma smites.

Basically solbergb's Paladin build:
L1: Power Attack, improved smiting
L3: (feat)
L6: divine might
L9: extra smiting or practiced spellcaster
L12: practiced spellcaster or extra smiting
L15: extra smiting

Except, because you take Cleric at 1st level, you can pick up Divine Might at 3rd(the feat slot he didn't really know what to do with). That not only means you get more Paladin smites, you get Cleric smites for when you're not fighting something evil - you speed up his build.

And you double up the Improved Smiting he took at 1st.
solbergb
04-04-07, 02:27 PM as a side note, what you use a +4hit/+1 damage cleric smite for is to make your iterative as likely to hit as your main attack. Kinda sorta getting a flurry and letting you power attack for more without worrying as much about losing a whole attack.
Wraith235
06-17-07, 11:26 AM stupid question.... I'm fine with the "2 floating smites" but which book came out 2nd

Complee warrior .... or Complete Divine

and if Divine was 2nd ... 2hy is the older version listed in the campaighn standards
King Kashue
06-17-07, 12:28 PM stupid question.... I'm fine with the "2 floating smites" but which book came out 2nd

Complee warrior .... or Complete Divine

and if Divine was 2nd ... 2hy is the older version listed in the campaighn standards

Complete Divine was second, however, there's no reprint involved here, so the issue of "most recent text" doesn't enter into it.
GAMBLE_d13
07-24-07, 10:36 AM sorry for breathiing life into a thread that's a month old, but this...

A Cleric 1/Paladin 5 with Power Attack, Divine Might, and 7 smites per day might not be getting iteratives, but with a 16 charisma, it will be doing quite a bit of damage.

...confused me, why would this person be doing "quite a bit of damage?" is it due to Divine Might? (I noticed in the Feats index that there is about 4 or 5 different Divine Mights and was wondering if there is a better one than the one I am using found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight))

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Cheers.
Mommy was an Orc
07-24-07, 10:52 AM sorry for breathiing life into a thread that's a month old, but this...

...confused me, why would this person be doing "quite a bit of damage?" is it due to Divine Might? (I noticed in the Feats index that there is about 4 or 5 different Divine Mights and was wondering if there is a better one than the one I am using found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight))

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Cheers.

At Cleric 1/Paladin 5, he's got +3 to hit/+5 damage from Paladin and +4 to hit/+1 damage from Cleric. Then he's got an additional +3 damage from Divine Might. He's down 1 BAB from the Cleric level and 2 for not having Barbarian-style Rage, but a Barbarian only gets +3 damage from Strength. Let's say this is a standard Barbarian 1/Fighter X build with WF/WS.

In other words, with his Paladin smite, he's at -1 to hit compared with the Barbarian Fighter, but does the same damage. With his Cleric smite, he's at the same to-hit modifier, but does -4 damage. Then toss in the +1d6 against evil creatures for the Improved Smiting.

It isn't unbelievable damage by any means, but he's in the same ballpark as the semi-tweaked Barbarian(i.e. no reckless rage or 18+ starting Str), and that's before his Warhorse gets to make a few kicks. And because he'd have 7 Smites(as opposed to the 2 solbergb's build has at that point), he could keep it up for a while.
clannagh
07-25-07, 01:15 AM At Cleric 1/Paladin 5, he's got +3 to hit/+5 damage from Paladin and +4 to hit/+1 damage from Cleric. Then he's got an additional +3 damage from Divine Might. He's down 1 BAB from the Cleric level and 2 for not having Barbarian-style Rage, but a Barbarian only gets +3 damage from Strength. Let's say this is a standard Barbarian 1/Fighter X build with WF/WS.

In other words, with his Paladin smite, he's at -1 to hit compared with the Barbarian Fighter, but does the same damage. With his Cleric smite, he's at the same to-hit modifier, but does -4 damage. Then toss in the +1d6 against evil creatures for the Improved Smiting.

It isn't unbelievable damage by any means, but he's in the same ballpark as the semi-tweaked Barbarian(i.e. no reckless rage or 18+ starting Str), and that's before his Warhorse gets to make a few kicks. And because he'd have 7 Smites(as opposed to the 2 solbergb's build has at that point), he could keep it up for a while.

And thats not to mention the paladin spells .. he could in addition to smiting, divine sacrifice himself and share it with his mount to add a total of 10d6 damage to an attack per round.
King Kashue
07-25-07, 10:28 AM And thats not to mention the paladin spells .. he could in addition to smiting, divine sacrifice himself and share it with his mount to add a total of 10d6 damage to an attack per round.

He can't just add the damage to his mounts attack. He can share the spell itself, and the mount can choose to also use the spell to trade health to do extra damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 12:34 AM	I was wondering how people ruled on Extra Smite when a character has smites from two different sources? Example: Cleric 1(St. Cuthbert - Destruction Domain)/Paladin 5 with Extra Smite with his 6th level feat. He has 1 Cleric Smite and 2 Paladin smites normally per day. Does he: Get to pick which one the smite goes to and has to stick to it? Get to have a floating two smites? Get to have 3 Cleric smites and 4 Paladin smites? Just a question that's been bugging me, not really planning to make a character concept out of it, and I don't have a natural feeling to which way I'd rule on it.
Arvagor 04-01-07, 12:52 AM	Unlike Divine Metamagic's wording, Extra Smiting doesn't say (for example), "When you take this feat, choose a smiting ability that you have. This feat applies only to that smiting ability." But it also doesn't say "For each smiting ability that you have..." Based on the wording ("Use whatever smite ability you have"), I'd say it's two floating smites... So in the course of a day, you could do: - 3 Cleric and 2 Paladin - 2 Cleric and 3 Paladin - 1 Cleric and 4 Paladin
Mithreinmaethor 04-01-07, 12:58 AM	I was wondering how people ruled on Extra Smite when a character has smites from two different sources? Example: Cleric 1(St. Cuthbert - Destruction Domain)/Paladin 5 with Extra Smite with his 6th level feat. He has 1 Cleric Smite and 2 Paladin smites normally per day. Does he: Get to pick which one the smite goes to and has to stick to it? Get to have a floating two smites? Get to have 3 Cleric smites and 4 Paladin smites? Just a question that's been bugging me, not really planning to make a character concept out of it, and I don't have a natural feeling to which way I'd rule on it. I would think that #3 is the correct answer. Since the Destruction domains Smite doesnt stack with the Paladins, it is considered a different Smite source. So when you take the Extra Smiting Feat you would choose which of your 2 smiting abilities you apply it to.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 08:48 AM	Unlike Divine Metamagic's wording, Extra Smiting doesn't say (for example), "When you take this feat, choose a smiting ability that you have. This feat applies only to that smiting ability." But it also doesn't say "For each smiting ability that you have..." Based on the wording ("Use whatever smite ability you have"), I'd say it's two floating smites... So in the course of a day, you could do: - 3 Cleric and 2 Paladin - 2 Cleric and 3 Paladin - 1 Cleric and 4 Paladin It also doesn't have Extra Turning's 'If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.' Complete Divine is sometimes extremely hard to read for intent...
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 08:48 AM	I would think that #3 is the correct answer. Since the Destruction domains Smite doesnt stack with the Paladins, it is considered a different Smite source. So when you take the Extra Smiting Feat you would choose which of your 2 smiting abilities you apply it to. It sounds like you mean #1?
King Kashue 04-01-07, 11:45 AM	It also doesn't have Extra Turning's 'If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.' Complete Divine is sometimes extremely hard to read for intent... Do you mean Complete Warrior? :confused: Important to note, Improved Smiting out of Complete Divine does have the "this applies to all your smites" statement, so your point becomes more convincing to me. And in general, this rule may be among of the least clearly written ever :D Benefit: "When you take this feat, you gain two extra attempts to smite per day. Use whatever smite ability you have (the paladin's smite evil ability or the hunter of the dead's ability to smite undead, for example)." (CW p. 98). "Use whatever smite ability you have" could mean any of the three interpretations you have at the top. For me, I'd probably go with the middle interpretation of "two floating smites". It's not overpowered to rule it that way, the rule is definitely unclear, but as you note, it doesn't have the "you get two extra smites to all your smiting abilities" (and Imp. Smiting does, suggesting that the absence is important).
jstorrie 04-01-07, 03:36 PM	This came up on Infinite Monkeys a while back and the consensus was that you get bonus smites of every type that you have. Not super-useful unless you mix same-attribute-dependant smites, I guess. Paladin/Hunter of the Dead/Topaz Guardian? Destruction Cleric/Pious Templar?
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 04:03 PM	This came up on Infinite Monkeys a while back and the consensus was that you get bonus smites of every type that you have. Not super-useful unless you mix same-attribute-dependant smites, I guess. Paladin/Hunter of the Dead/Topaz Guardian? Destruction Cleric/Pious Templar? A Cleric 1/Paladin 5 with Power Attack, Divine Might, and 7 smites per day might not be getting iteratives, but with a 16 charisma, it will be doing quite a bit of damage.
jstorrie 04-01-07, 04:42 PM	Destruction domain smite is only +4 to hit / cleric level to damage. Is that really worth a cleric dip and a feat? I think the only optimal use of Extra Smite would be for Clerics with Pious Templar dips, or crazy Paladin mutts with multiple types of Charisma smites.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 06:18 PM	Destruction domain smite is only +4 to hit / cleric level to damage. Is that really worth a cleric dip and a feat? I think the only optimal use of Extra Smite would be for Clerics with Pious Templar dips, or crazy Paladin mutts with multiple types of Charisma smites. Basically solbergb's Paladin build: L1: Power Attack, improved smiting L3: (feat) L6: divine might L9: extra smiting or practiced spellcaster L12: practiced spellcaster or extra smiting L15: extra smiting Except, because you take Cleric at 1st level, you can pick up Divine Might at 3rd(the feat slot he didn't really know what to do with). That not only means you get more Paladin smites, you get Cleric smites for when you're not fighting something evil - you speed up his build. And you double up the Improved Smiting he took at 1st.
solbergb 04-04-07, 02:27 PM	as a side note, what you use a +4hit/+1 damage cleric smite for is to make your iterative as likely to hit as your main attack. Kinda sorta getting a flurry and letting you power attack for more without worrying as much about losing a whole attack.
Wraith235 06-17-07, 11:26 AM	stupid question.... I'm fine with the "2 floating smites" but which book came out 2nd Complee warrior .... or Complete Divine and if Divine was 2nd ... 2hy is the older version listed in the campaighn standards
King Kashue 06-17-07, 12:28 PM	stupid question.... I'm fine with the "2 floating smites" but which book came out 2nd Complee warrior .... or Complete Divine and if Divine was 2nd ... 2hy is the older version listed in the campaighn standards Complete Divine was second, however, there's no reprint involved here, so the issue of "most recent text" doesn't enter into it.
GAMBLE_d13 07-24-07, 10:36 AM	sorry for breathiing life into a thread that's a month old, but this... A Cleric 1/Paladin 5 with Power Attack, Divine Might, and 7 smites per day might not be getting iteratives, but with a 16 charisma, it will be doing quite a bit of damage. ...confused me, why would this person be doing "quite a bit of damage?" is it due to Divine Might? (I noticed in the Feats index that there is about 4 or 5 different Divine Mights and was wondering if there is a better one than the one I am using found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight)) Thanks in advance for any and all help. Cheers.
Mommy was an Orc 07-24-07, 10:52 AM	sorry for breathiing life into a thread that's a month old, but this... ...confused me, why would this person be doing "quite a bit of damage?" is it due to Divine Might? (I noticed in the Feats index that there is about 4 or 5 different Divine Mights and was wondering if there is a better one than the one I am using found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight)) Thanks in advance for any and all help. Cheers. At Cleric 1/Paladin 5, he's got +3 to hit/+5 damage from Paladin and +4 to hit/+1 damage from Cleric. Then he's got an additional +3 damage from Divine Might. He's down 1 BAB from the Cleric level and 2 for not having Barbarian-style Rage, but a Barbarian only gets +3 damage from Strength. Let's say this is a standard Barbarian 1/Fighter X build with WF/WS. In other words, with his Paladin smite, he's at -1 to hit compared with the Barbarian Fighter, but does the same damage. With his Cleric smite, he's at the same to-hit modifier, but does -4 damage. Then toss in the +1d6 against evil creatures for the Improved Smiting. It isn't unbelievable damage by any means, but he's in the same ballpark as the semi-tweaked Barbarian(i.e. no reckless rage or 18+ starting Str), and that's before his Warhorse gets to make a few kicks. And because he'd have 7 Smites(as opposed to the 2 solbergb's build has at that point), he could keep it up for a while.
clannagh 07-25-07, 01:15 AM	At Cleric 1/Paladin 5, he's got +3 to hit/+5 damage from Paladin and +4 to hit/+1 damage from Cleric. Then he's got an additional +3 damage from Divine Might. He's down 1 BAB from the Cleric level and 2 for not having Barbarian-style Rage, but a Barbarian only gets +3 damage from Strength. Let's say this is a standard Barbarian 1/Fighter X build with WF/WS. In other words, with his Paladin smite, he's at -1 to hit compared with the Barbarian Fighter, but does the same damage. With his Cleric smite, he's at the same to-hit modifier, but does -4 damage. Then toss in the +1d6 against evil creatures for the Improved Smiting. It isn't unbelievable damage by any means, but he's in the same ballpark as the semi-tweaked Barbarian(i.e. no reckless rage or 18+ starting Str), and that's before his Warhorse gets to make a few kicks. And because he'd have 7 Smites(as opposed to the 2 solbergb's build has at that point), he could keep it up for a while. And thats not to mention the paladin spells .. he could in addition to smiting, divine sacrifice himself and share it with his mount to add a total of 10d6 damage to an attack per round.
King Kashue 07-25-07, 10:28 AM	And thats not to mention the paladin spells .. he could in addition to smiting, divine sacrifice himself and share it with his mount to add a total of 10d6 damage to an attack per round. He can't just add the damage to his mounts attack. He can share the spell itself, and the mount can choose to also use the spell to trade health to do extra damage.