Face Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Face Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wangka
07-26-07, 02:01 PM As a relative newcomer to LG I've gotten the impression that certain skills only stay useful if continuously maximized as one levels (like Search and Disable Device). Does the same hold true for "face" skills like sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy? At higher APLs is it still worthwhile to have a few ranks in these skills or should it be an "all-or-nothing" thing?

Thanks
Jay_Ibero_911
07-26-07, 02:39 PM As a relative newcomer to LG I've gotten the impression that certain skills only stay useful if continuously maximized as one levels (like Search and Disable Device). Does the same hold true for "face" skills like sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy? At higher APLs is it still worthwhile to have a few ranks in these skills or should it be an "all-or-nothing" thing?

Thanks

It really just depends on how sure you want to be of success with those skills. Diplomacy is the easiest to put through the roof, with all the synergies and whatnot, so you probably won't need too many actual ranks to be successful in most cases. Sense Motive and Bluff are rarely useful at all, so if you are going to invest in them, you should be sure to max them out so when they do come up you have the best chance possible.
TWG_Prometheus
07-26-07, 03:08 PM It really depends on the nature of each skill individually.

Bluff & Disguise - Messing up on these skill checks can have dire consequences, so if I wanted to attempt it, I'd be sure to both max it out and start with at least a positive Charimsa modifier. If you're going to bank your character's life or reputation on it regularly, consider taking supporting feats.

Intimidate - The opposed roll on this one forces you to continually develop the skill to even have a chance since Intimidate is opposed by a level-based check. Occaisionally it can be useful to scare commoners, though. I got rid of a no-charging condition in a battle among the masses once this way. With full-rank investment in the skill however, you'll usually have a decent chance of winning these rolls since they usually only get their Wisdom bonus. Scaring Wis-dumped Wizards or Fighters isn't terribly hard with maximum skill investment. You start out at (Level + 3 + Cha) while they only get (Level + Wis + Fear bonus) making Intimidation somewhat viable even against Clerics and Druids.

Diplomacy & Gather Information - These are very common checks in Living Greyhawk. Fortunately, their DCs are also relatively static and defined by the rules rather than the opponent's stat-blocks. Unless you want to try to make someone that's Unfriendly be Helpful or have reliable full-round action Diplomacy checks, a high modifier is usually not required, but being able to hit the DC 25s without a natural 16+ is useful.

Sense Motive - Typically, anyone worth using this skill on will tend to have a high Bluff modifier. Making a lie-detector character is still quite viable, however, and could save you some trouble. Sadly, modules all too often leave out information that PCs can glean with this skill, but it isn't for the times that you don't need it. Sense Motive is for the times you do. A mid-rank Sense Motive score is not typically useful since most mid-rank Sense Motive DCs reveal little interesting information. It's not world-ending if you fail one of these usually, however, so full skill-rank investment is probably enough if you want to do the Sense Motive thing. *Let your DM know in advance if you've invested heavily in Sense Motive*
UMiskatonic
07-26-07, 03:21 PM I would add speak language to the list.

This one rewards a fixed investment. You don't need to continue, speaking 7-10 languages is probably enough. However, if you ignore it entirely, you risk throwing away all the ranks that you put into diplomacy and bluff.

It's a class skill for marshals, bards, and scouts, too.
bitznarf
07-26-07, 03:27 PM This last bit can be mitigated somewhat with spells such as comprehend languages and tongues.
NeSoDak
07-26-07, 08:12 PM I have made a "Face" character, and I find that there is always a mod or two each year that I am missing a language. If your going to take more than the basic core languages, take them all. By core languages, I mean elven, dwarven, draconic, orc and giant. These languages can get you through 90% of the mods out there, IMO. However if you want to start learning the other languages, you never know which ones will help the most.

Despite the thought that you think they would be commonly used, I've rarely used Celestial, Infernal, or Abyssal. However the elemental languages have come up more often than I thought they would. Also, the different regional human languages come in handy now and again, but rarely are a mod breaker if you don't know them. Right now my face character has 18 languages and plans on picking them all up.

Just my two cents.
Mattastrophic
07-26-07, 09:09 PM Tongues for the win, I say. Extend it, Pearl it, have it up all day every day if you want. Beats spending a zillion skill points.

-Matt
clannagh
07-26-07, 09:17 PM Oddly ... the most useful skill in all LG tends to be knowledge Local.
copper_wyrmling
07-27-07, 01:49 AM I've found having untrained diplomacy and gather info in the mid-teens to be very useful with my sorcerer, at APL 10-14. As was said earlier, most of these checks are untiered - you won't break games with them unless you max them out, but for getting all the clues in the mod and making sure the NPCs will talk to you, her +15-16 modifier seems to be enough (usually) even at high APLs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wangka 07-26-07, 02:01 PM	As a relative newcomer to LG I've gotten the impression that certain skills only stay useful if continuously maximized as one levels (like Search and Disable Device). Does the same hold true for "face" skills like sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy? At higher APLs is it still worthwhile to have a few ranks in these skills or should it be an "all-or-nothing" thing? Thanks
Jay_Ibero_911 07-26-07, 02:39 PM	As a relative newcomer to LG I've gotten the impression that certain skills only stay useful if continuously maximized as one levels (like Search and Disable Device). Does the same hold true for "face" skills like sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy? At higher APLs is it still worthwhile to have a few ranks in these skills or should it be an "all-or-nothing" thing? Thanks It really just depends on how sure you want to be of success with those skills. Diplomacy is the easiest to put through the roof, with all the synergies and whatnot, so you probably won't need too many actual ranks to be successful in most cases. Sense Motive and Bluff are rarely useful at all, so if you are going to invest in them, you should be sure to max them out so when they do come up you have the best chance possible.
TWG_Prometheus 07-26-07, 03:08 PM	It really depends on the nature of each skill individually. Bluff & Disguise - Messing up on these skill checks can have dire consequences, so if I wanted to attempt it, I'd be sure to both max it out and start with at least a positive Charimsa modifier. If you're going to bank your character's life or reputation on it regularly, consider taking supporting feats. Intimidate - The opposed roll on this one forces you to continually develop the skill to even have a chance since Intimidate is opposed by a level-based check. Occaisionally it can be useful to scare commoners, though. I got rid of a no-charging condition in a battle among the masses once this way. With full-rank investment in the skill however, you'll usually have a decent chance of winning these rolls since they usually only get their Wisdom bonus. Scaring Wis-dumped Wizards or Fighters isn't terribly hard with maximum skill investment. You start out at (Level + 3 + Cha) while they only get (Level + Wis + Fear bonus) making Intimidation somewhat viable even against Clerics and Druids. Diplomacy & Gather Information - These are very common checks in Living Greyhawk. Fortunately, their DCs are also relatively static and defined by the rules rather than the opponent's stat-blocks. Unless you want to try to make someone that's Unfriendly be Helpful or have reliable full-round action Diplomacy checks, a high modifier is usually not required, but being able to hit the DC 25s without a natural 16+ is useful. Sense Motive - Typically, anyone worth using this skill on will tend to have a high Bluff modifier. Making a lie-detector character is still quite viable, however, and could save you some trouble. Sadly, modules all too often leave out information that PCs can glean with this skill, but it isn't for the times that you don't need it. Sense Motive is for the times you do. A mid-rank Sense Motive score is not typically useful since most mid-rank Sense Motive DCs reveal little interesting information. It's not world-ending if you fail one of these usually, however, so full skill-rank investment is probably enough if you want to do the Sense Motive thing. Let your DM know in advance if you've invested heavily in Sense Motive
UMiskatonic 07-26-07, 03:21 PM	I would add speak language to the list. This one rewards a fixed investment. You don't need to continue, speaking 7-10 languages is probably enough. However, if you ignore it entirely, you risk throwing away all the ranks that you put into diplomacy and bluff. It's a class skill for marshals, bards, and scouts, too.
bitznarf 07-26-07, 03:27 PM	This last bit can be mitigated somewhat with spells such as comprehend languages and tongues.
NeSoDak 07-26-07, 08:12 PM	I have made a "Face" character, and I find that there is always a mod or two each year that I am missing a language. If your going to take more than the basic core languages, take them all. By core languages, I mean elven, dwarven, draconic, orc and giant. These languages can get you through 90% of the mods out there, IMO. However if you want to start learning the other languages, you never know which ones will help the most. Despite the thought that you think they would be commonly used, I've rarely used Celestial, Infernal, or Abyssal. However the elemental languages have come up more often than I thought they would. Also, the different regional human languages come in handy now and again, but rarely are a mod breaker if you don't know them. Right now my face character has 18 languages and plans on picking them all up. Just my two cents.
Mattastrophic 07-26-07, 09:09 PM	Tongues for the win, I say. Extend it, Pearl it, have it up all day every day if you want. Beats spending a zillion skill points. -Matt
clannagh 07-26-07, 09:17 PM	Oddly ... the most useful skill in all LG tends to be knowledge Local.
copper_wyrmling 07-27-07, 01:49 AM	I've found having untrained diplomacy and gather info in the mid-teens to be very useful with my sorcerer, at APL 10-14. As was said earlier, most of these checks are untiered - you won't break games with them unless you max them out, but for getting all the clues in the mod and making sure the NPCs will talk to you, her +15-16 modifier seems to be enough (usually) even at high APLs.