Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Japangirl 12-30-06, 01:07 AM	So I was thinking about someone absolutely obssessed with controlling destiny, and I came up with this. For the RP, this character had terrible luck her whole life until she started worshipping Istus, but thought that she could better affect her destiny and the destiny of others through arcane study after she saw a fatespinner take on impossible odds and beat them. She also feels that the best way to worship Istus is to take one's destiny into one's own hands. It's not weak by any means, but I don't consider it uber powergamed either. What do people think? Oh, and feel free to give suggestions for those free feats. Metamagic feats could work, or maybe something else. I don't know. Human Cleric 1(Istus, Luck and Destiny domains)/Wizard 5/Fatespinner 5/Divine Oracle 4 Str:9 Dex:10 Con:14 Int:17 Wis:14 Cha:8 1. Cleric 1: Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)), Improved Initiative 2. Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll (bonus), familiar 3. Wizard 2: Arcane Disciple (Destiny domain) 4. Wizard 3: +1 Int 5. Wizard 4: 6. Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item (bonus), Insightful Reflexes 7. Divine Oracle 1: Oracle Domain 8. Divine Oracle 2: Evasion, +1 Int 9-13. Fatespinner 1-5: +1 Int, Practiced Spellcaster (wizard), <some other feat> 14-15. Divine Oracle 3-4: <some feat>
Mommy was an Orc 12-30-06, 01:57 PM	I dunno. I think it seems a bit on the weak side for the most part - once you hit APL 6-8 or so, that Cleric level won't mean as much. Playing up 1 is going to hurt a lot at those levels. What's the deal with the Arcane Disciple feat? You don't get the granted power and you can already cast half the spells it gives you anyway...
Japangirl 12-30-06, 02:18 PM	The cleric level is for the two domain powers. A Luck reroll for myself and a Destiny reroll for someone else, once per day each. I wish to be able to cast Delay Death as a third level arcane spell, which is why Arcane Disciple, because as you said I can cast most of the other ones as arcane spells already. Like I said, not terribly powerful but consumed with controlling her destiny and the destiny of everyone around her. The perfect magic items for this character are a Luckstone and an Amulet of Fortune Prevailing.
Mommy was an Orc 12-30-06, 03:00 PM	The cleric level is for the two domain powers. A Luck reroll for myself and a Destiny reroll for someone else, once per day each. I wish to be able to cast Delay Death as a third level arcane spell, which is why Arcane Disciple, because as you said I can cast most of the other ones as arcane spells already. I'm aware of the benefits of Luck/Destiny. I just think that's an extremely heavy cost for a Wizard build, especially with the later loss of a caster level. At 13+, you're no longer even a primary caster in some ways. You also won't currently be able to use Delay Death as a 3rd level spell - you don't have the 10+Spell level necessary to use it(aka 13). While you could get a Periapt of Wisdom, that's a risky course for a Wizard whose biggest concern is Fort Saves...
Japangirl 12-30-06, 03:35 PM	Altered the stats to make it possible. I agree, a Periapt isn't a good idea, when both Amulets of Con and an Amulet of Fortune Prevailing take up the busy neck slot. And the Practiced Spellcaster means that while I'll only ever get 7th instead of eighth level spells, at least they'll all be at 15th caster level. The other option was Divine Oracle 5/Fatespinner 4, but spinning saves up or down 10 is really good. The cleric level helps the Fort save, and a rat familiar would too.
UMiskatonic 12-30-06, 06:32 PM	I'd drop Insightful Reflexes. At 6th level, you'll be able to make gloves of dex and cloaks of resistance, and you'll have access to a number of spells that boost saving throws. Using a precious feat choice, to me, is a less effective way to go. I'd also drop either the Cleric level or Arcane disciple. Let's say you want to cast delay death. As a first level cleric, it's on your spell list. You can use wands of it automatically, and you have a chance with scrolls. If you are an arcane disciple, you gain a caster level by dropping the cleric level, and you'll be able to cast delay death as soon at 7th level. You'll get Craft Wondrous a level earlier, as well.
UMiskatonic 12-30-06, 06:35 PM	Do you see yourself as a diviner, then? It's a pretty good choice as a specialist, you only have to drop one other school. What will this character do if a fight breaks out?
budleiser 12-30-06, 09:31 PM	Do you see yourself as a diviner, then? It's a pretty good choice as a specialist, you only have to drop one other school. What will this character do if a fight breaks out? Reroll initiative so she can be the first to run?? just teasing ;)
Japangirl 12-30-06, 10:15 PM	Do you see yourself as a diviner, then? It's a pretty good choice as a specialist, you only have to drop one other school. What will this character do if a fight breaks out? What do normal wizards do when fights break out? I glitterdust the sh*t out of stuff, of course. Charm/dominate sometimes, try to make combats easier by various divination magics beforehand since this character is fairly obviously a diviner-type, even if I don't specialize. Until 13, I have sorceror progression on spell level so I'm not terribly far behind the power curve. For really bad looking situations, I have two Lesser Vigors and at least one Delay Death prepped. I can have myself reroll one save and someone else reroll any d20 roll based on my domains, and I can spin people's saves up or down to make certain combats a lot easier. I might even be able to make a Phantasmal Killer stick sometime. This is not a blasty wizard, but illusion and enchantment are likely to be used a lot. UM, the reason I want Insightful Reflexes is that my Int will be 20 base, 26 with a headband +6, while my Dex cannot ever exceed 16. That's +5 difference in reflex save, and with evasion I might as well get that save as high as possible. Arcane Disciple allows me to cast Delay Death as a 3rd level spell, where otherwise it is a fourth level spell. Wands are nearly impossible to come by, if not straight up impossible. Scrolls get rather pricey, and I'd rather not blow a caster level check. Also, the spell is an immediate action but using a scroll is a standard action. While they are two precious feat slots, I also have two feat slots unfilled as of yet and I think those two feats add a lot to the build. If/when I start getting squeezed for feats, then I may reconsider those feats. I hope this explains my reasoning, even if you disagree with it :).
UMiskatonic 12-31-06, 12:27 AM	Japangirl, That does make sense, and I'm happy to admit that there's more than one way to build a wizard. Without the usual standbys of point-blank, precise, and empower, you're not going to be the world's best evoker. I'm really glad to see that you understand that, some don't. Ex) I played with a wizard who explained to me "I got killed in a previous mod, so now that I'm 6th level again, I fixed it by taking the run feat". Anyway, as a utility wizard/backup healer, you'll won't always have the spotlight. As long as that's okay, I think you'll be effective. With evasion, which I hadn't thought of, it's actually a pretty good move. And I agree with you on Arcane disciple, it's a solid move. But I think it makes the cleric level unneeded, and you're better off, in my opinion, as a straight wizard with the arcane disciple feat.
Morgen 12-31-06, 02:01 PM	As a mention for fort saves...well if the DC is 27 your probably not going to make it. How many wizards run around with an armor class over 12 at APL 14?
Japangirl 12-31-06, 03:38 PM	As a mention for fort saves...well if the DC is 27 your probably not going to make it. Yeah, but my rogue can't often make a DC 27 Fort save either, and she has two fighter levels. I think I figured at level 15, this character's Fort save would be about +15 (assuming +5 cloak/vest of resistance), which isn't too shabby. Also, at 15 I should have my Luck domain reroll, my Amulet of Fortune Prevailing reroll, and possibly a Mantle of Second Chances reroll. +2 cleric level, +1 five wiz levels, +1 five fatespinner levels, +1 four divine oracle levels, +2 rat familiar, +5 vest/cloak, +3 con (assume ioun stone +2 or amulet +2 at a minimum), +1 luckstone = 16. Also, how often does a fighter make a DC 27 Will save? Yet no one says that his/her build is bad because of it . . . please keep criticisms of this build helpful.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-31-06, 10:32 PM	I like your concept, and think you certainly will make an interesting support caster. Just to give you a different possibility, I put this together: Race:Human Alignment:Neutral (Istus, Luck+Destiny) STR-10 (2) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-15 (8) WIS-14 (6) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Cleric)Feat, Feat Lv2(Cleric) Lv3(Wizard)Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard), Scribe Scroll Lv4(Cleric)+1 INT Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item Lv7(Mystic Theurge) Lv8(Mystic Theurge)+1 INT Lv9(Mystic Theurge)Feat Lv10(Mystic Theurge) Lv11(Fatespinner) Lv12(Fatespinner)Feat, +1 INT Lv13(Fatespinner) Lv14(Fatespinner) Lv15(Fatespinner)Feat You get the normal benefits/drawbacks of mystic theurge here, in this case it will allow you to cast Delay Death from your cleric side, as well as getting 4th level cleric spells. You'll definately want to craft pearls of power like crazy. Might want to throw a divine feat in there, or something. Wind up with even more versatility, but take a bigger hit to your casting. You may want to try spell focus/Greater spell focus, or spell penetration/greater spell penetration, and then Arcane Mastery, so you can automatically bypass SR equal to 14+CL.
Maesto 01-08-07, 11:16 PM	Dunno about others, but I really like the idea. Don't get me wrong, you don't need 8th level spells. If you can almost guarantee that somebody will be failing a saving throw, you're basically set. I think the cleric level adds flavour and cool stuph to the build. I'd be wanting to craft an ioun stone of +2 wis to get to wis 16 at some point in time, because warp destiny is just a great spell at 6th level. Remember, you're a wizard, and it doesn't particularly matter by level 12 or so if you've lost a spell level, you're still awfully potent, and multiple rerolls for the entire party will be greatly appreciated. Just my 2c. Cheers, J P.S. My 15th level wizard has a fort save of +13 and is quite happy with that. Reflex of +13 with prescient sense also. It's almost never failed me.
_m_ 01-09-07, 12:08 AM	How many wizards run around with an armor class over 12 at APL 14? i'm a bit confused by this question. i asume it was either a typo or a joke that didn't carry to text very well... cuz, like, all wizards have ac over 12... at lvl 1... whilst the reflex save would be nice, it's very rarely an issue. i mean, sure, if you fail a reflex save, you'll quite probably take a whole butload of damage, maybe even drop into negatives, need a delay death, who knows... but if you fail a fort save... you DIE. and decent con will give u a reasonable fort save anyway.
Japangirl 01-09-07, 12:31 AM	Hee I have the m. seal of approval!
Potmos 01-09-07, 10:33 AM	i'm a bit confused by this question. i asume it was either a typo or a joke that didn't carry to text very well... cuz, like, all wizards have ac over 12... at lvl 1... Really? Hmm...let me check my character sheet for my wizard... Let's see, AC 12. Cleric1/Wiz6/Loremaster1. Never died. And I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast Mage Armour or Greater Mage Armour on myself. It's usually reserved for the party monk or animals. And in combat, there are way more important things to than cast Shield. Haste, Enlarge Person, stat boosting spells, Displacement, Bless, Benign Transposition the fighter into place to get a full attack, etc. How did I survive to 8th level with an AC of 12? Easy. Give the bad guys something else to worry about. Put the meat-shields between me and the bad guys--if they can't get to me, they can't hurt me. Area of effect spells are going to get me no matter what my AC, and if the enemy wizard decides to hit me with touch spells, mage armour isn't going to help anyway. The only issue is magic missiles, but more often than not the enemy wizard isn't around long enough to do a lot of damage with magic missiles. After all, a hasted and enlarged spike-chain wielding fighter makes it hard for an enemy wizard to cast when said wizard is dead. Now that I'm higher level, an extended Greater Mage Armour is probably going to be part of my daily routine, but I'm finding that at APL 8 and 10 in Ket, having an AC of 20 or so just means that the bad guys have a good chance to miss on their third or fourth attacks, but have probably already dished out 40 or 50 points of damage by then. Michael, aka Gathas al'Vay, one of the few non-evil Air Archons in Ket.
Alpha_Nerd 01-09-07, 11:15 AM	Wizard 5, almost Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1. AC 9, no deaths :) I think the 36 hitpoints has something to do with it though.
CrystalBlue 01-09-07, 01:15 PM	I've never really understood why fatespinners were so popular. Sure, you can increase or decrease the saves of some of your spells, but it's only by one point...two tops. I guess the reroll ability is good...I don't know. Then again, I haven't read that much into fatespinner. Playing clerics makes me like only clerics, it seems. :D
Alpha_Nerd 01-09-07, 01:19 PM	We had a fatespinner at our table put a dc 32 hold person into someone's spell storing sword. He was pretty good at what he did. Please don't argue about the DC of something in a spell storing weapon, I know it might not had been legal but we asked the DM beforehand and he said it was ok so there take that.
Randall Montgomery 01-09-07, 01:51 PM	Personally, I'm looking forward to my stat bump at level 12, when my now Wizard 7/Fatespinner 4 will be casting Disintigrate with a DC of 28 once/day (10 base + 6 spell level + 7 int bonus + 1 spell focus transmutation + 4 spin). After having to save against three of them myself, it'll be much funner to dish them out. :D Also, my wizard typically has a AC of 17 (+3 dex and Mage Armor), and aside from one death due to a poor tactical decision on my part, he's done ok. Finally, I rather like the build, but I like my evocation spells too much to go with something like this. Could be really kicking as a support character though, especially with the right spell selection. Only problem with the divination stuff is that most of it has a fairly high casting time, so you'll want to take into account that some of it might not be useable in some adventures where you need to beat the clock.
Japangirl 01-09-07, 02:45 PM	Only problem with the divination stuff is that most of it has a fairly high casting time, so you'll want to take into account that some of it might not be useable in some adventures where you need to beat the clock. Nodnod. Divination is hard to use properly, so it'll certainly be a challenge to make it work in mods with time restraints or just to make it useful in general. My 6 wizard with AC 10 hasn't died yet either. Meatshields, strategic party placement (stand in the middle, not the front or back), and a strategy of crowd control so I don't become a significant target have kept me alive. My defensive spell of choice is Mirror Image, in which my AC doesn't matter very much.
Alpha_Nerd 01-09-07, 03:08 PM	Wait until you can toss out a 16th level commune and just go down the list. Will we be attacked on our adventure. Will our opponents use sonic Will our opponents use fire Will our opponents be outsiders I think you get the drill.
LachlarlanIII 01-09-07, 03:27 PM	As a mention for fort saves...well if the DC is 27 your probably not going to make it. How many wizards run around with an armor class over 12 at APL 14? My wizard always has an AC over 12. With 16 Dex his AC is 13! ;)
_m_ 01-09-07, 05:29 PM	you crazy people need to build stronger wizards *grin*. my multiclass wizard shadowcaster at lvl 8 sat on around 60 hp with 30+ ac. i'd be far to scared to run around with no ac. of course, my character is kind of a maniac, who always... ALWAYS wants to go first everyone, so it kind of results in him getting attacked... like, alot. guess thats y im all for high ac.
Japangirl 01-09-07, 11:39 PM	you crazy people need to build stronger wizards *grin*. my multiclass wizard shadowcaster at lvl 8 sat on around 60 hp with 30+ ac. i'd be far to scared to run around with no ac. of course, my character is kind of a maniac, who always... ALWAYS wants to go first everyone, so it kind of results in him getting attacked... like, alot. guess thats y im all for high ac. My wizard hides a lot behind other people :).
Lomiat 01-10-07, 12:43 AM	My wizard hides a lot behind other people :). My wizard tends to fly 40 feet above the combat. It's really quite amazing how rare flying opponents actually are. But when they start coming at you, Contingent Mirror Image has Mage Armor beat any day.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-10-07, 10:08 AM	My wizard tends to fly 40 feet above the combat. It's really quite amazing how rare flying opponents actually are. But when they start coming at you, Contingent Mirror Image has Mage Armor beat any day. True, Mirror Image does give better odds of not being hit, there's no reason NOT to have mage armor up anyway, given it's duration...
solbergb 01-10-07, 05:17 PM	My sorc is also 12 AC at level 10, same as at level 1. The reason she doesn't have mage amror cast is because she has better uses for her L1 spells known. I do accept it if some other arcane casts it, and rarely I use a scroll for something like a battle interactive. She uses "air barriers". As in "I'm to far away for a move-and-attack from any enemy and there are no clear charge lanes to me". She uses cover/prone vs ranged attacks, especially ranged touch, and has gloves of arrow snaring for the odd attempt to interrupt her spellcasting with a projectile or thrown weapon. The only thing more AC would help with is when she's surprised. If she can act, she can usually do something that makes her much more safe than just adding AC.
Japangirl 01-10-07, 06:25 PM	I use mage armor occasionally now, since it does last six hours. But this is the first level I've used it at all. And my third level spells are kind of limited right now (level 6) so I don't fly around very much, nor can I cast a contingency yet. My defense at higher levels is going to be Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil levels. Mmmm tasty bubbles. The Fatespinner though. The communes will be awesome. I think I'll make this one my Greyhawk character, for the new Core story arc coming out.
_m_ 01-10-07, 07:09 PM	My wizard hides a lot behind other people :). mine has hide in plane sight, and can, when the mood strikes him, hide at over 100. ... he just chooses not to. at lvl 8 blink, blur, trog form, shield, extended gmage armour, fly, d-door, flicker, mirror image, 60+ hp... why bother hiding :D
clannagh 01-10-07, 08:23 PM	mine has hide in plane sight, and can, when the mood strikes him, hide at over 100. ... he just chooses not to. at lvl 8 blink, blur, trog form, shield, extended gmage armour, fly, d-door, flicker, mirror image, 60+ hp... why bother hiding :D because you were just swooped in mid air (without fly activated) by a pair of annoyed flaming red dragons and have about 2 hit points ??? .. you where very lucky to dimension door out of that one with hit points left
Lomiat 01-10-07, 09:42 PM	mine has hide in plane sight, and can, when the mood strikes him, hide at over 100. ... he just chooses not to. at lvl 8 blink, blur, trog form, shield, extended gmage armour, fly, d-door, flicker, mirror image, 60+ hp... why bother hiding :D Okay, I'll bite: How do you hide at over 100?
_m_ 01-10-07, 09:53 PM	because you were just swooped in mid air (without fly activated) by a pair of annoyed flaming red dragons and have about 2 hit points ??? .. you where very lucky to dimension door out of that one with hit points left indeed, i was... shuda hid in the air :D as for the over 100 hide, its not all inate :D +40 standing still from invisibility makes up a big chunk of it +10 or 20 from... surprise surprise, a take 10 or take 20 +12 from static ranks +4 or 8 from alter self racial traits +5 from uuber hiding wonderfull clothing goodness of the elvenkind +8 iirc from shadow template +4 from a metaorgish thingy +2 i think from shadowsilk armour +5 from a shadow mystery +3 inate from somewhere else, which i cant say, i think its still current. those may not all be exactly accurate, i dont have my character sheets with me at work, so some could be a bit off, but i think thats ust about all of it.
Lomiat 01-10-07, 10:13 PM	Oh.... Well, if you're gonna count all that stuff, I'm pleased as punch that my wizard can hide at a 50 or so :dancin: I'll just have to remember to tell that to our local Shadowdancer... He's always whining about how ineffectual his character is, anyway (even though his character is actually quite good).... If he gets Hiding envy, it'll be the end of him. ... which brings up the question: What's the sound of a Shadowdancer imploding while hidden in plain sight?
_m_ 01-10-07, 10:18 PM	... which brings up the question: What's the sound of a Shadowdancer imploding while hidden in plain sight? i dunno... my wiz has hide in plainsight... i could cast like... gfire burst or something, see what it sounds like, and let you know :D
Maesto 01-11-07, 09:40 AM	Note that the latest faq forbids you from taking 20 on opposed rolls. So no more hiding while taking 20, sorry folks. Cheers, Jolyon
_m_ 01-11-07, 05:00 PM	Note that the latest faq forbids you from taking 20 on opposed rolls. So no more hiding while taking 20, sorry folks. Cheers, Jolyon awww.... but that will like... drop my hide from 110 to 100... i dont know if i can handle that.
clannagh 01-11-07, 06:05 PM	Note that the latest faq forbids you from taking 20 on opposed rolls. So no more hiding while taking 20, sorry folks. Cheers, Jolyon now THAT is interesting