Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 11:30 AM	Here's my current look at a character about to play somewhere between 4-8 mods in the next month or so - hasn't yet been started... Human Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8 1: Beguiler 1: Well-Read(Keoland Regional feat), Arcane Disciple(Healing) 2: Beguiler 2 3: Beguiler 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4: Beguiler 4 5: Beguiler 5: Silent Spell (retrain Arcane Disciple into Transdimensional Spell) 6: Unseen Seer 1: Arcane Disciple(?), pick up 4 ranks of Know(Religion), total of 8 (retrain 4 original ranks of Know(Religion) into something else) 7: Beguiler 6 (retrain Well-Read into Sculpt Spell) 8: Beguiler 7 9: Beguiler 8: Arcane Disciple(?) 10: Unseen Seer 2 11: Beguiler 9 12: Beguiler 10: Arcane Disciple(?), Still Spell 13: Beguiler 11 14: Beguiler 12 15: Beguiler 13: Who knows The domains will either be the following: Pelor: Good, Purification, Sun Vogan: Healing, Windstorm, Good Zodal: Community, Healing, Good I know taking 3 helpings of Arcane Disciple isn't the most optimized move, but it fits what I plan to do with the character. Will probably be Pelor - he's this Beguiler who has spent a little too much time in the Sun, so he thinks he's a Favored Soul of him. He'll eventually use magic items via UMD to heal people. Comments?
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 11:30 AM	Legal version of the build without retraining being used: Human Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8 1: Beguiler 1: Sculpt Spell, Transdimensional Spell 2: Beguiler 2 3: Beguiler 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4: Beguiler 4 5: Beguiler 5: Silent Spell 6: Unseen Seer 1: Arcane Disciple(?) 7: Beguiler 6 8: Beguiler 7 9: Beguiler 8: Arcane Disciple(?) 10: Unseen Seer 2 11: Beguiler 9 12: Beguiler 10: Arcane Disciple(?), Still Spell 13: Beguiler 11 14: Beguiler 12 15: Beguiler 13: Who knows
Timlagor 03-02-07, 02:10 PM	I find your retraining shenanigans disturbing. It's certainly arguable that you'd have to remove the first Arcane Disciple before you could do it. I'm not going to claim it's actually illegal but it's certainly dodgy.
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 02:18 PM	I find your retraining shenanigans disturbing. It's certainly arguable that you'd have to remove the first Arcane Disciple before you could do it. I'm not going to claim it's actually illegal but it's certainly dodgy. Um... I did remove the first Arcane Disciple level?
Lupo 03-02-07, 02:33 PM	my problem with the whole "retraining frenzy" is that obviously some people develop the most complicated schemes to collect all the cherries on the way ;) while the idea behind retraining seems to get rid of "wrong choices", the in-out-in into certain feats looks like slight abuse. one trains something away because it was more hindering then beneficial to the character, two levels later one selects the same thing again, so it wasn't bad at all. maybe there should be a ruling that one cannot take a feat again that one once had, at least that would be my reaction in a home campaign towards this "all around the houses" tactics. ciao martin m.
Mattastrophic 03-02-07, 02:42 PM	You guys have brought up a pet peeve of mine. Retraining is available. We can all use it. It is everyone's personal choice whether to use it or not. If you think it's cheesy, then don't do it, but don't tell the rest of us what we can or cannot do within the rules. That's all. MWaO: Perhaps an offensive domain might be something to consider? Also, good job in taking the initiative toward integrating retraining into LG character building. -Matt
nobodez 03-02-07, 02:44 PM	I personally don't have a problem with the whole in-out-in idea, at least in this instance, since it's just making the character work within the framework. For instance, the skill point retaining doesn't acrually remove any skill ranks, it just moves them around, and once the ranks are moves around, there's no reason for the well read, which means that it can be used for something else. Personally, I think it's a rather nice idea, since the character isn't changing the rule piece, just the source.
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 02:54 PM	my problem with the whole "retraining frenzy" is that obviously some people develop the most complicated schemes to collect all the cherries on the way ;) While there are definitely some abusive retraining options, I think you're confusing complicated with abusive here. The only real advantage retraining gives me here is character concept and I'm paying 12 TUs and 2100 gold for the privilege. I'm giving up Sculpt Spell from levels 4-7 for Well-Read...I could just take both Transdimensional Spell and Sculpt Spell at 1st level without any retraining whatsoever and be more powerful from 4th-15th level(as I wouldn't have spent any cash to retrain)
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 03:07 PM	MWaO: Perhaps an offensive domain might be something to consider? Also, good job in taking the initiative toward integrating retraining into LG character building. -Matt Thanks! Actually Purification, Sun, Windstorm, and Good all have some pretty nice offensive options... Heat Metal, Searing Light, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, Sun Beam, Holy Smite, Blade Barrier, Holy Word, Fires of Purity, and Castigate are all fun. Community isn't that offensive, but it does give him the ability to cast Heroes Feast at 12th among some other solid buff options.
Lupo 03-02-07, 03:49 PM	You guys have brought up a pet peeve of mine. Retraining is available. We can all use it. It is everyone's personal choice whether to use it or not. If you think it's cheesy, then don't do it, but don't tell the rest of us what we can or cannot do within the rules. That's all. MWaO: Perhaps an offensive domain might be something to consider? Also, good job in taking the initiative toward integrating retraining into LG character building. -Matt yea, it is available, and i am not sure that i like the impact it has on living greyhawk, so i am posting my concerns here ;). on the pro side: it offers a tool to smoothen out "dents" and "faults" in characters that a player might have made due to lack of experience or due to changes in the D&D rulings. it also offers an addition of flexibility to some otherwise very straight-jacketed classes like sorcerers etc. it is especially nice for "new players", they can start a character with the PHB - and play it up to level 3 or 4 - without loosing all options to switch into some of the more complicated prestige classes later. the con side: it opened a can of worms for cheesing out the maximum. any player can claim "hey it was done with "retraining"" and it takes an hour or more to find out whether he did it right or wrong if it is possible at all, as the campaign hasn't yet installed a proper paperwork for retraining documentation. what to do with "illegal" builds at a table? as a dm i would most probably decline the character altogether and therefore penalize the other players at the table. ciao martin m.
Sieylianna 03-02-07, 04:57 PM	ON the con side, if the Circle sees a lot of abuse of retraining, it's going to get closed. I'd hate for people to lose the ability to adjust their characters due to a handful of highly publicized abuses. Ed
Zanzibax 03-02-07, 05:21 PM	You guys have brought up a pet peeve of mine. Retraining is available. We can all use it. It is everyone's personal choice whether to use it or not. If you think it's cheesy, then don't do it, but don't tell the rest of us what we can or cannot do within the rules. That's all. MWaO: Perhaps an offensive domain might be something to consider? Also, good job in taking the initiative toward integrating retraining into LG character building. -Matt Offensive domains: Nit-picking, Politics, Hypocrisy, Patronizing :D
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 05:48 PM	it opened a can of worms for cheesing out the maximum. any player can claim "hey it was done with "retraining"" and it takes an hour or more to find out whether he did it right or wrong if it is possible at all, as the campaign hasn't yet installed a proper paperwork for retraining documentation. It honestly shouldn't be that big of a deal - you look at the build in front of you. If someone has too many feats that have prereqs and not enough low level ones, you know they did something wrong. They also have to tell you which feat is their current 1st level feat. At worst, someone does something fast with skills - that isn't that hard to figure out either as they needed to have it as class skill before doing anything with it. And they're probably not doing anything with skills that couldn't be done anyway. As an example, a Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1 is perfectly possible without retraining - it just means having a human with an 18 Int or a Grey elf with a 20 Int...
Alpha_Nerd 03-02-07, 05:56 PM	Doesn't Arcane Disciple only let you cast 1 of each spell level from the Domain each day?
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 06:41 PM	Doesn't Arcane Disciple only let you cast 1 of each spell level from the Domain each day? Yes, unless you do something funky with arcane prep and pearls of power. Most of the time, he sticks to his Beguiler tricks, but other times, he'll pull weird things out of his hat.
Timlagor 03-02-07, 10:00 PM	Um... I did remove the first Arcane Disciple level? Oops so you did :)