Favored Soul of Tsolorandril - Free Exotic Proficiency? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Favored Soul of Tsolorandril - Free Exotic Proficiency? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jon_the_Cynic
07-19-07, 07:51 PM I'm sure this has been asked before, but it seems slightly overpowered so I thought I'd better make sure:

The description of Favored Soul from Complete Divine says "Favored souls are proficient with all simple weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). A favored soul is also proficient with her deity's favored weapon."

Does this mean a Favored Soul of Tsolorandril gets free proficiency with a Spiked Chain? The quote above mentions nothing of the proficiency being only martial, unlike the War domain.

I saw a 2-year-old archive post that implied you did in fact get the exotic proficiency. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-482719.html

If this indeed does work, I could use some feat ideas. My build would be human, straight FS up through 12, with Concentration, Heal, and Diplomacy maxed.

16 str
10 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
15 cha

Feats:
1. Power Attack (yes I know I can't use it yet)
Augment Healing
3. Heavy Armor Proficiency (would retrain if I gained access to mithral full plate)
6. CWI
9. ??
12. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
15. ??

I am considering doing 14 str/14 dex and getting combat reflexes. I'm not really going for tripping, just a flexible reach weapon.
CdrcJsn
07-19-07, 08:35 PM Yes they get free proficiency.

Considering you don't have a feat chosen for some of your levels, you might want to consider just going cleric and moving some feats around and take exotic weapon proficiency(spiked chain) at 3rd.

Cleric is a lot better than Favored Soul for a fighting divine type because eventually you'll be able to quicken things and actions are important at higher levels. Consider the effect of a quickened Divine Favor at 9th+ level (+3/+3 trumps weapon spec.), which you can usually have up for every single fight. Or Shield of Faith.

You'll also get domains and turning ability which can be used to fuel a variety of divine feats (Divine Might, Devotion feats if they become LG legal).
Jon_the_Cynic
07-19-07, 09:45 PM I appreciate that a Cleric would probably be better overall, but I am leaning towards Favored Soul on this because I have not enjoyed Clerics in the past - I'm not a fan of prepared casters, even with spontaneous curing.

If I were dead set on FS, what feats would you recommend other than Combat Reflexes?
retro
07-19-07, 10:02 PM Does this mean a Favored Soul of Tsolorandril gets free proficiency with a Spiked Chain? Yes. This is why at least half of all PC Favored Souls are followers of Tsolorandril.
Ralis
07-20-07, 12:19 AM Skip the heavy armor proficency. I suggest either taking a level of fighter to get it, or simply gettting by with a breast plate until you get access to the mithril full plate. (which isn't that hard)

For your first level feats, Take combat expertise and improved trip.
Jon_the_Cynic
07-20-07, 01:20 AM If I took expertise and imp trip, I'd be using 5 of 6 stats, which feels like it's spread pretty thin to me.

Am I wasting my time if I don't trip, disarm, or finesse the chain? Seems like it would be good for the reach alone - enemy deterrant, and damage through AOps.

My other thought was to swing around a falchion or scythe (modifying the build to have 16 str, 10 dex, and no combat reflexes). Would one of these be better than chain + reflexes without finesse or tripping? If so, please explain.
Banor
07-20-07, 01:41 AM You can live without Dex and Wis as a FS, you will need only 13 int so its not that bad. Just make sure that you got a good Str and a decent Charisma and Con (14 would be plenty imo, with a +4 Charisma cloak you will be casting your best spells) for your spells.
My guess is to get a level or 2 of fighter to give you some feats for Expertise and Disarm, they are nice to have, even if you are going full caster i'd suggest to keep them in mind
Jon_the_Cynic
07-20-07, 09:37 AM Taking any non-FS levels before 12 delays my acquisition of Melee Weapon Mastery to 15 (unless I take ANOTHER fighter level after I get FS Weapon Spec, and then I lose a level of casting).

I would need dex if I wanted Combat Reflexes, which I think many chain-wielders recommend. I don't think my tripping and disarming would really be up to par until I started popping both Divine Power and Righteous Might. Until then, my int isn't doing much for me.
Cainin
07-20-07, 10:05 AM Don't low ball tripping. Unless you're going against a creature of a larger size category than you, having Improved Trip should put you at the higher modifier.

The goal is to get a simple Enlarge person for tripping (or Righteous Might later on). If you have a friend mem the spell or buy potions, then you're golden.

Considering a ST 14 build, your Trip modifier would be +11 when Enlarged (3 ST, 4 feat, 4 size). Even going up against a ST 16 fighter, you've clearly got him beat for favorable odds.

Though I must admit that Combat Expertise won't really do that much for you.
copper_wyrmling
07-20-07, 10:28 AM Don't low ball tripping. Unless you're going against a creature of a larger size category than you, having Improved Trip should put you at the higher modifier.

The goal is to get a simple Enlarge person for tripping (or Righteous Might later on). If you have a friend mem the spell or buy potions, then you're golden.

Considering a ST 14 build, your Trip modifier would be +11 when Enlarged (3 ST, 4 feat, 4 size). Even going up against a ST 16 fighter, you've clearly got him beat for favorable odds.

Though I must admit that Combat Expertise won't really do that much for you.

The problem is that you don't (often) go up against Str-16 fighters, you go up against monsters who often have at least 2/3 of big racial bonuses to Str, Large size and more than two legs. Trip is great when it works, but when it fails, you just wasted an attack (and at low levels, that means you just wasted a round) and gave them a free chance to make you prone.

Combat Reflexes is nice with a chain. Taking Rapid Metamagic at 9th and retraining an earlier feat to Quicken Spell at L10-12 (depending on whether you think you'll burn L5 slots into Quicken when they're your top tier) would let you throw those highly desirable quickened buffs.

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14

L1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
L3: Augment Healing, retrain to Quicken Spell at L10-12
L6: Craft Wondrous Item
L9: Rapid Metamagic
L12: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)

Something like that? Or keep Augment Healing and lose Combat Reflexes, depending on which you feel you use more once you get to that stage.
delewobmesid
07-20-07, 10:37 AM I mutted my favored soul with fighter and have regretted it ever since; as a favored soul, you are a support caster; augmented healing is nice and keep the end game in mind; no wisdom is fine; don't waste a feat on heavy armor prof; whatever you decide, don't give up any caster level; you need full caster progression.
Maesto
07-20-07, 11:08 AM I had a go at making something like this before...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823489

I ended up going human, strength 17 + 3 bumps, power attack, empower, craft wondrous, quicken, rapid, mastery, x@15. Same build works well taking combat reflexes instead of empower and using Tsolo.

However, any PC with Tsolo as a deity should be burnt at the stake. And yes, I'm referring to the character sheets. Bad you for suggesting it!
Jon_the_Cynic
07-20-07, 01:52 PM Ok, here's the build as it looks now:

Favored Soul of Tsolorandril 1-15
Stats: 14/14/14/10/8/15
Skills: Max Concentration, Max Heal, 12 Spellcraft, rest into Diplomacy
Feats:
1. Combat Reflexes, Augment Healing
3. Power Attack
6. Some Metamagic Feat
9. Rapid Metamagic
(at 10 or 12 I retrain previous metamagic to Quicken Spell)
12. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
15. (like I'll ever get this high)
TetsujinOni
07-20-07, 03:16 PM Ok, here's the build as it looks now:

Favored Soul of Tsolorandril 1-15
Stats: 14/14/14/10/8/15
Skills: Max Concentration, Max Heal, 12 Spellcraft, rest into Diplomacy
Feats:
9. Rapid Metamagic

Applying metamagic to spont caster spells makes them a full-round action (not 1 round cast time, full round action), so quicken is pretty questionable in this build unless you're going to take the Preparation feat. I don't have a book in front of me, but I think that's Arcane only...

From the SRD
Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
bitznarf
07-20-07, 03:22 PM You're confusing Rapid Metamagic with Rapid Spell. Rapid Metamagic removes the full round action penalty that spontaneous casters deal with when using metamagic.
thorinXXX
07-20-07, 03:23 PM A caster with a 2-handed weapon is going to run into problems. Unless you have Quickdraw or a lenient DM you may not have a ready weapon ofter you cast. This is the same problem that many weapon and heavy shield casters run into.
ShinAkuma2
07-20-07, 03:32 PM Am I wasting my time if I don't trip, disarm, or finesse the chain? Seems like it would be good for the reach alone - enemy deterrant, and damage through AOps.

If you're not going to take advantage of any of those abilities, you may as well use any other reach weapon, like a ranseur or guisarme, paired with Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlets for when you absolutely cannot move to use your reach attack. This, at least, saves you a feat, and those weapons have better crit modifiers.
TWG_Prometheus
07-20-07, 04:31 PM You're confusing Rapid Metamagic with Rapid Spell. Rapid Metamagic removes the full round action penalty that spontaneous casters deal with when using metamagic.

Yeah, the feat and skill requirements are stiff, but Favored Soul is one of my favorite Battle Cleric builds using only Open sources. Rapid Metamagic is at the core of the Favored Soul build, allowing them to Quicken...you know...whatever they feel like.

For the original poster, I'd consider moving the Charisma back down to 14. You don't need Charisma for saving throws, only for casting requirements and bonus spells. Either one of two paths seems better to me:

16 Strength, 12 Dex, and 14 Charisma - all stat bumps go to Charisma to hit a base 17 Charisma by level 14...that's all you'll ever REALLY need.

OR

14 Charisma & whatever other stats - no stat bumps to Charisma and depend on getting a Cloak of Charisma +2 by level 10/Cloak of Charisma +4 by level 14.

Out of all the casting classes, Favored Souls need the least investment into their casting attributes because there is very little incentive to push the stats higher. The Weapon Specialization tends to shove them toward battle cleric builds, meaning they won't generally even try for saving throw spells, and they get plenty of spells making heavy stat investment for bonus spells unattractive.
Jon_the_Cynic
07-20-07, 07:32 PM A caster with a 2-handed weapon is going to run into problems. Unless you have Quickdraw or a lenient DM you may not have a ready weapon ofter you cast. This is the same problem that many weapon and heavy shield casters run into.

I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point.

We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items.

If you're not going to take advantage of any of those abilities, you may as well use any other reach weapon, like a ranseur or guisarme, paired with Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlets for when you absolutely cannot move to use your reach attack. This, at least, saves you a feat, and those weapons have better crit modifiers.

Unfortunately there are no PC-accessible deities with favored reach weapons other than Spear and Spiked Chain. :(

For the original poster, I'd consider moving the Charisma back down to 14. You don't need Charisma for saving throws, only for casting requirements and bonus spells. Either one of two paths seems better to me:

16 Strength, 12 Dex, and 14 Charisma - all stat bumps go to Charisma to hit a base 17 Charisma by level 14...that's all you'll ever REALLY need.

OR

14 Charisma & whatever other stats - no stat bumps to Charisma and depend on getting a Cloak of Charisma +2 by level 10/Cloak of Charisma +4 by level 14.

Out of all the casting classes, Favored Souls need the least investment into their casting attributes because there is very little incentive to push the stats higher. The Weapon Specialization tends to shove them toward battle cleric builds, meaning they won't generally even try for saving throw spells, and they get plenty of spells making heavy stat investment for bonus spells unattractive.

Thanks, I will definitely consider this. I do dislike having less than 16 str on a melee person.
thorinXXX
07-21-07, 02:44 PM I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point.

We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items.

The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it.
Jon_the_Cynic
07-21-07, 02:47 PM I ended up deciding to go back to 14/14/14/10/8/15. 16 str is good, but I didn't think it was worth losing bonus spell progression, diplomacy, and the benefits of dex.

I also will be going max concentration, 12 spellcraft, 4 heal, and the rest into diplomacy. I would go the max heal/healing lorecall route if my caster stat was wisdom, but alas, it is not.

Feats are as follows:

1. Augment Healing
Combat Reflexes
3. Power Attack
6. Reach Spell, Empower Spell, or Improved Toughness
9. Rapid Metamagic
(retrain 6th feat for Quicken at 10 or 12)
12. Melee Weapon Mastery - Piercing
15. :confused:
Maesto
07-21-07, 02:50 PM Spiked chain is a (unfortunately) solid choice for a reach weapon, even if you're not using it to it's fullest ability. If you're getting proficiency for free, followed by focus, spec, and then mastery (yeah, you pay for that one though), why not?

Statwise, favoured souls need very little charisma. Just enough to cast their spells really - they get so damn many of them, the bonus spells are fairly meaningless. I'd advocate starting with charisma 13 and getting a +4 cloak: that's all the charisma you'll ever need. I like then starting with strength 17, but you need to pay for it somewhere else also. Strength 15 at the very least. You may as well bump strength thrice. It's worth it. Low strength melee fighter builds don't do much damage. Unfortunate but true =(
Jon_the_Cynic
07-21-07, 02:51 PM The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it.

Though my experience is undoubtedly more limited than yours, I've never heard of a DM doing that.

Do these DMs allow you to put your hand back on the weapon as part of a move if you have BAB 1 or higher?
Jon_the_Cynic
07-21-07, 03:05 PM Spiked chain is a (unfortunately) solid choice for a reach weapon, even if you're not using it to it's fullest ability. If you're getting proficiency for free, followed by focus, spec, and then mastery (yeah, you pay for that one though), why not?

Statwise, favoured souls need very little charisma. Just enough to cast their spells really - they get so damn many of them, the bonus spells are fairly meaningless. I'd advocate starting with charisma 13 and getting a +4 cloak: that's all the charisma you'll ever need. I like then starting with strength 17, but you need to pay for it somewhere else also. Strength 15 at the very least. You may as well bump strength thrice. It's worth it. Low strength melee fighter builds don't do much damage. Unfortunate but true =(

Unless doing so utterly screws me over, there are 2 principles I like to follow when designing characters:
1. Buy enough stats to have (with bumps of course) all requirements for feats/spells/etc without items.
2. Buy stats planning to get highest level spells (after bumps) as if my build were extended to level 20.
I know both of these will keep me from having the perfectly optimized character for Living Greyhawk in some cases, but the first keeps me from getting screwed due to item destruction/loss, and I feel the second better adheres to the spirit of the game.
thorinXXX
07-21-07, 03:56 PM Though my experience is undoubtedly more limited than yours, I've never heard of a DM doing that.

Do these DMs allow you to put your hand back on the weapon as part of a move if you have BAB 1 or higher?

Yup. In all ways it is treated as drawing a weapon.
While I am sure that there are one or two DM's that claim that you need to ready the weapon but it is a different action than drawing, I have never met any.
Sieylianna
07-21-07, 06:36 PM The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it.

It's pretty much the same issue (pre-elvencraft bows) as taking one hand off your bow to threaten with a spiked gauntlet. Some judges will let you ready the bow to shoot and then unready it in the same round, but some don't.

Ed
Iswald
07-23-07, 10:20 AM I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point.

We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items.

Judges where I play never ask about my cleric having a hand free to cast when he uses his glaive. He does have quick draw just in case (though it's been handy when changing weapons). I would think though, that a spiked chain is more like using a shield and weapon and would require both hands, than it is like holding a stick and letting go for a bit with one hand. If you let go of the chain with one hand, is it going to stay in place?

Alternatively, there is a feat from Complete Mage (Somatic Weaponry) that will allow you to hold a weapon in one or both of your hands while you are performing the somatic component of your spell. This would let you avoid a lot of arguments. But, if you take quick draw, it'll help when you have to let go of your spiked chain to avoid being tripped, assuming you have an extra weapon to draw.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jon_the_Cynic 07-19-07, 07:51 PM	I'm sure this has been asked before, but it seems slightly overpowered so I thought I'd better make sure: The description of Favored Soul from Complete Divine says "Favored souls are proficient with all simple weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). A favored soul is also proficient with her deity's favored weapon." Does this mean a Favored Soul of Tsolorandril gets free proficiency with a Spiked Chain? The quote above mentions nothing of the proficiency being only martial, unlike the War domain. I saw a 2-year-old archive post that implied you did in fact get the exotic proficiency. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-482719.html If this indeed does work, I could use some feat ideas. My build would be human, straight FS up through 12, with Concentration, Heal, and Diplomacy maxed. 16 str 10 dex 14 con 10 int 8 wis 15 cha Feats: 1. Power Attack (yes I know I can't use it yet) Augment Healing 3. Heavy Armor Proficiency (would retrain if I gained access to mithral full plate) 6. CWI 9. ?? 12. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing 15. ?? I am considering doing 14 str/14 dex and getting combat reflexes. I'm not really going for tripping, just a flexible reach weapon.
CdrcJsn 07-19-07, 08:35 PM	Yes they get free proficiency. Considering you don't have a feat chosen for some of your levels, you might want to consider just going cleric and moving some feats around and take exotic weapon proficiency(spiked chain) at 3rd. Cleric is a lot better than Favored Soul for a fighting divine type because eventually you'll be able to quicken things and actions are important at higher levels. Consider the effect of a quickened Divine Favor at 9th+ level (+3/+3 trumps weapon spec.), which you can usually have up for every single fight. Or Shield of Faith. You'll also get domains and turning ability which can be used to fuel a variety of divine feats (Divine Might, Devotion feats if they become LG legal).
Jon_the_Cynic 07-19-07, 09:45 PM	I appreciate that a Cleric would probably be better overall, but I am leaning towards Favored Soul on this because I have not enjoyed Clerics in the past - I'm not a fan of prepared casters, even with spontaneous curing. If I were dead set on FS, what feats would you recommend other than Combat Reflexes?
retro 07-19-07, 10:02 PM	Does this mean a Favored Soul of Tsolorandril gets free proficiency with a Spiked Chain? Yes. This is why at least half of all PC Favored Souls are followers of Tsolorandril.
Ralis 07-20-07, 12:19 AM	Skip the heavy armor proficency. I suggest either taking a level of fighter to get it, or simply gettting by with a breast plate until you get access to the mithril full plate. (which isn't that hard) For your first level feats, Take combat expertise and improved trip.
Jon_the_Cynic 07-20-07, 01:20 AM	If I took expertise and imp trip, I'd be using 5 of 6 stats, which feels like it's spread pretty thin to me. Am I wasting my time if I don't trip, disarm, or finesse the chain? Seems like it would be good for the reach alone - enemy deterrant, and damage through AOps. My other thought was to swing around a falchion or scythe (modifying the build to have 16 str, 10 dex, and no combat reflexes). Would one of these be better than chain + reflexes without finesse or tripping? If so, please explain.
Banor 07-20-07, 01:41 AM	You can live without Dex and Wis as a FS, you will need only 13 int so its not that bad. Just make sure that you got a good Str and a decent Charisma and Con (14 would be plenty imo, with a +4 Charisma cloak you will be casting your best spells) for your spells. My guess is to get a level or 2 of fighter to give you some feats for Expertise and Disarm, they are nice to have, even if you are going full caster i'd suggest to keep them in mind
Jon_the_Cynic 07-20-07, 09:37 AM	Taking any non-FS levels before 12 delays my acquisition of Melee Weapon Mastery to 15 (unless I take ANOTHER fighter level after I get FS Weapon Spec, and then I lose a level of casting). I would need dex if I wanted Combat Reflexes, which I think many chain-wielders recommend. I don't think my tripping and disarming would really be up to par until I started popping both Divine Power and Righteous Might. Until then, my int isn't doing much for me.
Cainin 07-20-07, 10:05 AM	Don't low ball tripping. Unless you're going against a creature of a larger size category than you, having Improved Trip should put you at the higher modifier. The goal is to get a simple Enlarge person for tripping (or Righteous Might later on). If you have a friend mem the spell or buy potions, then you're golden. Considering a ST 14 build, your Trip modifier would be +11 when Enlarged (3 ST, 4 feat, 4 size). Even going up against a ST 16 fighter, you've clearly got him beat for favorable odds. Though I must admit that Combat Expertise won't really do that much for you.
copper_wyrmling 07-20-07, 10:28 AM	Don't low ball tripping. Unless you're going against a creature of a larger size category than you, having Improved Trip should put you at the higher modifier. The goal is to get a simple Enlarge person for tripping (or Righteous Might later on). If you have a friend mem the spell or buy potions, then you're golden. Considering a ST 14 build, your Trip modifier would be +11 when Enlarged (3 ST, 4 feat, 4 size). Even going up against a ST 16 fighter, you've clearly got him beat for favorable odds. Though I must admit that Combat Expertise won't really do that much for you. The problem is that you don't (often) go up against Str-16 fighters, you go up against monsters who often have at least 2/3 of big racial bonuses to Str, Large size and more than two legs. Trip is great when it works, but when it fails, you just wasted an attack (and at low levels, that means you just wasted a round) and gave them a free chance to make you prone. Combat Reflexes is nice with a chain. Taking Rapid Metamagic at 9th and retraining an earlier feat to Quicken Spell at L10-12 (depending on whether you think you'll burn L5 slots into Quicken when they're your top tier) would let you throw those highly desirable quickened buffs. Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14 L1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes L3: Augment Healing, retrain to Quicken Spell at L10-12 L6: Craft Wondrous Item L9: Rapid Metamagic L12: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) Something like that? Or keep Augment Healing and lose Combat Reflexes, depending on which you feel you use more once you get to that stage.
delewobmesid 07-20-07, 10:37 AM	I mutted my favored soul with fighter and have regretted it ever since; as a favored soul, you are a support caster; augmented healing is nice and keep the end game in mind; no wisdom is fine; don't waste a feat on heavy armor prof; whatever you decide, don't give up any caster level; you need full caster progression.
Maesto 07-20-07, 11:08 AM	I had a go at making something like this before... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823489 I ended up going human, strength 17 + 3 bumps, power attack, empower, craft wondrous, quicken, rapid, mastery, x@15. Same build works well taking combat reflexes instead of empower and using Tsolo. However, any PC with Tsolo as a deity should be burnt at the stake. And yes, I'm referring to the character sheets. Bad you for suggesting it!
Jon_the_Cynic 07-20-07, 01:52 PM	Ok, here's the build as it looks now: Favored Soul of Tsolorandril 1-15 Stats: 14/14/14/10/8/15 Skills: Max Concentration, Max Heal, 12 Spellcraft, rest into Diplomacy Feats: 1. Combat Reflexes, Augment Healing 3. Power Attack 6. Some Metamagic Feat 9. Rapid Metamagic (at 10 or 12 I retrain previous metamagic to Quicken Spell) 12. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing 15. (like I'll ever get this high)
TetsujinOni 07-20-07, 03:16 PM	Ok, here's the build as it looks now: Favored Soul of Tsolorandril 1-15 Stats: 14/14/14/10/8/15 Skills: Max Concentration, Max Heal, 12 Spellcraft, rest into Diplomacy Feats: 9. Rapid Metamagic Applying metamagic to spont caster spells makes them a full-round action (not 1 round cast time, full round action), so quicken is pretty questionable in this build unless you're going to take the Preparation feat. I don't have a book in front of me, but I think that's Arcane only... From the SRD Quicken Spell [Metamagic] Benefit Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Special This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
bitznarf 07-20-07, 03:22 PM	You're confusing Rapid Metamagic with Rapid Spell. Rapid Metamagic removes the full round action penalty that spontaneous casters deal with when using metamagic.
thorinXXX 07-20-07, 03:23 PM	A caster with a 2-handed weapon is going to run into problems. Unless you have Quickdraw or a lenient DM you may not have a ready weapon ofter you cast. This is the same problem that many weapon and heavy shield casters run into.
ShinAkuma2 07-20-07, 03:32 PM	Am I wasting my time if I don't trip, disarm, or finesse the chain? Seems like it would be good for the reach alone - enemy deterrant, and damage through AOps. If you're not going to take advantage of any of those abilities, you may as well use any other reach weapon, like a ranseur or guisarme, paired with Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlets for when you absolutely cannot move to use your reach attack. This, at least, saves you a feat, and those weapons have better crit modifiers.
TWG_Prometheus 07-20-07, 04:31 PM	You're confusing Rapid Metamagic with Rapid Spell. Rapid Metamagic removes the full round action penalty that spontaneous casters deal with when using metamagic. Yeah, the feat and skill requirements are stiff, but Favored Soul is one of my favorite Battle Cleric builds using only Open sources. Rapid Metamagic is at the core of the Favored Soul build, allowing them to Quicken...you know...whatever they feel like. For the original poster, I'd consider moving the Charisma back down to 14. You don't need Charisma for saving throws, only for casting requirements and bonus spells. Either one of two paths seems better to me: 16 Strength, 12 Dex, and 14 Charisma - all stat bumps go to Charisma to hit a base 17 Charisma by level 14...that's all you'll ever REALLY need. OR 14 Charisma & whatever other stats - no stat bumps to Charisma and depend on getting a Cloak of Charisma +2 by level 10/Cloak of Charisma +4 by level 14. Out of all the casting classes, Favored Souls need the least investment into their casting attributes because there is very little incentive to push the stats higher. The Weapon Specialization tends to shove them toward battle cleric builds, meaning they won't generally even try for saving throw spells, and they get plenty of spells making heavy stat investment for bonus spells unattractive.
Jon_the_Cynic 07-20-07, 07:32 PM	A caster with a 2-handed weapon is going to run into problems. Unless you have Quickdraw or a lenient DM you may not have a ready weapon ofter you cast. This is the same problem that many weapon and heavy shield casters run into. I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point. We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items. If you're not going to take advantage of any of those abilities, you may as well use any other reach weapon, like a ranseur or guisarme, paired with Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlets for when you absolutely cannot move to use your reach attack. This, at least, saves you a feat, and those weapons have better crit modifiers. Unfortunately there are no PC-accessible deities with favored reach weapons other than Spear and Spiked Chain. :( For the original poster, I'd consider moving the Charisma back down to 14. You don't need Charisma for saving throws, only for casting requirements and bonus spells. Either one of two paths seems better to me: 16 Strength, 12 Dex, and 14 Charisma - all stat bumps go to Charisma to hit a base 17 Charisma by level 14...that's all you'll ever REALLY need. OR 14 Charisma & whatever other stats - no stat bumps to Charisma and depend on getting a Cloak of Charisma +2 by level 10/Cloak of Charisma +4 by level 14. Out of all the casting classes, Favored Souls need the least investment into their casting attributes because there is very little incentive to push the stats higher. The Weapon Specialization tends to shove them toward battle cleric builds, meaning they won't generally even try for saving throw spells, and they get plenty of spells making heavy stat investment for bonus spells unattractive. Thanks, I will definitely consider this. I do dislike having less than 16 str on a melee person.
thorinXXX 07-21-07, 02:44 PM	I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point. We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items. The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it.
Jon_the_Cynic 07-21-07, 02:47 PM	I ended up deciding to go back to 14/14/14/10/8/15. 16 str is good, but I didn't think it was worth losing bonus spell progression, diplomacy, and the benefits of dex. I also will be going max concentration, 12 spellcraft, 4 heal, and the rest into diplomacy. I would go the max heal/healing lorecall route if my caster stat was wisdom, but alas, it is not. Feats are as follows: 1. Augment Healing Combat Reflexes 3. Power Attack 6. Reach Spell, Empower Spell, or Improved Toughness 9. Rapid Metamagic (retrain 6th feat for Quicken at 10 or 12) 12. Melee Weapon Mastery - Piercing 15. :confused:
Maesto 07-21-07, 02:50 PM	Spiked chain is a (unfortunately) solid choice for a reach weapon, even if you're not using it to it's fullest ability. If you're getting proficiency for free, followed by focus, spec, and then mastery (yeah, you pay for that one though), why not? Statwise, favoured souls need very little charisma. Just enough to cast their spells really - they get so damn many of them, the bonus spells are fairly meaningless. I'd advocate starting with charisma 13 and getting a +4 cloak: that's all the charisma you'll ever need. I like then starting with strength 17, but you need to pay for it somewhere else also. Strength 15 at the very least. You may as well bump strength thrice. It's worth it. Low strength melee fighter builds don't do much damage. Unfortunate but true =(
Jon_the_Cynic 07-21-07, 02:51 PM	The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it. Though my experience is undoubtedly more limited than yours, I've never heard of a DM doing that. Do these DMs allow you to put your hand back on the weapon as part of a move if you have BAB 1 or higher?
Jon_the_Cynic 07-21-07, 03:05 PM	Spiked chain is a (unfortunately) solid choice for a reach weapon, even if you're not using it to it's fullest ability. If you're getting proficiency for free, followed by focus, spec, and then mastery (yeah, you pay for that one though), why not? Statwise, favoured souls need very little charisma. Just enough to cast their spells really - they get so damn many of them, the bonus spells are fairly meaningless. I'd advocate starting with charisma 13 and getting a +4 cloak: that's all the charisma you'll ever need. I like then starting with strength 17, but you need to pay for it somewhere else also. Strength 15 at the very least. You may as well bump strength thrice. It's worth it. Low strength melee fighter builds don't do much damage. Unfortunate but true =( Unless doing so utterly screws me over, there are 2 principles I like to follow when designing characters: 1. Buy enough stats to have (with bumps of course) all requirements for feats/spells/etc without items. 2. Buy stats planning to get highest level spells (after bumps) as if my build were extended to level 20. I know both of these will keep me from having the perfectly optimized character for Living Greyhawk in some cases, but the first keeps me from getting screwed due to item destruction/loss, and I feel the second better adheres to the spirit of the game.
thorinXXX 07-21-07, 03:56 PM	Though my experience is undoubtedly more limited than yours, I've never heard of a DM doing that. Do these DMs allow you to put your hand back on the weapon as part of a move if you have BAB 1 or higher? Yup. In all ways it is treated as drawing a weapon. While I am sure that there are one or two DM's that claim that you need to ready the weapon but it is a different action than drawing, I have never met any.
Sieylianna 07-21-07, 06:36 PM	The most common ruling, in my experience, is that putting that second hand back on the weapon is equivalent to drawing the weapon. Some DM's let it go as a free action, but most do not. I was simply pointing this out so that you do not get blindsided by it. It's pretty much the same issue (pre-elvencraft bows) as taking one hand off your bow to threaten with a spiked gauntlet. Some judges will let you ready the bow to shoot and then unready it in the same round, but some don't. Ed
Iswald 07-23-07, 10:20 AM	I don't see why... I'm sure a person can hold up a two-handed weapon with one hand for 6 seconds or less while making gestures with the other hand. The people I usually play with agree on this point. We think it's different for a heavy shield and 1h weapon because both hands must actually grasp these items. Judges where I play never ask about my cleric having a hand free to cast when he uses his glaive. He does have quick draw just in case (though it's been handy when changing weapons). I would think though, that a spiked chain is more like using a shield and weapon and would require both hands, than it is like holding a stick and letting go for a bit with one hand. If you let go of the chain with one hand, is it going to stay in place? Alternatively, there is a feat from Complete Mage (Somatic Weaponry) that will allow you to hold a weapon in one or both of your hands while you are performing the somatic component of your spell. This would let you avoid a lot of arguments. But, if you take quick draw, it'll help when you have to let go of your spiked chain to avoid being tripped, assuming you have an extra weapon to draw.