Feat suggestability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat suggestability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ARlife
11-22-06, 02:43 AM Now, one of my newer characters is an attack of opportunity fighter. I was wondering if Hold The Line was worth it as a feat. I was also thinking of Expert Tactician as a feat as well, but I'm not too sure. What does everyone think?
Cynric
11-22-06, 03:18 AM The first thing I have to say is How often do monsters cause AOO's in your region. Personally they do not do it much in my area (could be a GM thing).

Secondly, what weapon are you planning on using. My suggestion ( and I do not like the weapon) is Spiked Chain. If you get combat reflexes, imp trip power attack and hold the line, you should provoke AOO's in most combats if the opponentcharges, or you can try and get access to steadfast boots.

In my opinion, the damage is nice in mid levels, but when you get higher, things outreach you, so no AOO's from movement, and you will find that you want to, as a party, alpha strike everthing, Charge\combat brute\shock trooper etc, while your wizard\cleric hits it with a big save or die\get screwed.

It is effective, but at high levels you will want an enlarge person and most wizards ewill not be wasting the round doing that, so you turn into someone who does limit the opponents manouverability which is good, but make sure you understand that.

Keeep in mind that limiting someones movemnet can be done with a high AC and HP's combined with the dodge\mobility and missed me card. I do it quite regularly to stop opponents from getting out of the charge line of the mounted character who deals the big damage.
ARlife
11-22-06, 04:00 AM Well, the character in question wields a glaive, mainly because that character doesnt trip or anything fancy, he just gets the AOO and power attacks for extra damage. As far as being enlarged goes, potions will work just fine, and I want to make monsters/baddies provoke. So Hold the Line, would help I think. A lot of big monsters tend to charge. And if region helps, its a nyrond character, but he will play a decent amount of Cores as well. So I hope that helps whatever advice people can give me.
UMiskatonic
11-27-06, 04:32 PM Having reach is a great way to make use of hold the line.
I'd take it.

Not so sure about Expert Tactician. Not that it's worthless, but there are other, better options out there.
_m_
11-27-06, 06:03 PM Having reach is a great way to make use of hold the line.
I'd take it.

Not so sure about Expert Tactician. Not that it's worthless, but there are other, better options out there.

like shock trooper, with appropriate support feats.
jstorrie
11-27-06, 10:30 PM Hold the Line is absolutely worth it for a feat, yes. Expert Tactician, not so much. If you are playing a Fighter/Monk mutt, though, and aren't taking Defensive Throw at level 3, Hold the Line is absolutely a no-brainer. Do take it.
_m_
11-27-06, 10:40 PM Hold the Line is absolutely worth it for a feat, yes. Expert Tactician, not so much. If you are playing a Fighter/Monk mutt, though, and aren't taking Defensive Throw at level 3, Hold the Line is absolutely a no-brainer. Do take it.

if you have a reach weapon, you already get an aoo when someone charges you, and since you arent allowed to ahve more than 1 aoo of the same type against the same guy in 1 round (hence 15 foot reach dosent let you aoo twice when they go through), wouldnt combat reflexes be enough? or do you get 2 by virtue of hold the line.

iirc (which i probably dont) hold the line lets you aoo against a charging enemy. but a reach weapon lets you do that anyway.

also, with combat reflexes, do you get 1 aoo, and then one more per +1 dex mod, or do you get 1 aoo, also only 1 if you have +1 dex, 2 for +2 dex etc.
Japangirl
11-27-06, 10:54 PM Hold the Line with a reach weapon would let you get 2 AoOs. One for the reach, one for the Hold the Line feat + charge.

Combat Reflexes gives you one additional AoO per Dex bonus you have. You always start with one, so with a 12 Dex you'd have 2 (1+1), and so on and so forth. You also get to make AoOs while flatfooted, a rather nice benefit.
_m_
11-27-06, 11:15 PM Hold the Line with a reach weapon would let you get 2 AoOs. One for the reach, one for the Hold the Line feat + charge.

Combat Reflexes gives you one additional AoO per Dex bonus you have. You always start with one, so with a 12 Dex you'd have 2 (1+1), and so on and so forth. You also get to make AoOs while flatfooted, a rather nice benefit.

lol, that would have been alot nicer to know last mod i played. i missed half my attacks :D

so readied action to hit, with hold the line, relfexes, and 10 ft reach, would net you 3 attacks when you got charged. thats kind of cool.
DuctShuiTengu
11-27-06, 11:59 PM lol, that would have been alot nicer to know last mod i played. i missed half my attacks :D

so readied action to hit, with hold the line, relfexes, and 10 ft reach, would net you 3 attacks when you got charged. thats kind of cool.

One quick question on this: assuming the weapon in question were a longspear or one of the other weapons that deals double damage against charging enemies, would that be just the Readied attack, or all three?
Britt
11-28-06, 12:28 AM The way it is worded, they would all deal double damage. However, it seems to imply that only the readied attack was intended. Expect table variation.
Mommy was an Orc
11-28-06, 01:06 AM The way it is worded, they would all deal double damage. However, it seems to imply that only the readied attack was intended. Expect table variation.

Hmm...I'd disagree with that - the readied action goes off before the AoOs, at which point you're no longer readied against the charge.
Britt
11-28-06, 01:19 AM "If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character."

You would have used a ready action to set a longspear against a charge and hits on the AoO from movement and Hold the Line would be successful hits against a charging character, so you would fulfill the requirements of the feat. This is a literal reading, and I think the intent is different, but a textual interpretation says they would all deal double damage.
Mommy was an Orc
11-28-06, 09:00 AM "If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character."

You would have used a ready action to set a longspear against a charge and hits on the AoO from movement and Hold the Line would be successful hits against a charging character, so you would fulfill the requirements of the feat. This is a literal reading, and I think the intent is different, but a textual interpretation says they would all deal double damage.

That's not working through the action correctly on RAW basis IMO - here's how I look at it:
I ready my action.
Opponent charges.
Readied Action goes off. I'm readied, so I do double damage.
Movement AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage.
Hold the Line AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage.
2nd Opponent charges.
Movement AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage.
Hold the Line AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage.

Once you complete the ready action by the use of the 1st attack, you're no longer in the state of 'use a ready action'.
Britt
11-28-06, 09:23 AM I agree that is how it should work, but not that that is what the text says. The language for what you describe would be something like "if you are readied". An analogy using the same structure would be:

"If you murder someone, you are punished with X."

That would mean that if you murder someone and get caught later, it doesn't matter what your current state of murdering someone is, you did it in the past; but, the second clause still applies. A law like the above clearly does not mean "if you are murdering someone"; there is a distinct difference between those phrases. The phrases in the hypothetical and the D&D rule do not contain anything to link the two clauses temporally.

Heck, a strict reading of the text, if you didn't know D&D at all or what the words really meant, would justify the interpretation that if you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge in 593, you would still be doing double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. That's obviously outside the intent of the rules, but is what the language indicates if you don't have any insight into the intent. It may be three years later, but you did use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, so you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. Again, that's ridiculous when you consider intent, but linguistically true. So that brings up the question, exactly how much is intended in the phrase? That's unclear and why the OP should expect table variation.
Mommy was an Orc
11-28-06, 10:21 AM I agree that is how it should work, but not that that is what the text says. The language for what you describe would be something like "if you are readied".

And hey, they have just that kind of language on PHB page 160...

Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piecing weapons, setting them to receive charges (see Table 7-5: Weapons, page 116). A readied weapon deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

After you swing with your readied weapon, it is no longer readied. Therefore you unambigiously don't get to do double damage with the AoOs...
Britt
11-28-06, 11:31 AM Yes, that does clarify the intent more. However, being a pedantic butthead, that just says that if readied against a charge, you deal damage, not that you wouldn't continue to deal double damage on the other attacks. That's an overly strict reading, and I think the text you quoted definitely clarifies the intent.
_m_
12-06-06, 10:44 PM Hmm...I'd disagree with that - the readied action goes off before the AoOs, at which point you're no longer readied against the charge.

hold the line, kind of by its own definition, is an automatic ready against a charge. you are quite clearly readying yourself against a charging opponent... preparing to hit them, if you will.

i realise thats flavour reasoning, not raw, but spirit wise...
Mommy was an Orc
12-06-06, 11:18 PM hold the line, kind of by its own definition, is an automatic ready against a charge. you are quite clearly readying yourself against a charging opponent... preparing to hit them, if you will.

i realise thats flavour reasoning, not raw, but spirit wise...

Well, yes and no. First off, it isn't a ready action - you don't get double damage from a longspear for using Hold the Line.

And by your flavor assessment, you're actually in a sense arguing that someone who takes Hold the Line can't Ready to strike someone charging them - as they're already doing that...
_m_
12-06-06, 11:36 PM Well, yes and no. First off, it isn't a ready action - you don't get double damage from a longspear for using Hold the Line.

And by your flavor assessment, you're actually in a sense arguing that someone who takes Hold the Line can't Ready to strike someone charging them - as they're already doing that...

lol. im actually tryong to argue both sides, so that you and britt will continue trading ideas...

kind of like the little girl poking the wasps nest with a stick :D

i just like watching smart people think.
solbergb
12-11-06, 01:05 PM Hold the line greatly increases the number of AOO's you get with combat reflexes especially when you need it most...in the surprise round.

(everyone has to charge in the surprise round...)

I'd estimate of all my Monk's AOO's between level 3 and level 13, roughly half were triggered by hold the line (half of the rest were "exit threaten square" AOO from enlarge or reach weapon or both and the last quarter were a mix of "Stand up" AOO's and "close quarters combat" AOO's). Part of why you get so many is folks aren't that careful about charging into a threantened area, compared to exiting a threatened area.

It's not as good though if you don't do something significant with a single attack. I used those AOO's for grappling, tripping or, more recently, getting a decent whack in with a 2-handed vicious weapon. Most 2H fighters do enough damage even without power attack that it's useful but it's even better if you can use it to get two chances to trip that incoming raging barbarian (hold the line AOO, exiting threatened square AOO) before he can cut you in half.

And if anyone cares, I agree with Andy. You only get double damage if you ready, and only on the readied attack. Barring steadfast boots, which make any attack "readyied vs charge".
LachlarlanIII
12-19-06, 02:54 PM Have you checked Karmic Strike?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ARlife 11-22-06, 02:43 AM	Now, one of my newer characters is an attack of opportunity fighter. I was wondering if Hold The Line was worth it as a feat. I was also thinking of Expert Tactician as a feat as well, but I'm not too sure. What does everyone think?
Cynric 11-22-06, 03:18 AM	The first thing I have to say is How often do monsters cause AOO's in your region. Personally they do not do it much in my area (could be a GM thing). Secondly, what weapon are you planning on using. My suggestion ( and I do not like the weapon) is Spiked Chain. If you get combat reflexes, imp trip power attack and hold the line, you should provoke AOO's in most combats if the opponentcharges, or you can try and get access to steadfast boots. In my opinion, the damage is nice in mid levels, but when you get higher, things outreach you, so no AOO's from movement, and you will find that you want to, as a party, alpha strike everthing, Charge\combat brute\shock trooper etc, while your wizard\cleric hits it with a big save or die\get screwed. It is effective, but at high levels you will want an enlarge person and most wizards ewill not be wasting the round doing that, so you turn into someone who does limit the opponents manouverability which is good, but make sure you understand that. Keeep in mind that limiting someones movemnet can be done with a high AC and HP's combined with the dodge\mobility and missed me card. I do it quite regularly to stop opponents from getting out of the charge line of the mounted character who deals the big damage.
ARlife 11-22-06, 04:00 AM	Well, the character in question wields a glaive, mainly because that character doesnt trip or anything fancy, he just gets the AOO and power attacks for extra damage. As far as being enlarged goes, potions will work just fine, and I want to make monsters/baddies provoke. So Hold the Line, would help I think. A lot of big monsters tend to charge. And if region helps, its a nyrond character, but he will play a decent amount of Cores as well. So I hope that helps whatever advice people can give me.
UMiskatonic 11-27-06, 04:32 PM	Having reach is a great way to make use of hold the line. I'd take it. Not so sure about Expert Tactician. Not that it's worthless, but there are other, better options out there.
_m_ 11-27-06, 06:03 PM	Having reach is a great way to make use of hold the line. I'd take it. Not so sure about Expert Tactician. Not that it's worthless, but there are other, better options out there. like shock trooper, with appropriate support feats.
jstorrie 11-27-06, 10:30 PM	Hold the Line is absolutely worth it for a feat, yes. Expert Tactician, not so much. If you are playing a Fighter/Monk mutt, though, and aren't taking Defensive Throw at level 3, Hold the Line is absolutely a no-brainer. Do take it.
_m_ 11-27-06, 10:40 PM	Hold the Line is absolutely worth it for a feat, yes. Expert Tactician, not so much. If you are playing a Fighter/Monk mutt, though, and aren't taking Defensive Throw at level 3, Hold the Line is absolutely a no-brainer. Do take it. if you have a reach weapon, you already get an aoo when someone charges you, and since you arent allowed to ahve more than 1 aoo of the same type against the same guy in 1 round (hence 15 foot reach dosent let you aoo twice when they go through), wouldnt combat reflexes be enough? or do you get 2 by virtue of hold the line. iirc (which i probably dont) hold the line lets you aoo against a charging enemy. but a reach weapon lets you do that anyway. also, with combat reflexes, do you get 1 aoo, and then one more per +1 dex mod, or do you get 1 aoo, also only 1 if you have +1 dex, 2 for +2 dex etc.
Japangirl 11-27-06, 10:54 PM	Hold the Line with a reach weapon would let you get 2 AoOs. One for the reach, one for the Hold the Line feat + charge. Combat Reflexes gives you one additional AoO per Dex bonus you have. You always start with one, so with a 12 Dex you'd have 2 (1+1), and so on and so forth. You also get to make AoOs while flatfooted, a rather nice benefit.
_m_ 11-27-06, 11:15 PM	Hold the Line with a reach weapon would let you get 2 AoOs. One for the reach, one for the Hold the Line feat + charge. Combat Reflexes gives you one additional AoO per Dex bonus you have. You always start with one, so with a 12 Dex you'd have 2 (1+1), and so on and so forth. You also get to make AoOs while flatfooted, a rather nice benefit. lol, that would have been alot nicer to know last mod i played. i missed half my attacks :D so readied action to hit, with hold the line, relfexes, and 10 ft reach, would net you 3 attacks when you got charged. thats kind of cool.
DuctShuiTengu 11-27-06, 11:59 PM	lol, that would have been alot nicer to know last mod i played. i missed half my attacks :D so readied action to hit, with hold the line, relfexes, and 10 ft reach, would net you 3 attacks when you got charged. thats kind of cool. One quick question on this: assuming the weapon in question were a longspear or one of the other weapons that deals double damage against charging enemies, would that be just the Readied attack, or all three?
Britt 11-28-06, 12:28 AM	The way it is worded, they would all deal double damage. However, it seems to imply that only the readied attack was intended. Expect table variation.
Mommy was an Orc 11-28-06, 01:06 AM	The way it is worded, they would all deal double damage. However, it seems to imply that only the readied attack was intended. Expect table variation. Hmm...I'd disagree with that - the readied action goes off before the AoOs, at which point you're no longer readied against the charge.
Britt 11-28-06, 01:19 AM	"If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character." You would have used a ready action to set a longspear against a charge and hits on the AoO from movement and Hold the Line would be successful hits against a charging character, so you would fulfill the requirements of the feat. This is a literal reading, and I think the intent is different, but a textual interpretation says they would all deal double damage.
Mommy was an Orc 11-28-06, 09:00 AM	"If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character." You would have used a ready action to set a longspear against a charge and hits on the AoO from movement and Hold the Line would be successful hits against a charging character, so you would fulfill the requirements of the feat. This is a literal reading, and I think the intent is different, but a textual interpretation says they would all deal double damage. That's not working through the action correctly on RAW basis IMO - here's how I look at it: I ready my action. Opponent charges. Readied Action goes off. I'm readied, so I do double damage. Movement AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage. Hold the Line AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage. 2nd Opponent charges. Movement AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage. Hold the Line AoO goes off. I'm no longer readied, so I do normal damage. Once you complete the ready action by the use of the 1st attack, you're no longer in the state of 'use a ready action'.
Britt 11-28-06, 09:23 AM	I agree that is how it should work, but not that that is what the text says. The language for what you describe would be something like "if you are readied". An analogy using the same structure would be: "If you murder someone, you are punished with X." That would mean that if you murder someone and get caught later, it doesn't matter what your current state of murdering someone is, you did it in the past; but, the second clause still applies. A law like the above clearly does not mean "if you are murdering someone"; there is a distinct difference between those phrases. The phrases in the hypothetical and the D&D rule do not contain anything to link the two clauses temporally. Heck, a strict reading of the text, if you didn't know D&D at all or what the words really meant, would justify the interpretation that if you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge in 593, you would still be doing double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. That's obviously outside the intent of the rules, but is what the language indicates if you don't have any insight into the intent. It may be three years later, but you did use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, so you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character. Again, that's ridiculous when you consider intent, but linguistically true. So that brings up the question, exactly how much is intended in the phrase? That's unclear and why the OP should expect table variation.
Mommy was an Orc 11-28-06, 10:21 AM	I agree that is how it should work, but not that that is what the text says. The language for what you describe would be something like "if you are readied". And hey, they have just that kind of language on PHB page 160... Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piecing weapons, setting them to receive charges (see Table 7-5: Weapons, page 116). A readied weapon deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character. After you swing with your readied weapon, it is no longer readied. Therefore you unambigiously don't get to do double damage with the AoOs...
Britt 11-28-06, 11:31 AM	Yes, that does clarify the intent more. However, being a pedantic butthead, that just says that if readied against a charge, you deal damage, not that you wouldn't continue to deal double damage on the other attacks. That's an overly strict reading, and I think the text you quoted definitely clarifies the intent.
_m_ 12-06-06, 10:44 PM	Hmm...I'd disagree with that - the readied action goes off before the AoOs, at which point you're no longer readied against the charge. hold the line, kind of by its own definition, is an automatic ready against a charge. you are quite clearly readying yourself against a charging opponent... preparing to hit them, if you will. i realise thats flavour reasoning, not raw, but spirit wise...
Mommy was an Orc 12-06-06, 11:18 PM	hold the line, kind of by its own definition, is an automatic ready against a charge. you are quite clearly readying yourself against a charging opponent... preparing to hit them, if you will. i realise thats flavour reasoning, not raw, but spirit wise... Well, yes and no. First off, it isn't a ready action - you don't get double damage from a longspear for using Hold the Line. And by your flavor assessment, you're actually in a sense arguing that someone who takes Hold the Line can't Ready to strike someone charging them - as they're already doing that...
_m_ 12-06-06, 11:36 PM	Well, yes and no. First off, it isn't a ready action - you don't get double damage from a longspear for using Hold the Line. And by your flavor assessment, you're actually in a sense arguing that someone who takes Hold the Line can't Ready to strike someone charging them - as they're already doing that... lol. im actually tryong to argue both sides, so that you and britt will continue trading ideas... kind of like the little girl poking the wasps nest with a stick :D i just like watching smart people think.
solbergb 12-11-06, 01:05 PM	Hold the line greatly increases the number of AOO's you get with combat reflexes especially when you need it most...in the surprise round. (everyone has to charge in the surprise round...) I'd estimate of all my Monk's AOO's between level 3 and level 13, roughly half were triggered by hold the line (half of the rest were "exit threaten square" AOO from enlarge or reach weapon or both and the last quarter were a mix of "Stand up" AOO's and "close quarters combat" AOO's). Part of why you get so many is folks aren't that careful about charging into a threantened area, compared to exiting a threatened area. It's not as good though if you don't do something significant with a single attack. I used those AOO's for grappling, tripping or, more recently, getting a decent whack in with a 2-handed vicious weapon. Most 2H fighters do enough damage even without power attack that it's useful but it's even better if you can use it to get two chances to trip that incoming raging barbarian (hold the line AOO, exiting threatened square AOO) before he can cut you in half. And if anyone cares, I agree with Andy. You only get double damage if you ready, and only on the readied attack. Barring steadfast boots, which make any attack "readyied vs charge".
LachlarlanIII 12-19-06, 02:54 PM	Have you checked Karmic Strike?