First Character Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

First Character Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lole
04-06-07, 11:05 AM Well, figuring out my first character for LG. Decided to go with a dwarf. Little background on him. His clan was completely destroyed by spellcasters. He is slowly finding out who did it and is out for revenge on them. So, my main question I have right now is:

When first starting out, can my character use a large dwarven waraxe, needing to use 2 hands to wield, or do i have to stick with a medium sized one until i get documentation that i can use a large weapon?

going to go Barbarian/Occult Slayer/Pious Templar if that helps any. thanks for the help.
Timlagor
04-06-07, 11:35 AM You can take Monkey Grip and use a Large weapon.

There is no good reason to do so.
KShaver
04-06-07, 12:47 PM Well since a dwarf with martial weapon prof:all can already use a dwarven waraxe in one hand, you can wield a large one, but it would require two hands unless you also took the monkey grip feat in which case you could wield the large dwarven waraxe in one hand. In either case you get a -2 to hit.

The usefullness of such is situational. Consider that you give yourself a -2 to hit to change from a d10 to 2d8. Your average base weapon damage changes from 5.5 to 9, a boost of 3.5 per swing. If you had power attack you could get +4 dmg for the same penalty to hit while wielding two-handed, and you could be using a greataxe for another 1 pt of avg damage. On the other hand using the large dwarven waraxe one handed is a pretty good deal, but you're still sacrificing a fixed amount of attack bonus for a fixed amount of damage, where as with power attack you can choose the numbers you need for any given situation.

Bottom line is if you want a two-handed weapon just go for a greataxe, and power attack will be your friend. If you want a giant one-hander, you'll be dealing massive damage, but your attack value will suffer on a premanent basis.
zoinks69
04-06-07, 01:56 PM I'll echo the other comments - Monkey Grip, in it's current form, is not that great a feat. I'm sure it'll impress the ladies to be swinging a big axe, but from an out-of-game perspective there's not a real advantage.

Feats I wouldn't overlook: Extra Rage and Mad Foam Rager.

If you're going Pious Templar, personally I'd take Weapon Focus at level 1 to both get it out of the way and to give you the bump you need at low level (since things are generally easy to hit but also go down in one shot -- when you roll low, weapon focus gives you the advantage vs. power attack on a 7hp creature :)
Maesto
04-06-07, 03:11 PM If you have monkey grip and use the dwarven waraxe two handed, does that negate the penalties entirely, which then looks to be a +2 bonus to hit, or rather, a feat for +3.5 damage on average? I'm not familiar with it...
Alpha_Nerd
04-06-07, 04:10 PM A character with EWP: Dwarven Waraxe can already wield a large one without monkey grip, since it moves from 1-handed to 2-handed. However, if you only had Martial Proficiency you would need the monkey grip feat. So, without a feat it lets him trade -2 hit for 3.5 damage. Also, if he gets enlarged it goes up another 4.5 average compared to the 3.5 you would get going from Medium to Large. I think it's a decent idea if you pick up Focus early on to upset it, because later on you might wish you could power attack for more than your BAB.
Lole
04-06-07, 04:50 PM Ok, I understand everything said, so i will bring up another point. Would it be wiser to take and use 2 dwarven waraxes, two-weapon fighting, then take the two-weapon fighting feat and the oversized two-weapon fighting feat? since they are already considered martial for a dwarf, i can wield them one handed with no penalty or am i reading it wrong?
Mithreinmaethor
04-06-07, 05:07 PM Ok, I understand everything said, so i will bring up another point. Would it be wiser to take and use 2 dwarven waraxes, two-weapon fighting, then take the two-weapon fighting feat and the oversized two-weapon fighting feat? since they are already considered martial for a dwarf, i can wield them one handed with no penalty or am i reading it wrong?

You are reading it correctly. If you wish to go the 2 handed route I would go with a few levels of Ranger, mix in some Scout (and the Swift Hunter feat when you qualify for it) then throw in some Deepwarden. Then figure something from there.
Lole
04-06-07, 05:31 PM Well, just noticed an issue, but i still thank for the help. cant go Barbarian with the diety i want to worship and still do pious templar. so looks like i am going fighter all the way to 5, then Occult slayer and then pious templar. but thank you for the help still. going to use a dwarven waraxe still.
Mithreinmaethor
04-06-07, 07:54 PM Well your question just had me go in and make a Dwarf Ranger 6 / Scout 7 / Deepwarden 2 to use as my Greyhawk ruins character. Well of course he isnt that level yet but he will be eventually. Just have to choose 3 favored enemies, I am sure aberrations is one the other 2 will be non crittable critters that with 1 feat i can use my 4d6 skirmish on (or 6d6 if i move 20 ft). dual wielding dwarven waraxes. should work fine
Timlagor
04-06-07, 09:50 PM Don't take Fighter 5 if you're not planning to take fighter 6 -you get nothing at fighter 5.

The best option for damage is a straight appropriately sized 2H weapon. It's just about possible to make monkey Grip yield more than the same penalty would give you through PA but it's definitely not worth the Feat to do so [and people will laugh at you].
David Argall
04-07-07, 02:35 AM Well, Ft 5 does give you +1 bab, but 6th gives that, a 2nd swing, +1 to each save, and a bonus feat.
Alternately, Barbarian 1 gives you that +1 bab, +2 to fort, rage ability, & fast movement.

So about the only good reason to take fighter 5 is to take fighter 6.
zoinks69
04-07-07, 07:35 PM Well, Ft 5 does give you +1 bab, but 6th gives that, a 2nd swing, +1 to each save, and a bonus feat.
Alternately, Barbarian 1 gives you that +1 bab, +2 to fort, rage ability, & fast movement.

So about the only good reason to take fighter 5 is to take fighter 6.

Having suffered through Fighter 5 with a few characters...I agree! With the amount of PrC and other useful options available, I think Fighter 5+ is a rare sight these days.

Also: "cant go Barbarian with the diety i want to worship and still do pious templar."

Not sure why this is the case. Barb is limited to non-lawful. Pious Templar has no alignment limitations. Unless I'm missing something, there's no reason not to have Barb 1/Fighter 4 (or maybe some Ranger mixed in)
Timlagor
04-07-07, 07:53 PM you're missing the "with the dEIty I want to worship"

..or perhaps the fact that PT's have the same alignment limitations as Clerics (see Deities Document)
zoinks69
04-09-07, 12:41 AM you're missing the "with the dEIty I want to worship"

..or perhaps the fact that PT's have the same alignment limitations as Clerics (see Deities Document)

Ah, that's interesting as I hadn't caught it before. I think I see the problem -- an LN deity doesn't allow for N templars. Indeed that makes for sad dwarves :~(
KarmaInferno
04-09-07, 02:09 PM Here's an odd thought about Monkey Grip:

Could a size medium character use Monkey Grip to wield a size Large shield for purposes of shield bashing?

Hmm...

-karma
LachlarlanIII
04-09-07, 03:23 PM Here's an odd thought about Monkey Grip:

Could a size medium character use Monkey Grip to wield a size Large shield for purposes of shield bashing?

Hmm...

-karma

I would rule yes, but the shield still only grants as much AC as a shield of normal size.

A Large Light Shield would grant +1 AC and do 1d8+str damage and a Large Heavy Shield would grant +2 AC and do 1d10+str damage, but you would take the -2 size penalty to attacks while doing so.
bitznarf
04-09-07, 04:08 PM Ah, but what about a Large Heavy Spiked Shield?
Jay_Ibero_911
04-09-07, 04:18 PM A medium light shield does 1d3, so a large light shield does 1d4. A medium heavy shield does 1d4, so a large heavy shield does 1d6. A medium spiked light shield does 1d4, so a large spiked light shield does 1d6. A medium spiked heavy shield does 1d6, so a large spiked heavy shield does 1d8. Add in the bashing property and your damage goes up by 2 sizes.
Large Bashing Light Shield=1d8
Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=2d6
Large Bashing Heavy Shield=2d6
Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=3d6
Mithreinmaethor
04-09-07, 04:18 PM Ah, but what about a Large Heavy Spiked Shield?

No a Large Spiked Heavy Shield of Bashing :) 3d6 of pointy goodness

and forget monkey grip. just wield it 2 handed. be a guy with a big shield charging around and smacking people. throw in the normal combat brute and shock trooper and its funny.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-09-07, 04:20 PM No a Large Spiked Heavy Shield of Bashing :) 3d6 of pointy goodness

and forget monkey grip. just wield it 2 handed. be a guy with a big shield charging around and smacking people. throw in the normal combat brute and shock trooper and its funny.

End up fighting like Goofy in Kingdom Hearts....
KShaver
04-09-07, 04:21 PM Misspost. :P
LachlarlanIII
04-09-07, 04:35 PM A medium light shield does 1d3, so a large light shield does 1d4. A medium heavy shield does 1d4, so a large heavy shield does 1d6. A medium spiked light shield does 1d4, so a large spiked light shield does 1d6. A medium spiked heavy shield does 1d6, so a large spiked heavy shield does 1d8. Add in the bashing property and your damage goes up by 2 sizes.
Large Bashing Light Shield=1d8
Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=2d6
Large Bashing Heavy Shield=2d6
Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=3d6

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure how much damage the various shields-as-weapons did.
Mithreinmaethor
04-09-07, 04:45 PM End up fighting like Goofy in Kingdom Hearts....

What is Kingdom Hearts ? Anime ? Console game ?
LachlarlanIII
04-09-07, 04:53 PM What is Kingdom Hearts ? Anime ? Console game ?

It's a PS2 SquareEnix game that takes the various Final Fantasy universes and merges them with the Disney universes.

Sounds funny, but it's actually quite enjoyable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lole 04-06-07, 11:05 AM	Well, figuring out my first character for LG. Decided to go with a dwarf. Little background on him. His clan was completely destroyed by spellcasters. He is slowly finding out who did it and is out for revenge on them. So, my main question I have right now is: When first starting out, can my character use a large dwarven waraxe, needing to use 2 hands to wield, or do i have to stick with a medium sized one until i get documentation that i can use a large weapon? going to go Barbarian/Occult Slayer/Pious Templar if that helps any. thanks for the help.
Timlagor 04-06-07, 11:35 AM	You can take Monkey Grip and use a Large weapon. There is no good reason to do so.
KShaver 04-06-07, 12:47 PM	Well since a dwarf with martial weapon prof:all can already use a dwarven waraxe in one hand, you can wield a large one, but it would require two hands unless you also took the monkey grip feat in which case you could wield the large dwarven waraxe in one hand. In either case you get a -2 to hit. The usefullness of such is situational. Consider that you give yourself a -2 to hit to change from a d10 to 2d8. Your average base weapon damage changes from 5.5 to 9, a boost of 3.5 per swing. If you had power attack you could get +4 dmg for the same penalty to hit while wielding two-handed, and you could be using a greataxe for another 1 pt of avg damage. On the other hand using the large dwarven waraxe one handed is a pretty good deal, but you're still sacrificing a fixed amount of attack bonus for a fixed amount of damage, where as with power attack you can choose the numbers you need for any given situation. Bottom line is if you want a two-handed weapon just go for a greataxe, and power attack will be your friend. If you want a giant one-hander, you'll be dealing massive damage, but your attack value will suffer on a premanent basis.
zoinks69 04-06-07, 01:56 PM	I'll echo the other comments - Monkey Grip, in it's current form, is not that great a feat. I'm sure it'll impress the ladies to be swinging a big axe, but from an out-of-game perspective there's not a real advantage. Feats I wouldn't overlook: Extra Rage and Mad Foam Rager. If you're going Pious Templar, personally I'd take Weapon Focus at level 1 to both get it out of the way and to give you the bump you need at low level (since things are generally easy to hit but also go down in one shot -- when you roll low, weapon focus gives you the advantage vs. power attack on a 7hp creature :)
Maesto 04-06-07, 03:11 PM	If you have monkey grip and use the dwarven waraxe two handed, does that negate the penalties entirely, which then looks to be a +2 bonus to hit, or rather, a feat for +3.5 damage on average? I'm not familiar with it...
Alpha_Nerd 04-06-07, 04:10 PM	A character with EWP: Dwarven Waraxe can already wield a large one without monkey grip, since it moves from 1-handed to 2-handed. However, if you only had Martial Proficiency you would need the monkey grip feat. So, without a feat it lets him trade -2 hit for 3.5 damage. Also, if he gets enlarged it goes up another 4.5 average compared to the 3.5 you would get going from Medium to Large. I think it's a decent idea if you pick up Focus early on to upset it, because later on you might wish you could power attack for more than your BAB.
Lole 04-06-07, 04:50 PM	Ok, I understand everything said, so i will bring up another point. Would it be wiser to take and use 2 dwarven waraxes, two-weapon fighting, then take the two-weapon fighting feat and the oversized two-weapon fighting feat? since they are already considered martial for a dwarf, i can wield them one handed with no penalty or am i reading it wrong?
Mithreinmaethor 04-06-07, 05:07 PM	Ok, I understand everything said, so i will bring up another point. Would it be wiser to take and use 2 dwarven waraxes, two-weapon fighting, then take the two-weapon fighting feat and the oversized two-weapon fighting feat? since they are already considered martial for a dwarf, i can wield them one handed with no penalty or am i reading it wrong? You are reading it correctly. If you wish to go the 2 handed route I would go with a few levels of Ranger, mix in some Scout (and the Swift Hunter feat when you qualify for it) then throw in some Deepwarden. Then figure something from there.
Lole 04-06-07, 05:31 PM	Well, just noticed an issue, but i still thank for the help. cant go Barbarian with the diety i want to worship and still do pious templar. so looks like i am going fighter all the way to 5, then Occult slayer and then pious templar. but thank you for the help still. going to use a dwarven waraxe still.
Mithreinmaethor 04-06-07, 07:54 PM	Well your question just had me go in and make a Dwarf Ranger 6 / Scout 7 / Deepwarden 2 to use as my Greyhawk ruins character. Well of course he isnt that level yet but he will be eventually. Just have to choose 3 favored enemies, I am sure aberrations is one the other 2 will be non crittable critters that with 1 feat i can use my 4d6 skirmish on (or 6d6 if i move 20 ft). dual wielding dwarven waraxes. should work fine
Timlagor 04-06-07, 09:50 PM	Don't take Fighter 5 if you're not planning to take fighter 6 -you get nothing at fighter 5. The best option for damage is a straight appropriately sized 2H weapon. It's just about possible to make monkey Grip yield more than the same penalty would give you through PA but it's definitely not worth the Feat to do so [and people will laugh at you].
David Argall 04-07-07, 02:35 AM	Well, Ft 5 does give you +1 bab, but 6th gives that, a 2nd swing, +1 to each save, and a bonus feat. Alternately, Barbarian 1 gives you that +1 bab, +2 to fort, rage ability, & fast movement. So about the only good reason to take fighter 5 is to take fighter 6.
zoinks69 04-07-07, 07:35 PM	Well, Ft 5 does give you +1 bab, but 6th gives that, a 2nd swing, +1 to each save, and a bonus feat. Alternately, Barbarian 1 gives you that +1 bab, +2 to fort, rage ability, & fast movement. So about the only good reason to take fighter 5 is to take fighter 6. Having suffered through Fighter 5 with a few characters...I agree! With the amount of PrC and other useful options available, I think Fighter 5+ is a rare sight these days. Also: "cant go Barbarian with the diety i want to worship and still do pious templar." Not sure why this is the case. Barb is limited to non-lawful. Pious Templar has no alignment limitations. Unless I'm missing something, there's no reason not to have Barb 1/Fighter 4 (or maybe some Ranger mixed in)
Timlagor 04-07-07, 07:53 PM	you're missing the "with the dEIty I want to worship" ..or perhaps the fact that PT's have the same alignment limitations as Clerics (see Deities Document)
zoinks69 04-09-07, 12:41 AM	you're missing the "with the dEIty I want to worship" ..or perhaps the fact that PT's have the same alignment limitations as Clerics (see Deities Document) Ah, that's interesting as I hadn't caught it before. I think I see the problem -- an LN deity doesn't allow for N templars. Indeed that makes for sad dwarves :~(
KarmaInferno 04-09-07, 02:09 PM	Here's an odd thought about Monkey Grip: Could a size medium character use Monkey Grip to wield a size Large shield for purposes of shield bashing? Hmm... -karma
LachlarlanIII 04-09-07, 03:23 PM	Here's an odd thought about Monkey Grip: Could a size medium character use Monkey Grip to wield a size Large shield for purposes of shield bashing? Hmm... -karma I would rule yes, but the shield still only grants as much AC as a shield of normal size. A Large Light Shield would grant +1 AC and do 1d8+str damage and a Large Heavy Shield would grant +2 AC and do 1d10+str damage, but you would take the -2 size penalty to attacks while doing so.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 04:08 PM	Ah, but what about a Large Heavy Spiked Shield?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-09-07, 04:18 PM	A medium light shield does 1d3, so a large light shield does 1d4. A medium heavy shield does 1d4, so a large heavy shield does 1d6. A medium spiked light shield does 1d4, so a large spiked light shield does 1d6. A medium spiked heavy shield does 1d6, so a large spiked heavy shield does 1d8. Add in the bashing property and your damage goes up by 2 sizes. Large Bashing Light Shield=1d8 Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=2d6 Large Bashing Heavy Shield=2d6 Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=3d6
Mithreinmaethor 04-09-07, 04:18 PM	Ah, but what about a Large Heavy Spiked Shield? No a Large Spiked Heavy Shield of Bashing :) 3d6 of pointy goodness and forget monkey grip. just wield it 2 handed. be a guy with a big shield charging around and smacking people. throw in the normal combat brute and shock trooper and its funny.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-09-07, 04:20 PM	No a Large Spiked Heavy Shield of Bashing :) 3d6 of pointy goodness and forget monkey grip. just wield it 2 handed. be a guy with a big shield charging around and smacking people. throw in the normal combat brute and shock trooper and its funny. End up fighting like Goofy in Kingdom Hearts....
KShaver 04-09-07, 04:21 PM	Misspost. :P
LachlarlanIII 04-09-07, 04:35 PM	A medium light shield does 1d3, so a large light shield does 1d4. A medium heavy shield does 1d4, so a large heavy shield does 1d6. A medium spiked light shield does 1d4, so a large spiked light shield does 1d6. A medium spiked heavy shield does 1d6, so a large spiked heavy shield does 1d8. Add in the bashing property and your damage goes up by 2 sizes. Large Bashing Light Shield=1d8 Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=2d6 Large Bashing Heavy Shield=2d6 Large Bashing Spiked Light Shield=3d6 Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure how much damage the various shields-as-weapons did.
Mithreinmaethor 04-09-07, 04:45 PM	End up fighting like Goofy in Kingdom Hearts.... What is Kingdom Hearts ? Anime ? Console game ?
LachlarlanIII 04-09-07, 04:53 PM	What is Kingdom Hearts ? Anime ? Console game ? It's a PS2 SquareEnix game that takes the various Final Fantasy universes and merges them with the Disney universes. Sounds funny, but it's actually quite enjoyable.