Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fghj171983 10-31-06, 03:35 AM	I am thinking about going straight monk for next living greyhawk character. I am open to ideas and suggestions though but I was thinking something like this. FYI I will be carrying a spiked chain to make AoO's with. Kama will be my secondary weapon. Half-orc Monk pumping Wis at 4, 8, and 12 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 6 Skills: Tumble, Listen, Spot (open to suggestions) Feats (open to suggestions but I would like to be a good stunner) 1 Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple(not sure how helpful this will be as a mnk) 2 Combat Reflexes 3 Pain Touch 4 5 6 Improved Trip, Sun School (Is this worth taking?) 7 8 9 Rapid Stunning 10 11 12 Power Attack or Improved Toughness??? 13 14 15 Freezing the Lifeblood I have also though about taking dodge at first lvl and defensive throw at lvl 6 and thoughts?
Cynric 10-31-06, 03:53 AM	I would suggest taking Weakening touch as soon as you can. That -6 to the bad guys strength could be very handy in making him miss.
UMiskatonic 10-31-06, 10:26 AM	As a strong monk with imp. grapple, you'll be pretty good at it. It's going to work well vs. enemy casters, specially the arcane ones. More importantly, its ALSO a +4 when you get grappled. You'll be good at tripping with the chain as well, since you're strong and have combat reflexes to make AOs. I'll vote against dodge. It's not that good on its own, its good because its a pre-req.
solbergb 10-31-06, 12:33 PM	Looks like a decent well rounded build. Sun school martial arts is a lot of fun. While Flash of Sunset won't come up for a while, do not underestimate the power of being able to shift collossal monsters 5' just by hitting them with your first two unarmed strike attacks. The repeated stunning thing sometimes is handy too, although most opponents that you stun once will be dead before you get to stun them again :) By level 12, you will have very good use for power attack. In fact you'll probably be missing it for a couple levels before that. It wasn't until I started getting GMW routinely on my fist that my target number for hitting many opponents was "2". I've had a lot of situations in the 10-13 game where I could have made very good use out of power attack without actually lowering my odds of hitting. Before level 9? Not so much. You may want to reshuffle feats to get rapid stun at 6, power attack at 9 and sun school at 12, but all 3 are good feats and the order doesn't matter much...just think at each breakpoint which you'd have like to had the last 3 levels more. I advise against defensive feats such as dodge. Monks are strong defensively and most of the dodge/mobility chain just wastes feats (you can already tumble and get +1 to Ac vs everyone when fighting defensively) and don't have feats to spare.
Arvagor 10-31-06, 01:23 PM	FYI I will be carrying a spiked chain to make AoO's with. Kama will be my secondary weapon.You do realize that spiked chain is not one of the monk's special weapons? Meaning you can't flurry with it... I see you also have n't taken proficiency with it, meaning all your attacks with the chain are going to be at -4. I'm just sayin', FYI...
Mommy was an Orc 10-31-06, 02:51 PM	You do realize that spiked chain is not one of the monk's special weapons? Meaning you can't flurry with it... I see you also have n't taken proficiency with it, meaning all your attacks with the chain are going to be at -4. I'm just sayin', FYI... However, you can flurry with your feet while holding a Spiked Chain - that way, when someone charges you, you make a touch attack against them and try to trip them. If it works, you 5' step up to them, flurry and kick them, then hit them again when they try to stand up. Works even better once you get Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip. My Monk ran up to some archer types with her Longspear(proficient from a Sorcerer level), so they couldn't 5' step back and shoot her or withdraw without taking AoOs.
fghj171983 10-31-06, 03:04 PM	Thanks for all the advice guys if anyone else has thoughts or ideas i am open to them as well. As for trying to move rapid stunning to lvl 6 the prereqs are BAB +6 so I cant get it until lvl 9. :( The only reason I would have taken dodge was to qualify for defensive throw though it probly wont help that much so I may just stay away from it. Sun school does sound interesting though and improved grapple will mess up enemy casters pretty bad so I may go that route as well. As for the spiked chain I was really just going to use it to make touch attacks to trip people even with -4 it wont be that hard to hit touch AC. I can still make unarmed attacks at no penalty too. Also sounds like at high lvls that I will probly get more out of power attack than Improved toughness but I am probly picking up a periphet of wisdom instead of an amulet of health so I wont have higher than a 14 con unless buffed. Keep the info coming guys. :)
UMiskatonic 10-31-06, 03:30 PM	Power attack isn't a great monk feat, in my opinion. 1) You can't power attack with a light weapon. 2) Unarmed strikes are light weapons
Arvagor 10-31-06, 03:41 PM	Power attack isn't a great monk feat, in my opinion. 1) You can't power attack with a light weapon. 2) Unarmed strikes are light weapons "You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies." So a perfectly acceptable choice for monks...
_m_ 10-31-06, 07:22 PM	on the topic of unarmed attack damage, is there any way you can stack unarmed attacks and natuarl attacks damage? ie. monks get unarmed damage green star adepts get natural unarmed damage due to hardness of skin draconic claws, the draconic heratige feat, gives you natural attacks due to having claws. do any of these stack, and are there any that do stack, if these dont?
solbergb 10-31-06, 10:22 PM	They don't stack. They're in addition. The rules for mixing a "manufactured weapon/iterative attack" with natural weapons is in the Monster Manual, but in brief, all natural weapons available not used to weild the manufactured weapon are treated as secondary nat weapons. I believe the example is a troll, whose other claw and his bite attack are at -5 and half strength when weilding a sword. His sword attack is not penalized for using this routine. The FAQ has also touched on this topic, essentially saying the following: you can flurry if you are in a form that can weild weapons combining those two rules and the one about being able to flurry even with your hands full and you get this: A monk in troglodyte, annis hag or troll form can kick his entire flurry, then do a claw/claw/bite routine with all claws/bites treated as secondary nat weapons (-5 to hit, no iterative attacks, power attack 1-1, strength/2 added to damage) with no impact on his main flurry attack. To do this though, his hands have to be empty (no holding a reach weapon, quarterstaff, orphaned baby or whatever while clawing...) A monk in a bear form however, probably can't flurry given the most recent FAQ ruling. A dragon disciple though, is good, he can use his claws as long as he's not using his hands for either the flurry or anything else.
_m_ 10-31-06, 10:35 PM	They don't stack. They're in addition. The rules for mixing a "manufactured weapon/iterative attack" with natural weapons is in the Monster Manual, but in brief, all natural weapons available not used to weild the manufactured weapon are treated as secondary nat weapons. I believe the example is a troll, whose other claw and his bite attack are at -5 and half strength when weilding a sword. His sword attack is not penalized for using this routine. The FAQ has also touched on this topic, essentially saying the following: you can flurry if you are in a form that can weild weapons combining those two rules and the one about being able to flurry even with your hands full and you get this: A monk in troglodyte, annis hag or troll form can kick his entire flurry, then do a claw/claw/bite routine with all claws/bites treated as secondary nat weapons (-5 to hit, no iterative attacks, power attack 1-1, strength/2 added to damage) with no impact on his main flurry attack. To do this though, his hands have to be empty (no holding a reach weapon, quarterstaff, orphaned baby or whatever while clawing...) A monk in a bear form however, probably can't flurry given the most recent FAQ ruling. A dragon disciple though, is good, he can use his claws as long as he's not using his hands for either the flurry or anything else. hang on, correct me if i missinterpreted you, but wouldnt that basically mean you get a huge pile of extra attacks? like, the natural attack from a green star adept, + the claw from a draconic heratige feat, and the natural attack from an animal lord... would you get all those attacks, in addition to your normal attacks?
DuctShuiTengu 10-31-06, 11:08 PM	hang on, correct me if i missinterpreted you, but wouldnt that basically mean you get a huge pile of extra attacks? like, the natural attack from a green star adept, + the claw from a draconic heratige feat, and the natural attack from an animal lord... would you get all those attacks, in addition to your normal attacks? You definitely get all the unarmed strikes. The claws and Slam... I think would overlap since both use your hands. Assuming that the natural attack from Animal Lord is a bite (Sharklord or Snakelord) you get that as well. If it's claws, it overlaps with the claws from Draconic Claws. Also, keep in mind that to get all of this, you've had to spend 2 feats for Draconic Heritage and Draconic Claws (not to mention Sorcerer levels that you won't have enough of to be effective), A third feat for Combat Casting to get into Greenstar Adept, and probably a 4th feat to qualify for Animal Lord, to say nothing of the various skills. And you're still going to have to get yourself into a position to make a full-attack with a relatively low BAB and fewer HP than is good for a melee type, and none of those attacks will be doing much damage (not to mention that they'll be at a -5 to hit, so you're going to miss with a lot of them). So yes, it's doable, but mostly you end up trading the ability to be useful for a lot of chances to flail ineffectually at your opponent.
Arvagor 10-31-06, 11:21 PM	So yes, it's doable, but mostly you end up trading the ability to be useful for a lot of chances to flail ineffectually at your opponent. :rofl: :heehee :rofl: If I had a sig, you'd be in it now, Duct! In my two years of playing in LG, I've seen two different players who were so multi-classed, that they still had BAB +0 at 6th and 8th level, respectively -- they wore it as a badge of honor, despite not being able to hit squat, even with a ranged touch attack...
_m_ 10-31-06, 11:38 PM	You definitely get all the unarmed strikes. The claws and Slam... I think would overlap since both use your hands. Assuming that the natural attack from Animal Lord is a bite (Sharklord or Snakelord) you get that as well. If it's claws, it overlaps with the claws from Draconic Claws. Also, keep in mind that to get all of this, you've had to spend 2 feats for Draconic Heritage and Draconic Claws (not to mention Sorcerer levels that you won't have enough of to be effective), A third feat for Combat Casting to get into Greenstar Adept, and probably a 4th feat to qualify for Animal Lord, to say nothing of the various skills. And you're still going to have to get yourself into a position to make a full-attack with a relatively low BAB and fewer HP than is good for a melee type, and none of those attacks will be doing much damage (not to mention that they'll be at a -5 to hit, so you're going to miss with a lot of them). So yes, it's doable, but mostly you end up trading the ability to be useful for a lot of chances to flail ineffectually at your opponent. ok, human, free feat at level 1. you only need 1 sorcer level for both greenstar adept and dragon disciple. 1 feat for greenstar, combat casting. 1 feat for sharklord (imp swimming), 2 feats for the draconic claws. take a bit of fighter in there to up your bab a bit, and to get power attack for free, then some monk, given that the bab is slightly of 1/1 due to the sorc level and monk, you wont pull the levels in till you already have the feats covered. then at 7 or 8, cant remember the exact bab of the monk (no books on me), take 3 sharklord levels, mayb 2 or 3 dragon disciples, and the rest in green star adept. however, i was never intending to take animal lord, just wanted to know if the nat damage from green star adept stacked, or was available at the same time as, the monk attacks. also, at what stage does it say the slam is technically using one of your hands? couldnt you, in theory, flurry with your feet, slam with your shoulder, then claw with draconic claws? and since the damage from a green star adepts slam is unarmed, with monk levels, could you consider it also power attackable? claws too?
fghj171983 11-01-06, 01:59 AM	My precious thread has been highjacked. :O jk Good info btw any other ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated. :)
DuctShuiTengu 11-01-06, 11:01 AM	ok, human, free feat at level 1. you only need 1 sorcer level for both greenstar adept and dragon disciple. 1 feat for greenstar, combat casting. 1 feat for sharklord (imp swimming), 2 feats for the draconic claws. take a bit of fighter in there to up your bab a bit, and to get power attack for free, then some monk, given that the bab is slightly of 1/1 due to the sorc level and monk, you wont pull the levels in till you already have the feats covered. then at 7 or 8, cant remember the exact bab of the monk (no books on me), take 3 sharklord levels, mayb 2 or 3 dragon disciples, and the rest in green star adept. Which is still every feat through 9th level, and you're losing 3 BAB over the course of those levels (first level of Sorcerer, Monk, and Green Star Adept), 4 if you also take levels of Dragon Disciple. So, your first free feat would be at 12th level, and if you switch to a full-BAB class after getting Green Star Adept and Dragon Disciple, you'll just catch up to 3/4s BAB by the time you retire. Not to mention the serious case of MAD you'll have interfering with your ability to rely on high strength to let you hit consistantly. Mostly felt I needed to clarify since your initial comment seemed to indicate that you felt this was overpowered. however, i was never intending to take animal lord, just wanted to know if the nat damage from green star adept stacked, or was available at the same time as, the monk attacks. also, at what stage does it say the slam is technically using one of your hands? couldnt you, in theory, flurry with your feet, slam with your shoulder, then claw with draconic claws? the description of the slam attack says "the creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage." Also, the entries for Giants (and possibly others) list using either their two-handed weapon of choice (gargantuan morningstar for cloud giants, greatsword for Fire giants, greatclub for hill giants, etc.) or their two slam attacks. So while it doesn't specificly state that you have to use a hand or arm, there's enough that hints at it that there are likely to be a fair number of judges who rule that you do. and since the damage from a green star adepts slam is unarmed, with monk levels, could you consider it also power attackable? claws too? as Arvagor already said in this thread: "You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies."
solbergb 11-01-06, 01:33 PM	To put this in perspective. My L12monk/wiz1 does about 85 points of damage with a flurry+GMW and no other buffs. His "claw/claw/bite" routine in troglodyte form only adds an additional 16.5 damage to that total, and they're at the same attack bonus as his last iterative monk flurry attack, and aren't considered magic for DR penetration. Eight attacks sound better than five, but not when you consider that a single kick from the flurry does almost as much as all three attacks combined, and does so at a higher attack mod and also as a magic/axiomatic attack. It's only when an effect that adds "X damage for each attack" such as bardsong or critical strike where the extra attacks actually do anything meaningful. Even then, they're at the low side of his overall damage barring something like fires of purity which adds a LOT to each attack (with inspire courage3, he does ~100 points with his flurry and 25.5 with his claw/claw/bite)
Japangirl 11-01-06, 01:42 PM	A dire bear druid with one level of monk does a sick amount of damage (Flurry then claw claw bite). Especially when said druid has +5 wild dragonhide full plate and a +1 wild tower shield, so in bear form gets wisdom to AC on top of the full plate and tower shield. Then you do a LOT of damage with the extra attacks (STR in the low 30s, +20ish to hit on all attacks, and six attacks a round). Not that a friend of mine actually does this or anything . . .
Mommy was an Orc 11-01-06, 01:46 PM	Which is still every feat through 9th level, and you're losing 3 BAB over the course of those levels (first level of Sorcerer, Monk, and Green Star Adept), 4 if you also take levels of Dragon Disciple. So, your first free feat would be at 12th level, and if you switch to a full-BAB class after getting Green Star Adept and Dragon Disciple, you'll just catch up to 3/4s BAB by the time you retire. Not to mention the serious case of MAD you'll have interfering with your ability to rely on high strength to let you hit consistantly. Mostly felt I needed to clarify since your initial comment seemed to indicate that you felt this was overpowered. That loss of the BAB isn't that bad if you do it correctly - something along the lines of: Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 2/Green Star Adept 4/Enlightened Fist 4. Human Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14, where you level Strength, eventually ends up with a 28 Strength including items. Cast Chill Touch as a free action, kick, slam, claw and bite. Take Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple, Power Attack at 1st, Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, Combat Casting at 6th, Craft Wondrous at 9th, Ascetic Mage at 12th, and Arcane Strike at 15th. Sure, you only have a +10 BAB at 15th, but on the other hand, your attacks do a lot of damage when they hit. Regardless of the interpretation of the FAQ, GSA makes sure that you're qualifying for Enlightened Fist.
_m_ 11-01-06, 04:54 PM	Mostly felt I needed to clarify since your initial comment seemed to indicate that you felt this was overpowered. wasnt at all trying to indicate it was overpowered. heck, the green star adept is not exactly the most fantastic class on the planet. i was just curious as to weather or not it could be done.
Piuro 11-02-06, 02:50 AM	Simple answer: Stay the everliving hell away from monks in LG. I played one for 2 and a half years, and you know what? First level clerics were beating me. I had a good build and everything, but so much of LG is gear. And with very limited monk gear in the books, let alone that you get access to... Oh yes, and thanks to a brilliant erratta that says Ki-strike magic doesnt let your fist count as magic for the purpose of hitting etherial creatures, means either A: You, by some ungodly means, find an umlet of the fist or B: you sit it out.
Arvagor 11-02-06, 03:55 AM	Oh yes, and thanks to a brilliant erratta that says Ki-strike magic doesnt let your fist count as magic for the purpose of hitting etherial creatures, means either A: You, by some ungodly means, find an umlet of the fist or B: you sit it out.Opinion of the FAQ aside (and its incorporeals unaffected, not ethereal), spend the 50gp each and pick up some oil of magic weapon. IMO, the FAQ is correct, and is how I have always played monks unarmed strikes, my own included. If the rules had said, "Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons", that would be one thing; but it actually says, "Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction." Shadows, wraiths, and other incorporeals don't have damage reduction, they have a chance to ignore all damage dealt to them from a corporeal source.
Piuro 11-02-06, 04:27 AM	Because id much rather waste a round applying an oil which I need to buy in order to do something a fighter can do for a one time cost. Its just not fun when everyone who started buying gear at forst level simply does everything you can do better. After all, a simple belt of the monk belonging to another player makes five levels of you useless. The one thing that is nice is raise deads. Monks always have cash lying around. Monks should have big freaking bags of platinum listed as a special monk weapon; what else are they going to do with it?
UMiskatonic 11-02-06, 11:15 AM	Wow. Didn't know monks could power attack. That's quite a change. Monks aren't all bad. There are a bunch of situations where monks are quite good. Any fight where you wake up in the middle of the night, any place where weapons are restricted (Greyhawk City comes to mind), and the inevitable ship fight. When you add in situations that call for balance checks or jumping, it's a good percentage of the time. Monks are always 100% ready to go, fighters are not. That said, both should have ghost oil, oil of bless weapon, and oil of magic weapon ready to go at all times.
Mommy was an Orc 11-02-06, 11:52 AM	Its just not fun when everyone who started buying gear at forst level simply does everything you can do better. After all, a simple belt of the monk belonging to another player makes five levels of you useless. I really don't understand why your monk isn't buying gear. You don't have a Vow of Poverty and you're not forced to fight with your hands. All my monks eventually get a magic quarterstaff, magic reach weapon(even non-proficient), and a magic kama. They buy stat items, bracers of armor, boots of speed, rings of protection, heward's handy haversacks, vests of protection, a useful cloak if possible, etc...the only thing they really don't buy is magical armor and even then, the Bracers of Armor are making up for that cost. And Monk Belt's are lousy - 13K for +1.5 damage, +1 AC, and the ability to use an extra stunning fist a day at the cost of a belt slot? Yuck...
solbergb 11-02-06, 12:52 PM	A dire bear druid with one level of monk does a sick amount of damage (Flurry then claw claw bite). Especially when said druid has so in bear form gets wisdom to AC on top of the full plate and tower shield. Then you do a LOT of damage with the extra attacks (STR in the low 30s, +20ish to hit on all attacks, and six attacks a round). Not that a friend of mine actually does this or anything . . . Wouldn't work at my table. #1 - armor and shield interfere with monk flurry. The fact that the shield is animated doesn't end the restriction #2 - you probably can't flurry in bear form anymore, due to the FAQ entry. Bears don't normally use weapons, and the FAQ says you can flurry if in a form that can normally use weapons. (it doesn't explicitly exclude flurrying in dire bear form, but many judges will interpret it this way. There are in fact zero wildshape forms which can normally use weapons (maybe the elemental forms?) You can get the wis bonus to AC yes, but not tower shield. You're better off with the animated tower shield, and leaving off the level of monk. The wild armor is another grey area - it merges with you but it isn't clear whether you still are subject to armor check penalties and if a judge rules you are, he will likely also rule you are "wearing armor" and can't monk flurry. (given that a ring of force shield or a mithril buckler also interfere with flurry, he's got a leg to stand on) >+5 wild dragonhide full plate and a +1 wild tower shield This also is pretty damn expensive. And dire bear is a level 12+ trick. So not something you really need to worry about for another few years, if this is the OP's' first character.
solbergb 11-02-06, 12:59 PM	As for that very negative post on monks in LG, I have one question for you. How high was your strength? Every single monk I've met who was unhappy with his character started with 14 strength or lower. 80% of them had the spring attack feat chain, which encouraged them to be even more useless, plus wasted 3 feats. *my* monk was a strong contibutor from level 1. His AC was low, his tactical feats very powerful (grapple, combat reflexes+nonproficient spiked chain, trip at L6). As his tactical feats ran into more resistant enemies, his flurry got more powerful. As his number of attacks increased, the odds that somebody would cast a spell that added damage/attack increased. He's not played a single module over level 10 where a GMW or GMF wasn't provided for his unarmed strike - because it's better on his fist than on any other weapon in the party. I keep oil of bless weapon and magic weapon handy anyway. In low levels, oil of shillelagh gives a significant damage boost in addition to the enhancement bonus, making it more worth a round to oil it up. The only "monk gear" a monk needs is attribute boosters and a resistance vest or cloak. Attribute boosters are freely available in +2 form and common in +4 form. (and yes, a belt of str +4 is much better than a monk's belt if you grapple or trip and want to hit and do damage with your flurry)
Japangirl 11-02-06, 01:07 PM	Wouldn't work at my table. #1 - armor and shield interfere with monk flurry. The fact that the shield is animated doesn't end the restriction #2 - you probably can't flurry in bear form anymore, due to the FAQ entry. Bears don't normally use weapons, and the FAQ says you can flurry if in a form that can normally use weapons. (it doesn't explicitly exclude flurrying in dire bear form, but many judges will interpret it this way. There are in fact zero wildshape forms which can normally use weapons (maybe the elemental forms?) You can get the wis bonus to AC yes, but not tower shield. You're better off with the animated tower shield, and leaving off the level of monk. The wild armor is another grey area - it merges with you but it isn't clear whether you still are subject to armor check penalties and if a judge rules you are, he will likely also rule you are "wearing armor" and can't monk flurry. (given that a ring of force shield or a mithril buckler also interfere with flurry, he's got a leg to stand on) >+5 wild dragonhide full plate and a +1 wild tower shield This also is pretty damn expensive. And dire bear is a level 12+ trick. So not something you really need to worry about for another few years, if this is the OP's' first character. Nope, he's already 12 and almost 13 :) Also, it's not an animated tower shield. It's a wild tower shield and melds with him just like his armor does (he already has the armor, is close to the shield). He definitely isn't wearing the armor: there is another enchant that is +2 that has the armor change shape with you but not meld. Given that wild is +3 and says it melds with you, you are no longer wearing it and can get the monk bonus to AC. As for the monk flurry, he's not using weapons. He's using his head, snout, elbows, and other various body parts like a monk would with an unarmed strike, and then claw/claw/bite after that.
Mommy was an Orc 11-02-06, 01:25 PM	The only "monk gear" a monk needs is attribute boosters and a resistance vest or cloak. Attribute boosters are freely available in +2 form and common in +4 form. (and yes, a belt of str +4 is much better than a monk's belt if you grapple or trip and want to hit and do damage with your flurry) That's true to a certain extent, but it works a lot better when you have the other items - asking for particular spells goes over a lot better when you have Pearls or a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell to fuel your buffs. There's almost always a caster who can use the Lesser Rod for something even if you can't get your favorites.
Mommy was an Orc 11-02-06, 04:15 PM	Nope, he's already 12 and almost 13 :) Also, it's not an animated tower shield. It's a wild tower shield and melds with him just like his armor does (he already has the armor, is close to the shield). He definitely isn't wearing the armor: there is another enchant that is +2 that has the armor change shape with you but not meld. Given that wild is +3 and says it melds with you, you are no longer wearing it and can get the monk bonus to AC. While the wearer is in wild shape, the armor cannot be seen. Not being seen is different than melding. It is clearly still there, just unseen, and therefore all benefits and penalties apply. Given that Beastskin is a +2, doesn't give the unseen ability and requires a use of Wildshape to power, it seems a reasonable upgrade from +2 to +3 to kill the Wildshape use and make it unseen. As for the monk flurry, he's not using weapons. He's using his head, snout, elbows, and other various body parts like a monk would with an unarmed strike, and then claw/claw/bite after that. That's incorrect. The only time you can get secondary attacks with a flurry is when you had the option of using a weapon with the natural weapon attacks. In other words, if a Dire Bear had the choice of using longsword/claw/bite or claw/claw/bite, then he can kick/flurry kick/claw/claw/bite. If the Dire Bear's only option is to Claw/Claw/Bite, then he can either do unarmed strikes or claw/claw/bite. That's paraphrased from page 13 of the current FAQ.
Japangirl 11-02-06, 07:01 PM	Actually, what Wild enchants do is give you the armor bonus of the piece while you are wild shaped. You don't actually still wear the armor, and you have no penalties from non-proficiency or armor check penalties from the armor. Thus, you are technically unarmored and eligible for all the monkish type stuff. "The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen." As for the flurry/no flurry stuff, I direct you to the troll hunter entry of the SRD. He gets his iterative attacks with his battleaxe, and then also the claw and bite from being a troll. Thus, as a monk and proficient with all parts of the body, you get your normal iterative (and flurried) attack routine followed by your secondary natural attacks.
Mommy was an Orc 11-02-06, 08:39 PM	Actually, what Wild enchants do is give you the armor bonus of the piece while you are wild shaped. You don't actually still wear the armor, and you have no penalties from non-proficiency or armor check penalties from the armor. Thus, you are technically unarmored and eligible for all the monkish type stuff. "The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen." As I noted, it says the armor cannot be seen. It does not say it is melded. If it is melded, there is no reason to say it cannot be seen as that's a default state of being melded. There are also ridiculously broken applications of this that are clearly not in the spirit of the rules - a Druid wearing Full Plate and Wildshaped into the form of an Air Elemental with a 29 Dex as an example. Same thing goes for the Tower Shield - I assume your friend would say that he does not get a -2 penalty to attacks, a Max Dex Bonus, or a -10 to all dexterity checks. As for the flurry/no flurry stuff, I direct you to the troll hunter entry of the SRD. He gets his iterative attacks with his battleaxe, and then also the claw and bite from being a troll. Thus, as a monk and proficient with all parts of the body, you get your normal iterative (and flurried) attack routine followed by your secondary natural attacks. Troll Hunter has the ability to use a weapon as part of an attack sequence. A Dire Bear does not. If you wild shape into a Troll, you can do a flurry of kicks and then take your secondary attacks. You cannot do this as a Dire Bear. Read page 13 of the FAQ.
_m_ 11-02-06, 09:04 PM	swinging somewhat towards the original bit of the thread, how about tatooed monk?
Lomiat 11-02-06, 09:22 PM	I haven't played a monk, myself, but I've played extensively with a friend who's got a 12th level monk, and from playing with him and reviewing comments on this and other lists, it would seem that the most important thing for a monk is to figure out how to play tactically according to his or her table's needs. Monks seem to be a bit like bards: They're not the best at any given role, but they're highly adaptable. Depending on the buffs a party gives the monk, he or she can play spellcaster-assassin, grappler, tank or cork. As for the Unarmed Strike + natural attacks, that's a fun story: At my last convention, we got our monk up to 43 AC and 8 attacks as a hasted, heroic Annis Hag (plus Rend if he hit with both claws). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Iswald 11-02-06, 11:20 PM	As for the monk flurry, he's not using weapons. He's using his head, snout, elbows, and other various body parts like a monk would with an unarmed strike, and then claw/claw/bite after that. You're going to flurry with your snout? Isn't the nose one of the more sensitive parts of the body for most creatures? Then you're using the elbow? You realize that animals don't all have the flexibility that humans have? It was argued once that monks in animal forms should be able to flurry, since it's just a natural extension of what they were doing, mimicing animal forms for their attacks. But, a monk in an animal form attempting to flurry would be mimicing a human mimicing an animal. If you're in an animal form already, you don't need to do any mimicing, just use the natural attacks that you longed for to begin with.
_m_ 11-03-06, 12:05 AM	You're going to flurry with your snout? Isn't the nose one of the more sensitive parts of the body for most creatures? Then you're using the elbow? You realize that animals don't all have the flexibility that humans have? It was argued once that monks in animal forms should be able to flurry, since it's just a natural extension of what they were doing, mimicing animal forms for their attacks. But, a monk in an animal form attempting to flurry would be mimicing a human mimicing an animal. If you're in an animal form already, you don't need to do any mimicing, just use the natural attacks that you longed for to begin with. does anyone remember the chicken disguised as an elephant disguised as a chicken, from the old (aka: the good, not comercialised crap) sesame street?
fghj171983 11-03-06, 01:15 AM	This is some great info keep it coming guys and gals. :D As for the tattooed monk suggestion I don't really like the class that much. I don't think I gain much much by going that route. A friend of mine suggested I maybe try and go Nightsong Enforcer at high lvls so I can get Staggering Strike. Any thoughts?
Lomiat 11-03-06, 01:14 PM	I wouldn't recommend switching to Nightsong Enforcer. The high-level monk abilities are pretty sweet (except maybe the extra 10 ft of slowfall at 14th). Spell resistance at 13th level is fantastic, and the Quivering Palm ability at 15th looks like fun (though I've never seen anyone use it). At any rate, if you plan to take a non-monk level, I'd recommend you take a high Hit Die level at 1st (Bbn, Ftr, Pal, etc.) and then go straight monk.
Piuro 11-03-06, 01:39 PM	Well, I guess i'll be helpful. If you can get access, go Drunken Master, I know the Ch'tan monestary in the Duchy of Urnst allows you to go that route after a bit of time. Best part of this, is the metaorg that allows that doesnt have a regional requirement. If that doesnt mesh well, I recoment Enlightened Fist, as delivering fireballs at point blank range and being able to dodge the coming blast are a ton of fun. This is a little harder to get, and does go against the strength of the monk a bit. Enjoy.
fghj171983 11-03-06, 03:41 PM	Hmm yea Nightsong enforcer probly isnt worth it as you said the high lvl mnk abilities are pretty solid. I dont like drunken master though not really my style and the mechanics are weak. I am still thinking about enlighted fist. Though it doesnt seem like I gain enough from it especially now with the practiced spell caster not allowing you to qualify for it with only one sorc lvl. How does this look? I am not sure on what spells to take though... Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14 1 Mnk - Improved Stunning Fist, Combat Casting, Improved Init 2 Mnk - Combat Reflexes 3 Sor - Practiced Spellcaster 4 Sor - 5 Sor 6 E.F. - Wep. Foc. Unarmed 7 E.F. 8 E.F. 9 E.F. - Asestic Mage 10 E.F. 11 E.F. 12 E.F. -Improved Toughness??? 13 E.F. 14 E.F. 15 E.F. - Something???
Mommy was an Orc 11-03-06, 03:53 PM	Enlightened Fist isn't that bad. If anything, it is slightly more powerful in the end game when you go Monk 1/Sorc 4/Enlightened Fist 1. Important Spells: 1: Critical Strike, Chill Touch, Blades of Flame, Fist of Stone, Mage Armor 2: Alter Self, Bladeweave, False Life, Scorching Ray 3: Greater Magic Weapon 4: Polymorph Important Feats: Craft Wondrous, Ascetic Mage, and Arcane Strike. I also like Improved Grapple as the 1st level Human bonus feat.
jstorrie 11-03-06, 04:56 PM	Nightsong Enforcer is very good for tripper mutt-monks, as getting Opportunist synergizes very well with that sort of deal - you just need to build it properly. Fighter 1 or Ranger 1 / Monk 6 / Nightsong Enforcer x is the gold standard there in my opinion, as the armored dip allows you to dump Wis, and Monk 6 allows you to dump int. My usual approach there: Human Str18 Dex14 Con14 Int8 Wis8 Cha8 1 Fighter Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Dodge 2 Monk Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple 3 Monk Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line 4 Monk 5 Monk 6 Monk Mobility 7 Monk Improved Trip 8 Nightsong Enforcer 9 N. E. Defensive Throw 10 N. E. 11 N. E. 12 N. E. Elusive Target etc. This is a variant of one of MWaO's old builds, focusing on tripping, and can pull off some definite bowling-pin maneuvers if you correctly abuse Mobility/Elusive Target and Defensive Throw (deliberately provoking while your AC is high or un-hittable to get off several trips per round.) And, as I said, Opportunist. The main problem I find with monks is simply multiple attribute dependency, and by dipping an armor and reach-able class you can focus your stats more easily. Another equally useful variant of this starts with Fighter 2, instead, to pick up Defensive Throw at CL3 - a feat that is quite simply overpowered at that level. This requires you to build for Int 13, though, since you'd need to get Imp Trip 'the hard way.'
fghj171983 11-03-06, 06:01 PM	How does scorching ray work with Hold Ray from enlighted fist? Do I get only one ray? Or all of them?
Halworth 11-05-06, 12:01 PM	My very first LG character was a monk. I went Strength monk. Build to 16, + 2 racial(half orc) Stat bumps to 20, +6 Belt o' giant str to 26, Enlarged(+1) At 6th level I started the TWF chain. now at 11th level I have 7 attacks per round(with boots o speed) 2 from BAB 2 from flurry/gr flurry 2 TWF/ITWF 1 Boot o speed(only 10 rounds a day) (9 attacks at 15th lvl) My grapple check is 25, if you take a quick flip through the MM you can grapple about 90% of anything in there(a pin is usually a -9(or more) to the defenders AC see PHB p.151 table 8-6 for details) I have Grappled and Pinned a DR 15/- blood golem of Hextor(tried 7 time s a round!) At 12th lvl I plan to take the feat 'simple weapon prof" Per the FAQ a monk can flurry with a guantlet. Let me say it again, a monk CAN flurry with a guantlet, yes we know it is NOT a monk weapon--- you CAN still flurry with it, PER FAQ So I am now saving up for a Cold iron/shocking/holy/guantlet. 7 attacks per round, with a doing 2d8 +9 damage per attack and a to hit bouns of +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9 (hey that's almost tankish!) As for money, my monk always needs more! Belt o str + 6 Gloves of Dex +4(for TWF) Boots o speed Ring jumping(+40 to jump, think speed + str + skill points)) Ring o feather falling(what goes up must come down) 1-2 potions of Enlarge EVERY mod Decanter of endless water(useful against fire elemental- don't like to grapple, do grapple but don't like) Special access(still saving :( ) Tome of manual str +2 Uber guantlet, Holy/ghosttouch/shocking/whatever Pro's great speed and mobility, great damage, mutipke attcks, can grapple just about anything(very funny) no armor or weapons never drop you weapon or caught at a banquet with out weapons) Con's No armour, AC very low, like 16. Saves suck(for a monk) no other useful skills, knowledge check: tumble, anyone?
_m_ 11-05-06, 04:48 PM	maybe i misread... i always thought monk ac was kinda decent...
fghj171983 11-05-06, 05:59 PM	Thinking about being a Bright Sands character and taking Pharaoh's Fist or Scorpion's Grasp. Any thoughts on these feats? They both seem better than sunschool which I am thinking of not taking.
Shieldhart91 11-05-06, 07:05 PM	As a fellow Half-Orc Monk Grappler...if you truly wish to be a grappler: go with STR 15+, WIS 15+. Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike is required. When you pin a bad guy, +1d12, in addition to your unarmed strike damage. It helps, a lot. Get a Wand of Enlarge Person ASAP. Get scrolls of Bull's Strength. Have a Wizard/Sorcerer follow you, cast both on you. +4 to grapple, +2 because of Strength, and +2 STR becuase you are enlarged. Max damage. And they can't even run away
Tamanous 11-06-06, 08:06 PM	Half-orc Monk pumping Wis at 4, 8, and 12 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 6 Skills: Tumble, Listen, Spot (open to suggestions) Feats (open to suggestions but I would like to be a good stunner) 1 Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple(this feat is well worth taking, makes up for lower BAB) 2 Combat Reflexes (is this really worth it without a reach weapon? deflect arrows instead?) 3 Pain Touch - Very nifty feat 4 5 6 Improved Trip, Sun School (Is this worth taking? - Dont you need D-Door to get this feat? Flash of sunset or something) 7 8 9 Rapid Stunning 10 11 12 Power Attack or Improved Toughness??? - I'd take weakening touch instead, need 17 wis i think otherwise you could take it at 6th 13 14 15 Freezing the Lifeblood Overall I like the build, bear in mind monks dont do the damage of an 2h character, nor have the hit points to take a pounding. I've played with 2 different monks from 1-12, they can be useful with bard song, gmw ect to get their damage up, but there are some times they just suck :(
Halworth 11-06-06, 08:53 PM	maybe i misread... i always thought monk ac was kinda decent... There are two basic monk builds, by Level 10ish...... 1) Str monk EVERYTHING goes into str, AC standing and touch below 20 2) Finesse Monk, boost Wisdom, boost Dex, rings of protection, braces of armor, gloves of dex, dodge Standing AC and touch AC over 30.
_m_ 11-06-06, 09:25 PM	ah. cool.
clik_ml 11-07-06, 12:15 AM	My very first LG character was a monk. ... At 6th level I started the TWF chain. ... I have Grappled and Pinned a DR 15/- blood golem of Hextor(tried 7 times a round!) Now, if you're attacking outside of the grapples you have lots of attacks, but I'm not sure what you did with the blood golem there was strictly legal. Per the rules on grappling, you can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. I'm pretty sure that means no TWF+grapple checks, but the wording is definitely ambiguous and may just refer to attacking with weapons in a grapple. My notion is that if you can't TWF for attacks in a grapple, then you can't sub out those attacks for grapple checks. Have you ever encountered table variation on that or were most people not even aware that you can't attack with two weapons in a grapple?
solbergb 11-07-06, 03:54 PM	You can't TWF grapple but you can flurry grapple per the FAQ at most tables. That gives 5 opportunities. I'm not sure where the other two came from. I would never attempt TWF grappling, since the grapple rules forbid TWF in a grapple, and if you stick the grapple it's weird if your attack sequence mutates. I also would not allow it as a Judge. 5 is usually enough, if it can be grappled at all. My monk just hacks up blood golems with his golembane kama. The odds of just killing them with it in a two-three rounds is much higher than his odds of sticking a grapple or trip. (without help, he hits them on about an 6, if, as is typical, there is a flank, or they're grease-prone or whatever he often hits on a 2 ...he can reliably hit them 4 times a round with the kama, doing ~85 damage. If there are buffs going on or the 5th one hits or he busts out the capsule retainers...120ish damage is fairly typical). Those golems don't do that much damage to an individual, their big trick is whirlwind attack. Many golems are easily grappleable though. They aren't usually super strong for their size and the "half bab and no feats" characteristic of mindless constructs tends to keep things under control even if they've been advanced a bit.
Gelth 11-09-06, 12:20 PM	Having SR is more of a hindrance than a help most of the time, your party casts spells at you a lot more than the opponents do, and unless you take that Standard action to drop it for the round, they have to make the caster level checks too. A number of people seem not to be aware of this. The high-level Monk's best friend is a buffing caster who has taken Improved Spell Penetration, so that buffs can happen in combat reliably. --Penn, Ket Triad
_m_ 11-09-06, 10:33 PM	Having SR is more of a hindrance than a help most of the time, your party casts spells at you a lot more than the opponents do, and unless you take that Standard action to drop it for the round, they have to make the caster level checks too. A number of people seem not to be aware of this. The high-level Monk's best friend is a buffing caster who has taken Improved Spell Penetration, so that buffs can happen in combat reliably. --Penn, Ket Triad you can voluntarily fail spell resistance against friendly (or even hostile i think) spell resistance. i might be wrong, but i think its like voluntarily failing saves on friendlies. otherwise normal people would be forced to make saves when you say, polymorphed them (in other words, alot of spells have a will / harmless save, which you dont have to take)
DuctShuiTengu 11-09-06, 10:37 PM	you can voluntarily fail spell resistance against friendly (or even hostile i think) spell resistance. i might be wrong, but i think its like voluntarily failing saves on friendlies. otherwise normal people would be forced to make saves when you say, polymorphed them (in other words, alot of spells have a will / harmless save, which you dont have to take) You can voluntarily fail saves. SR, however, the caster has to beat for the spell to be effective, unless you turn it off.
Gwumph 11-10-06, 04:49 AM	I don't know if access is restricted (i will a rules lawyer tell us) but Super cool feat..... Improved Natural attack The FAQ explicitly states this feat works with a monks unarmed attacks. This mean if 1D8 as a monk, you know would do 2D6 as if you were a troll. Here's the kicker??? What happens if you are enlarged? Do you now do damage as a huge sized creature (3D6 i believe) Cheers Gwumph
Lupo 11-10-06, 05:31 AM	I don't know if access is restricted (i will a rules lawyer tell us) but Super cool feat..... Improved Natural attack The FAQ explicitly states this feat works with a monks unarmed attacks. This mean if 1D8 as a monk, you know would do 2D6 as if you were a troll. Here's the kicker??? What happens if you are enlarged? Do you now do damage as a huge sized creature (3D6 i believe) Cheers Gwumph sorry to spoil your cake, "improved natural attack" is NPC only in LG, according to p. 29 of the current LGCS. as a monk i would go for some other feats anyway. i do see the problem, that monks unarmed attacks can't be as easily enhanced as other fighter's weapons. some ways to overcome this: go for power critical or improved critical instead, the sheer number of attacks will give a monk more chances for a thread and any way to increase the successful criticals is a good way to increase overall damage. buy a scarab of golembane and switch to it when needed. my monk (3) was effective while enlarged with a quarterstaff and oil of shilellagh on it. have some backup weapons made from special material. just carry around a spiked chain, even when not proficient with it, one can use it for trip attacks. ciao martin m.
Halworth 11-12-06, 10:07 PM	Per the rules on grappling, you can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. I'm pretty sure that means no TWF+grapple checks, but the wording is definitely ambiguous and may just refer to attacking with weapons in a grapple. You sure can't ATTACK with TWF. But can you "convert" the total number attacks in a round into grapple checks? per the PHB p.156 Under Grappple checks "You can't ATTACK with two weapons while grappling, even if both are both are light weapons." As everyone knows grapple checks are NOT attacks and would not be limited by this statement--but this is a topic for another discussion(maybe I'll start it later) The 7 attacks were "touch" attacks to start the grapple. After I started the grapple I switched to no TWF attacks. it was only a matter of a pin after that.
solbergb 11-13-06, 03:32 PM	you will get severe table variation on TWF to establish a grapple. Most likely answers 1. Just don't try with your offhand attacks 2. your attack sequence ends if an offhand attack starts a grapple, because at that point you can't TWF