Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane Guyver 08-10-07, 02:04 PM	I'm gonna try to make a bard up for an upcoming game, and wasn't sure how effective it might be. NG Human (possibly Rhenee?) Bard Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 14 Feats: Extra Music, Toughness Skills: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy (2 ranks), Gather Information (2 ranks), Jump, Perform (singing), Tumble. Gear: Cold Iron Morningstar, Dagger, Heavy Wooden Shield, Light Crossbow (10 bolts, 10 silvered bolts), Longsword, Studded Leather, Spell Component Pouch, Whip, standard adventurer's kit (PH2), 34 gp, 8 sp, 10 cp. Spells Known: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Prestidigitation. Still working on things here. Unlike most characters, I'm focusing more on being effective in the short-term (relying on retraining and whatnot to make things better in the long term).
Reylance 08-10-07, 02:14 PM	There's no reason to start with two 15s when you could start with a 14 and a 16, receiving a +1 to checks involving one of those skills. Personally, I'd take two build points out of Constitution and make your Intelligence 10. Bards have lots of useful skills, and never have enough skill points. Climb, Jump (except for 5 ranks) and Swim are skills that aren't used much. If you want to play a character with physical skills for role-playing reasons, that's fine, but most bards make investments in skills like Diplomacy and Knowledges. Bards often invest five ranks in various skills for synergy bonuses, so decide if you want to be a jack-of-all-trades.
Zarron 08-10-07, 02:21 PM	I agree; bump up INT.
clik_ml 08-10-07, 02:40 PM	Just as a basic character building rule, having two stats at 15 is a bad idea. When that comes up you can always have 16/14 or 14/16 for the same price and with better or equal modifiers for the entire career. You could have Con 16/Cha 14 or Con 14 and Cha 16 for the same price. As for how effective you'll be. That depends upon what you want to do. The givens for all bards should be that they have inspire courage at level 2 (for +2/2 bard songs) and that they have at least minimal social skills (my bard gets by with basically 5 ranks in each social skill so far, but with a circlet of persuasion, synergies, charisma, half elf mods, and a meta-org, most social skills are in the +20 neighborhood). After that is squared away, do you want to contribute to combat in melee, archery, buffing other players + assist actions, or casting a small amount of debuff/enchantment spells? It looks like you have some small interest in being either melee-capable or possibly having a decent DC on spells. Pick an area of expertise then build appropriate feats and levels towards that goal. Sublime Chord's extra spell slots and higher level spells make a very nice end cap for your last 5 levels, and it is awfully hard for me to work up a build without inserting it. 3 Bard/1Fighter/1Bard/5 Spellsword/5 Sublime Chord will make a fairly tough meleeist who can channel his sublime chord spells into his weapon at high level. With Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, and Craft Wonderous Item all by 9th level you won't be too shabby. (can retrain Extra Music and Toughness into Power Attack and Improved Bullrush) 6 Bard/4 LyricThaumaturge/5 Sublime Chord makes a somewhat potent bard-caster with more slots and a few extra spells known. You still won't have the slots of a real caster, but with bardic music you will still contribute to combats even when out of spells. If you go with 16 charisma and Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus Enchantment your DCs will be quite acceptable at level 8 when you get Captivating Melody.
Demoyn 08-10-07, 02:43 PM	The majority of decision involving a fighter-style bard is in the spell selection. I agree to bring your int up, but your con isn't -quite- as important because you should suppliment your melee ability with illusion spells like displacement and mirror image. You could probably get by with a 12. Also, melodic casting would be a good feat for you. It lets you use a perform check instead of a concentration check, so it practically gives you a free skill (on top of the disgusting ability to both continue a bard song effect while casting/using magic items). Another very good feat option would be the one that allows you to up your armor to medium without taking the arcane failure chance.
TWG_Prometheus 08-10-07, 05:56 PM	I'm gonna try to make a bard up for an upcoming game, and wasn't sure how effective it might be. NG Human (possibly Rhenee?) Bard Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 15 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 15 Feats: Extra Music, Toughness Skills: Balance, Climb, Jump, Perform (singing), Swim, Tumble. Gear: Cold Iron Morningstar, Dagger, Heavy Wooden Shield, Light Crossbow (10 bolts, 10 silvered bolts), Longsword, Studded Leather, Spell Component Pouch, standard adventurer's kit (PH2), 35 gp, 8 sp, 10 cp. Spells Known: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Prestidigitation. Any suggestions? I normally wouldn't take Toughness, but I want this guy to be able to get into melee without dying from one hit (will probably take Improved Toughness later & retrain both Extra Music and Toughness for other things). I'll probably start pumping points into UMD a few levels in. I'll prolly put the 4th-level ability score into Con, 8th into Cha. I've found that the biggest trick to designing a bard is to ask yourself what else you want to do. Bards get their best tricks by default, (unlike a Fighter that has to pick all their tricks) most specifically the Bardsong. You can be sorta OK if you don't think beyond that, but your Bard will always end up looking anemic in such a case. Pick something else that you want to do with your Bard and design the whole build around that. As long as you take enough Bard levels to get what you want out of the Bardsong and sink in the requisite Perform ranks, you don't even have to pay attention to the rest. Example: Character A - I want to be a Bard! Singing and giving bonuses to my allies is cool! Character B - I want to be an archer, but I'd also like to be able to cast some spells and buff the entire party with my Bardsong. Character C - I like the idea of being able to enchant my enemies and cast cool illusions. Being a Bard will also give me something to do when those tricks don't work. Character D - The Bardsong would be a great way to help out my melee abilities. All of those characters except Character A can find a good path to do what they want and be effective. Character A doesn't have a plan beyond what his base class abilities give him and will likely end up being a poor, halfway design as a result. It's possible to back out of the fate of the Just-a-Bard once you're on that path, but it's tough. Plan in advance to be More-than-a-Bard. -------------- Since the OP has mentioned being in melee, I'm betting they'd like the Character D path. A 14 Con with Improved Toughness and a Constitution amulet will likely be enough to meet your needs. I wouldn't invest more than 14 into Con, Dex, or Charisma, and maybe not even that much in Charisma really. (Note that while Bards get a ton of benefit from Charisma, they don't really need all that much to be at a basic functional level) What a Melee Bard will generally need is Strength. The following statistic array would likely work better on a melee-centric Bard: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12 Take a look at the Warchanter PrC. I'd recommend going into the PrC after level 8 so you can pick up the +2 base Bardsong. (+3 with Inspirational Boost)
Mommy was an Orc 08-10-07, 09:17 PM	Example: Character A - I want to be a Bard! Singing and giving bonuses to my allies is cool! Character B - I want to be an archer, but I'd also like to be able to cast some spells and buff the entire party with my Bardsong. Character C - I like the idea of being able to enchant my enemies and cast cool illusions. Being a Bard will also give me something to do when those tricks don't work. Character D - The Bardsong would be a great way to help out my melee abilities. Actually, I'd want Character A in any given party before the other 3. Especially with someone playing a Bard for the first time. I've seen far too many first time Bard players fail to do either Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, or Haste as one of their first actions - if you're not doing that at least 90% of the time, something's wrong or you really know what you're doing. It isn't flashy, but it is phenomenally effective.
Arcane Guyver 08-10-07, 09:38 PM	Thanks for all the feedback. I now realize that two 15's is kinda dumb; lowering Cha for Int is a valid choice, actually, because it'll get me Concentration (so I can keep singing despite getting hit). As far as 'what kind of bard' I want to play, a combination of A & D. Boost my allies, and then get into melee (kind of a cleric-ish approach). The low HD and AC capabilities of the bard makes me want to make sure my Constitution is decently high. To be honest, this is more of an experiment than anything, trying to make a more physically combative bard who neglects social skills, and seeing if it'll work out or not.
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 10:55 PM	Actually, I'd want Character A in any given party before the other 3. Especially with someone playing a Bard for the first time. I've seen far too many first time Bard players fail to do either Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, or Haste as one of their first actions - if you're not doing that at least 90% of the time, something's wrong or you really know what you're doing. It isn't flashy, but it is phenomenally effective. You're missing the point. Types B-D can and will probably also do that since it's best for the party. But after 2 rounds of buffing...then what? Type A has nothing else to do while B-D can keep on contributing with other stuff. He's not saying that the primary purpose of B-D is not to buff. He's saying that buffing comes naturally to Bards of any type and one should look to contribute in rounds 3+. Cedric
CdrcJsn 08-10-07, 10:57 PM	As far as 'what kind of bard' I want to play, a combination of A & D. Boost my allies, and then get into melee (kind of a cleric-ish approach). The low HD and AC capabilities of the bard makes me want to make sure my Constitution is decently high. To be honest, this is more of an experiment than anything, trying to make a more physically combative bard who neglects social skills, and seeing if it'll work out or not. check out: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/message/21958
clik_ml 08-10-07, 11:37 PM	I play a type "D" bard. I still throw down an Inspire Courage+Inspirational Boost at the start of pretty much any combat, or anything that looks like it is about to be a combat (6 musics per day lets you be pretty liberal with them). Usually I get them off in a surprise round (feign surprise if need be). TWG is definitely correct in that you need to be "more than a bard" at some point. My bard is only 6th level (though he adeptly plays APL 8's) so my experience for their high-level play is only theoretical... Once you start bumping into level 9+ clerics, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is really going to deflate much of the usefulness of a bard. It pretty much replicates +3 inspire courage+haste for melee types. Archers will still to get their song and such on, but meleeists just won't care anymore. So a bard definitely needs to start diversifying by APL 10 or so. I love sublime chord for this reason, since the spells can really let you have a large number of options (battlefield control, save or suck, better buffs, etc). Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness is another option for being more than just a bard at APL 10+. I'd suggest against utterly neglecting the social skills as a bard. It doesn't take a whole lot of ranks to be effective in them. A modest investment can net impressive modifiers. Also it may become tiresome explaining to tables that your bard isn't bringing the social prowess they're expecting during musters. I'm hesitant to even bother maxing out my social ranks since many of those DCs aren't tiered anyway, and it seems pointless for me to walk around with +40 diplomacy and gather infos. +20's do fine for me.
Mommy was an Orc 08-11-07, 12:09 AM	You're missing the point. Types B-D can and will probably also do that since it's best for the party. But after 2 rounds of buffing...then what? Type A has nothing else to do while B-D can keep on contributing with other stuff. He's not saying that the primary purpose of B-D is not to buff. He's saying that buffing comes naturally to Bards of any type and one should look to contribute in rounds 3+. Cedric I'm not missing the point. Type A Bards that do that 2 rounds of buffing are always useful. They mathematically contribute more than their fair share by just those two rounds - they cast some spells on top, that's icing on the cake. I've never been with a type A that wasn't useful, even with players who otherwise had no idea what they were doing. And then they almost have to be useful out of combat. That's not true for types B-D, especially when the player is inexperienced with how Bards work. Instead of doing those two rounds, they look to start either with just a round or worse, not buffing the party at all. They're the bards that give bards a bad reputation. Yes, there are players that can make it work well with a round, but you're not the typical player...
CdrcJsn 08-11-07, 02:48 AM	I think we're confusing two different things here...builds and playstyles. The poster with the list of Bard archetypes was talking about builds. You're talking about how a person plays his character, either acting as a party buffer or doing something else. The point that TWG_Prometheus was trying to get across was, even if your playstyle is to buff the party as your primary action, you need to come up with something else once you do that, and that it doesn't matter how you build your bard. Any single classed Bard, no matter how they're built, has the capacity to buff the party as effectively as one who just builds a bard to buff and nothing else. So why limit yourself?
Mommy was an Orc 08-11-07, 10:20 AM	The point that TWG_Prometheus was trying to get across was, even if your playstyle is to buff the party as your primary action, you need to come up with something else once you do that, and that it doesn't matter how you build your bard. Any single classed Bard, no matter how they're built, has the capacity to buff the party as effectively as one who just builds a bard to buff and nothing else. So why limit yourself? It isn't limiting yourself. The huge problem with inexperienced players of Bards is that they don't buff the party as their primary action, but instead try to pull off some kind of combat routine that they don't understand fully - because they've invested points into being some other kind of bard. And they often start the combat part of the combat routine a round earlier than they ought to be doing. I'd rather have a Bard who buffs first and then doesn't know what to do than a Bard who consistently does something other than buff on the 1st round of combat. And I've played with both of those types of players - ever play a Core Special, fight something with hardness with 4 melee types and a bard, and the bard starts throwing acid flasks because acid defeats hardness? I have. A Bard who takes a 16 Charisma and bumps Charisma will have a selection of spells that they can use after buffing. And they will be a lot better than a 14 Charisma Bard who bumps some other stat at sticking those spells. The problem with buffing Bards is that the players get intimidated into questioning why they're buffing first, casting offensive spells second. Then they screw up their routine.
CdrcJsn 08-11-07, 11:33 AM	TWG is recommending Warchanter. The songs Warchanter gets are broken good, worth giving up Haste since other party members can cast that.
Arcane Guyver 08-11-07, 02:24 PM	:) I totally forgot about the Warchanter. That sounds perfect.
Mommy was an Orc 08-11-07, 02:58 PM	:) I totally forgot about the Warchanter. That sounds perfect. Just be aware that means you need a 13 Int, WF(something), and Combat Expertise. To a certain extent, Bard isn't really even an essential focus for Warchanter - a Dwarf Bard 1/Fighter 4 with a 6 Charisma can easily qualify. You want to get into Warchanter by 6th, not by 9th.
Banor 08-11-07, 06:55 PM	If you are interested in a Bard-like character with a focus on melee I suggest http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=888624 going great so far. Good synergy between abilities, great supporting abilities, decent fighting and out of combat utility via Diplomacy.
pupz 08-11-07, 10:57 PM	half elf str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 10 wis 12 ch 14 diplomacy specialist out of combat, support in combat, light infantry 1 bard skill focus ( diplomacy ) 2 bard inspiration boost 3 cleric of Roa domains : mind and community feat: negotiator 4 barbarian cha + 1 5 bard 6 bard extra rage ( tongues as second level spell ) 7 marshal minor motivate Dex Feat divine vigor or your choice 8 marshal cha + 1 motivate attack at 9 you could go outcast champion for 5 or dragon dissciple for 4 or more bard or access prestige class if available by level 3 or 4 you can have a +20 Diplomacy if you get the synergies of bluff -- knowledge nobility --- sense motive
The_Jester 08-12-07, 12:01 PM	Example: Character A - I want to be a Bard! Singing and giving bonuses to my allies is cool! I play a pretty decent A bard. As a gnome I got nothing for damage and know that but buffing/healing/debuffing can really turn fights. I start off with an inspirational boosted bardsong with a masterwork horn. +3 right there. But I also just made 8th level so that's a +4 to attacks and damage. Dump a haste and it's +5 attack and +4 damage. Then plenty of spells left to grease or glitterdust the badguys.
Genghis Cohen 08-12-07, 12:40 PM	I play a pretty decent A bard. As a gnome I got nothing for damage and know that but buffing/healing/debuffing can really turn fights. I start off with an inspirational boosted bardsong with a masterwork horn. +3 right there. But I also just made 8th level so that's a +4 to attacks and damage. Dump a haste and it's +5 attack and +4 damage. Then plenty of spells left to grease or glitterdust the badguys.That's the type of bard that I like to play with! I remember playing a mod with a bard, in a 4 person party, who thought that he was a tank with ranks in Intimidate. In the final encounter, it was pretty obvious that a diplomatic solution was on the table. The bard decided to talk smack. My 8 charisma archer jumped in and tried the diplomacy thing in a way that was really beyond his capabilities (OK, I was metagaming with all of the pop-psychology that I've learned from years of sales training.) The DM allowed me to make the diplomacy roll, but I couldn't make it. The bard charged. Combat began. The bard did very little damage. After a few rounds, the DM was kind enough to allow my now tanking archer to drag the dead body of the bard out of the unsuccessful final encounter.
Sieylianna 08-12-07, 01:27 PM	half elf 1 bard skill focus ( diplomacy ) 2 bard inspiration boost 3 cleric of Roa domains : mind and community feat: negotiator 4 barbarian cha + 1 5 bard 6 bard extra rage ( tongues as second level spell ) I don't think it's going to work very well. Once you rage, you shut down all your bard abilities (I'd have to look at marshal to see if it has the same issue). Bardic music is the main benefit of a bard and you are going to lose it when you rage. Ed
pupz 08-12-07, 02:57 PM	the marshall once active is ok as a long allies hear you and understand you Bard music does stop 5 rounds after the rage begins or stop singing.... but barbarian is weapon profiencies extra hit points and 40 foot movement for the half elf .... even without the rage... but rage is a nice extra to have for when you need it... Sometime the Greatsword is mightier then the song.....
CdrcJsn 08-12-07, 05:51 PM	I start off with an inspirational boosted bardsong with a masterwork horn. You are aware that with a MW horn, your inspire courage only lasts for 1 round after you stop, instead of the normal 5 rounds? If I wanted to boost damage, I would just go with the Drums which doesn't cut duration short, but only provides an extra point of damage. Most of the time though, I just stick with Oratory to keep my hands free for weapon and spellcasting.
Frumpkis 08-12-07, 07:47 PM	I play a pretty decent A bard. As a gnome I got nothing for damage and know that but buffing/healing/debuffing can really turn fights. I start off with an inspirational boosted bardsong with a masterwork horn. +3 right there. But I also just made 8th level so that's a +4 to attacks and damage. Dump a haste and it's +5 attack and +4 damage. Then plenty of spells left to grease or glitterdust the badguys. By the criteria that TWG listed in his post, you wouldn't be an 'A' bard. An 'A' bard is one who strictly does bardsongs and buffs, and maybe some healing if necesary. An 'A' bard definitely avoids offensive actions. At least, that's the way I classify it in my head. I'd say you're either a 'C' bard (enchantment & illusion spellcasting), or another category altogether. Maybe we need a fifth category: an 'E' bard, one who casts debuffs and screw-'em-up spells (not necessarily enchantments, although it could include that, but more stuff like Glitterdust, Grease, Slow, etc) as well as doing bardsongs.
DuctShuiTengu 08-12-07, 09:35 PM	I think we're confusing two different things here...builds and playstyles. The poster with the list of Bard archetypes was talking about builds. You're talking about how a person plays his character, either acting as a party buffer or doing something else. The point that TWG_Prometheus was trying to get across was, even if your playstyle is to buff the party as your primary action, you need to come up with something else once you do that, and that it doesn't matter how you build your bard. Any single classed Bard, no matter how they're built, has the capacity to buff the party as effectively as one who just builds a bard to buff and nothing else. So why limit yourself? To a certain extent, I have to agree with MWaO on this one. Yes, the type B-D builds are going to be more powerful. However, for a player who's new to bards, I'd probably be happier with one who's chosen the Type A bard. Sure, they may stop and twiddle their tumbs after they've finished their couple rounds of buffing the party, but they're also less likely to skip throwing up those buffs to do something less useful. Now, with more experienced bard players, I'm going to be happier with the B-D types, because they have something else to do after they finish buffing the party and I'm more willing to trust them to realize how much those buffs are doing and compare that against how much they'd accomplish with other actions before deciding to charge during the first round. With the new player, I'd just as soon not put that temptation infront of them. (This is the same reason why I generally don't use the builds that MWaO puts together. They're powerful, but a lot of that comes from synergies between feats and class features that I won't spot. If I'm only getting half the effectiveness out of the build, I'd be better off with something that's only 2/3s as good, but I can get the full value out of it.)
Mommy was an Orc 08-12-07, 09:35 PM	By the criteria that TWG listed in his post, you wouldn't be an 'A' bard. An 'A' bard is one who strictly does bardsongs and buffs, and maybe some healing if necesary. An 'A' bard definitely avoids offensive actions. At least, that's the way I classify it in my head. That's classifying a type of player, not a build. There's no reason an 'A' bard shouldn't have Glitterdust as a spell known - and because they're investing in Charisma, they're the most likely to stick the spell except for perhaps the enchanter type. There are a lot of bad players of Bards - they're a magnet for the 'I want to Roleplay, not rollplay in LG' types. While it might be ideal to do Inspire Courage, Haste, and Inspire Greatness as fast as possible, they want to do something new and exciting in each combat - and that absolutely kills their effectiveness. Why would the mod writer put a chandelier in a room if the Bard wasn't meant to swing from it?
Rerednaw 08-13-07, 10:29 AM	Guilty of roleplaying here. I realize it wasn't an optimal decision, but I took SF: Perform just because of his concept as a wandering story-teller. :) I play a type 'A' bard. I tend to stick to vanilla-single classes, at least for my first try at a class. I still think a bard x has quite a bag of tricks to pull from, if the party lets you that is. I saw my character as more of a buffer/back up healer. However, given the unpredictability of PUGs, I sometimes find myself tanking or primary healer. In fact, the last mod I played had a short party (4 pcs total) I ended being a backup tank and main healer (2 arcanes, 1 fighter and I). While playing up. So I'd definitely consider a back-up role for your character, because sooner or later, you'll find yourself in that role, even if you aren't suited for it. Given that, I think planning for a back-up tank (which seems to be what you wanted anyway) is easiest. With Improvisation, you have a ready reserve of bonuses, and if you dump a feat (and the int) into Combat Expertise, the AC for the couple of rounds while the healers bring the main tank back online. Weapon focus if you really are considering warchanter. Or Power Attack for the damage. One more point, if you stick bard x (my plan) at mid to high levels, after Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness and Haste taking your first 3 rounds you'll find combat is usually over by the 4th round. So you may melee, but probably not for very long. In any case, good luck with your build.
Infinitive 08-13-07, 11:09 AM	Well, since we're throwing around our collective two cents about bards, I'll add mine in. At lower APLs (and higher ones, depending on how the bard has evolved himself), I LOVE having a bard hanging around, because a focused bard can be the one of the most effective melee combat controllers in the game. This, in many ways, comes as a direct result of one thing: Whip proficiency as a class feature. A lot of people pass over that bonus because the whip generally doesn't deal damage. However, allow me to give you an example of exactly why I love bards (and I'll even use an exceptionally mediocre stat spread to emphasize things): Human Bard 1 Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 14 Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm (Or Imp. Trip, your call). Buy yourself armor spikes and a masterwork whip after your first module. Here's what you get: A Disarm/Trip check of +9 at a range of 15 feet (+4 for the feat, +2 for the whip, +3 for 2Hing the whip). You threaten all squares around you (Armor spikes are fun!). A +3 modifier on your touch attacks to initiate either your Imp Trip or Imp Disarm. Cower behind the fighter if you so please. Your whole job is to much up combat for opponents, making it next to impossible to actually accomplish anything. Tripping turns them into a dramatically less effective fighting force, and will often put your enemies into a position where it's fight at -4 or die to multiple AoOs from standing. Alternately, disarming a target every turn is basically the same as a Slow or better; they have to burn a move action to draw a weapon, which reduces them to a single attack when they actually do swing. That's presuming they have a spare, of course. And if you still want to be the mega-party face, make your Bard into a Marshal/Bard. They work together very well thanks to Perform (Oratory).
TWG_Prometheus 08-13-07, 11:16 AM	For what it's worth, Cedric understood my intent correctly when I posted the Bard types. While it may possibly have been foolish to do so, I was operating under the assumption that the Bard player in question understood the power of Inspire Courage and their other bardic music abilities and would use them appropriately. Given that assumption, a character with 3+ levels in Bard (I prefer 8) and ~12 base Charisma can do most anything that their party will need from them in the Bardsong and/or buffing category, independent from the rest of their build. The remainder of the character design (feats, attribute points, prestige classes, level dipping) can safely be devoted toward being something other than a type A Bard. That's all I was really trying to say. But yeah, you have to play a Bard right in order for any Bard build to pay off.
UMiskatonic 08-13-07, 01:07 PM	I play a type "D" bard. Once you start bumping into level 9+ clerics, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is really going to deflate much of the usefulness of a bard. Actually, I have a 9+ cleric, and I'm thrilled to see a bard in the party. Because that means I can dump Bless and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and take other spells. There's no shortage of useful alternatives, like True Seeing, Resurgence, etc. Clerics are massively versatile in terms of spell selection, and shouldn't be doing what other party members can do more effectively.
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-07, 01:18 PM	Given that assumption, a character with 3+ levels in Bard (I prefer 8) and ~12 base Charisma can do most anything that their party will need from them in the Bardsong and/or buffing category, independent from the rest of their build. Except that's not true. If you start off with a 12 base charisma, it means it is improbable that you're casting 2nd level spells at 4th - especially if you're funding a melee build who has other things to invest in besides a Charisma Cloak +2. It makes it almost impossible that you'll cast 3rd level spells at 7th, as you'll need a Charisma Cloak +4. Not being able to cast spells of a particular level when you ought to be able to do so, means you're not going to be as an effective buffer - you simply won't be able to cast Haste as a Bard 7 ought to be able to do. At Bard 8, you won't be able to cast it twice in the same day. This is especially true of builds where they need to somehow take Combat Expertise at 6th and have an odd Strength score and a 12 Int. That implies the build is buying a +2 Headband at late 5th. The big advantage though of Bard A and not starting with a 12 base charisma is that you'll have the ability to stick your spells. A 22 Charisma at 8th/9th is not out of the question for a Bard A. I don't know how a Bard A is not picking up a spell such as Glitterdust - that's not a build decision, that's the player has no clue problem. And if they're that kind of player, they're not smart enough to consistently buff at the start of combat.
TWG_Prometheus 08-13-07, 03:47 PM	You're describing a Type C Bard though. Maybe the spells aren't Enchantments or Illusions, but it's still a dedicated spellcasting/buffing Bard. I think the Type A Bard is getting misunderstood. Type A doesn't have a plan and he never really did. He wanted to make a Bard, and that's about all he did. A Type A Bard isn't a 'buffing Bard'. It's a Bard without a clue about what to do with the class. He saw the Bardsong or the skill package or the picture in the PHB or read an Inspire Courage math thread...or something...thought that it was cool and made a Bard. A Type D Bard with 12 Charisma can match the Type A Bard in buffing power because the Type A Bard doesn't really have a clue and isn't going anywhere. If you're a bard that wants to Haste/Glitter/Bardsong/ect, you're not Type A. You know what you want to do besides be Just-A-Bard. In effect, you're a Bard-Arcanist if you're doing those spells, which might not exactly match a Type C, but it's close enough for my definitions. Maybe it's a Type E that I didn't enumerate or think about in the earlier post. You're not a Type A if you have a plan. That's all I was trying to say. I don't particularly care what your plan is, but you've got to have one.
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-07, 04:13 PM	You're describing a Type C Bard though. Maybe the spells aren't Enchantments or Illusions, but it's still a dedicated spellcasting/buffing Bard. I think the Type A Bard is getting misunderstood. Type A doesn't have a plan and he never really did. He wanted to make a Bard, and that's about all he did. That's not a build. That's a player. It really shouldn't be hard for a clueless player to end up with a 15-16 starting charisma, level it, and buy Charisma Cloaks. They want to do that. The problem with such players is not that they only buff. It is that they often cast when they should Inspire and Inspire when they ought to cast. And sometimes, they don't do either of them. Believe me, you'd still want such players playing Bard A over Bard B through D - that way, they don't get themselves killed or drag the party into a TPK by doing something really stupid.
Lightblade 08-13-07, 04:20 PM	Back to the OP's question: Does your region give access to bard racial sub levels / alternate class features? If not, you may want to look into starting a bard with the Greyhawk Ruins sitting, and trade bardic lore (useful, but by no means essential) for either Bardic Knack or Lore Song, which are both quite solid abilities. Also, just like for sorcs, spell selection is very important. Certain spells are must haves for bards: I'd put Inspirational Boost, Glitterdust, and Haste on that list. The rest depend on your play style and build. Some bards swear by the Cure spells, others get by with a happy stick. Feat selection is important, and retraining is helpful. Even if you don't go Lyric T, Melodic casting is a great feat. Extra song is very nice at 1st level, and still worthwhile at 3rd if you pick up Lyric spell. Once you have more spellslots than you know what to do with, you can retrain them out, or instead go Metamagic Song.
Frumpkis 08-13-07, 10:04 PM	That's classifying a type of player, not a build. There's no reason an 'A' bard shouldn't have Glitterdust as a spell known - and because they're investing in Charisma, they're the most likely to stick the spell except for perhaps the enchanter type. There are a lot of bad players of Bards - they're a magnet for the 'I want to Roleplay, not rollplay in LG' types. While it might be ideal to do Inspire Courage, Haste, and Inspire Greatness as fast as possible, they want to do something new and exciting in each combat - and that absolutely kills their effectiveness. Why would the mod writer put a chandelier in a room if the Bard wasn't meant to swing from it? It's ironic that you say I'm talking about playstyles and not builds, when you're doing the same (sorry if that sounds flame-y, it's not meant to be). A good player, regardless of class or build, thinks tactically and reacts to what's going on on the battlemap in front of him. Sure, the Inspire Courage-Haste-Inspire Greatness combo is powerful, and is a good choice (often the best choice) many a times, but I think you overstate it's importance. A player who remains slavishly devoted to doing this combo in the first 3 rounds of combat, and refuses to deviate from this routine, is being myopic in the extreme. If you're facing a hydra at low APL, what is more important as a first-round action for a bard? Adding to the party's attack and damage via Inspire Courage, or minimizing the hydra's many attacks by blinding it via Glitterdust? Having been in this exact situation with my bard, I know which one I'd choose. If you're facing an evil cultist who's about to complete his Spell of Utter Doom, should you spend your first action Inspire-Couraging or Hasting the low-initiative frontliners? Or would it be more important to shut down the caster via an area Silence, or to use your whip to disarm him of his spell component pouch? Again, I know which choice I'd make. The point is, yes, adding to the party's attack and damage bonuses is statistically sound and powerful, and the vast majority of the time, it is the bard's (any bard's) best opening move. But sometimes increasing attack and damage isn't the most important tactical objective. A bard with spells, or a bard with a whip (just to use two examples), has so many more options open to him that aren't about simply adding to the party's damage output. Ignoring these abilities is the sign of a weak and inexperienced player.
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-07, 10:27 PM	It's ironic that you say I'm talking about playstyles and not builds, when you're doing the same (sorry if that sounds flame-y, it's not meant to be). That's my point exactly - we're comparing apples and oranges - the hypothetical bard who always buffs, yet does nothing else in combat. I've yet to see one of those in play - they either buff first, then start trying to help out tactically or they just suck. Btw, as a very important point for anyone contemplating a Bard in LG - make sure you have a table tent with your bonuses on it and hold it up every single time someone is attacking someone. You'd be absolutely surprised by just how much more powerful that makes Bards. Especially in the eyes of players who think Bards suck(as they always seem to be the people who'd otherwise forget to add in the bonus)
Arcane Guyver 08-14-07, 02:02 AM	Updated things a bit. (Whips only cost 1 gp! Did not know that.) If things don't work out, I'll just dump this character and try something a bit more standard. As for what sort of spells I'll take in the future and whatever...well, I'll get there when I get there. :) And from the home games I DM, I'm well aware at the power of the 'table tent.' ;) "Out of sight, out of mind"...so keep them bonuses in plain view!
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 02:14 AM	It isn't limiting yourself. The huge problem with inexperienced players of Bards is that they don't buff the party as their primary action, but instead try to pull off some kind of combat routine that they don't understand fully - because they've invested points into being some other kind of bard. And they often start the combat part of the combat routine a round earlier than they ought to be doing. I'd rather have a Bard who buffs first and then doesn't know what to do than a Bard who consistently does something other than buff on the 1st round of combat. And I've played with both of those types of players - ever play a Core Special, fight something with hardness with 4 melee types and a bard, and the bard starts throwing acid flasks because acid defeats hardness? I have. A Bard who takes a 16 Charisma and bumps Charisma will have a selection of spells that they can use after buffing. And they will be a lot better than a 14 Charisma Bard who bumps some other stat at sticking those spells. The problem with buffing Bards is that the players get intimidated into questioning why they're buffing first, casting offensive spells second. Then they screw up their routine. Just because it's irking me a bit, I'd like to mention that acid DOES NOT INGORE HARDNESS. It's just that sonic and acid damage are not halved or quatered like other energy types. They do full damage but are still subject to hardness.
Mommy was an Orc 08-14-07, 09:30 AM	Just because it's irking me a bit, I'd like to mention that acid DOES NOT INGORE HARDNESS. It's just that sonic and acid damage are not halved or quatered like other energy types. They do full damage but are still subject to hardness. Actually, Acid is halved, too. That's my point - the bard in question was told that, and he still didn't quite get it. One of those tables where my 2nd level character playing up 2 in a Core Special was either the 2nd or 3rd most valuable member of the party - along with Paul's Centaur and Joe's Cleric. And the Bard wasn't actually the most useless member of the party.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 11:36 AM	Actually, Acid is halved, too. That's my point - the bard in question was told that, and he still didn't quite get it. One of those tables where my 2nd level character playing up 2 in a Core Special was either the 2nd or 3rd most valuable member of the party - along with Paul's Centaur and Joe's Cleric. And the Bard wasn't actually the most useless member of the party. Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. So acid is not halved normally, unless the thing you were attacking specifically said it halved acid damage.
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 01:44 PM	By the literal wording there... wouldn't acid and sonic ignore hardness after all? -karma
Nutation 08-14-07, 02:47 PM	By the literal wording there... wouldn't acid and sonic ignore hardness after all? For clarification of that, you must turn to the FAQ, which (these days) says that all energy attacks subtract hardness.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 02:54 PM	By the literal wording there... wouldn't acid and sonic ignore hardness after all? -karma Not at all. Applying it normally would mean not halving or quartering, and then applying hardness like against everything else. Hardness applies against absolutely everything except for that which eplicitly states it is ignored, such as by adamantine weapons against hardness less than 20, which I think is the only thing in the whole game that does so...
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 04:11 PM	Well, the FAQ aside (arguing wording here)... All the other energy attacks in the same paragraph specifically state "divide the damage dealt by X before applying the hardness". Sonic and Acid does not have the same language, they state "roll damage and apply it normally". From the changes in language it could be interpreted as being intentionally different, that you do NOT apply hardness vs sonic and acid. But the FAQ sets it in stone, so I suppose the point is moot. -karma
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 05:05 PM	Well, the FAQ aside (arguing wording here)... All the other energy attacks in the same paragraph specifically state "divide the damage dealt by X before applying the hardness". Sonic and Acid does not have the same language, they state "roll damage and apply it normally". From the changes in language it could be interpreted as being intentionally different, that you do NOT apply hardness vs sonic and acid. But the FAQ sets it in stone, so I suppose the point is moot. -karma I can understand the argument, but on the flip side, those energy types need to have is specified when hardness applies because it will affect the ammount of damage if it's halved before or after hardness is applied. Acid and Sonic are not halved so there is no need to include a statement about when hardness applies.
Mommy was an Orc 08-14-07, 06:53 PM	So acid is not halved normally, unless the thing you were attacking specifically said it halved acid damage. Hmm. Not that it mattered - the hardness was 10.