Fixing a Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing a Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trollbill
11-06-06, 02:36 PM My 12-year-old daughter has been playing a skill-based Halfling Rogue in LG. Her typical actions in combat were to fire here crossbow for the sneak attack, then ride into battle on her riding dog. This worked at low level, but she's up to 5th and closing on 6th now and the riding dog is no longer the tough creature it used to be. So being a 12-year-old she has naturally taken to combat stratagies that protect the dog, mostly riding around and shooting with her crossbow. Needless to say, this isn't very effective at this level after the initial sneak attack. She doesn't want to get rid of the dog, but she doesn't want it to die either, so I am trying to find a way of making her more effective in combat (cause sometimes we really need her to be).

She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following:

6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal)
7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead)
8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow])
9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available)
10th-16th Rogue

The Weapon Finesse would allow her to hit consistantly in melee after her initial sneak attack shot. Swashbuckler and Ranger give her some useful fighting abilities without costing her too much in the way of skills. The beastmaster gives her an addiquate mount. Add in mounted combat and it should keep the dog alive most of the time. Hopefully improving her combat ability will mean the monsters will see her as the threat, not the dog, and attack her until she gets up to 9th, but it will still be vulneralbe to AoE attackes until then.

The only faster route I see for her on this would be:

6th - Druid (Skill Focus - Handle Animal)
7th - Beastmaster

But she'd be giving up a lot of personal combat ability to do this.

Any other suggestions?
JamesMaissen
11-06-06, 02:54 PM She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following:

6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal)
7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead)
8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow])
9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available)
10th-16th Rogue

Any other suggestions?

Its always tough to change midstreams. You may wish to have her try to use the dog as a poorman's spring attack using reach weapons for melee, and rely upon alchemical items (via quickdraw) for missle fire.

I would not dip out of rogue more than 2 levels (and thus 1d6 sneak down).

But I would see what she is looking the character to do and how she would have fun with it, etc. THEN make choices and take that in mind when you do, as panick'd I have to fix this choices lead to more mistakes and thus more panic.

Also try the lgchardiscussion board for suggestions once you get the full sense of what she wants to do and what she's not happy with.

-James
Howie23
11-06-06, 03:35 PM She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following:

6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal)
7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead)
8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow])
9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available)
10th-16th Rogue

The only faster route I see for her on this would be:

6th - Druid (Skill Focus - Handle Animal)
7th - Beastmaster

At APL10, an animal companion at effective druid 4 or 5 (assuming no NatBond) is going to be no more effective than the unmodified dog is now at APL6. She's focused on archery now...keep at it.

She either needs to find ways to get more sneaks (invisibility, grease, stun, etc), more attacks (BAB, rapid shot, haste), or bigger damage on the attacks (sonic weapon, flame arrow, bow enchantments), or all of the above. Mounted Combat/Archery will help protect the dog, too, via Ride checks and more effective Parthian Shot tactics (ride in, shoot full round, ride out).

I'd look at a couple of levels of Ftr or Rgr, depending on preference, in order to pick up Rapid Shot and maybe another combat effective feat. I'd go with ranger in order to get the Ride skill up. Ride is c.c. for rogue, and fighter doesn't give much in skills.

If she does go the animal companion route...check her H.A. skill, as there's a good chance that a single level of druid won't give the skill points to get both Survival 4 ranks and Handle Animal 8 ranks, as any H.A. she has right now has been cross class.

David
UMiskatonic
11-06-06, 04:28 PM Ok, I can see a lot of ways around this.

1) I agree with the above, stick with archery. When multiple attacks are available (haste, Bab +6) a crossbow is a liability. Either she'll need the rapid reload feat, a reloading crossbow, or a longbow. I recommend the third with all my power.

1b) That longbow should be as cool as you can make it. Elemental damage is very good to have, as is holy. Be able to get past DR with cold iron, silver, adamantine arrows and oil of bless weapon. I'd expect an archer to spend about half of her total wealth on one good bow and a bunch of arrows. You shouldn't need defense much, cuz you can always ride away, and you shouldn't ever be close to anybody.

2) Swashbuckler doesn't help. Weapon Finesse is for melee, the exact opposite of what an archer should be doing.

3) I recommend taking levels of ranger. It's good for skills, has ride and handle animal for class skills, and gives track, which is something that she should have anyway.

With rapid shot, she'll have three attacks a round at 8th level (rogue 5/ranger 3 or rogue 6/ranger 2). That's solid even without sneak attack.

4) You -did- buy barding for the dog already, right? It turns out dogs can wear amulets as well, if you have cash to spare.

5) Ride something else. It could be an animal companion, which you've already looked at. You could take the paladin-rogue feat and get a special mount. You could buy a bronze griffon or a carpet of flying. You could take the leadership feat, and get a dog cohort.

If your Triad doesn't allow some kind of special dog cohort, take a druid, have it turn into a dog, and then ride it around.

6) Take levels of halfling outrider. It's MEANT for a dog-riding halfling.

7) Mounted combat allows you to negate attacks on the dog with a ride check. A skill-based halfling should be able to get something impressive, especially with a 19 Dex.

8) Buy a lance. It's double damage on a charge, which is 2d6. That's okay, and you can use it when you are desperate, or when archery isn't working (in the hurricane, for example).

9) Buy a few alchemical items. Tanglefoot bags are especially good, halflings won't miss often with those, and they are effective even when the enemy makes a save.
paigeoliver
11-06-06, 06:23 PM This really comes down to how she wants to play and what will be fun for her. She wants to ride around on a doggy and shoot at things, so focus on that.

Halfling archers can be pretty good. Her str is terrible, but at least she can hit decently.

I'd suggest immediately investing the next 4 levels into fighter. And working up to weapon specialization, but NOT with a crossbow, do it with a composite longbow. Go back to rogue afterwards to get the trapfinding or forget about it altogether and embrace a new existence as a fighter.

The dog doesn't need to be an animal companion. I play a mounted halfling archer with an XP penalty and I have only lost a couple dogs in what would have been 9 levels for a character without an XP penalty. Making the dog an animal companion isn't going to help an archer, since it will just be sitting underneath her moving her around and not attacking. In fact it will hurt her, since it will be just as fragile as an animal companion and would cost her dearly to make it one.

Weapon focus, rapid shot and weapon specialization from those fighter bonus feats. If she takes mounted combat and has a maxed out ride then the dog won't need armor. I wasted money armoring my dog and it turns out that my MINIMUM mounted combat ride check gives it a better AC than that.
Mommy was an Orc
11-06-06, 06:49 PM It sounds like you have a regular group. Who are the other players in the group?

Something to consider is whether or not someone in the group can give her concealment, such as via Leomund's Tiny Hut or Improved Invisibility, allowing to get off a lot of sneak attacks. That will really improved the value of her archery.

If true, I'd pick up 2 levels of Ranger for Rapid Shot/Track/Favored Enemy(Undead), then go to Rogue 13.
trollbill
11-07-06, 10:20 AM She plays with a semi-regular group. We have around 2 dozen players in the local LG group, or which less than half have characters around her level. Right now, the APL6 crowd consists of:

Fighter 4
Swashbuckler 5
Fighter 2/Rogue 2
Cleric 5
Rogue 5
Rogue 5
Rogue 3/Wizard 5 (has invisibility, but mostly uses it on herself)
Sorcerer 6 (does have grease, glitterdust and haste partly because of the large number of rogues, but the large number of rogues also means he doesn't usually play with the same ones all the time)
Warmage 4
Ranger 4 (archer-based)

But recently she started attending non-local events and her combat weaknesses are becoming more apparent.

Looks like the mounted archer route probably is best. I double checked her character's stats. They're actually:

ST: 12
DX: 19 (with Gauntlets of Dexterity +2)
CN: 14
IN: 12
WS: 10
CH: 12

So she could use a strength adjusted long composite bow. She could also put points into UMD to give her greater access to items that would allow her to go invisible.

So right now I'm thinking:

6th - Ranger (Mounted Combat, Track, Favored Enemy - Undead)
7th - Ranger (Rapid Shot)
8th-16th - Rogue (or 1 level of Beastmaster if she really wants it)
paigeoliver
11-07-06, 05:21 PM Does she already have point blank and precise?

Also, her stats are pretty close to my halfling archer. My biggest suggestion is that you need to get that MINIMUM damage up somehow. As that build stands there are a lot of things that it is incapable of damaging. I got my minimum damage up by getting my STR up, taking weapon specialization and buying a +2 bow. Her damage with a +1 bow is only 1d6+2. Useless against even DR 5 and archer rogues don't get a fraction of the sneak attacks of melee rogues.

She is never going to get many sneak attacks as an archer rogue, so I suggest a minimal number of future rogue levels, 3 more of them spread out evenly, just enough to keep her trapfinding and disabling up to par. Everything else would be optimally placed in full BAB classes and either weapon specialization or a prestige class to up damage would be really helpful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 11-06-06, 02:36 PM	My 12-year-old daughter has been playing a skill-based Halfling Rogue in LG. Her typical actions in combat were to fire here crossbow for the sneak attack, then ride into battle on her riding dog. This worked at low level, but she's up to 5th and closing on 6th now and the riding dog is no longer the tough creature it used to be. So being a 12-year-old she has naturally taken to combat stratagies that protect the dog, mostly riding around and shooting with her crossbow. Needless to say, this isn't very effective at this level after the initial sneak attack. She doesn't want to get rid of the dog, but she doesn't want it to die either, so I am trying to find a way of making her more effective in combat (cause sometimes we really need her to be). She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following: 6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal) 7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead) 8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow]) 9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available) 10th-16th Rogue The Weapon Finesse would allow her to hit consistantly in melee after her initial sneak attack shot. Swashbuckler and Ranger give her some useful fighting abilities without costing her too much in the way of skills. The beastmaster gives her an addiquate mount. Add in mounted combat and it should keep the dog alive most of the time. Hopefully improving her combat ability will mean the monsters will see her as the threat, not the dog, and attack her until she gets up to 9th, but it will still be vulneralbe to AoE attackes until then. The only faster route I see for her on this would be: 6th - Druid (Skill Focus - Handle Animal) 7th - Beastmaster But she'd be giving up a lot of personal combat ability to do this. Any other suggestions?
JamesMaissen 11-06-06, 02:54 PM	She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following: 6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal) 7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead) 8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow]) 9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available) 10th-16th Rogue Any other suggestions? Its always tough to change midstreams. You may wish to have her try to use the dog as a poorman's spring attack using reach weapons for melee, and rely upon alchemical items (via quickdraw) for missle fire. I would not dip out of rogue more than 2 levels (and thus 1d6 sneak down). But I would see what she is looking the character to do and how she would have fun with it, etc. THEN make choices and take that in mind when you do, as panick'd I have to fix this choices lead to more mistakes and thus more panic. Also try the lgchardiscussion board for suggestions once you get the full sense of what she wants to do and what she's not happy with. -James
Howie23 11-06-06, 03:35 PM	She has a 19 Dex and 10 Str, and Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. I was thinking of the following: 6th - Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus - Handle Animal) 7th - Ranger (Track, Favored Enemy - Undead) 8th - Ranger (Either Two-Weapon fighting or Rapid-Shot [with a C. Longbow]) 9th - Beastmaster (Mounted Combat or Natural Bond if available) 10th-16th Rogue The only faster route I see for her on this would be: 6th - Druid (Skill Focus - Handle Animal) 7th - Beastmaster At APL10, an animal companion at effective druid 4 or 5 (assuming no NatBond) is going to be no more effective than the unmodified dog is now at APL6. She's focused on archery now...keep at it. She either needs to find ways to get more sneaks (invisibility, grease, stun, etc), more attacks (BAB, rapid shot, haste), or bigger damage on the attacks (sonic weapon, flame arrow, bow enchantments), or all of the above. Mounted Combat/Archery will help protect the dog, too, via Ride checks and more effective Parthian Shot tactics (ride in, shoot full round, ride out). I'd look at a couple of levels of Ftr or Rgr, depending on preference, in order to pick up Rapid Shot and maybe another combat effective feat. I'd go with ranger in order to get the Ride skill up. Ride is c.c. for rogue, and fighter doesn't give much in skills. If she does go the animal companion route...check her H.A. skill, as there's a good chance that a single level of druid won't give the skill points to get both Survival 4 ranks and Handle Animal 8 ranks, as any H.A. she has right now has been cross class. David
UMiskatonic 11-06-06, 04:28 PM	Ok, I can see a lot of ways around this. 1) I agree with the above, stick with archery. When multiple attacks are available (haste, Bab +6) a crossbow is a liability. Either she'll need the rapid reload feat, a reloading crossbow, or a longbow. I recommend the third with all my power. 1b) That longbow should be as cool as you can make it. Elemental damage is very good to have, as is holy. Be able to get past DR with cold iron, silver, adamantine arrows and oil of bless weapon. I'd expect an archer to spend about half of her total wealth on one good bow and a bunch of arrows. You shouldn't need defense much, cuz you can always ride away, and you shouldn't ever be close to anybody. 2) Swashbuckler doesn't help. Weapon Finesse is for melee, the exact opposite of what an archer should be doing. 3) I recommend taking levels of ranger. It's good for skills, has ride and handle animal for class skills, and gives track, which is something that she should have anyway. With rapid shot, she'll have three attacks a round at 8th level (rogue 5/ranger 3 or rogue 6/ranger 2). That's solid even without sneak attack. 4) You -did- buy barding for the dog already, right? It turns out dogs can wear amulets as well, if you have cash to spare. 5) Ride something else. It could be an animal companion, which you've already looked at. You could take the paladin-rogue feat and get a special mount. You could buy a bronze griffon or a carpet of flying. You could take the leadership feat, and get a dog cohort. If your Triad doesn't allow some kind of special dog cohort, take a druid, have it turn into a dog, and then ride it around. 6) Take levels of halfling outrider. It's MEANT for a dog-riding halfling. 7) Mounted combat allows you to negate attacks on the dog with a ride check. A skill-based halfling should be able to get something impressive, especially with a 19 Dex. 8) Buy a lance. It's double damage on a charge, which is 2d6. That's okay, and you can use it when you are desperate, or when archery isn't working (in the hurricane, for example). 9) Buy a few alchemical items. Tanglefoot bags are especially good, halflings won't miss often with those, and they are effective even when the enemy makes a save.
paigeoliver 11-06-06, 06:23 PM	This really comes down to how she wants to play and what will be fun for her. She wants to ride around on a doggy and shoot at things, so focus on that. Halfling archers can be pretty good. Her str is terrible, but at least she can hit decently. I'd suggest immediately investing the next 4 levels into fighter. And working up to weapon specialization, but NOT with a crossbow, do it with a composite longbow. Go back to rogue afterwards to get the trapfinding or forget about it altogether and embrace a new existence as a fighter. The dog doesn't need to be an animal companion. I play a mounted halfling archer with an XP penalty and I have only lost a couple dogs in what would have been 9 levels for a character without an XP penalty. Making the dog an animal companion isn't going to help an archer, since it will just be sitting underneath her moving her around and not attacking. In fact it will hurt her, since it will be just as fragile as an animal companion and would cost her dearly to make it one. Weapon focus, rapid shot and weapon specialization from those fighter bonus feats. If she takes mounted combat and has a maxed out ride then the dog won't need armor. I wasted money armoring my dog and it turns out that my MINIMUM mounted combat ride check gives it a better AC than that.
Mommy was an Orc 11-06-06, 06:49 PM	It sounds like you have a regular group. Who are the other players in the group? Something to consider is whether or not someone in the group can give her concealment, such as via Leomund's Tiny Hut or Improved Invisibility, allowing to get off a lot of sneak attacks. That will really improved the value of her archery. If true, I'd pick up 2 levels of Ranger for Rapid Shot/Track/Favored Enemy(Undead), then go to Rogue 13.
trollbill 11-07-06, 10:20 AM	She plays with a semi-regular group. We have around 2 dozen players in the local LG group, or which less than half have characters around her level. Right now, the APL6 crowd consists of: Fighter 4 Swashbuckler 5 Fighter 2/Rogue 2 Cleric 5 Rogue 5 Rogue 5 Rogue 3/Wizard 5 (has invisibility, but mostly uses it on herself) Sorcerer 6 (does have grease, glitterdust and haste partly because of the large number of rogues, but the large number of rogues also means he doesn't usually play with the same ones all the time) Warmage 4 Ranger 4 (archer-based) But recently she started attending non-local events and her combat weaknesses are becoming more apparent. Looks like the mounted archer route probably is best. I double checked her character's stats. They're actually: ST: 12 DX: 19 (with Gauntlets of Dexterity +2) CN: 14 IN: 12 WS: 10 CH: 12 So she could use a strength adjusted long composite bow. She could also put points into UMD to give her greater access to items that would allow her to go invisible. So right now I'm thinking: 6th - Ranger (Mounted Combat, Track, Favored Enemy - Undead) 7th - Ranger (Rapid Shot) 8th-16th - Rogue (or 1 level of Beastmaster if she really wants it)
paigeoliver 11-07-06, 05:21 PM	Does she already have point blank and precise? Also, her stats are pretty close to my halfling archer. My biggest suggestion is that you need to get that MINIMUM damage up somehow. As that build stands there are a lot of things that it is incapable of damaging. I got my minimum damage up by getting my STR up, taking weapon specialization and buying a +2 bow. Her damage with a +1 bow is only 1d6+2. Useless against even DR 5 and archer rogues don't get a fraction of the sneak attacks of melee rogues. She is never going to get many sneak attacks as an archer rogue, so I suggest a minimal number of future rogue levels, 3 more of them spread out evenly, just enough to keep her trapfinding and disabling up to par. Everything else would be optimally placed in full BAB classes and either weapon specialization or a prestige class to up damage would be really helpful.