Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timlagor 04-23-08, 12:41 PM	I have access to one of almost any spell from Frostburn (no Shivering Touch fortunately). The character is a 6th level Cleric-Tank so my Save DCs are low and my combat actions are generally buff+melee. I also don't see much use for the cold-only lspells in my Greyhawk Ruins career. Freeze Armour is temting but there are a lot of nice level 4 spells already and enemies are likely to save ..so I'm probably looking at one of the Conjure Ice Beast spells but which one? ..and should I ever actually prepare it anyway? The template looks pretty nice but I'm not a summoner and there are plenty of good Open spells. If I'm not going to use it, should I pick one of the cold-only ones for those rare occasions when I do know I'm in a cold zone. ...or did I miss something good? I am expecting to reach at least 11th level with this character* so taking a 5th or even 6th level spell would not be unreasonable. * playing CGR, Sinister Spire, Yuan Ti and Ruins of Greyhawk along with whatever else comes along (possibly Demonweb and/or Dragondown).
_metz_ 04-23-08, 09:49 PM	I know the PC is low level, but Conjure Ice Beast VII is awesome...
dkay807 04-24-08, 12:08 AM	Ice Slick (level 1 spell) is arguably better than Grease. There's no save... it forces Balance checks even when the spell is cast. Check it out.
Timlagor 04-24-08, 10:56 AM	Why Ice Beast 7? -I don't mind picking a high level spell since I already have plenty of good options I did see Ice Slick but I really want to be in melee and I can't stand on it myself. I don't see it being a better action than buffing/swinging very often. [it also doesn't mention the DC for the balance checks but I suppose that's not terribly important]
dkay807 04-24-08, 04:38 PM	Why Ice Beast 7? -I don't mind picking a high level spell since I already have plenty of good options I did see Ice Slick but I really want to be in melee and I can't stand on it myself. I don't see it being a better action than buffing/swinging very often. [it also doesn't mention the DC for the balance checks but I suppose that's not terribly important] Truth be told, I didn't read your post very carefully. I didn't realize you were a buff + melee cleric. I don't really think there are many amazing options for you. Here's my logic behind why I think Ice Slick is still a damn good spell to take: Your spell slots are extremely valuable as a cleric. You're probably already wrestling with which spells you have to "leave out" for the day of each level except 1, 5 and MAYBE 3 (I don't know how many vestments you cast or how many pearls you have). 5 is also pretty important for you since you likely cast Righteous Might and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. With that said, why bother gaining access to a spell that you probably wouldn't prepare 95% of the time anyway? It might seem cool, but it's not going to be more important than one of the already amazing 2nd, 4th and 6th level cleric spells. 1s are pretty useless - you have the most of them, and you probably only really need a Prot. Evil or two, Resurgence (or 5), and Remove Fear if you're not at Heroes' Feast level yet? You might actually Divine Favor yourself, I don't know. In any case, you have a few slots available to fit in an Ice Slick. What's great about Ice Slick is you can find numerous helpful uses for it in those situations where you're not up bashing things. Sometimes, you need to make the Greater Stone Golem fall down to gain a tremendous combat advantage over it. In short, I'm not saying it's incredible, and I'm certainly not saying you'll make tremendous use out of it (maybe you will). I am saying that it's one of the only spells that you might actually prep, let alone cast.
Timlagor 04-24-08, 08:16 PM	Only 6th level so far. I currently prep something along the lines of: 1st level PoPx5 Enlarge Person* Divine Favour Lesser vigour Protection from Evil Resurgence 2nd Level PoPx2 Bull's Strength* (/Shatter ..or even another Enlarge) Close Wounds** Quick March** Lesser Restoration Silence 3rd Level PoP -awaiting access Magic Vestment* Prayer Invisibility Purge * Domain ** Unlisted Quick March is a Swift spell that gives all allies in a 20' burst +30' enhancement to land speed for one round (not capped like haste) which is superb for getting me into position but I hope not to need more than one in a combat. My ranged threat consists of Javelins and a Rod of Viscid Globs (tanglefoot 3x/day out to 100') which is not massive but hasn't been a problem as yet. I haven't cast Prayer much. Divine favour is nice if I'm kicking in the door or have a round on approach but I don't see myself casting Remove Fear often. Lesser Vigour is pretty much a fixture though -can't see myself dropping that unless there's a more dedicated healer in the party. Prot Evil is great though I see a Magic Circle becoming more common and it would be nice to have a slot for Insignia at some tables. Invisibility Purge is on the list because everyone should have a way to deal with Invisibility; if I need it then I need it. Can be dropped in the presence of enough arcanists. Any buff with a better than round/level duration is well worth a look for me(Resist Energy would be nice ...and maybe when I have Delay Death I can lose Close Wounds; but then Divine Power:-/) Sometimes other PCs will give a bit more slack to the list of course :) With the number of good Swift/Immediate spells I'm picking up I may well not take Quicken until 12th [Extra Smite being extremely good: PA, CWI and CA&A so far].
IXBN 04-28-08, 05:42 PM	Consider a Lvl at which your summoned beasty has a decent grapple check (is huge). So, what about Conjure Ice Beast IV?;)
Timlagor 04-28-08, 07:31 PM	I can't see myself ever using up a 4th level spell slot on Conjure Ice Beast -there are far too many strong 4th level spells.
_metz_ 04-28-08, 11:36 PM	I can't see myself ever using up a 4th level spell slot on Conjure Ice Beast -there are far too many strong 4th level spells. Play a cleric, understand our pain at the wealth of awesome that is 4th level and the distinct lack of slots we have...
magebeast 04-29-08, 12:09 AM	Play a cleric, understand our pain at the wealth of awesome that is 4th level and the distinct lack of slots we have... You mean sorcerer? It is indeed painful.
_metz_ 04-29-08, 12:30 AM	You mean sorcerer? It is indeed painful. Nope. I mean Cleric. Play a socreror and people only expect you to fireball and haste. Play a cleric and everyone wants: Freedom of Movement Death ward Recitation Restoration That doesn't leave many slots for Air Walk, Divine Power, etc. A sorceror is a character that can get away with being a lot more selfish at a table, as long as you give haste most people don't bother you. The other players deman stuff from clerics, often not in a nice way. (Which is NOT the way to ask my grumpy old dwarf for spells)
copperwyrmling 04-29-08, 01:21 AM	Nope. I mean Cleric. Play a socreror and people only expect you to fireball and haste. I think his point was that sorcerers have the same issue that L4 Spells = Win, and you can learn so very few of them - at least clerics have the option to fill their L5 slots with L4 spells ;) Believe me, as someone with a L15 cleric and a L15 sorcerer, I can sympathize with both of you ;) (L6 is the other amazing level for clerics: L7 and L8 look lacklustre in comparison, except for Holy Word and a few domain spells.) And you didn't even mention delay death :P
magebeast 04-29-08, 02:55 AM	I think his point was that sorcerers have the same issue that L4 Spells = Win, and you can learn so very few of them - at least clerics have the option to fill their L5 slots with L4 spells ;) Believe me, as someone with a L15 cleric and a L15 sorcerer, I can sympathize with both of you ;) (L6 is the other amazing level for clerics: L7 and L8 look lacklustre in comparison, except for Holy Word and a few domain spells.) And you didn't even mention delay death :P Yeah. Evards has turned out to be a lot less fun in practice, so I'm turning it in for Orb of Force, which I need for monsters with reflex saves and evasion. It'll still be dodgy till I hit 12 and can quicken a true strike if I need it.
_metz_ 04-29-08, 02:59 AM	I think his point was that sorcerers have the same issue that L4 Spells = Win, and you can learn so very few of them - at least clerics have the option to fill their L5 slots with L4 spells ;) Believe me, as someone with a L15 cleric and a L15 sorcerer, I can sympathize with both of you ;) (L6 is the other amazing level for clerics: L7 and L8 look lacklustre in comparison, except for Holy Word and a few domain spells.) And you didn't even mention delay death :P I knew I was forgetting one, lol It was so obvious I overlooked it. But yeah I can kinda sympathise with sorcerors in terms of they don't get many spells, but at least as a sorceror you don't have as much demand to have that 'utility' spell. Its odd how certain levels are so important. Na dfor the 5th level slot thing, yeah I do that A LOT. Especially with Recitation and the extend spell feat (now retrianed out of it though)
copperwyrmling 04-29-08, 12:13 PM	Yeah. Evards has turned out to be a lot less fun in practice, Blasphemy! :P so I'm turning it in for Orb of Force, which I need for monsters with reflex saves and evasion. Yeah, my L15 sorcerer took both - her L4 spells are Assay Spell Resistance, Evard's Black Tentacles, Orb of Force and Enervation. Another nice thing about Orb of Force is that it's medium range. But yeah I can kinda sympathise with sorcerors in terms of they don't get many spells, but at least as a sorceror you don't have as much demand to have that 'utility' spell. *nods* In a lot of places sorcerers probably benefit from lower expectations, and the fact that there's not really much you can do to change a sorc's spell selection at the table. Well, until they get Limited Wish, anyway... my sorc's been covering an awful lot of the utility magic at her tables recently via scrolls and LimWish. (She's used nine LimWishes in her past three mods - two of them were two-rounders, before people yell at me ;) - for Sending, Wall of Force, Undead Bane Weapon, Remove Fear, Make Whole, Magic Circle vs Evil, Daylight, Arcane Sight, and Cure Critical Wounds. She used a scroll plus a LimWish for Daylights in one mod, because we needed them and neither the wizard nor the cleric had them available either memorized or in scroll form.) That said, you will still get people who think you're doing it "wrong" if your sorcerer doesn't have (say) Mass Fly and Wall of Force as their first two L5 spells, but it's generally rather easier to ignore than players at the table trying to tell you how to play your cleric, at least in my experience ;)
solbergb 04-29-08, 12:33 PM	Yeah. My sorceress had neither fireball nor haste, and never packed them on scrolls either but after playing with her once, nobody seemed to mind because of what she DID bring to the table. With respect to invisibility purge...that is a spell that belongs on a scroll. As you say, when you need it, you need it. But most days you don't, and it works without respect to caster level or DC's etc. Perfect scroll spell.
solbergb 04-29-08, 12:34 PM	oh, and while you are at it pick up a scroll of daylight. The current crop of module authors seem overly enamored of the shadow blend trait.
Iswald 04-29-08, 12:37 PM	My cleric gained access to a limited number of spells from Frostburn and I ended up picking Boreal Wind. It has a save of fort negates and spell resistance applies. So, I don't usually prepare it. Taking Ice Slick does seem like a good idea unless you can already cast grease. It seems better to take a spell that you know you will be able to use now, and have fun with, than to select a spell that you may never be able to use.
IXBN 04-29-08, 03:09 PM	I can feel your pain. However, the spell "Conjure Ice Beast" is only really effective with huge beasts (grapple check!). That means 4th Lvl or higher. If this collides with the spells needed, forget it! 4th: Viper grapple +20 5th: Crocodile grapple +21 6th: Monstrous Centipide grapple +27
_metz_ 04-30-08, 12:20 AM	I can feel your pain. However, the spell "Conjure Ice Beast" is only really effective with huge beasts (grapple check!). That means 4th Lvl or higher. If this collides with the spells needed, forget it! 4th: Viper grapple +20 5th: Crocodile grapple +21 6th: Monstrous Centipide grapple +27 Elder Earth Elemental: +37 modifier coupled with engulf...
copperwyrmling 04-30-08, 01:55 AM	With respect to invisibility purge...that is a spell that belongs on a scroll. As you say, when you need it, you need it. But most days you don't, and it works without respect to caster level or DC's etc. Perfect scroll spell. Not quite - the radius is CL-dependent, and can be important. Yolande tends to prep it just because an 80ft radius Invis Purge is a LOT more useful than the 25ft radius version (but she's L15 and doesn't have a huge issue with L3 spellslot crunch any more).
JamesMaissen 05-02-08, 06:26 PM	I have access to one of almost any spell from Frostburn (no Shivering Touch fortunately). I will agree with the crowd that Ice slick and conjure ice beast are the top contenders. Likewise for conjure ice beast you need to pick the one that corresponds to the level that you don't have too much bleed for.. 7 is the best in that regard. Next I believe would be 5... getting 4 dire wolves isn't bad at 9th level.. they accomplish a decent amount when you get them and take up space even after that. If you don't know what a bard is and boots of speed are things that other people see then between righteous wrath and might the level 5 slots might not look all that free. Though in general you won't get all that much time to do all of them anyway.. but if the pull on level 5s is also there for you then ice slick can pull yeoman duty and also be brought to bear now. -James
katrick 05-02-08, 10:59 PM	played it 12 mths ago and still haven't picked one yet. i really like dispel fire, just can't see me memorizing it, cant'find the book but i circled frostbite for some reason?? katrick
Timlagor 05-07-08, 11:14 AM	Frostbite: Fort Half on 2d6 Dex damage (+6d6 cold) against multiple targets.. a good spell for otherwise empty 5th level slots. Actually it might even be worth taking for me; I hadn't noticed it was only Fort for half rather than negates.
kinevon 05-07-08, 04:49 PM	Frostbite: Fort Half on 2d6 Dex damage (+6d6 cold) against multiple targets.. a good spell for otherwise empty 5th level slots. Actually it might even be worth taking for me; I hadn't noticed it was only Fort for half rather than negates. Just watch out for opponents/targets with things like the Pious Templar Mettle ability, which would make it Fort negates....
_metz_ 05-07-08, 11:12 PM	Just watch out for opponents/targets with things like the Pious Templar Mettle ability, which would make it Fort negates.... Mettle exists on Hexblades and Pious Templars only. Both of which, IF I am fighting - I am laughing. BEcuase Hexblades suck and Pious Templars have too high a CR for their abilities to trouble a party at any decent APL.
ThaiGQ 05-21-08, 08:32 AM	My vote's on Conjure Ice Beast. The "cleric" (and I use the term loosely...she's more like a whirlwind of death) in our local gaming group has broken at LEAST two encounters with that spell. So far she's only used it to summon four large-sized Ice Beast Dire Wolves (mainly because the player hasn't created the stats for something different), but that's been enough to break APL 8 - 10 encounters.
JamesMaissen 05-21-08, 07:55 PM	My vote's on Conjure Ice Beast. The "cleric" (and I use the term loosely...she's more like a whirlwind of death) in our local gaming group has broken at LEAST two encounters with that spell. So far she's only used it to summon four large-sized Ice Beast Dire Wolves (mainly because the player hasn't created the stats for something different), but that's been enough to break APL 8 - 10 encounters. On the conjure 5 list the dire wolves is one of the best options. The others include the giant crocs and constrictor snake. This gives you 4 large, 2 huge or 1 huge respectively. If you go to the conjure 7 list then the choices increase though baring size, number or locomotion factors the earth elemental seems a good choice.. especially for the engulf. Summon one, bull strength it and then let it swallow the enemies that can't make a REF save in the 30s. -James
Timlagor 05-22-08, 10:46 AM	I've tentatively decided to take Conjure 7 when/if I finally get there (I definitely expect to play at 11th level but maybe not 13).